"boy, am i glad i don't need any help with Poser ( 'cos i don't use it )."

then I have to ask... why are you posting in a poser forum.....?

Who can't handle a little grump every now and then? When it comes right down to it, we're all a bit grumpy here in this Poser forum. I think it's a prerequisite...

I'll be damned if I feel like a great big grin everyday...lol. Believe me folks, bb is tame...lol.

Laurie

 Well some just don't deal well with stupid people. And of course, stupidity is not an absolute term. No people are omniscient. Some are close, but it is iimpossible to be good at everything in this world. Some know their way around computers, some can build a house, farm the land or repair a car. Each is a skill and I don't think there's anybody who can be good at all.

Same with Poser. Some people are incredible artists without knowing a single thing about HOW Poser does what. They have just learned, by expirience, which buttons to press so they acquire their results. Others know all about which buttons to push and levers to pull, but couldn't make art to save their life.

Each have their merit, and each are valuable members of the Poser society.

And to say some are overall better than others is rubbish. It's a symbiosis. The people who grok poser's inner functions needs USERS  - otherwise it would be meaningless to make the program at all. And those who like to make pretty pictures need someone to ask when something doesn't work as expected. There's no fun in knowing everything if no one bothers to ask you.

FWIW I enjoy BBs replies. Sometimes with an ill-hidden "now let's see the daily snark"-glee, most times for some genuine information. Often I don't undestand more than a fraction of it. My brain grinds to a halt every time it sees something even remotely related to math. But I still enjoy reading it, and trying out things. I'm very much a "hands on" kind of person with Poser. REading doens't work here, I  have to poke and prod and turn the dials to see what it does. Somewhat ineffective, but at least I'm having fund while I'm doing it :)

Thanks for the support, people, but this is devolving into precisely the kind of stupid discussion that makes me snarky.

Yes I have an ego, but it doesn't get in the way of me helping people. What gets in the way of me helping is when somebody interferes with the free flow of accurate information, backed by facts, experiments, and evidence. Then, I pounce. Don't make stupid speculations, or I'll call you a dumbass, like when I beat the snot out of aeilkema a couple weeks ago, who is now my friend after all, because lately he's simply been stating his problems, instead of snarking about how I and SM caused them because we made stupid choices.

Don't say that Poser sux after you show me you don't know how to use it, or I'll beat you over the head. Just say you don't know how to get something done and I'll help.

Don't tell people to do things with Poser that are directly in contradiction to a point I'm making of which I'm absolutely certain, or I'll pound the snot out of you. Like all the times I explain that Poser's neutral displacement value is 0, i.e. black, and then somebody else opines that the neutral displacement value is 50% gray. I will eat your liver.

Here's a thread where everything is going fine, the way it's supposed to:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2781580

Sure, I make a couple of abrupt pronouncements. "No AO with pointlights". You wanna argue with me, you'll have to back your position up with evidence about why you're right, or discuss the situation that maybe I had not thought of or encountered before. But be prepared to be wrong, because there aren't many Poser situations I haven't already seen a hundred times.

Quote - "boy, am i glad i don't need any help with Poser ( 'cos i don't use it )."

then I have to ask... why are you posting in a poser forum.....?

I second that question. :)

And I've seen plenty of non-helpful, condescending people in other 3D forums, but rarely in here.
And BB has never been unhelpful to anyone who asked his advice with shaders, at least not that I've seen.

Hmmm, in order to get to where some people in this forum are today (in CG knowledge), it would take me at least 29 years, plus the difference in my intelligence, educational background, and talent. I cannot even begin to turn that into a formula so that I could calculate a time line. Or, I can read the threads, look up what I can for myself, and ask questions (most but not all of which are answered).

I am keenly aware of what I do not know, and I appreciate all the information and help from everyone no matter how peevishly it is offered. Any day of the week I will take a right answer over a pleasantly offered one. I really do want to learn more, even though I can only absorb so much at a time.

I have a full time job that interferes with my Poser time, and I have to deal with administrators, eleven full-time and one part-time MD, and their nurses every work day. I have four formal degrees, and had to sit through the class time under professors/instructors to earn them. My ego was long ago ground to dust and blown away in gales of pontification. I can take more abuse than anybody here can launch, especially, if there is the benefit of knowledge.

Poser is just a hobby for me, and I have no aspirations of doing professional CG. Poser is fun. I enjoy using this application, and learning more about it. I like reading in these forums even when some of the threads turn disagreeable or boringly empty. I have a need to enjoy myself and I am intent upon doing so.

If people do not use Poser, do not want to use Poser, and do not like Poser, why are they reading in these forums, and complaining about the temperament of the discussions? If you don’t like some of the people who post, don’t read their replies. If a thread is irritating or disturbing, don’t read it. But, unless someone can give better answers than the diverse, experienced, and knowledgeable people who populate this forum, don’t chase them off and deprive others (me) of this resource.

I am now turning on my flame shields,

lmk

He's never failed to give me an answer when I've asked nor failed to show me when I'm being an idiot either...lmao. At least he explains why he thinks I'm an idiot ;o). Conversely, he's been there to say "hey, you did something right" as well.

So all in all, maybe you have to root through things you don't really like so much to get the the nuts and bolts of what he's telling you, but the information, if you understand it, is priceless if you need to know what you're doing. If you don't need to know, don't read. No harm, no foul.

And as an aside...if you're really that thin-skinned, maybe it would be better to just avoid the Poser forum altogether...lol.

Laurie

*Obviously, MIT grads got to where they are because they are intellectually superior and/or had the drive that others didn't. 

*Wow. Thus spoke Zarathustra.

"To all the gurus here that post everywhere and assume that everyone else knows nothing- great you are poser masters, but you assume that everyone else is stupid and you are all knowing, this is your downfall, and makes for a hostile environment here.  Why do you do this?"

When I first started using Poser 4 and registered here at Renderosity I was amazed at the help you could get from the forums and I posted quite often. This thread  reflects perfectly why I stopped following the forums. People bitching and complaining without doing any of the work themselves. But to critisize the people who offer probably the most experience and insight to how Poser works....?! That's HOSTILE (yes, indeed that was a shout.) Sounds to me like you've got a case of the envies...;)

But in an effort to pull this thread towards something more constructive I'd like to touch on something MikeJ said earlier:

"This is why so many people have so much trouble with shaders and now, with GI too. There is no one size fits all, there is no easy way. There are no light sets, backdrops, cameras, shaders, textures, or anything else that will guarantee a perfect scene. Not just Poser, but the same goes for all 3D apps.
And a lot of times, presets won't even get you close to what you want."

This is the most important lesson a Poser user needs to learn. They should print it on the cover of the Poser manual and put it on big street signs all over the Poser universe. It took me a long time to learn and until just recently I was hunting for that "perfect" light set that would fit every scene. It doesn't exist.

I can name you real world example as to why that is. A few years ago I got the job of photographing commercial products (pens & such) at work and I had no experience in photography nor did my boss. His idea was to find the perfect light setup that would make the background completely white so I could just mask out the subject with the magic wand in Photoshop. Sounds great, right? Well after I had adjusted the lights and the camera settings I was succesful!! I had photographed a black pen on a clear white background and masked it out with a few clicks of the magic wand!  Fantastic!!  Next I took a royal blue mint box, placed it on the white background, zoomed out a little bit and SNAP! Everything was grey. I didn't change the camera settings or move the lights an inch. But because the subject had a different material, color and size and because I zoomed out a little bit the light environment for the lens had changed so I pretty much had to start all over again.

I´m no expert on Poser materials and lights and I know less about photography but that's just how things are. If you're not going to take the time to at least try to understand how things work and be willing to put some time and effort into what you're doing you're not going to get the results you want.

As for the original post in this thread; If you're looking to do hi rez professional work maybe you should consider a more professional software. It would cost more but if you're doing things on a professional level it might be a good investment.

nothing wrong with MIT, mind ye.
the CalTech of the East, or so they say :lol:

Quote - nothing wrong with MIT, mind ye.
the CalTech of the East, or so they say :lol:

I am sorry but there is something seriously wrong with MIT, if the students come out thinking that they are intellectually superior beings . And that's without even reading a single paragraph of Friedrich Nietzsche.

Why do you assume MIT students don't read Friedrich Nietzsche? 

They don't come out that way - they go in that way. You can't get in unless you already believe you can tear the world apart and re-build it however you like.

 And, not all intellectuals put all that much stock in Nietzsche.  You might, personally.  That doesn't mean everyone does.

edit  Obviously written a while ago, and just decided that now was a good time to hit "post".

Yes but this talk of Nietzsche is irrelevant. I never said I was an ubermensch. I said

Quote - I also know that when I'm dealing with an ungrateful bastard who is my intellectual inferior, I talk nice for maybe two posts, but if the person aggravates me, I turn ugly. Deal with it.

I'm wondering if I'm in the same situation I refer to there, right now.

Peelo, here's an analogy.

A man who is 5 feet 10 inches tall and an expert basketball player is approached by a 4 foot boy who barely knows the game, and challenged. They play for a while, and in 10 minutes the man has 100 points to the boy's zero. The man says, look this isn't much fun, can we stop. The boy says, no, you'll make a mistake - keep going. After another 10 minutes, it's 200 to 0 and the man says I'm done playing with you. The boy cries that this isn't fair and the man is not polite.

A croud has gathered, and from the sidelines, Peelo shouts "He thinks he's a giant. He's no giant."  Riiiiight.
 

guys its an internet forum. we are here talking about a 3D software. we dont know each other.
if someone tells me that i am a dumb ugly motherf..... i will not be insulted.

it was explained months ago that Poser is created for the people who post in the gallery. it makes sense. there are not a lot of people who would want SSS but more wanted IDL. the software should always be created for the people who are using it. if only 3 users want particles then they wont have it. Poser is not expensive and its has Firefly as the render. i am suprised that we even have IDL with firefly.

i tryed a lot of times to import big files with big buildings and cars and it works. but it can not render it out with good settings in a normal time. its again Poser. IMO the focus should be on humans. its nice that we can use different materials on humans like reflection and clothes.

but dont be mad if a mountain,watter,3 figures,hair dont render under 12 hours. the software is not designed for this. if you want it then try out Blender thats free. the new version is supposed to have even some real smoke. or maybe 3DS-max. i heard that the version 9 is still pretty good.

Who said Poser doesn't challenge the mind and intellect?

 :biggrin:

> Quote - guys its an internet forum. we are here talking about a 3D software. we dont know each other. > if someone tells me you are a dumb ugly motherf..... i will not be insulted. > > it was explained months ago that Poser is created for the people who post in the gallery. it makes sense. there are not a lot of people who would want SSS but more wanted IDL. the software should always be created for the peopel who are using it. if only 3 user want particles then they wont have it. Poser is not expensive and its has Firefly as the render. i am suprised that we even have IDL with firefly. > > i tryed a lot of times to import big files with big buildings and cars and it works. but it can not render it out with good settings in a normal time. its again Poser. IMO the focus should be on humans. its nice that we can use different materials on humans like reflection and clothes. > > but dont be mad if a mountain,watter,3 figures,hair dont render under 12 hours. the software is not designed for this. if you want it then try out Blender thats free. the new version is supposed to have even some real smoke. or maybe 3DS-max. i heard that the version 9 is still pretty good.

I guess we do differ on that. What Poser initially was and what it has become are two different things. By now Poser is designed to render a mountain,water,3 figures,hair and clothes. It is very capable of doing so. The scene shown renders in less then an hour, render settings on final, render size 2000x1200. Poser can handle it easily.

I've done scenes way bigger then this. A city,  (Stonemason's Urban Sprawl), 4 fully cothed figures with a number of props, sky and 4 detailed vehicles. Render size 2000+ and render settings on final. No sweat...... 45 minutes later all done. Or take the example, I guess you can count how much stuff is in it. Rendered in 55 minutes, scaled down to attach to this message.

If you're machine is up to it, Poser can handle it, easily. Poser can handle a lot, an amazing lot and it can render in very normal and acceptable times on a Core2Duo. The only thing Poser can't handle at the moment is IDL, it may be a bridge too far for Poser, but going by what BB's experiences are with SR1, it may not be anymore.

Just check out some of SM's promo images, they're way beyond what I'm trying to achieve.

you can render this out?  with complicated realistic shaders?
because pople just connect teh texture in the diffuse and they set the DM shadows to 256.
yeah it will render out very fast.
but with reflections,glass,raytraced shadows blur 10,AO,skin shaders,..... it will not be fast . thats a fact.

I agree that an IDL render has to be slower than without IDL, ice-boy.

I don't think aeilkema is arguing it should be the same speed.

Aeilkema is making a quantitative argument, and, ice-boy, you're answering as if he made a qualitative argument.

Break it down. I'm going to make several test statements, and I bet both of you disagree with the first and the last.

1. IDL can and should render at the same speed as without it.

2. IDL cannot render at the same speed as without it, but IDL should be about 10% more render time.

3) IDL should be about 50% extra render time.

4) IDL should be about 100% extra render time.

5) IDL should be about 1000% extra render time.

6) IDL should be about infinite extra render time.

Everybody with me? 1 and 6 are wrong. (No caps, not shouting, see?) Anybody who thinks otherwise, stand over here and I'll hit you with tomatoes.

Now somewhere in the middle things become believable. But where exactly?

The released version of Poser is like #5. It takes 10 times longer. I think it should not. SR1 behaves like #3 or #4 most of the time. That's where I think it should be.

Yep, what BB said :-)

Of course IDL is slower, we all wish it wouldn't be, but that's wishfull thinking. If it can be brought down from the 1000% extra to 100% extra, then I'm very happy and that is very acceptable indeed. I've got no problem with waiting a couple of hours if you know that the results will be great.

SR1 start to sound good to me!

Quote -
SR1 behaves like #3 or #4 most of the time. That's where I think it should be.

FWIW, I'd say you're probably about right, assuming that you're comparing it to the same scene with raytracing, but not GI.
From what I've seen in other apps, that would be more or less in line for a decent quality Final Gather interpolated GI render, compared to its raytraced, non-GI version.

Quote - I agree that an IDL render has to be slower than without IDL, ice-boy.

I don't think aeilkema is arguing it should be the same speed.

Aeilkema is making a quantitative argument, and, ice-boy, you're answering as if he made a qualitative argument.

Break it down. I'm going to make several test statements, and I bet both of you disagree with the first and the last.

1. IDL can and should render at the same speed as without it.

2. IDL cannot render at the same speed as without it, but IDL should be about 10% more render time.

3) IDL should be about 50% extra render time.

4) IDL should be about 100% extra render time.

5) IDL should be about 1000% extra render time.

6) IDL should be about infinite extra render time.

Everybody with me? 1 and 6 are wrong. (No caps, not shouting, see?) Anybody who thinks otherwise, stand over here and I'll hit you with tomatoes.

Now somewhere in the middle things become believable. But where exactly?

The released version of Poser is like #5. It takes 10 times longer. I think it should not. SR1 behaves like #3 or #4 most of the time. That's where I think it should be.

he said that renders can be done in a normal time. i am saying that is only possible without reflections,refractions,AO and complex shaders.when you have all of this then it gets harder and longer.
and a lot of people just load the props and those have a lot of times just the texture plugged in teh diffuse slot.

I posted this also in another thread. 5 minutes to render!

Got to go on a trip. CU L8R

Quote - he said that renders can be done in a normal time. i am saying that is only possible without reflections,refractions,AO and complex shaders.when you have all of this then it gets harder and longer.
and a lot of people just load the props and those have a lot of times just the texture plugged in teh diffuse slot.

What 3D app doesn't have longer render time when doing reflections, refractions, AO and complex shaders. Have you tried Cinema 4D with Interposer Pro? Sure you can load up some props and figures and with simple shaders it renders fast. Even with IDL  But add more advanced features and render times go up. That's to be expected right? So why should Poser be any different?

My render above is using two spotlights with over-sampled soft ray-traced shadows, reflections on glass and metal, IDL, and my VSS skin shaders which are very complex.

Rendered in 5 minutes <<<<<

What 3D app renders IDL fast? Why, Poser of course.

Quote - My render above is using two spotlights with over-sampled soft ray-traced shadows, reflections on glass and metal, IDL, and my VSS skin shaders which are very complex.

Rendered in 5 minutes <<<<<

What 3D app renders IDL fast? Why, Poser of course.

Impressive! You said on another thread that speed would not be the main concern for SR1 but I´ll take it from your posts here that speed will improve somewhat with SR1...?

They didn't work on speed. They worked on making IDL operate better at lower sampling rates. The net effect is you can have better results with lower settings, and lower settings means faster.

Quote - They didn't work on speed. They worked on making IDL operate better at lower sampling rates. The net effect is you can have better results with lower settings, and lower settings means faster.

Makes sense, since most people using Poser would use such settings for rendering.

Quote - They didn't work on speed. They worked on making IDL operate better at lower sampling rates. The net effect is you can have better results with lower settings, and lower settings means faster.

That's good. My humble tests have all been on mid - low settings and I´m quite happy with the render speed. Will SR1 be ready shortly?

All I know is the original planned date is already behind us. New beta testers were added, and the testers are being super-aggressive. Work is going on every minute of every day. When the pie is done, then we will eat. ;-)

That's fine by me. I´ll continue testing with low settings and finding my groove with IDL and it's good to know that SR1 will make it all look better.

There is no normal time with GI renders.  It will vary greatly depending on what content is in the scene and how it is lit, and how render settings are configured.  The only safe bet is that it will always be significantly longer with Indirect Lighting/GI than without. Particularly when people don't really know what their content is - how many polygons, how it's modeled, how their lighting works (canned light sets) what materials settings are applied, or how their render settings are really set (canned render settings), there is just no way a lot of people will have the faintest idea of how long a render is going to take until they actually run it.

Quote - > Quote - he said that renders can be done in a normal time. i am saying that is only possible without reflections,refractions,AO and complex shaders.when you have all of this then it gets harder and longer.

and a lot of people just load the props and those have a lot of times just the texture plugged in teh diffuse slot.

What 3D app doesn't have longer render time when doing reflections, refractions, AO and complex shaders. Have you tried Cinema 4D with Interposer Pro? Sure you can load up some props and figures and with simple shaders it renders fast. Even with IDL  But add more advanced features and render times go up. That's to be expected right? So why should Poser be any different?

WT dude? 

i know that reflections will make renders longer.  i am saying that peopel dont use this.and they dont use raytraced shadows so they get fast renders. thats why

Quote - There is no normal time with GI renders.  It will vary greatly depending on what content is in the scene and how it is lit, and how render settings are configured.  The only safe bet is that it will always be significantly longer with Indirect Lighting/GI than without. Particularly when people don't really know what their content is - how many polygons, how it's modeled, how their lighting works (canned light sets) what materials settings are applied, or how their render settings are really set (canned render settings), there is just no way a lot of people will have the faintest idea of how long a render is going to take until they actually run it.

I accept that. Light bounces around differently based on it's surroundings. It might  take a long time for people who have no understanding of IDL to understand this though.

Most of the Poser 8 threads are extremely negative and that's not good. I was very unhappy with my first render attempts in Poser 8 and after reading through some of the threads I was ready to pack it in and even considered to ask for a refund. Turns out I was just lazy. I was using a scene that was saved in PPro and the materials in my scene were all bad for IDL. After making a new scene and adjusting the shaders it rendered way faster then PPro and I´m very happy with IDL. It's easy to get caught up in the bad vibe that's floating around this forum and I think it's taking away a lot of the enjoyment people could be having with P8.

Quote - WT dude? 

i know that reflections will make renders longer.  i am saying that peopel dont use this.and they dont use raytraced shadows so they get fast renders. thats why

Okay, I obviously missed your point completely and that's okay. Let's not dwell on it ;)

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - he said that renders can be done in a normal time. i am saying that is only possible without reflections,refractions,AO and complex shaders.when you have all of this then it gets harder and longer.

and a lot of people just load the props and those have a lot of times just the texture plugged in teh diffuse slot.

What 3D app doesn't have longer render time when doing reflections, refractions, AO and complex shaders. Have you tried Cinema 4D with Interposer Pro? Sure you can load up some props and figures and with simple shaders it renders fast. Even with IDL  But add more advanced features and render times go up. That's to be expected right? So why should Poser be any different?

WT dude? 

i know that reflections will make renders longer.  i am saying that peopel dont use this.and they dont use raytraced shadows so they get fast renders. thats why

I mainly use raytraced shadows and also reflection (if needed). Using raytraced shadows adds only little render time on my machine, but reflections add a lot more. I've done quite a lot of medieval scenes (and still do) and those always involve reflections, lot's of metal. I've noticed that a lot of vendors do not include 'real' metals in their content, they 'fake' it. Probably to make sure that renders will not take too long. I often change those materials, it sure adds to the rendering time, but nothing unacceptable really.

It's nothing like IDL as it is currently. Adding raytraced shadows and reflections never give me rendering times that I can't handle. They may double, but often not even that much. The rendering time increase is roughly 30-90%.

Quote - WT dude? 

i know that reflections will make renders longer.  i am saying that peopel dont use this.and they dont use raytraced shadows so they get fast renders. thats why

...hmmm. Okay maybe I´l dwell on this a little bit. What people are you talking about? People in general? Positively every Poser User? Some people that you know? Are you judging from the gallery here at Renderosity?  A lot of people don´t post to the gallery (god knows I haven't for a looong time) Is it perhaps that you don't like to use these things and are annoyed that other people are trying to use these things to Poser's best abilities? I'm just asking...

Quote -
What 3D app renders IDL fast? Why, Poser of course.

Good deal.
Now you can get them working on that interactive preview renderer and photon map disk caching. ;-)

** ENOUGH**

This has gone on too long.  I'm locking this thread.  What should have been an informative, and sometimes venting, thread has turned into bickering.  Enough is enough.

yes, for the curious, posts were deleted