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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2024 Nov 29 7:57 am)



Subject: Human/Humanoid features, Poser characters, sensitivity etc ( Controversial ?)


infinity10 ( ) posted Sun, 24 January 2010 at 4:43 AM · edited Fri, 29 November 2024 at 12:40 PM

I am not one for much in-depth soul-searching about art, but I have to share my thoughts on this item.  Bear with me, please.

I have recently been looking up more information on Treacher Collins Syndrome, after watching a documentary about a person suffering from it.

After looking at images of individuals who suffer from this ailment, I realise that some of the fantasy characters we come across in 3D CG - for example, Poser characters, DAZ Studio Characters, etc etc, may bear some resemblance to these persons.

I don't personally know anyone who suffers from such a syndrome. 

I do wonder if an artist ought to be more sensitive about such matters.  Truth is, I begin to feel that perhaps I should be more careful in how I use fantasy creatures in my art, not that I am an artist worthy of any note.

Eternal Hobbyist

 


RobynsVeil ( ) posted Sun, 24 January 2010 at 5:01 AM

Um, the characters bear some resemblance to the sufferers? In what way? Could you elaborate?

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Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

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dphoadley ( ) posted Sun, 24 January 2010 at 6:07 AM

I think that you are over reacting.  If we were to do renders of Long John Silver, or Captain Hook, would we be guilty of insult to all those who are missing limbs?  Frankly I've never heard of this syndrome, and I'm not sure that I even want to.
Daily life is hard enough, without taking on extra burdens.
dph

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS


SeanMartin ( ) posted Sun, 24 January 2010 at 6:11 AM

I dont think that's something to be especially worried about, Infinity. If anything, the grand majority of Poser characters are runway models, with images that, more often than not, reflect that, that I'd be worried more about the users than anyone looking at the images themselves.

@ Robyn: do a google search for Treacher Collins Syndrome, and youll see what he's talking about. He's right in that some of the fantasy characters do tend to have these characteristics, but again, I dont think it's worth worrying about. I wouldnt just dismiss it out of hand -- yes, it's something to be aware of. But I'd worry more about the opposite end of the spectrum than this one. :)

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ockham ( ) posted Sun, 24 January 2010 at 7:45 AM

If you start down that road, you'll forbid all imagination.  Nearly all imagined variations
are similar to real genetic variations. 

For that matter, how about the perfectly ordinary-looking people who believe they're ugly,
and go through all sorts of plastic surgery to "improve" their appearance?  Depicting an
ordinary or attractive person could be viewed as offending one of those types.

The only exception would be using an image to directly harass or bully
a specific real person, in which case the problem is the bullying, not the art!

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dphoadley ( ) posted Sun, 24 January 2010 at 7:45 AM

Why must we worry at all, Poser isn't reality!  It's our own personal fantasy, and now we have to start censoring this too!  When will all this lunacy stop?
dph

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS


thefixer ( ) posted Sun, 24 January 2010 at 7:45 AM · edited Sun, 24 January 2010 at 7:46 AM

Well I googled it and checked out some pics and stuff and quite frankly I'm confused!!
I don't think I've seen any images/characters with this sort of condition.
I'm with the Hoad on this.
I mean, where would you draw the line??

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.


geep ( ) posted Sun, 24 January 2010 at 7:49 AM

Thanks infinity,

Everyday you learn something new. 😄

cheers,
dr geep
;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"


cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019



dphoadley ( ) posted Sun, 24 January 2010 at 7:56 AM

In my signature is a link to a Wood Nymph with only four fingers on each hand.  Stahlratte when he created her, made her that way.  Would any images rendered with this figure be considered an insult to all those carpenters and house builders who've had an unfortunate encounter with a power tool?
dph

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS


infinity10 ( ) posted Sun, 24 January 2010 at 8:52 AM

I guess I should be aware, and at the same time, not let it dampen creativity.

Eternal Hobbyist

 


LaurieA ( ) posted Sun, 24 January 2010 at 8:55 AM · edited Sun, 24 January 2010 at 8:58 AM

Too much sensitivity will just drive you nuts. Try not to have too much (I didn't say none, I just said too much). If you worry all the time whether or not you are offending someone, the only miserable person will be you. ;o) Think of it like this: most of the times that someone is offended because of something you said or did, it was a misinterpretation on their part, not a situation of being rude on your part. If you worry about how someone will interpret something, well, that could be a million different ways... In the end, in order to NOT offend, you may as well keep your mouth shut and stand in the corner...lol.

Laurie



lmckenzie ( ) posted Sun, 24 January 2010 at 10:02 AM

I applaud you for considering the issue. These days, if you express such concerns, you're likely to be derided for "PC" excess by folks championing their right to be offensive, and I'm glad no one here has taken that tone. Personally, I'd rather err a bit on the PC side than the other way though I'm certainly not perfect in that regard. by any means.

I agree that in this case I wouldn't be too concerned. There are models whose facial or body characteristics may bear a resemblance to some condition but it's probably rarely intentional. As long as people aren't exercising their "right" to use them to ridicule people, I don't necessarily see anything bad in that.

There are a few dwarf characters out there. I suppose some little people may be offended by them but OTOH, some might be gratified to see a 3D figure that actually looks something like them. Awhile back, someone was talking about doing a Down syndrome morph along those lines IIRC. If anything, as SeanMartin suggests, there is a lack of less than perfect people in Poser just like the rest of media.
 

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken


befanini ( ) posted Sun, 24 January 2010 at 10:16 AM

A bit of research and I understand at once the point you are trying to make. I guess with 3D being such a "lifelike" art expression, the fantasy creatures that are literally rendered by the artist feel so much more closer to reality. That is the essence of art and self-expression, after all - exactly what prompted you to post these thoughts. You were touched by an experience (albeit only getting a glimpse into the life of a Treacher Collins sufferer), and paralleled it with the medium you feel most comfortable expressing yourself with.

I'm with geep - you learn something new everyday! ;)

I applaud your sensitivity nonetheless - that is what gives soul to the artist.


basicwiz ( ) posted Sun, 24 January 2010 at 10:49 AM

 This falls under the argument that I used to have to chide my students about: "Are there really any ideas that we cannot discuss?"

I am with the rest... it's all well and good to be aware of what's in the world, but if we spend all our time worrying about who's feelings we may hurt, we'll create nothing. 


markschum ( ) posted Sun, 24 January 2010 at 11:03 AM

I think that if a fantasy character is for example , in a dungeon, wearing a leather kilt and holding an axe, then its not making fun of someone with a deformity who may resemble that character. If the same figure were dressed in casual clothes and placed in a picnic scene, shown being treated badly by the fashion model people then thats entirely different.

I think most artists would agree with rare exceptions a general disclaimer that "All pictures are done as entertainment and no insult or offense is intended to anyone"  


basicwiz ( ) posted Sun, 24 January 2010 at 11:28 AM

 Exactly.


replicand ( ) posted Sun, 24 January 2010 at 12:53 PM

 The Face Room is difficult to use and as far as I can recall, this is the only time I've seen characters that look similar to people with Treacher Collins Syndrome, so I guess I'm a bit confused as to where you're finding these fantasy rendered images. I'm not trying to be insensitive or a rabble rouser.

If it really bothers you, perhaps you can create a tribute piece celebrating the achievements of Treacher Collins Syndrome survivors. I'm gonna have to agree that most of them characters / images I see are highly idealized. In another thread, someone was saying that the wish people would create "ordinary people" morphs.


Osper ( ) posted Sun, 24 January 2010 at 1:02 PM

Well, I have to admit, that I like most other people here I had to go look it up.  My wife who teaches special education did not.  She has seen people with this malady and she made two observations.  the first was that what is modeled/protrayed in Rendorosity sometimes is somewhat  close to this malady but not the same.  She opinioned that an artist shouldn't be too worried about it if your art reflects fantasy.  The second was "where do you think the stories of ogres and trolls come from?".    To tell the truth I hadn't given it much thought.   So motor on as you have in the past but just be aware.  Art is art and sometimes it even reflects life!!   ;)


xantor ( ) posted Sun, 24 January 2010 at 3:16 PM

Is this an april fools thread?


basicwiz ( ) posted Sun, 24 January 2010 at 3:59 PM · edited Sun, 24 January 2010 at 4:05 PM

 Xantor: That was my first thought too, but on re-reading I believe the OP had honest ethical concerns so I chose not to poke fun. But I must admit, being a very "PC hostile" person, it was HARD!!! :)


dphoadley ( ) posted Sun, 24 January 2010 at 4:14 PM

I was born with a funny nick in my right earlobe.  I'm VERY offended by all renders that don't portray people with funny nicks in their right earlobes!  This is discriminatory, and won't be tolerated!
dph

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS


DangerousThing ( ) posted Sun, 24 January 2010 at 7:59 PM

I am reminded of a (quite real) committee meeting at Penn State about posting an agricultural image database to the web. At the end of the meeting we were absolutely forbidden from posting any pictures of slaughtering cows, because this could offend people of the Hindu religion. At no time was anybody of said religion consulted and several of the professors involved objected that without these pictures entire parts of their courses would be invalid.

If you go through life worrying that everything you do or say might offend somebody, you're going to do nothing but hide in your room eating, drinking, and breathing nothing. Of course doing this will cause you to die, and that might offend whomever discovers the body. :)


Miss Nancy ( ) posted Sun, 24 January 2010 at 9:39 PM

the facial features of those affected by the syndrome resemble the "innsmouth look"
as described by h. p. lovecraft IMVHO.  ISTR sixus did the purebred "deep ones". 

but it's true - everything we say or do is gonna be offensive to somebody, hence we apologise
for any appearance of ridiculing or caricaturing those with any genetic conditions.



RobynsVeil ( ) posted Sun, 24 January 2010 at 11:49 PM

Quote - After looking at images of individuals who suffer from this ailment, I realise that some of the fantasy characters we come across in 3D CG - for example, Poser characters, DAZ Studio Characters, etc etc, may bear some resemblance to these persons.

After looking at some images (googled) of individuals who suffer from this ailment, I have established that only very few of the fantasy characters we come across in 3D CG - Poser characters, DAZ3D characters - bear any resemblance to these persons.

I personally endeavour to create likenesses of a certain type of character: more historical fiction ala Sherlock Holmes rather than Tolkienesque. I am quite certain though that those who are creating Hobbits and Goblins or anything of that genre aren't exploiting their experiences with / memories of these unfortunate people.

One hopes that artists rise above the mindset that make a display of disfiguring disease.

One hopes.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks


dphoadley ( ) posted Mon, 25 January 2010 at 12:02 AM

Don't we have more important things to worry about, such as suicide bombers on intercity busses, large airplanes flying into buildings,  or bombs exploding in crowded shopping malls, than to worry about someone MAYBE taking offense over a digital fantasy character?  I have not googled the link, nor do I intend to.  Just staying alive from one day to the nest is enough for me.
dph

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS


markschum ( ) posted Mon, 25 January 2010 at 1:36 AM

I will suggest that there are many deformities or disabilities which are shown poorly in movies and television , and there may be some deformities that historically became the model for folklore creatures.

As long as the artist is not intentionally using that representation to deliberately offend those individuals then they should not be concerned with it. Fantasy and horror creatures in my opinion were not created to mock any person.

To the original poster I suggest that considering the matter does you credit, but enjoy your art. It doesnt really matter if you are a new user or an experianced artist.
Dont put your talents down , your gallery is rxcellent.
 


infinity10 ( ) posted Mon, 25 January 2010 at 2:48 AM

Thanks All for your comments and kind and supportive words, plus informative input.  All very much appreciated.

Eternal Hobbyist

 


cspear ( ) posted Mon, 25 January 2010 at 4:21 AM

Searching for Treacher Collins Syndrome in Google images doesn't produce images that resemble any items I've seen here or anywhere else in the Poserverse.

On the other hand, why should such creations be forbidden? Why shouldn't we have Downs Syndrome characters too?


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