Hi!

This morning I was reading a thread by joepublic and now after work I wanted to continue reading it, however I cant find it any more.

Has it been moved somewhere or what?

Original link:
www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php

Yes it was removed :)

 Hi, jonnybode,

Yes, the thread has been moved, as it degenerated from an actual topical conversation to a thread of back-and-forth insults.  We can't have that in the forum, so, rather than cull the thread (which would have broken it for you and the rest of the members) of the offending posts, the thread was removed.

Jeni

not to hijack this thread but i missed the news on your baby Jen

Thanks for your interest, johnnybody.

Just the usual : "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" Rendo routine.

I even placed a bet with a friend if the thread would be deleted or just locked.

I won. :-)

As they say, “You shouldn't try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and it annoys the pig.”

Justice has been served and authority has been restored.
We now wait breathlessly for the next revelation of our current board genius and will again wonder how we ever managed before.

So nothing to see here, citizen, move along...

Kitties!

So it was removed totally from the face of the earth?
Didnt get a chanse to read the whole thread but apart from one troll in the beginning I saw nothing major offensive.

I have seen far worse threads ending up locked but never removed, a bit sad this.

 No, it was not removed from the face of the earth, just from the public forum.  We don't delete threads, we just remove them from the forum.

If ANYONE has a complaint about a post, poster, or anything else that goes on, bring it to a staff member.  DO NOT RETALIATE.  I will not have it in this forum, and members are to conduct themselves in a constructive and respectful manner at all times.  This goes for everyone.  If you feel someone is conducting themselves otherwise, bring it to a staff member, we will deal with it.  There are currently links at the top of the forum to FIVE staff members.  There is no excuse not to contact at least one of us when you have a problem.

Ok thx for the explanation, and I agree with retaliate part, if we cant even be nice to each other in the forums then were will the world end?

At least LostinSpacemans Kitten brings something cute to the forum :-)

"If ANYONE has a complaint about a post, poster, or anything else that goes on, bring it to a staff member.  DO NOT RETALIATE."

Yeah, can't have grown ups actually sorting things out among themselves.

So if you get trolled, run home to mommy and snitch, cause mommy is the only one allowed to bitch.

If she feels like it.

And of course only as long as the person trolling isn't one of her little favorites.

It was an INFORMATIONAL thread I started to show up an alternative to the current "From now on, this is the only proper way to do things in Poser" gospel.

And all went well until the fanbois and -gurls stormed in picking postings apart and trying to score for points and setting me straight because I might have said "sumpin' bad about our Ted"

But hey, if that's what you want, fine.

I won't try to share anything I learned during the last ten years I worked with Poser almost daily in public anymore lest it might endanger the official party line and disturb the peace.

Another proverb comes to mind.
It also includes suidae and gemstones produced by oysters.

Why does it seem to make you so mad that people listen to BB at all? Have you got something personal against the guy? Does it harm you in some way? So what that he comes off as abrasive - so do you...lol. I've personally got a thicker skin when it comes to myself, but I don't like seeing someone being nasty toward others. Why can't you all calm down and just agree to disagree? I just don't understand this open hostility thing...it's getting tiring.

(edit): in the essence of keeping a thread constructive... I personally like to tinker. I try to understand all about the nodes and what they do, I just can't get a grip on it yet. I'd like to know though. Not because it will make my images look better or worse, but for no other reason than I'd like to know...lol. And knowing many different ways to do the same thing is always good. I've got nothing against it ;o).

Laurie

 Joe, I'm gonna go ahead and point out that my post was aimed at you.  You seemed to have the problems with everyone giving you answers to your problem that weren't easy.  The thread degenerated because people don't like being berated for offering help, and people don't like it when things they say are taken out of context.  

You'll attract more butterflies with honey, but if all you've put out is a bowl of vinegar, you'll get gnats.

I'm gonna take Joe's side on this one. He started his thread asking that nobody post until he had all of his examples posted. In jumps fanboi number one saying basically Nyah Nyah! I don't have to wait! and pissing in the wind. Frankly nobody ever gave him a chance to lay out what he was saying as clearly as he could before jumping down his back side. Both sides went ballistic, but it wasn't Joe who started it! And for the record, the veiled threat near the end was the only really TOSable post that I saw and it wasn't from Joe.

Quote - Why does it seem to make you so mad that people listen to BB at all? Have you got something personal against the guy? Does it harm you in some way? So what that he comes off as abrasive - so do you...lol.

I don't think it made Joe angry that people listen to BB. It's how they emulate his posting style most likely. Telling people their artistic efforts are worthless unless they're technically correct is pretty offensive and tactless. There are better ways of saying "Your work could be improved" than by telling someone their stuff is crap.

I missed the last several posts :(  It was shaping up to be a fun one :tt2:

I remember some really great ones with Xeno, Pengi, Connie, Joe, Sean, all the great battlers. What ever happened to Xeno? does anyone know?

I missed the threats in the thread I guess. Joe has alot of knowledge too and he may not agree with everyone ,but has a right to his viewpoint.

The thread was getting a bit adversarial though.

Cheers.

*"but I don't like seeing someone being nasty toward others"

*My sentiments exactly. I think what rankles some certainly me is when some people get a pass on that. The same standards should apply to everyone from the newest member to the grizzle veterans. From Larry Weinberg on down, there have been scores of people who have made huge contributions to this crazy thing called Poser. With remarkably few exceptions, they all have expressed themselves in a courteous and respectful manner to everyone. That is what has made this "community," on the whole a fun place to be. Respect should not be based on accomplishments alone, nor generosity, it should also be based on how you treat other people. I simply do not understand how people can minimize or dismiss rudeness on the part of some while demanding good behavior from others. It has nothing to do with personal animosity and everything to do with deploring a double standard whose effect is so insidious that the denial of its very existence has become a cottage industry.. 

Every time we ignore, condone or sadly even praise discourtesy, we not only damage ourselves and the community, we are not doing the person involved any favors either, only validating their behavior. We do it every time we give a pass to the politician who slanders his opponent - because we voted for him. We do it when we overlook the surly athlete -  because by God, the kid's got a hell of an arm and he's gonna win the big one for us. We can excuse it and justify it to ourselves as much as we want but it still doesn't make it right. Every time we move the goalposts of empathy and simple politeness to favor our team, we destroy a little bit more of what it means to be a civil society and Lord knows the internet has only made it worse  Each little drop of acidic vinegar, whether from a a lowly drone or the queen corrodes the hive. I suppose with bees, the queen is the only thing that matters but with people it should be different, though sadly and all to often, it is not. And we wonder why after a few million years, we're still cutting each others throats.

"I simply do not understand how people can minimize or dismiss rudeness on the part of some while demanding good behavior from others."

Agreed, I hope that goes for all the slimy behind the scenes worms spreading their vitriol as well. Cause personally I would take someone being rude and telling me I'm full of it to my face any day to the other. Alot cleaner and more honorable in my book.

Would that everything could be all sunshine and flowers, but I dont think thats going to happen.

 Ok, seriously guys, the personal attacks (yes, picking someone out to criticize ONLY them is a personal attack) needs to end.  Period.  THE END.  

Here are things you ALL need to realize.  

Until today, I was off being hellaciously pregnant (and then having my son).

In the time I was off, there were THREE staff members.  To handle the entirety of the gallery and the forum, which seriously sometimes feels like herding cats.  There is ABSOLUTELY no way the three of them were able to do their gallery work AND read every single post on every single thread, or be online all the time.  Two out of the three staff members who have been here the last few months are also UNPAID.

Which is why we have repeatedly asked that if you have a problem with a post or a poster to CONTACT A STAFF MEMBER.  Sometimes, the problem is little more than a misunderstanding, and we can help you understand the missed communication.  Sometimes, there is a problem, and WE will step in if it is necessary.  But, seriously, this back-and-forth bickering needs to stop.  

On the one hand, yes, I'm really over the attacking, and the b.s.  On the other hand, there are some people, myself included, who are mistaken for being "rude" when they are being blunt.  Some of you who accuse other members of being rude do the same thing on occasion.  Should the rest of us point our fingers in your direction, and call you rude when you're simply being straight and to the point?  No, and I don't think it's fair of anyone to do it to others.  Some people communicate to the point.  It's not rudeness.  It turns into defensiveness when one is continually attacked for being blunt.  This is not a new phenomenon, and not focused at any one individual.  But, you guys need to SERIOUSLY stop freaking out at each other in the forums.  Just because I'm not around doesn't meant there's not other staff to take care of things.  Use them, abuse them, and make them work 

And I might add that this is not my native language, so my usual eloquence and subtelty might suffer a bit because of that.

Poser makes many people happy (me included) because it frees our imagination, and the last thing it needs is people running around creating arbitrary "rules" everyone has to follow or else they will be ridiculed.

But enough of that.

As I just feel all warm and fuzzy inside, let's have an all warm and fuzzy render.
(Of course without any trace of GC, VSS or IDL and using my patented "one size fits all" lightset.)

;-)

Jen,

I did a lot of web surfing when my kids were tiny-right hand on the mouse, left hand holding the little one while they ate. Hard to type one-handed, tho'. 

Good times they were...

Quote - Jen,

I did a lot of web surfing when my kids were tiny-right hand on the mouse, left hand holding the little one while they ate. Hard to type one-handed, tho'. 

Good times they were...

Heh...VERY hard to type one handed, lol.  I think I'm getting good at it, though ;)

Quote - I'm gonna take Joe's side on this one. He started his thread asking that nobody post until he had all of his examples posted. In jumps fanboi number one saying basically Nyah Nyah! I don't have to wait! and pissing in the wind. Frankly nobody ever gave him a chance to lay out what he was saying as clearly as he could before jumping down his back side. Both sides went ballistic, but it wasn't Joe who started it! And for the record, the veiled threat near the end was the only really TOSable post that I saw and it wasn't from Joe.

You're spinning it with the very favoritism you claim to despise.

Joe and others accuse me repeatedly of being rude and demanding, and have repeatedly asserted that I tell people their renders are crap. But there are no actual quotes or links to threads. It's all gossip.

We never got to discuss GC. I was being attacked and still am in this thread now and the subject of color management was out the window.

I'm really not getting why there are so many lies about how I handle people, particularly new users.

Go read this recent thread:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=3617762

JIMMYJOHN just joined recently and couldn't get good results. He had some very common problems that lots of Poser users encounter.

By page 2, he had this to say:

Quote - Courtney, your VSS script, your shader and the earlier crazy light set, just to show the difference.
Day and night! Unbelievable!
Now, thanks to your lesson I can start messing around.
I have learned more in a couple of hours than in the previous months.

There was no rudeness in any of it. He described common problems that are solved with proper shaders and GC. I'm not at all sure why I should be expected to teach people to solve the problems by futzing with lights or postwork or all the other techniques that are actually slower.

If you want to teach people your ways, please do. So far, I haven't seen anybody else take on and solve a problem in a thread the way I did there.

I dont find bagginsbill rude, nor do I find Joe rude (most of the time) I find them straight forward. Strong personalities perhaps, but something I can understand. For me it is much easier to understand this type of speaking, than trying to wade through inuindo and flowery speach. Some might not appreciate a blunt person. me I would rather hear "oh you're full of crap, here is where you went wrong" than trying to figure out what the meaning of some flowery speach is. (Is that a guy thing?) Debate can get out of hand but without it things will quickly stagnate.

When I first joined (not that long ago) there seemed to be much more debate of matters than currently. People drift away I guess. Or perhaps its not allowed anymore?  I miss those days.

Personal attacks however, become irritating. Especially when they are not in the open.

Cheers.

Quote - "If ANYONE has a complaint about a post, poster, or anything else that goes on, bring it to a staff member.  DO NOT RETALIATE."

Yeah, can't have grown ups actually sorting things out among themselves.

So if you get trolled, run home to mommy and snitch, cause mommy is the only one allowed to bitch.

If she feels like it.

And of course only as long as the person trolling isn't one of her little favorites.

It was an INFORMATIONAL thread I started to show up an alternative to the current "From now on, this is the only proper way to do things in Poser" gospel.

And all went well until the fanbois and -gurls stormed in picking postings apart and trying to score for points and setting me straight because I might have said "sumpin' bad about our Ted"

But hey, if that's what you want, fine.

I won't try to share anything I learned during the last ten years I worked with Poser almost daily in public anymore lest it might endanger the official party line and disturb the peace.

Another proverb comes to mind.
It also includes suidae and gemstones produced by oysters.

Sorry to see I missed it. Your posts are some of the most informative I've seen and I have learned from every one of them as I carefully lurk in the shadows here.

Quote - > Quote - I'm gonna take Joe's side on this one. He started his thread asking that nobody post until he had all of his examples posted. In jumps fanboi number one saying basically Nyah Nyah! I don't have to wait! and pissing in the wind. Frankly nobody ever gave him a chance to lay out what he was saying as clearly as he could before jumping down his back side. Both sides went ballistic, but it wasn't Joe who started it! And for the record, the veiled threat near the end was the only really TOSable post that I saw and it wasn't from Joe.

You're spinning it with the very favoritism you claim to despise.

No I'm not! I simply stated the facts! Joe had all of one post asking for others to wait til he presented his examples and Kai jumped in with his remarks. Nowhere did I mention you at all. I avoided naming names but apparently if I don't you just assume I'm talking about you. And I have no idea what made you think I claim to dispise favoritism. I've made no such statements. Joe has.

LostinSpaceman, if you're not talking about me, but you say you're taking Joe's side, and he was and is talking about me, then you are being incredibly unclear.

The fact is that Joe and others accused me of bullying, calling people's work crap, and of promoting GC for reasons having to do with affiliation with SM. These are allegations for which ZERO evidence has been produced. If you side with these guys, then you add to the bullshit. They are obviously feeding off of each other's postings.

And worse we now have other people explaining that my being blunt is fine. But here's the thing. This is a myth! Regarding GC, I have never been blunt. I have been patient, and explained the same things over and over. I demonstrate how it works, why it works, and also how and when it exposes problems with bad shaders and what to do about it. All of this writing has been characterized as bullying by a handful of posters, and it is nonsense.

When you say you're on the side of one of these posters, it doesn't matter what you meant, it appears you're supporting the personal attacks, attacks which have little to no basis in reality.

Oh, and LostinSpaceman, you're being disingenuous and you know it.

People use words. These words have explicit meanings as well as providing implied context and secondary meanings.

You used the word "fanboi" here:

Quote - In jumps fanboi number one saying basically Nyah Nyah! I don't have to wait! and pissing in the wind.

So, why that word choice, then? You really don't see the connection between that word and an opposition to favoritism. Are you claiming you don't know what that word means? If so, why did you use it?

Quote - LostinSpaceman, if you're not talking about me, but you say you're taking Joe's side, and he was and is talking about me, then you are being incredibly unclear.

The fact is that Joe and others accused me of bullying, calling people's work crap, and of promoting GC for reasons having to do with affiliation with SM. These are allegations for which ZERO evidence has been produced. If you side with these guys, then you add to the bullshit. They are obviously feeding off of each other's postings.

And worse we now have other people explaining that my being blunt is fine. But here's the thing. This is a myth! Regarding GC, I have never been blunt. I have been patient, and explained the same things over and over. I demonstrate how it works, why it works, and also how and when it exposes problems with bad shaders and what to do about it. All of this writing has been characterized as bullying by a handful of posters, and it is nonsense.

When you say you're on the side of one of these posters, it doesn't matter what you meant, it appears you're supporting the personal attacks, attacks which have little to no basis in reality.

I'll say you are patient. You never told me to grow a brain or something like that when I was having boneheaded problems with VSS. I really appreciate how you take the time to explain things and even just whip up a shader for  just random ideas that people come up with.

I missed the thread in question so I have no clue what was said. but from what I have seen BB is not rude.

 sigh 
Rather than let this turn into a back-and-forth "Defend Yourself" thread, I just want to point out....

Sometimes, all you can do is say "No, I didn't mean, that, you're taking me out of context".  This is the internet, where you can reach a lot more people to tell them something than you could if you stood out on the corner of your street.  The great thing is more people get the information.  The bad thing is people often read a tone into one's posts that just isn't there, and they base their opinion on you because of their perception, not the reality of who you are.  It happens to everyone, unfortunately.  Sometimes, all you can do is hit the red X in the top right corner of your screen, get up from the computer, and do something else.  Wanting to defend yourself is a natural response, but sometimes it's a fruitless effort.  Sometimes, people already have their mind made up about you, and you'd have to rescue a penniless orphanage where they were raising puppies and kittens for them to change their minds about you.  That is, unfortunately, the way of the internet.  Where the more verbose you are, the higher your chances of having to apologize for nothing in particular.

Quote - ... Sometimes, people already have their mind made up about you, and you'd have to rescue a penniless orphanage where they were raising puppies and kittens for them to change their minds about you....

Nah, doesn't work.  Somewhere in the top 5 rules of life is "You can't please everyone, so don't try.".

 If you wish to convey to someone how wrong they are, please do so via sitemail and NOT THE FORUM.

Jeni

"These are allegations for which ZERO evidence has been produced."

Because it's being deleted by the moderators when posted.

 Read your sitemail.  I'm not gonna have back-and-forth bickering in the forum.  It's ridiculous.  TAKE IT TO SITEMAIL.  

Everyone does stupid things.  Does this mean that, every time it happens, you should be inundated with every dumb thing you've ever done?  At some point, ya gotta freakin' drop it instead of holding EVERYTHING against EVERYONE.  Sheesh.

Quote - LostinSpaceman, if you're not talking about me, but you say you're taking Joe's side, and he was and is talking about me, then you are being incredibly unclear.

Dude I was very clear. I was talking about "Who Started the Shit" in the thread that got deleted. Period. That's where I was on Joe's side. He didn't start it in that thread. Someone else did. Is that clear enough for you?

Quote - Oh, and LostinSpaceman, you're being disingenuous and you know it.

People use words. These words have explicit meanings as well as providing implied context and secondary meanings.

You used the word "fanboi" here:

Quote - In jumps fanboi number one saying basically Nyah Nyah! I don't have to wait! and pissing in the wind.

So, why that word choice, then? You really don't see the connection between that word and an opposition to favoritism. Are you claiming you don't know what that word means? If so, why did you use it?

You're really reaching here to make that connection. Talk about disingenuous. You said I "Claimed" to dispise favoritism. I did not. Period. End of Story.

Look. I know you and I haven't seen eye to eye in the past and I know you're pissed at Joe at the moment but separate the issues here. I wasn't taking his side against YOU I was taking his side against JEN for the rabble rousing in his thread. Not any other thread. It was just about the one that got removed. Ok? Can we just peace out and go on our merry ways now? I wasn't bashing you. It wasn't my intention. Peace.

Yes, peace please. Everyone please get over it already! FFS...

Laurie

Quote - Everyone does stupid things.  Does this mean that, every time it happens, you should be inundated with every dumb thing you've ever done? 

Indeed-that's sort of a problem with the Internet that everything can be recalled and pasted in.

I once Googled my name, and found stuff I'd written in Usenet groups in 1991.   Said a few silly things back then, too.

Note: For younger folks, Usenet was the main way Internet discussion was done before the World Wide Web was invented.  It still exists, but it has become a backwater.

*"It still exists, but it has become a backwater." *

Ah, good old alt.binaries.pictures.erotica...At least that's what I heard, I never actually went there.

Usenet does have a sweet feature called a kill filter. Lacking that here, we best ignore posts by those we consider too blunt or flowery for our tastes or at least resolve not to comment on them. So resolved. And no, my fingers are not crossed behind my back - well maybe just a little.

 As a veteran of forums (fora?) chatrooms, noticeboards etc. it's always amused and amazed me how differently people react when there is no physical interaction, just virtual.    Now I'm not going to preach that I've always been a good boy, I had my share of flame wars before I grew up, but here's the thing...  Take a step back and think to yourself "if this guy/gal was in the room here with me for real would I say these things to his/her face?"
It's very easy to abuse people when there are no "real" consequences, sorta like hiding behind a wall and tossing a brick at someone then running away.  It ain't big, it ain't clever, and it sure as hell ain't civilized.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Peace out.

Quote -  Read your sitemail.  I'm not gonna have back-and-forth bickering in the forum.  It's ridiculous.  TAKE IT TO SITEMAIL.  

Everyone does stupid things.  Does this mean that, every time it happens, you should be inundated with every dumb thing you've ever done?  At some point, ya gotta freakin' drop it instead of holding EVERYTHING against EVERYONE.  Sheesh.

OK I'm confused now. Whom is that one directed at?

And yea I've been online ever since the good old Usenet days myself. Still use it for some specialized groups.
And no, it hasn't changed much, some people are apparently cowardly a-holes as soon as they're online, while most know how to conduct themselves. The first is what we commonly call trolls.