SaintFox,
On the first revision I did, for the hi res Antonia, the teeth were separated. I did it the way I did it this time because it seemed to me this way would be easier to see what was going on, and I didn't think seams would be a problem.
Although yeah, I can change it where the teeth are all separated from the gums easily enough if that's what you guys want. :-)

Deciding how to unwrap that whole area took a good while and I went through several different versions before I settled on that. It wasn't an easy area to work with either, but now that it's all unwrapped, it would be easy enough to slice the teeth away from the gums (ouch!) and stitch the gums back on to the main inner mouth parts.

Of course, I'd also need Olaf to again do the transfer from the lo to the hi res version, so it might also be a good time for me to overlap the eyes into one set of UVs... again, if that's what y'all want. (Which I now think would be better anyway)

Y'all just let me know what you want and I'll be happy to oblige. :-)

BTW, I will start working on that and upload a screenshot to see what you guys think.
Since it's "just the inner mouth", I agree, a change  wouldn't affect the rest of it all.

Unfortunately I don't have a whole lot of time this weekend, so maybe you could put that part of the texture on hold for a few days?

No problem, I worked the whole night through and definitly need some sleep. And until you are finished with the teeth I have so much else I can texture - in fact the teeth can wait until I did all the other parts - so you have far more than a weekend. We are lucky as the inner mouth is not involved when fixing the other seams. They can wait until absolutely everything else is done. So please do not stress yourself, take any time you need!!

Olaf: This helps a bit, I already did such a template for me. But as the teeth and gums to not have lots of polygons even a slight amount of teet/gums in the wrong place looks pretty strange. Either like plaque or like parodontitis

1> This must be synchoronisity working...  you've all been talking about eyes and the first zip is a pose set for BlackHearted's BlackEyes :)

2> A set of around 50 hair-fits

3> A dynamic dress inspired by Lily Allen ;) with eight textures in the material room.

SF, your texture is looking good. :)

tlc, that drss is beautiful.

A, that is a nice looking texture.
I love that hair!

i like all the different textures we're working on. :) she's very versatile.

A_,
That looks great, really, and I'm especially glad you like the UVs. :-)
You too, Blue Echo!

BTW, A_, I haven't forgotten about the "Zbrush-friendly One Map" Antonia. I'm having a lot of problems with that, actually - more than I would have expected. I've spent a few days trying to convert my latest UVs to that "One Map" version, but there's something about that latest lo res Antonia OBJ file that is preventing UVLayout from transferring the UVs to the "actual" lo res Antonia.
And for the life of me I can't figure out why. The version I used was a special version Olaf gave me to use, with the edges hardened for easier SubD mapping, and somehow that's caused a problem where there was no problem before. I mean, I managed to use it to make the latest in that way, but later versions just aren't cooperating. Very strange, and it appears I have to completely redo it, although I was hoping to be able to use the same UVs, just all packed into 0-1 with no overlaps, to make texture conversion easier
However, if you'd like, I could upload a simple OBJ version, minus the part and material groups, if you wanted something to mess around with and to see if it's going to be something useful.

Meanwhile, now I have to fix the teeth situation and I have a serious time deficit until Tuesday or so, so the ZBrush thing has to go on hold. :-(

 What new espression morphs? What am I missing? 

There's no idea in me making them if they're already made :) 

Cool!! So there are already three textures to go with Antonia when she will be released to the public. V4 will be envy!!

The expression morphs... some are included in the JGL-morphs and some come with LaurieA's headmorphs (LAHeadMorNEW0828.zip). But one can never have too many expression morphs and other features!!!

And Mike: Please, as I said, we all can create other parts of the texture before we do the Inner Mouth - so please don't feel any pressure!!

is the new UVS the official now?
because I would like to make a texture for the old one

Great work, everyone! I'm looking forward to the new textures and other things.

Quote - is the new UVS the official now?
because I would like to make a texture for the old one

As I said before, I'll make the most popular one among texture makers the default. At the moment, it looks like that might be Mike's new one, but I'll wait until there's at least one complete usable texture before I declare a winner.

I won't abandon the other mapping, though. At the very least, I will include an extra set of cr2s. Preferably, we'd come up with a simple way to switch  the geometries whenever the user loads a material set made for the alternate mapping.

the new uvs looks very nice, however my vote goes for the old one as it looks more simple to me... it has less maps and good ratio between head and body parts. also I like lips not to be separated from the head skin
the only thoughts I have for the old one are:
I would prefer the mouth parts to be separate (as the map you posted) and as so the head to take over more space
also texturing of the neck seams difficult if you create a higher resolution head texture than the body/head ratio gives...
everything else covers my texturing preferences perfect!

Quote -
the new uvs looks very nice, however my vote goes for the old one as it looks more simple to me... it has less maps and good ratio between head and body parts. also I like lips not to be separated from the head skin

Actually, if you apply a UV checker to the whole thing at once, you'll see that the ratio in the UVs I made are overall more even. I've written several times why I've done it the way I have, and every reason is centered around the idea of making it more overall 3D-friendly as opposed to just Poser-friendly.

However, Olaf did an excellent job UVing the original, and I don't want to sound like I think otherwise. I just didn't like where the seams were, and a few other things.
He did, however, optimize it very well strictly for Poser usage.

I want to see people rendering Antonia in Mental Ray and Lightwave, and not abandoning the idea because, for example, Mental Ray or LW's render engines can't easily do proper SSS with the head mapping the way it was. WIthout a whole lot of guesswork, or maybe not at all. If you'd like a technical explanation of why that is so, I can explain it again, but I wrote about that a few pages back.
I also wanted a version more friendly for 3D painting in general, and certain things about the original mapping made that difficult.
And of course I also tried to make it Photoshop-friendly, for people applying real photos to the templates. Not being a Photoshop texture maker though, that part was more difficult in deciding what to do.
The lips? I dunno... I have mixed feelings about that too, and it sort of flies in the face of my head/SSS plans I mentioned above, but it is still workable, and after all, SSS back-scattering need not reach all the way from the back of the skull to the lips. A 3/4 or a profile view might cause a problem there though.
Most of the way I did it is based on what I was taught by a few professionals I've studied with recently and observations of how other pros have UVd similar figures. Most, not all, and they'd slap me silly for packing it all into 0-1 and overlapping. ;-)
But even though Poser does tiling UVs and can handle UVs laid out in regions, that could create problems for the average Poser user who might not know how to deal with UVs laid out that way, so I had to compromise on that one.

Truth be told about UVs, sometimes you have to make it more complicated, in other words, more UV islands, in order to get the effect you need.

Now I don't think what I've called "final" is perfect and I'm addressing those issues as they come up and will continue to until it IS perfect, based on feedback from the texture makers.

Quote -
And Mike: Please, as I said, we all can create other parts of the texture before we do the Inner Mouth - so please don't feel any pressure!!

Nah, no pressure. But I do want to get these things taken care of as quickly as possible. :-)

Here's my current "shopping list" for the next preview, FYI:

DONE:

• translation channels no longer frozen
• fixed head twist glitch
• head points at objects correctly
• made Poser respect turned off IK chains in legs
• improved shoulder JCMs
• improved collar joint setup

TODO:

• handle geometries are hidden or empty by default
• fix breast geometry glitch (found by lesbentley)
• add blank channels for morph injection
• include "eyebrows gone" and "toecaps gone" morphs
• set limits for bends

I'd like to upload in time for the first birthday of this thread, so I'm not going to add anything ambitious to the list. But if you can think of anything that should be fixed/changed and requires no more than a little fiddling with the cr2 or such, I'll include it.

Both UVS look very nice and maybe if we didn't already had the first one some things wouldn't make a difference. I understand what you say about this UVS to be more friendly on other applications... on my eyes the perfect solution is in the between (as a poser user anyway I can't talk for other applications)

Comparing the two of them there are things I like on both
I like the way the new one is cut but would prefer a stitched version like V3 and it looks like it could happen without huge space waste, secondary parts could go with the body. this would be a very poser friendly and also easier even for not advanced texture makers to use.
the lips are very very tricky to match in photoshop if they are unattached,  the transition becomes sharp and the new textures show that.
eyes are better mapped also on the new one (don't know if the iris is separated from eyes white, this would also give sharp edges)
also lashes and eyebrow should have a separate map for a poser friendly version, each of them,  and that because many people don't use transparency for the eyebrows
I'm sure anyway that both versions are super fine already and very easy to use, they can give great results

This project looks fantastic. I am glad I chanced upon this thread.

So in the next preview she'll have a very flexible shoulder region, but unfortunately her clavicles will look like they're made of rubber when one moves the collars, and there will be the occasional unsightly bulge. I'll fix those problems later with some new JCMs. Well, try to, anyway!

Is there any way in Poser to use "hold" bones or anchor bones that don't do much but anchor down an area of geometry, to keep it from being deformed unintentionally?

Quote - Is there any way in Poser to use "hold" bones or anchor bones that don't do much but anchor down an area of geometry, to keep it from being deformed unintentionally?

Not as far as I know. Why?

Quote -

I won't abandon the other mapping, though. At the very least, I will include an extra set of cr2s. Preferably, we'd come up with a simple way to switch  the geometries whenever the user loads a material set made for the alternate mapping.

I have successfully tested a way and how you can transform using a pz2 in Poser between different OBJ with other material areas created. I have tested this on a Testobjekt and it works.

I forgot to say who was the tester. It is Jules53757.

This way I can integrate an existing cr2 files of various material areas also hr2.

So I write with help from multiply pz2 ´s and the different OBJ ´s with different material areas the structure in the basic cr2. Now more pz2 can help or mc6 more files under the respective cr2 materials with different zones pure authorities.

i slept through the whole thing. :)

MikeJ, about the zbrush thing - i'm not sure if i understood the problem you encountered. but i can give it a go myself. it's just that the last time i tried that - i ended up with holed Antonia when i opened her in zbrush (you've seen the image, breaking where the seams are - which defies the whole purpose of texturing in zbrush, lol).
or will the obj that you send will not do that?
i dunno, but we can try.

ok, nevermind all that, i just saw your PM.

to do list: learn to read then react
lol

Quote -
Not as far as I know. Why?

Maybe I misunderstood what you meant, what you were trying to do, but you had mentioned painting weights, and I thought of rigging in Lightwave.
In LW you can't really "paint" weight maps, though you can assign weight maps to groups of polygons and set the falloff for them, and then assign bones to them although that will significantly increase the file size, as they are more vertex maps added to the mix, and can also slow down bone performance at the same time.

So the other method to avoid that is to use "hold bones" in areas to prevent other nearby bones from deforming areas you don't want deformed. The hold bones, however can also be used to deform the mesh if you want to.

Although in Poser, the equivalent to weight maps would be assigning certain parts to a bone, which I believe simply has to be done, period. In LW, the bones will automatically influence a region around them, with or without weight maps, so "hold bones" can be used in problem areas.

So I was just wondering if there was a way to do that in Poser, as it might help to solidify body parts from being deformed, as an addition to the falloff settings for the nearby bones.

Well, from what it sounds like, LightWave must be just as peculiar as Poser when it comes to rigging, but in different ways. I was more thinking of what I read about programs like Maya and Blender. Anyway, Poser rigging doesn't allow me to do what I need to do, which is annoying. That was my only point.

Quote - Well, from what it sounds like, LightWave must be just as peculiar as Poser when it comes to rigging, but in different ways. I was more thinking of what I read about programs like Maya and Blender. Anyway, Poser rigging doesn't allow me to do what I need to do, which is annoying. That was my only point.

No, Lightwave isn't known for its character animation/rigging tools. At least not for more complex characters. Although it can be done, it requires numerous 3rd party plugins and a whole lot of workarounds. Lightwave is and has been primarily a VFX program, which it excels at.

Although the bones and joints are more flexible in LW 9.6 than in any previous version, and very easy to use, tweaking them and setting up good IK and easily managed rigs is the main problem.

*also I like lips not to be separated from the head skin

*I thought this as well... until I tried the new mapping out and found that the lip material is slightly larger than the shape of the lip. *This gives you the following option:

*Cover the lip material with skin (the part of the skin that covers the lip area on the head).
If you fix seams in ZBrush, Bodypaint or in another 3d application you should fix slight imperfections now and make the lip-skin match the face-skin.
Now add the lips to the skin base and match them until they are slightly smaller than the underlying skin. If desired "melt" them with the skin by erasing very small parts from the edges.

...Try them out and be happy *

Leo made me a colored layer that matches the shape (not the UVs) of the lips. If someone has use for it give me a wink and I'll upload it to the developer site.

And for your To Do list, odf (but not very urgent):

While switching from one material and bodypart to the other when working on the texture I found that the sort order is pretty puzzeling if not to say random. I am not aware if it's possible but IF: Would you give them both a kind of logical oder? You know: The bodyparts starting with the head and ending with the toes and the materials combined "per mat" (all eye-materials, all arm-materials and so on). This will make it far easier to texture the girl and most of all to avoid adding the wrong map to a material.

Quote - *
And for your To Do list, odf (but not very urgent):

While switching from one material and bodypart to the other when working on the texture I found that the sort order is pretty puzzeling if not to say random. I am not aware if it's possible but IF: Would you give them both a kind of logical oder? You know: The bodyparts starting with the head and ending with the toes and the materials combined "per mat" (all eye-materials, all arm-materials and so on). This will make it far easier to texture the girl and most of all to avoid adding the wrong map to a material.

It's possible, and I'll put it on the list. I'm just not quite sure what the best order is for the body parts. For example: both collars, then both shoulders, etc, or everything on the left arm, then everything on the right arm? Any opinions?

I actually used to have the materials in a logical order, but apparently for Antonia-114 I didn't go through my usual processing steps, so the magical incantations didn't make it into the final obj file.

Hmmmm.... I think the "classic" way is to follow the body from Head to toe and where the limbs are these again from start to end. This would mean that after the chest one of the collars will follow, then the shoulder, forearm and so on until you reach the last joint of the pinkie. Then the same for the other collar. As you "stopped" with the chest you will now add the abdomen, hip and so on until you reach the leg.
But I am not absolutely sure... and as I have Antonia open at the moment to render a close up to see where the face may need fixing I have no chance to open V4.
But if I remember her right her bodyparts and materials should be in a senseful sort order - most of all: People are pretty used to it what will give them an easy start when they begin to work with Antonia.

Well, it looks like the Vickies all go from the hip up to the head, then right arm, left arm, right leg, left leg. I can imitate that, with the necessary adjustments.

Ahhh... hmmm... the hip is the first part in the row, huh? I thought that it was the head... :blushing:

As said: I think it's not urgent at the moment but will be nice to have in the final figure. Maybe someone else has an idea as well - and I will have a look on Victoria and see the strange sort order on my own

It makes sense to start with the hip, seeing as it is the root of the hierarchy.

Quote -
I thought this as well... until I tried the new mapping out and found that the lip material is slightly larger than the shape of the lip.

This is true. An earlier version had, I think, one more row of polygons than the current version.
If it's working out for you the way it is, that's great, but just like the teeth-n-gums thing, if you want something different, don't be shy to ask. :-)

I'm still wondering about the eyes though, and nobody has yet answered the question if I should overlap them so there's only one eye to texture and not two the way it is now.

About the hip starting the sort order: Sounds logical to me! *

I'm still wondering about the eyes though, and nobody has yet answered the question if I should overlap them so there's only one eye to texture and not two the way it is now.

Oh, it seems that I missed your question or misunderstood it. What exactly do you need to know?*

Hi SaintFox,

Well, for some idiotic reason I mapped both eyes separately, which creates extra work for you texture people, and serves no useful purpose, since each eye has its own material assignments.

So I was thinking that in the version I'm doing with the teeth separated, I should probably just overlap the UVs for the eyes, like normal, so you only have to texture over one set of UVs.

I'd keep the same size of course, just move the right eye UVs over, to exactly cover the left eye UVs.
Or the other way around, which ever is preferred.

It would be really easy to do, just wondering if I should do it or not, and which set of eye UVs to move, the right or the left?

I saw the change - and thought that it's good as you are able to texture both eyes in a different way if desired, for instance by rotating the iris of one eye a bit to get a natural look. I have to confess that, also I added slight differences to one iris, I did not render a closeup op both eyes so far to see if it works.

I think overlapping the eyes should be fine. I do, however, think that the materials for each eye should be different. I know it is rare to have 2 different colored eyes, but it is nice to have the option.

Yes, different colored eyes are not often found in real life. Personally I know three people who have this "feature" - and David Bowie

But there is more than different colors: Most people have little spots on the iris or segments that are colored in a different way. For those who like to do close-up portraits features like this create a morr lifelike look.

Quote - I saw the change - and thought that it's good as you are able to texture both eyes in a different way if desired, for instance by rotating the iris of one eye a bit to get a natural look. I have to confess that, also I added slight differences to one iris, I did not render a closeup op both eyes so far to see if it works.

I think I didn't make myself really clear.
Being that Antonia does in fact have separate material groups for each iris, cornea, and sclera, there's no real need to have each eye part - six in all - having its own UV space. Antonia's original UV mapping has each set of eye UVs overlapping.
The benefit to doing it that way is that you can create one eye texture for each part and apply it to both eyes, OR, you can create separate textures and apply one texture to one eye and the other texture to the other eye.
So having them overlapping in no way hinders one's ability to texture each eye separately.

Now, the way I did it requires a texture artist to make separate eye textures, or at least to have to take the time to paste the textures for one side over to the other, which makes more work, with no added benefit.
The only real benefit I can see is that with having two sets of eyes on the same map, one can easily compare the one texture to the other, which really, IMO, isn't that much of a benefit being that there are many other ways of easily doing that.

I'm just trying to think ahead to the future here. if my UVs do become the "official" mapping, and Antonia becomes popular, people are going to wonder, Why in the world did he map the eyes like that?
And of course the only answer I have is that they were easy to do, and I just did it quickly, while not really putting any thought into it, which isn't a very good answer at all. ;-)

I have to agree asymmetric eye texture gives a small detail that adds on realism, I always make irises assymetric
Now I would prefer to have both eyes on the same map and not overlapping because I don't like to have more material zones to setup, laziness is the only reason :biggrin:

I think the Blender crowd would appreciate having fewer material zones, as well. But maybe 2.5 has done away with that old 16 materials limit.

Okay, now I understand! I leave it to the rest of you what you prefer and if we decide for a new mapping I really hope that I can reuse what I've done so far. Making the eyes look good took me as long as creating the body...

To me the actual mapping is fine as it is indeed far easier to compare the scleras and irisses - and most of all you'll see in the future that VERY few people add a second eyemap just to get slight differences.

I am not sure if I already said it but I like the way the lashes are mapped. Yes, of course, they are small and you need to add a big transparency map for tiny lashes - but compared to the straight map we had in the beginning painting them was so easy and fun that I already have two versions.

**Quote - Okay, now I understand! I leave it to the rest of you what you prefer and if we decide for a new mapping I really hope that I can reuse what I've done so far. Making the eyes look good took me as long as creating the body...
**> **Quote -

**
Ah yes, well that's why I asked earlier whether I should move the left one to the right or the right one over to the left.
See, for example, if you already textured the left eye, I would move the right eye UVs over and you wouldn't have to do any additional work at all. And the size wouldn't change either, just the position, so any textures for the other eye could just be moved over, if you still have a layered .psd file, or copied and pasted over if not.
Could you upload a screen shot of just the eye texture map so I can see what you've done so far?

**Quote -
To me the actual mapping is fine as it is indeed far easier to compare the scleras and irisses - and most of all you'll see in the future that VERY few people add a second eyemap just to get slight differences.
**

Well I'm glad you like it as-is. :-)
But that's what I was talking about. It's the same with Victoria - people want to have to do less work and yes you;r right, very few take that extra measure to add asymmetry. So having both eyes overlapping makes it easier overall.
Even so, as I said, it in no way limits one's ability to create completely unique maps for each iris, sclera, and even cornea.

**Quote -
I am not sure if I already said it but I like the way the lashes are mapped. Yes, of course, they are small and you need to add a big transparency map for tiny lashes - but compared to the straight map we had in the beginning painting them was so easy and fun that I already have two versions.
**

Thanks again!  :-)
You'll notice that in the original Antonia, the eyelashes look distorted, bent, because the UVs were straightened out into a rectangle. So even though the lash trans maps may have been fine, the distorted UVs created a distorted look.
Keeping the UV shape as close to the same as the actual polygons they represent is the way to avoid distortion.
Having said that, I can make them larger, if you'd like, and that wouldn't cause any distortion, but would simply give more texture space.

I'm working on the teeth and gums fix right now. I won't be able to keep at it all day, but by tomorrow morning I should have some screenshots ready to upload to show you guys the changes I've made, and what some of these other changes such as eyes and possibly lashes would look like, so you can let me know what you think, what you'd like to see. :-)

Again, it's all up to you texture people, and I want to make it as easy as possible to work with, and also make it so you can be able to get the best texture quality out of.

EDIT:
I'd like to take a moment to mention how much I despise this forum software.
And I'll just leave it at that ;-)

...again I stayed awake all night because I was not able to leave the textures alone - it's a bit like a good computer game: Just one more level... and one more... and....
So I need to get at least some hours of sleep now. I post the lash trans tomorrow so you may decide on your own if it's too small. I do not think so. The small size offers the option to use smaller brush sizes - the result is very clean and smooth.

@ odf,

For the "shopping list". How about Ik for the arms? I sugest that the collars should not be included in the chain.