Quote - Wait, if I get an iPad I'm going to have to see ads on it?

Stupid Apple.

yup. and iTouch and iPhone.
built into the OS.

how it's going to be used shrug but ...

Quote - Sorry if you don't like that I don't like being told I can't do something with an item I've payed for,

Laurie

It  is not about what I like
it  is about The apparent reality of Apples strategy.

I personally Dont see the appeal of the Ipad
it is just an oversized Ipod touch..not even a real Laptop.

I am just amazed that people would complain about
the closed system of a $500 urban status symbol
poo-toy.
but happily purchase a $40,000+ Vehicle
from manufacturers that forces them to use their
$$vendors$$ for spare parts under threat warranty
violation .
But back to the subject.

Cheers

... which is precisely why I'm not bothering with the MaxiPad. It has no real function. It's a big toy. It's a precursor, I'm sure, for something else Mac has in mind.

Stay on topic guys

Quote - Stay on topic guys

I'm sure Vicky looks stunning on an iPad, but that's still not enough to buy one.

I dont render any of the Daz Figures except in animation demos.
I have Enough poser content to last the rest of my life.
the last "figure" I bought was THIS BIG GUY.
Ive not much use for human characters these days
certiainly not V-chick,

Cheers

Quote - Since we are tossing polygon numbers around...
A generic character in shrek had 60k polys for head/body/clothing and 760k for hair/fur.

Keep in mind that it's a generic character in a full-body image. The same article does not state the poly count for Shrek, but does say that Shrek had:

180 animation controls in Shrek's face
836 underlying "shapers" in Shrek's deformation system
585 body animation controls
90 muscles

Shrek wasn't a lightweight model. I haven't been able to find an article on the web that verifies that Jar Jar Binks had less polys than V4. The search results I got mixed in personal models of the character with game models and Clone Wars models.

One of the problems facing Poser figures is that the models are designed for all uses, whether it be a full body image that wouldn't need a large number of polygons or large textures.

I fall into the camp that mostly uses DAZ human figures because they have a greater level of support. When it comes to nonhuman figures, I'm more likely to use a Sixus1 figure or a nonDAZ figure because there are more choices outside of DAZ. I don't have a store bias. I'll use what fits into my vision rather than force myself to a specific usage.

There is definately a downside to having access to so much 3D content. Older Poser users are more likely to have learned modeling and texturing because they had no other choices. In some ways, that's bad because the average Poser user today is overall less technically proficient than a Poser users nearly a decade ago. Today's Poser/DS user can concentrate more on artistic creations than creating content. There's a bit of a balance there.

It's no sin not to master modeling and texturing. Look at the credits on any film with a lot of CGI and all the jobs are broken up into different specialties. The person animating a model isn't the same person that made the model or the same person that textured the model or the same person that rendered the model or the same person that created the backgrounds. There is more satisfaction in creating everything used in an image. There is still a lot of satisfaction in creating a good image even if all the parts of the image weren't made by the artist. A cook doesn't have to be a farmer to make a good meal (though the cook would be absolutely sure what's in the food if the cook grew it).

DAZ models are more popular simply because they developed a momentum early on when the native P4 models were comparatively primitive to Millennium characters that they developed a little later. That eventually created a market for those figures that nobody has broken yet. It doesn't mean it won't happen someday.

Quote - You basically gave three answers to your own question.  Poser is tied to Shade which is tied to anime which equates to non-sexy which results in old fogees still using Poser.

Just a quick note - Poser is not tied to Shade.  We have been owned by different companies for over 2 years now...

Quote - > Quote - You basically gave three answers to your own question.  Poser is tied to Shade which is tied to anime which equates to non-sexy which results in old fogees still using Poser.

Just a quick note - Poser is not tied to Shade.  We have been owned by different companies for over 2 years now...

Quote - > Quote - You basically gave three answers to your own question.  Poser is tied to Shade which is tied to anime which equates to non-sexy which results in old fogees still using Poser.

Just a quick note - Poser is not tied to Shade.  We have been owned by different companies for over 2 years now...

OT...... it's a huge sidetrack but I do have to make this remark. A while back we had a rather big topic where better communication was asked from the people of SM and a number of issues in the way that staff from SM/CP communicates with us.... or rather lacks communication. One of the issues was that the only time SM/CP people turn up is to set some record straight. Since that thread none of the staff has been around here much (or at all) and that has been quite a while now, over 6 weeks ago.

Now someone comes in again.... only to set the record straight..... there have been a lot of things that SM could have answered and threads that you could have participated in. After the usual silence, we all know who does help out as much as possible, when SM fails as usual. I do find this a bit disturbing, seems like all SM/CP staff is able to do these day, set the record straight and or make an announcement and then disappear again for 6 weeks or so.

Sorry to be so off topic, but I do find it kind of annoying, so I had to get it off my chest.

Quote - ... I was referring to having to pay for the item then still having the manufacturer that sold it to me to tell me what I can and can't have on it or what I can do with it. Simple as that. Sorry if you don't like that I don't like being told I can't do something with an item I've paid for, but I myself have a huge problem with it...

Laurie

Actually, so do I (have a huge problem with a company telling me what I can and can't do with something after I bought it). In the case of an OS, the makers of Windows get around that by telling me that I didn't actually buy a copy of Windows, I bought a licence and the licence has conditions that I agreed to on purchase (or actually have to agree on after purchase or I can't even use my purchase).
I guess what gets me is that we consider so normal and acceptable for software makers and content makers (who are protecting their intellectual property) to mete out severe conditions of use that a toaster maker or knitting needle manufacturer wouldn't dream of imposing. And it all boils down to money-making.

That is one reason I have gone with Linux for all non-Poser stuff... easy to use, and no one tells me what I can and can't do with it. In fact, they even give you the source code so if you're clued-up enough to improve the OS, have at it, go for your life. If you break it, you get to keep both pieces.

LOL Robyn. I wish I were that tech savvy, but I'm not...lol. I'd end up with the two pieces that I couldn't do anything with ;o).

Laurie

If you break it

don't you mean When?? I spent more time fixing ubuntu than actually using it... I gave up and reclaimed the space....

I've been using Ubuntu for the past 5 years... never had a lick of trouble with it. No, it's not Windows, any more than Blender is 3DSMax. Just what you get used to, I guess.

I guess your mileage may vary.

This thread has decided me though to finally have a look at other figures than V4. She's a known entity - not unlike Windoze - so people stick with what they know. Breaking out of the mould is always a challenge.

Good plan. There are a few to chose from ;o). Hope you don't mind minimal clothing tho, as that's the downside of not using Vicky...lol.

Laurie

Quote - Good plan. There are a few to chose from ;o). Hope you don't mind minimal clothing tho, as that's the downside of not using Vicky...lol.

Laurie

As you already know, I'm weird, so I always do things very differently. To convert clothing from V4 to, say, Terai Yuki 2 or Angela I'll probably import the clothing obj into Blender and tweak it there, then use Obj2Cr2 to make it conforming again, then use Morphing clothes for those final touches. So, I have tons of clothing for them... and the textures (Gc-ed and CoE-ed and stuff) are already saved as mt5s so it's all good.

Poser is a very involved (but highly stimulating) process for me... I make it so. Sometimes this view on life gets me in trouble: when people ask me what time it is, I tend to tell them how to build a clock. :biggrin:

just a quick note to say i see SM people here in the forums all the time.  iirc, just yesterday or so i saw efstarlet tell someone how to contact a staff member directly for help with technical problem. and most threads about Poser in general i've seen that haven't been simple kvetch fests (like this one- to be clearer, this one is an example of a thread that isn't just a kvetching thread) have had an SM employee in them.  Stefan pops into a threads on render optimization and materials every now and then (which i've seen as a bagginsbill follower), and i've seen Teyon ask about what people want in terms of figures quite frequently. 

otoh, i only see DAZ people here if they want to do damage control, but that's kind of to be expected.  it would be kind of discourteous for them to have a strong presence at a competitor's site.

" I spent more time fixing ubuntu than actually using it." 

But, but...on all the Linux sites I read how somebody's grandma installed Red Hat Enterprise in two hours and then hacked the kernel to control her walker.

my life with Ubuntu - well if the graphics card didnt' work (everything scrunched up into an interference pattern at the top of the screen), the soundcard wasn't working. I'd fix the soundcard, there'd be a kernel update and the soundcard would break. then I'd spend hours trying to get the machine to talk to the windows machines via samba... doing the same(!) things over and over again according to the instructions and it not working ...then suddenly it would. then the soundcard would break again. then the graphics did the top of the screen dance..

I gave up at that point.

Windows. it really just does Work.

I use openSUSE 11.2 myself-most everything Just Works.

I did have to get the driver from my scanner form the Epson website now, as they suddenly don't like including proprietary drivers in the distribution.  I'm just about to install 11.3 beta into a spare partition...

I just installed XP Pro on a laptop for a friend-almost 9 hours to install XP and all of the drivers and updates.  I can set up openSUSE in a bit more than an hour, and that's on my desktop where I need to do a bunch of symlinking as part of the setup (I should write a script to do it)...

I haven't tried Ubuntu in years because there is no root account.  There are some things you just can't do with sudo, like move your home directory, which I do as part of every install I do...

Pretty much why I went with Ubuntu - not only does Everything Just Work, but it Keeps On Working. I'm not a patient person, and get frustrated easily with Boring Things To Do. I think that is why Ubuntu appeals to me: when 45 minutes have gone by and your OS is installed, not only does the Internet work, but your camera works, your network printer has been found and installed and best of all all core apps you need like office and GIMP and even Blender are all in there ready to go.

LaurieA, thanks for the push to try something else - had a look at my downloads folder, and started to blush... Angela, Miki2, MayaDoll, Terai Yuki2 ... sheesh. And I haven't even tried Alyson!

This is embarassing.

We should do a support the non-Vs thread or something... lol

LOL...I'm guilty too ;o)

I've been meaning to do something with Maya Doll again. I haven't had her out for a very, very long time...hehe.

Laurie

There are some very good textures for the G2 figures.Not much good free stuff though. I have several textures by Cyllan, she does some of the best texture work in Poserdom.  I also have some very nice characters for the G2 ladies by APDI. There is good material for them, but you have to search for it, and pay for it.

I've remapped a couple of the G2 figures, so that they can use V3 textures.
dph

 I use the DAZ figures over the default Poser figures for several reasons:

1. The DAZ figures are more realistic-looking than the Poser figures
2. The DAZ figures have more built-in morphs/morph add-ons than the Poser figures
3. There is more development that goes into the DAZ figures which makes them more versatile than the Poser figures
4. There is a better track history of improvements from generation to generation of the DAZ figures than the Poser figures (Brand recognition: Michael & Victoria have some standard of quality associated with them)
5. The DAZ figures have more content available for them than the Poser figures
6. The DAZ figures bend and pose better than the Poser figures
7. With the exception of a few figures like Apollo Maximus and Antonia, the DAZ figures have very little competition in terms of realism, especially not from the Poser figures
8. The Poser figures have been tied to additional capabilities such as Face Room which can give decent results, but only with a lot of effort.  Very few people want to go through the effort when the default figure is so ugly (unhuman looking) to start with.

Personally, I think that if it's desired for the Poser figures to be more aesthetic and user friendly, perhaps SM should consider contracting out to Zygote as the source for their human models.  Which would be ironic considering that DAZ originated from Zygote.

None of the figures available is truly fantastic, and all of them have problems. 3rd Generation Daz have macaroni shoulders that look disastrous, even morphed, without clothing. But their faces are lovely. Poser 6+ figures have better upper bodies, but the legs are weird and the faces are OOOGLY as sin itself. M4 still has problem shoulders but they're improved vastly, particularly with a few well placed morphs. But rendering several of him in a scene kills my machine. V4 has better shoulders, but they are narrow and even with tiny breasts she looks too well endowed to relax her arms at her sides because her chest is too wide for her narrow little shrugged shoulders. None of them has good legs, particularly in the hip joint, except Antonia, whose legs are the best I've seen. Apollo has a very natural but stocky looking body, but there's something weird about the eyes I can't get rid of no matter how hard I try.

So they all have pros and cons. In the end, then it's which works best for which scene. IE: I'd never use a 3rd generation Daz creation for a nude scene. Never. Urgh. But for a close up portrait. Yes!

The availability of supporting products is also a key factor.

In the end, though, I'm not sure, when it comes to midrange, multiple figures in a scene, that anyone has done better than M2 and V2. But the attempt to make figures that do everything for everyone looks like it's backfired. And It's kinda been downhill from there.

Edited to answer the OP's original question. It's a good one.

Poser figures are ugly out of the box. I hate to say it, but the market agrees. They're ugly. They just are. You have to fiddle for a long time before you get something that looks nice. And who wants to fiddle for a long time with something that starts off ugly unless you want it to end up ugly too?

Okay, a lot of people. But probably not most people. Particularly not impatient people. And poser users are going to include a lot of impatient people. I'm one of them. If I weren't impatient, I'd just draw the figures myself, after all.

good posts guys

When I first got Poser I complained that the G2 figures were too pretty. I spent a lot of time uglifying them in the face room with asymmetrical morphs to make them look more like real people and not fashion models.

I do find face room support extremely useful for quickly giving a figure a different look, and I wish all figures had it.  Hundreds of head morphs are all well and good, but it takes time to learn every morph set well enough to get the effect I want without spending a lot of time. I use the face room as a short cut.

I am slowly getting a feeling for which characters work best for a particular type of scene.  To get rid of that inbred look where they all seem to share the same gene pool, it helps a lot to use characters from different sources, with different base meshes. Diversity is what I need, and I am prepared to spend money to get it, but I quite enjoy fiddling. I really appreciate the low-res figures, and I wish that Alyson and Ryan's low-res versions were truly low-res. At around 40000 polygons, they are still a lot heavier than needed. V4 and M4 also don't have low-res versions and in spite of the many polygons, there is a sameness about characters made using them, which is very hard to get rid of.

I just wanted to pop in and say that my recent experience developing a "realistic" Poser figure has shed some light on do's and do not's of modeling for Poser. I've been modeling for a long time but only recently have I been in a position to see any of that stuff put in motion. Many of my techniques and choices in topology are great for still shots but I have discovered are not so great for a figure in motion. Perhaps the modelers who came before me had to deal with a similar situation and didn't have the opportunity to delve into how to fix it? I can only guess. That's why I'm always popping in to find out what the user wants - because when the gloves finally come off and I'm allowed to use what I've learned, I expect my next model is going to be a step towards a better looking while moving figure, as that is something we always strive for.

I personally find threads like this one very interesting. While it doesn't really tackle the core of the solution, it does bring to light general opinion on the problem. This is stuff I pay attention to and in turn, relay back to my superiors who may not be able to visit. So for anyone who thinks the people behind Poser don't hop in here, you're wrong. We may not always join in the conversations but we are always viewing, reading and digesting what's being said. Sometimes changes are made based on it and sometimes not but there's almost always some dialog about what we've come across in the forums. 

Anyway, continue on. Sorry to derail things. Bad ex-mod! Bad! BAD! NO FOOD FOR YOU TEYON! :)

 The reason I don't use V4 as much is because of realism. Sure V4 may be realistic in an olympian sort of way or like a Sports Illustrated swimsuit model, but the reality is that very few people in the world look like that. In trying to make down to earth real people, the Poser figures, especially those of Poser 8 really shine.

I really don't understand that comment. The generation four figures have a lot of body morphs to allow you to do almost anything with the figure. The poser people have three unless that changed with the more recent ones. To be honest, I haven't used them past an initial look but G2 definitely had three morphs only and that isn't really enough to do much of anything. Especially when they bend as poorly as they do, breaking any realism that they might have had.

 The Poser 8 figures come with almost as many morphs as the Paid morph packages for other characters. And while it is true, the Daz figures have more morphs, and you can do almost anything with them, you can't get around some things that are built into the model. V4's legs are too long, her hips to tall and her torso is too short. There are some morphs that can change a few of these aspects, but then no costumes support them, so that means you are limited to nudes.

The Poser 8 figures have more realistic body proportions from the start. They look like average everyday people, as opposed to Greek gods. On the other side, the Poser 8 characters are not as easy to fit into the Nordic super model body type that V4 excels at, but that is, in my view, the biggest limitation to V4 as well.

It looks like they finally added some morphing ability, that is good.

I would disagree that the Poser 8 figures are an improvement over the G2 line.  There may be more morphs, but the basic shape of the figure, especially the face, is unrealistic.  Hopefully the  upcoming Miki 3 will be better - the Miki line has always been a little more realistic than their other figures.

ok define realistic in a face?

seriously.

right off all poser faces are unrealistic. ever the one you have as an avatar there Papabluemartin.

why? simple. it's symmetrical. all the models suffer from this, yes even the daz figures.

so. fix that then we can move on to point 2: not everyone has the same face. which if you look at the sheer amount of Daz figures used, you'd think so. not realistic at all. we don't all have the same base structure to our faces.

leading into point 3 : so the G2 figures don't look 'realistic' in your eyes. what about my eyes? or fred over there's eyes? etc?

it gets a little old everyone when you constantly bash a figure line because you personally don't like it.

Bashing is a very strong word here.  It just reflects how much these forums have changed over the past years.  Everyone is entitled to their preferences whether you agree or not.  Negative feedback is certainly used by developers to improve the poser figures from one generation to the other.

To clarify, my main point was about the Poser 8 figures, not the G2 figures.  I think that the G2 figures that nice faces, but awkward, and somewhat overly perfected, bodies.  It is true that human beings do not all have the same face structure.  My point was that I do not think the Poser 8 figures have sufficient "realism" in their faces.

I was going to post an answer.

I wrote it out. a long one.

then I realised. there's no point. no one will listen. things will carry on exactly as they are.

in six months there will be another thread like this. the same arguements just different words.

it's all pointless and I have better things to do that retread this path.

like model and render stuff.

end of my participation in this thread.

  Several years ago I recall someone creating left/right asymmetry morphs for Vicky's face in an attempt to create a more realistic face. I do not remember if it was V1, 2, or 3 though

Quote -
  Several years ago I recall someone creating left/right asymmetry morphs for Vicky's face in an attempt to create a more realistic face. I do not remember if it was V1, 2, or 3 though

Actually you can do that by splitting the morph and giving slightly different values to each side. Most people don't use that feature though.

Laurie

And there, folks, is the issue. We dont delve into the inherent possibilities attendant to these characters. We want a finished piece right out of the box. Dork doesnt look real enough? Hey, never mind that the mesh has the capability of realism of you work with it enough -- it's gotta happen RIGHT NOW. It's as though the entire purpose of the program is irrelevant because of all the ready-mades available for it. Need a character in a particular pose? Why bother working it out for yourself when there's fourteen thousand pose packs out there, all available for sale, to do it for you?

Every character mesh has potential. But you sometimes have to work with it to get there.

 That's the post of the day right there! Go back in time and you always find some example of people creating great images even with Poser 4 or V2 or whatever character. It can be done by those willing to experiment, play and have fun with all this.

Quote - And there, folks, is the issue. We dont delve into the inherent possibilities attendant to these characters. We want a finished piece right out of the box. Dork doesnt look real enough? Hey, never mind that the mesh has the capability of realism of you work with it enough -- it's gotta happen RIGHT NOW. It's as though the entire purpose of the program is irrelevant because of all the ready-mades available for it. Need a character in a particular pose? Why bother working it out for yourself when there's fourteen thousand pose packs out there, all available for sale, to do it for you?

Every character mesh has potential. But you sometimes have to work with it to get there.

Poserizing Stephen Dillane
WIP: Poserizing Richard Armitage
WIP #2: Poserizing Sine'ad Cusack
Are YOU talking to ME?!
Hey Mister! Looking for a good time?

The answer is pretty simple: DAZ figures have more content for them. Sure, you can create your own content for other figures, in which case you probably become less and less satisfied with what Poser has to offer and gravitate towards stronger 3d drug.

Quote - The answer is pretty simple: DAZ figures have more content for them. Sure, you can create your own content for other figures, in which case you probably become less and less satisfied with what Poser has to offer and gravitate towards stronger 3d drug.

No, I don't.  Long live Posette!
dph

dphoadley: Well, like I said - probably :)

Mr. Hoadley is, um....unique...LOLOL. ;o)

Laurie

With all the problems using Daz models in Poser , they are becoming a whole lot less popular with me.    ****
I do not care how well they work in DAZ, I use POSER.

*"Mr. Hoadley is, um....unique...LOLOL. ;o)

Laurie"

*No, he is not at all.
 

Posettte is my girlfriend too...you know.....

Just wondering what kind of problems since I use them with not much issue on a daily basis.