Tell me enough lies and I might just get indignant.

@Treasurer_and_Battle:

I don't think it's that people are getting indignant so much about what the kids look like (although to me, they don't look nearly as close to real children as the Gen3 kids did), but that they don't fully support Poser. After Freak 4 and now this, it's like a slap in the face for Poser-only users since without them, Daz would have been a memory not long after they and Zygote split. Personally, I really don't care one way or the other since I hardly use Daz figures at all anymore - since the version 4's came out, I find them glitchy, ugly and harder to use than ever with the gazillion injections and the initializations that don't always take, etc, etc. But for those of you with Daz in your eyes that want to keep on buying everything they release, knock yourselves out...lol. Maybe it's you folks that Daz are counting on to switch to Daz Studio just so you can use their figures. I won't be one of them. I just like my Poser too much ;o).

Laurie

Treasurer_and_Battle:
How much is DAZ paying you to be their font man, since this is the 1st time I've ever seen you in the Forum here?  I only ask because you genuinely sound like you have vested interest in the K4's success.  To me that speaks money!
As with Posette, all it will take to get the P4 kids to look good is texture!  As for P4 figure posing, well most people don't know how to pose worth a gosh-darn, so of course they pose like crud!  Dr Geep though knows how to get good results with them, and so do I!
dph**

**

Sheesh, DAZ isn't paying me a darn thing.  I have posted here on occasion - honestly, its usually when I find a technical problem I can't solve in Poser as people here are so helpful in that regard.   I like the Kid figures - if you look at my gallery here at Rendo, you'll see that they are mostly what I render.  The only vested interest I have in the Kids is that I want them to have lots of support - more products for me to use in my renders.  I know you are a fan of the Poser 4 figures, but I find newer releases to be far better.
I tried very hard to get use out of Ben as he falls in the midrange of ages between Matt and Luke, but his shoulders are just so bad.
Frankly, I find the strong emotion that some have posted with regard the Kids 4 seems over the top.  I mean, first of all, they are free.  Second of all, I don't see anyone else trying to do something with the Kids - Poser 8 had a new man and woman, but no new kids. 

Oh, **dphoadley, you are Israeli, right?  Go check out the newest pic I posted today in my gallery - I think you might like it.  I hope so, anyway - I put a lot of feeling into it.
**

Don't listen to dp....he's still stuck in the 3D stone age ;o).

Sir, if I have wronged you, or done you a disservice, then I apologize!  After all, if a person is a lover of Israel, then he must have some good stuff in him! I have added both yourself and your render to my favorites.
The reason for my post in the 1st place, is that any time a vendor came out with a rival figure to one of the DAZ ones, there was always one person here in the forums in more vociferous than the rest in his opposition.  The fight over Dina V is the one I remember the most.  Dina V was killed in the bud by Daz Agents provacateaurs here in the Forum.  And I kept asking myself, 'Why are they so incensed?!'  That kind of emotion just doesn't spring forth for no reason!  My only conclusion was that they must be on someones payroll.

Anyway, again, if I have wronged you, then I apologize!
Yours truly,
David P. Hoadley

The top age for K4 is 8 :)

K4 is supposed to be 4-8 with the Toddler taking him a bit lower.  I don't know why that the younger age is more popular than the 8-12 age (which I wish there was a decent option for).  I've seen a couple of young M4 morphs that seem promising, but still nothing quite there yet.

LaurieA, beware of my digital 3d flint Axe!
dph

DP, no problem.  I assure you, I'm on no one's payroll.  Were there another kid figure, I'd probably be supporting them as well - the more the better because there is not a lot of choice in this area.

I describe myself as the world's only Bahamian Zionist - in fact, I'm a Christian by faith, but my great-grandfather was Jewish.  His last name was Solomon, if you please - can't get any more Jewish than that!

Not that it's worth the trouble, personally, but has anyone scaled any of the newest figures in Daz Studio and exported as a cr2?  I'm wondering if that would allow the scaled figure to function in Poser. 

Sorry, not a frequent poster on this forum either, but I do read from time to time... Came here this time looking for reactions to the fact that DAZ have obviously lost interest in supporting Poser. It was bad enough with the other generation 4 figures, but Kids4 really take the cake!

As a Poser user since version 3, I don't like DAZ Studio - don't like the UI, don't like the renderer, don't like the lighting etc. etc. and I'll be damned if I'm gonna be forced to use that application! So effectively, my support for DAZ figures ends here.

Poser 6 figures had real potential and were the best supported since Posette. But not enough to compete with DAZ. I'm truly sorry that the Poser developers chose to replace them rather than improve them. Otherwise Poser users might have been in a better position at this time.

Quote - But for those of you with Daz in your eyes that want to keep on buying everything they release, knock yourselves out...lol. Maybe it's you folks that Daz are counting on to switch to Daz Studio just so you can use their figures.
Laurie

I Disagree,
I dont think the DAZ business model ever included  any real
expectation of getting poser users to switch en mass.
and it seems more likely that poser support is being phased out .
Its all about Economics at this point  and if cross app compatibility
is no longer viable ( by DAZ's estimation) then poser support will/should end.
IMHO

Here's what everyone can do......  go here: www.facebook.com/DAZ3D.FanPage/posts/114841858542631 and let DAZ know you really are unhappy with these kids. Let's beat this wowers & fans by telling DAZ they should have do a better job and not also not ignore Poser users.

To the poster who said these are a wild success... te base figures are free. We love free things, so of course there's going to be plenty of downloads for the base.

To the poster who caveled about the P4 children... like so many other things, we want it all handed to us, instead of actually going in and working with it. We want paint by numbers when Poser gives us a blank canvas to find our own art. Sorry if this sounds self-congratulatory, but I did some kick-ass stuff with the P4 guy that pushed him up to a level equaling M2. The same thng could be done with any of the figures that come with the software, but most users dont want to spend the time actually delving into a figure to make it their own. I'd posit that, in the right hands, even the P4kids could be made better than the K4s. But you havwe to be willing to invest the time.

As for DAZ itself, yes, it used to really grate on me that we made them the only game in town, with a particular emphasis on Barbie Showgirl. But nowadays I rarely do anything in Poser that isnt toon based, so, to be blunt, I dont really care anymore what DAZ does or does not do. I think the direction they're going in verges on the flat out ugly for the female meshes -- A4 and the Girl4 are nothing compared to their predecessors -- but M4, as I already noted, was a huge improvement. So IMHO it's a curious phenomenom over there, with -- for once in the company's history -- men who are far hotter than the women would ever be. And now with these pretty weird kids... well, it just confirms my view that DAZ is finding its own style, and the style aint pretty.

Just my 0.02. YRMV.

Ah, and the toddler not working in Poser?

A harbinger of things to come, folks. And kindly remember that I called that one over a year ago. DAZ is going to pull more and more away from Poser support, and you can see the Toddler as a trial balloon to weight the community's reaction.

I only use DAZ Studio, so I can't really comment on how the mil4 kid works in poser. But I don't think that DAZ are trying to move away from its poser customer base. I know some people have said they have had problems with the M4K in poser but a lot of others have said they have had no problem.
Personally I prefer this to the M3 kids. I think some of the morphs on sale are really good and  am sure that there will be more that are better and better.

Quote - > Quote - But for those of you with Daz in your eyes that want to keep on buying everything they release, knock yourselves out...lol. Maybe it's you folks that Daz are counting on to switch to Daz Studio just so you can use their figures.

Laurie

I Disagree,
I dont think the DAZ business model ever included  any real
expectation of getting poser users to switch en mass.
and it seems more likely that poser support is being phased out .
Its all about Economics at this point  and if cross app compatibility
is no longer viable ( by DAZ's estimation) then poser support will/should end.
IMHO

Hmmm....I keep hearing that word. Economics. I would think that it would be economical to make their figures Poser compatible since that is, for the moment, still the larger chunk of their market. So, if it's a matter of economics, then it's economical suicide to phase out Poser compatibility.

Laurie

 "it's economical suicide to phase out Poser compatibility."

I have to agree with that. Poser is a huge part of the 3D market now. Used to be almost invisible, but now, I see poser-use everywhere. I saw James on Good Morning America just a day ago. The whole industry may not be measured huge by world standards, but it lets lots of people make a living on something most people regard as a hobby.

I can see why DAZ might want to break out with their own thing, but eliminating the reason WHY they are a successful Poser Business is not a viable business decision  Poser content is what they make. Also it's what made THEM. If they don't make poser content, then what are they?

If they keep this up, a model of a failed business.

That's why I'm thinking the Toddler is a trial balloon. They want to see how far they can push it. If the Toddler moves without much grief from the Poser community, we'll probably see more and more DAZ only stuff.

And after all, why not? They've invested a ton of cash into Studio, and they certainly want to see a return on that investment rather than play second fiddle to Poser all the time.

Really, guys - DAZ sells content, that's where their money is.  They are not going to try and drive off any portion of their market - what would be the point?  They only developed Studio because at the time, they were not sure if Poser was going to have a future and they wanted to make sure there was a fallback.  Plus, having an entry level program that is free is a good way to bring in new customers to the hobby.
There is no evil plot with the toddler - it was a last minute addition and when it was clear that it couldn't work in Poser, they gave it away as a weekly freebie.

Quote - That's why I'm thinking the Toddler is a trial balloon. They want to see how far they can push it. If the Toddler moves without much grief from the Poser community, we'll probably see more and more DAZ only stuff.

And after all, why not? They've invested a ton of cash into Studio, and they certainly want to see a return on that investment rather than play second fiddle to Poser all the time.

Presenting the perfect opportunity for some industrious person or persons to come in and fill the gap ;o).

Laurie

Forget the toddler - what I'd really like to see is a decent baby.

I just posted this in an other thread:
"....
It is a small child of no more than 4 years. There are no morphs (or other cr2s) included to depict other ages like a 6 or 8 year old child. These would have so very different proportions all over, you can't just scale them. Somehow I had expected to get just that, children from about 4 to about 8 years old. Dumb old me.

So, if you need a Kindergartenchild, the Kid4 maybe right. But I won't try to send it to school, it maybe get laughed at and suffer severe personality damages. ;)
....."

The image shows the K4 and the included Toddler morph. I found no way (with the included morphs from the mophs ++ pack)  to make the K4 looking like an 8 year old child.

>> "They only developed Studio because at the time, they were not sure if Poser was going to have a future and they wanted to make sure there was a fallback. "

Yes, but now they've started riding that horse and it's halfway across the river.

And the genesis of Studio is a tad more complex than just having a fallback. Ask those of us who were around for it about the Face Room story. It might not have spurred Studio's development, but it sure pushed it further down the road.

>> "Plus, having an entry level program that is free is a good way to bring in new customers to the hobby."

That would be fine if Studio and Poser shared all resources. But it doesnt work that way. Yes, the cr2s can go from one to another, but lights? Shaders? Animation? All very different.

But that's how you roll with business. Create a flagship model that the community supports almost unquestioningly. Build a software that's close, but not quite close enough, to one that everyone already uses. Make a lot of these resources free so people will go with it in droves.

What's the next logical step in this progression?

Sometimes I think it wouldn't really be a bad idea if Daz would stop supporting Poser. Let me explain my reasoning here...

If Daz stops supporting Poser, it doesn't mean that Poser users are going to just up and start using Daz Studio. Some will perhaps, but most of us will not. And that represents a prime opportunity for some who might see the empty void and fill it. I'd like to see something new by someone new. There are so many ultra-talented people in this community that it's bound to happen. And when it does, it will be something of quality, of that I'm sure. So maybe it's a good thing ;o).

Laurie

SeanMartin, that would assume that DAZ primary interest is in selling the software - it looks clear to me that their main revenue stream is from content.  This is just a guess - I have know inside knowledge - but I suspect Studio only breaks even on what they have to pay their programers to create it.  Their main revenue stream has to be content and there is no motive for cutting off any portion of that market.

Correction: I didn't want my previous post to sound like Daz is about to stop supporting Poser. As far as I know, they have no intentions of doing that at this point in time. Just wanted to clarify. I was just musing ;o).

Laurie

 Dumping poser support would be Unwise for DAZ. After seeing the banking melt down of the last few years however, Business and wisdom do NOT go hand in hand.

If the Mil4 toddler is a trial balloon, I hope it gets shot down with extreme prejudice for all sakes involved.:laugh: What an image. LOL

Quote -  Dumping poser support would be Unwise for DAZ. After seeing the banking melt down of the last few years however, Business and wisdom do NOT go hand in hand.

If the Mil4 toddler is a trial balloon, I hope it gets shot down with extreme prejudice for all sakes involved.:laugh: What an image. LOL

I'm not worried anymore, feels good. They cant dump me cause I've dumped them. 

I really hope we do see something new by someone new, a one horse race is unhealthy.

Actually, that pic by Niles a few posts back looks kinda cute ;o). If I could change the nose and make the legs and arms a bit thinner, he'd be doable. Actually, I'd have no problem fixing the nose and face by myself since I don't do too bad with the morph tool. It's everything else that worries me.

Laurie

>> "SeanMartin, that would assume that DAZ primary interest is in selling the software - it looks clear to me that their main revenue stream is from content."

For the moment. DAZ has always wanted to make the leap into the Big Time with Maya and StudioMax and disassociate itself from the hobbyist market that is Poser. The content sales underwrote the software development, but I've noticed we've not seen a major plug in for Studio since Animator (or whatever it's called). I dont know quite what might mean business-wise, but there you are anyway. But they have engineered almost everything to go through Studio, even requiring its installation with other programs, regardless of whether or not the user wanted it or it was even necessary for that outside program to run -- I asked for two years why it was necessary to install DS when I went to Bryce 6, and I never got a straight answer. That to me suggests they were pushing hard, anyway they could, for Studio support.

Maybe it didnt pan out like they hoped. Maybe the plug ins werent the sellers they hoped they would be. Or maybe they've decided not to pursue the goal of being the next Big Three D thing. Who knows what's going on at Draper these days.

As I said at the beginning, I no longer care what they do. I buy the occasional prop from AntFarm, and that's about it.

 From a friend of mine, who does a LOT of rigging in Poser, the DAS studio set-up tools are a plug-in worth the price. Since he got Poser 8 I didn't think they might be better or worse, but he says the DAZ tools are still mostly superior. Maybe by Poser 9 they will be superior.  So, as much as I do NOT like Studio, they have come out with some good tools for it.

That doesn't mean I like it or would do ANYTHING to support it. If people want to use it, fine. I just prefer Poser. I just wish DAZ would see the forest for the trees and go for compatibility, instead of trying to come up with the "NEXT BIG THING".

Quote - Sometimes I think it wouldn't really be a bad idea if Daz would stop supporting Poser. Let me explain my reasoning here...

If Daz stops supporting Poser, it doesn't mean that Poser users are going to just up and start using Daz Studio. Some will perhaps, but most of us will not. And that represents a prime opportunity for some who might see the empty void and fill it. I'd like to see something new by someone new. There are so many ultra-talented people in this community that it's bound to happen. And when it does, it will be something of quality, of that I'm sure. So maybe it's a good thing ;o).

Laurie

I've been thinking along the same lines. It wouldn't be a bad thing at all, it would set some creativity free again, something DAZ (and a lot of it's vendors) have lost. DAZ seems be stuck and I wouldn't mind if they would abandon Poser altogether, I'm sure someone (or a lot of someones) will fill up the gap and bring the fun back to poser. DAZ is dominating the market too much and it sure isn't unleasing creativity, it's the same old over and over again. I'm really hoping for something new outside of DAZ to happen.

I have to agree with aeilkema and LaurieA:

I really believe it would do the whole Poser community a world of good if daz butted out. Let us go in new directions.

***Let my people go, throw off the yoke of slavery to daz. *** :laugh:

But... but... who's going to provide our impractical armour? Our swords? Our temples?

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS HOLY, THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN!!!

Oh wait, that's what this thread is about. Never mind.

Actually DAZ might be doing Poser a very big favor by dropping support for Poser versions before P8.  It might give the vendors better opportunity to develop products for what is Poser current and force old time users to upgrade.  The big angle here, will DAZ vendors entirely switch to exclusive DAZStudio support or will they exit in droves if they revenues dwindle.

Think of it...how many technical aspects (and workaround hacks) in Poser have been discovered by the good people of Daz? Not many. Most if not all have been discovered by folks in the community. Easy pose, geometry switching, MAT pose files to name a few...

There are a lot of great minds among those who use Poser, a lot of talent. If there's just one place making all the figures that get used by the greatest number of people, then the technology is driven by them and only them. Even if a newer, easier way is discovered and Daz doesn't conform to it, the newest ideas die right there just by virtue of Daz's popularity. It's not anyone's fault, it's just the way things are. But look at some of the vendors who release products to fix the Daz figures joints for instance? Daz never fixes them themselves. An extra product must be purchased to fix something that should have been addressed long ago with successive upgrades (I've noticed the joint peculiarities still exist in the kids). It's time for a change perhaps ;o).

Laurie

I wonder about the vendors too. Will they only support figures that only work in daz? I dont know, I do know it doesn't have to be that way . Look at Antonia, she scales perfectly fine in d/s or Poser. So both apps are still supported by her.

the kids were designed to be aged 4-8 and can push up to 12. they were designed to be morphed. which means they were built to have a neutral look about them which is why they look like they do in the promo images. if they were perfect then there would be no need for 3rd party artists to generate morphs or keep the market going. people here need to look a little deeper into whats goin on. i for one think that maddie was a horrible looking child. not at all realistic and it seems that no matter what was done to make her look more realistic... never quite cut it. with the new kids 4 after using it for 3 days (not judging it from promo images) i can see that with the morphs++ that were made available gives the user greater control of the model more so than the maddie morphs. also they didnt over do it with the body morphs which means people who are planning to create characters for this model for free or for sale they have room to be creative.

i just wish the leader in the daz bashing of this great product would buy it for herself before posting negative remarks about the model before posting.

i for one think the kids 4 have great potential and we will see many great creations for it as time allows.

thank you.

Quote - the kids were designed to be aged 4-8 and can push up to 12. they were designed to be morphed. which means they were built to have a neutral look about them which is why they look like they do in the promo images. if they were perfect then there would be no need for 3rd party artists to generate morphs or keep the market going. people here need to look a little deeper into whats goin on. i for one think that maddie was a horrible looking child. not at all realistic and it seems that no matter what was done to make her look more realistic... never quite cut it. with the new kids 4 after using it for 3 days (not judging it from promo images) i can see that with the morphs++ that were made available gives the user greater control of the model more so than the maddie morphs. also they didnt over do it with the body morphs which means people who are planning to create characters for this model for free or for sale they have room to be creative.

i just wish the leader in the daz bashing of this great product would buy it for herself before posting negative remarks about the model before posting.

i for one think the kids 4 have great potential and we will see many great creations for it as time allows.

thank you.

Can you post example of 10 or 12 yr old, Please?
I have them and the morphs, but I 'm not having much luck with them.
They have plenty of head morphs and I like the teeth, but there is so few body morphs.
Thanks
Note * I'm using Poser 7 and 8

Quote - I wonder about the vendors too. Will they only support figures that only work in daz? I dont know, I do know it doesn't have to be that way . Look at Antonia, she scales perfectly fine in d/s or Poser. So both apps are still supported by her.

Actually, she doesn't (just tried it). Neither do any of the SM figures, Jessi, james, G2's or any other I tried. Everyone can easily test this for themselves, it is most obvious on any figure's neck.

Tilt the head down, tilt the neck down so the figure is in a deep nod. Select the neck, Y axis (length) and scale it up or down. At some point any figure will start looking broken and disjointed.

All poser figures I ever encountered that use bendable joints encounter this. it is due to single axis scaling dfistortions due to JP parameter inability to account for non uniform scaling.
It's a limitation of somewhat archaic poser rigging.  Joint moves with it's JP zones, and the mesh parts taht are inside JP bend zones before scaling are now outside.

To make it work with current rigging system, one would have to anticipate Z Scaling and make a whole array of ERC'd JP adjustments and JCM's for each joint. That would be a humongous undertaking. Not to mention very cost prohibitive to make a figure like that, and especially clothing for it.

Any conceivable option will look broken is you turn a dial far enough. With Apollo it is possible to combine scaling with "taper" and morphs to achieve an incredible range of transformations in Poser. Granted, not everyone is a genius, but this sort of stuff is possible in Poser and even profitable if a creator has the skill and the talent. 

 Apollo, Antonia, and Brad scale wonderfully. The Kids4 do not.. Most of the morphforms for the kids just do not work in poser. The only conclusion possible is they weren't intended for Poser or are just badly built figures. DAZ has built plenty of good figures in the past, but they didn't with this new figure. Sad, but true.

Quote -  Apollo, Antonia, and Brad scale wonderfully. The Kids4 do not.. Most of the morphforms for the kids just do not work in poser. The only conclusion possible is they weren't intended for Poser or are just badly built figures. DAZ has built plenty of good figures in the past, but they didn't with this new figure. Sad, but true.

I think you need to actually do some hands on apples to apples comparison similar to the one here:
http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=137495&start=200
before making more claims of that nature.

 The kids don't work worth a diddly in poser and are not made to. The other figures DO work really well because people made them to. Doesn't get simpler than that. If the kids 4 were intended for poser, they'd be badly built by that definition. I could really use Kids 4, but I'm not investing in DAZ studio to get them to work, so they are useless to me.

Poser figures that work IN poser IS apples to apples, IMO.

 quote by seanmartin "ou can see the Toddler as a trial balloon to weight the community's reaction."

Then what was Freak 4??  He didn't exactly work well in poser either!  he was the thin edge of the wedge.

Love esther