A remark I made in another thread made me wonder...

Do people who buy "POSER" content expect it to work flawlessly in another program? (specifically DazStudio?)

When I make something, be it a freebie or something for sale, I make it for Poser.. I use Poser procedural textures whenever I can and I incorporate Poser-specific stuff like dynamic hair or -cloth whenever applicable.

I'm also selling/giving it away as POSER stuff.

Yet quit a few people apparently expects it to work in Daz Studio as well. Which it MIGHT - depending on what it is, but most of the textures sure won't and anything dynamic definitely won't.

So am I stupid by clinging to Poser ((as I've been told by one of my friends who swears to DS) or what? Does anyone know the ratio of DS/Poser users? I guess there's a large overlap.

To make an analogy.. would people using Blender expect anything made for Max or Lightwave work in their free program only because it's also a 3D program?

And no there's NOTHING wrong with using free programs! If I'd gotten into the 3D world today, I'd probably be embracing DS and scoffing at Poser LOL

You'll always see the DS camps and the Poser camps blazing away at each other... just one of those things, TGrrrl. Make for whoever inspires you.

If there are Poser procedural textures in the item, well, the DS users can do what I do with a lot of mesh: do my own textures. The mesh will work in either programme, the imageMaps will work in either programme, and I'd be dad-blamed if I'm going to try to learn Eilir or Shader-Mixer (I tried - I really did, but documentation is worse than what's available for the Poser mat room!) or any of that nonsense to try to make users of the current generation of DS happy: there are so many flavours of DS out there that you're not going to satisfy them all.

 Yea that's one thing that put me off DS for good.. the thing that some feature isn't necessarily compatible with newer versions. I even bought some of the early plugins while I was still trying to whole heartily support DS (back when DS came out I wrote a review that was even featured on daz's site about how much better DS was compared to Poser 5. Then came Poser6 with point lights, the major feature I'd been admiring at DS.. and.. I went back to Poser, never REALLY looking back.

So it's not that I have anything against DS or DS users.It's just that I don't want to jump to a lot of hoops to cater for a program I do not personally use. And yea I'm losing customers from that.. but... where do i draw the line otherwise + as RV said, there's so many VERSIONS of DS out there... I wouldn't even know which one is the newest.

I'd love to know the ratio of DS/Poser users though. If there's 2/3 Poser/DS users for instance, I'm seriously shooting myself in the foot by only catering for Poser users...

Poser user here and probably will remain so. Right now, I'm trying to learn D|S Shader Builder, but I fear it will be a bit like learning Latin ;o). And I was silly enough to think Poser's material room was hard...lol.

Anyway, while I'd like to be able to cater to everybody, it's probably going to be that my things will remain strickly Poser, at least for now. It's nothing personal, it's just that it's Poser that I know.

Laurie

I stopped providing support for DS when they came out with DS 3 and the base version isn't compatible with ANYTHING, even previous versions of DS.  I let people know up front that my products haven't been tested in DS and I don't provide support for DS.  If I lose customers, so be it.

I try to make geometry that works in both Poser and Daz studio. I try to make stuff with a useable uv map so people can make their own textures. After that I make for Poser and try to make it Poser 5 compatible.

This thread is making me think of something: what happens next if daz decides that V5/M5 are only going to work well with D/S?

Quote - This thread is making me think of something: what happens next if daz decides that V5/M5 are only going to work well with D/S?

Use Antonio and Brad ... (K4 is not Poser friendly).

Stay with V4 and work on her mesh? Overall, she's got a lot of promise, but there's a lot that can be improved. However, it would take rigging knowledge, which I don't have. Meshing, I only have a bit of, though I've learned a lot from this thread on poles and loops, which I think play a major role in how mesh deforms.

I know that Daz wouldn't shoot itself in the other foot by making Daz-only figures. The Poser market is not inconsequential.

Most of my products are D/S and Poser compatible. Some of my products use poser shaders, then I put a note with the product. Also with a few products, DS3 gave me errors on the mesh, while every other product didn't. If that happens, I'm not going to bother trying to find a solution for DS. DS still has flaws and some of are in the mesh import department. As long as DAZ doesn't fix these, DS is users will miss out, it's as simple as that. I'm not going to bother getting my products DS compatible, if DAZ isn't bothered to fix issues. Most stuff works, but some more complicated meshes will cause trouble in DS and I'm not going to spent hours trying to find workarounds for DS errors.

I have not really seen a difference in sales when a product is DS compatible or not. It doesn't seem to matter much.

Quote - This thread is making me think of something: what happens next if daz decides that V5/M5 are only going to work well with D/S?

I would really applaud that! It simply means that we will see really talented people fill the void that will come from that and be free from DAZ's crippling hold on the figure market.

I have a beta tester team, and they have several versions of Poser and DAZ Studio. I test my models in P6 and DS3, then pass it to the beta team. They test everything, report the bugs and I fix them. It is better to give your article for free to a beta tester team that having returns.

Many people use DS because it's free, and easier to use. So I make my products compatible for it. But always say "for Poser 6 and up and DS 3 and up", because dealing with previous versions is a pain.

Coplanar facets and other things in geometry give problems. Other times, there are other things that create bugs. Having a programming background, I am specially good detecting bugs and why they are caused, so I usually have intuition on why they happened and fix them easily.

If a mesh is perfectly modeled, without coplanar facets, and the Poser files are ok, it will render right. But finding the cause of problems sometimes is hard, and other times it is solved simply doing things in a different way.

Also, the material presets and mat poses are different because Poser defaults to metal and DS to plastic in the render. You must do the mat presets equivalent for DAZ for all your mat poses.

Actually, the MATS are what I  was referring to Jordi :o). I know absolutely nothing about D|S's shaders...not even enough to make something shiny or reflective. When I pull something I've done in Poser into D|S it looks nothing alike and yet, D|S's Shader system is so confusing compared to Poser's that I can't even fix it. And for the foreseeable future, I won't be fixing it.

If I were a vendor (and I'm not), I would have no aspirations that making things for Poser or D|S was going to support me like a regular job would...it's just never going to happen. Therefore, I wouldn't worry about it too much if I were them ;o). For most, this biz will never be anything more than extra spending money ;o). That's the way I see it.

Laurie

Well, for me I started with Daz, and I had a lot of fun with it too. But when I realized that there was a hell of a lot more material designed for poser I simply switched over, as I did'nt want to limit what I could do. Now I have the best of both worlds, and I prefer poser's options and flexibility (I'm still learning it mind :)).

I'm not sure why anyone would think that material made for poser should automatically work in Daz studio. Especially when all vendors say "not tested in D/S". I certainly never expected anything to, unless the vendor said it was D/S compatible.

Cheers,

Rob.

Quote - This thread is making me think of something: what happens next if daz decides that V5/M5 are only going to work well with D/S?

V4 will be around for a long time still even when V5 is released.  Do not expect DAZ3D to support SmithMicro products, though.  Heck... DAZ3D doesn't support there own products other than V4.

I have both P8 and DS3A.  And Carrara and Vue.  If something won't work in DS because of materials, I just use whatever DS shaders I have (a ton of them actually).  Same goes with Carrara and Vue.

I am just so grateful to vendors for the modelling (can't do it to save my life), that I just don't care that much what it's made for.

I just use whichever program seems best for what I have in mind.  They all have their weak and strong points.

From the user point of view, and from a seller, it would be perfect if the makers of DAZ and Poser agree to use the same shaders. But I think it won't happen ever.

From a seller point, it's not a matter of how much you'll sell, but to be able to sell to more people and not have returns.

Quote - ...but to be able to sell to more people and not have returns.

That's all well and good, but if it clearly states on the product page that it was not tested DS nor supported in DS and is bought by a DS user anyway, then there should be no returns ;o). Just my two cents...lol.

Laurie

Quote - > Quote - ...but to be able to sell to more people and not have returns.

That's all well and good, but if it clearly states on the product page that it was not tested DS nor supported in DS and is bought by a DS user anyway, then there should be no returns ;o). Just my two cents...lol.

Laurie

Of course, lol!

Lol, just as a joke, one can also say "This product was not tested at all, use it at your own risk", lol!  

LOLOL...well, I would never release anything I hadn't had tested yet ;o). But true! LOL

Laurie

 It would never be accepted here it if wasn't tested either :) And it's tested again once it enters the store. Of course even Rosity's testers are only human so there may be an undiscovered error, but I assure you, things ARE tested here. (yea I've had a few things initially rejected because of errors I'd missed!)

And I always state that this is a Poser product and has not been tested in DS. (exept in the few cases where I've had DS testers to help me with it) and as such, I wouldn't accept a return from a DS user who just didn't bother to read the text.

A lot of things ARE cross-compatible, most props, scenes and such are. MAT poses MAY work and the same with morphs. Some work, some do not.

I was just curious to know if I was alone in making POSER stuff :) Apparently I'm not.

I don't think Daz would make V5/M5 DS only, but at the same time I wouldn't be surprised. Look at both the Freak 4 and the Kids. Neither work properly in Poser. They are drifting away from Poser. Slowly but steadily. But they'll be the ones to lose out. I think there's still more Poser users than DS users, even if I'm not sure. It's just that Poser has been around for 10 years+ and DS is still in some kind of beta... (even if it's officially done)

Well, someone pointed out to me that every time DS gets updated it breaks something so that it's nigh to impossible to keep up with every version (and I'm not willing to try). Not that Poser doesn't have it's problems on release either...lol. But Poser normally continues backwards compatibility.

I also think there are still more Poser users than DS users, at least for now. While it's nice that DS has the ability to add modules for a fee and you can pick and choose what you want, it also makes it hard to make something for every plugin that any given DS user may have. At least with Poser you know what they've got because they have it from the get-go and if you make it for and in Poser, so do you...lol.

Laurie

Quote - Well, someone pointed out to me that every time DS gets updated it breaks something so that it's nigh to impossible to keep up with every version (and I'm not willing to try). Not that Poser doesn't have it's problems on release either...lol. But Poser normally continues backwards compatibility.

I stick with a certain version that works with all the content I have and then don't add anything new to it that I know won't work and will only mess up my workflow.

I haven't upgraded DAZ Studio beyond the version that came with Bryce 6.1 because that's all I use it for. To import Poser content into Bryce. I do all my setup in Poser, save as a PZ3 and import that thru DS to Bryce.

personally, i think unless the merchant has a team of developers (not just testers) to work with  or makes really expensive sets that still sell at volume, it's completely unreasonable to expect cross application production  and even in those cases, i'd say it was a really, really nice feature rather than a necessity. going the extra mile.  rigging seems easier, but i'd bet it soon won't be.

i don't expect merchants to cater to my own choices.  i don't expect the merchants who specialize in DS content  to make decent Poser presets.  i don't think people who know the Poser material room and lights inside and out should have to know DS materials.  DS ShaderMixer has some serious functional limitations and no Matmatic, VSS, Parmatic, or even bagginsbill.  when we choose an application, especially when we claim it's easier to use, i think it makes no sense to balk at making our own presets.

what i do expect is that all versions of the product should be complete.  for instance, several items i purchased from DAZ only had displacement maps in the DS installer.  not presets, maps.  i had to download and install the DS version just to get at the maps.  that's just rude.  i don't care if the merchant  hasn't figured out the single node solution to the difference between 0 for Poser and 0 for DS.  i have.  and if i hadn't, i'd work at figuring it out.  if they had just installed with the rest of the textures, it wouldn't have effected people who don't like to tinker, while making it easier for those who do.

I've never provided support for D|S because I could never get it to run on any of my systems.

Even though I state on my products they ain't D|S compatible, I still get people asking me if they are, or how they can use them in D|S. 

If I knew how to optimize materials for D/S, I would do it.  But, I intend to make the most of Poser's material room, so I will not aim for the lowest common denominator.

I am just now learning Vue 8.5 Infinite and Genetica 3.51 Studio, both of which I'll use to make Poser content.  My off-duty time is better invested in these, though I'd like to learn D/S well enough to provide D/S materials.

Have you tested Daz Studio 3?

I found bugs or problems more usually on Poser that with that version of DS. The difference with materials is the only problem, and it's solved if model makers just take the effort to make it look the same in DS and provide the preset in the same directory. DS 3 automatically selects the DS preset.

Maybe version 2 was more buggy, but 3 seems to run well.

 first of all, i've seen talented merchants post that they cannot get DS3 to run on their boxes.  i've literally never seen anyone post they couldn't get a version of Poser to run. even the  fatal errors i've seen people report have been temporary (came and went) and not on install.   just on the basis of that, i don't believe DS is more stable.

second of all, it takes very, very little effort to make a material in Poser that absolutely requires mastering (not just using) Shader Mixer. in Poser, inputs multiply.  that is, if i set an input to 4 and plug a diffuse node into it, i get 4 * diffuse node.  in Shader MIxer, the diffuse node, if there is one, would override the 4.  for this reason, to do the same thing in Shader Mixer as in Poser requires a much higher level of complexity. 

to get the same performance, that means the same features built into the material.  to build the same features in DS you can with Poser and Poser material tools is damn hard.  not impossible, but definitely not simple.

third, lights, shadows, and materials all work differently in DS.  what renders is always a combination of lighting and materials.  establishing equivalent material behavior means finding equivalent lighting. 

and fourth, i can't speak for anyone else , but i've spent years getting to where i am now with Poser lighting and materials.  even with all that i've learned about general principles like conservation of energy, fresnel and linear workflow, i'd still  have to spend years to be as good with materials and light in another app.

i've seen out of some top DAZ merchants who say they only use DS because they can't make decent materials in Poser.  then they show results i don't think i'd have much problem duplicating.  but they aren't as comfortable in Poser as i am.   and i don't fault them for that.  why should i?

 Also.. there's ..uhm how shall I put it as to not sound Poser-centric.. Thing is, I don't like DS. I find it incredibly un-intuitive, just like when I tried Lightwave once at a friend's house. I can do things in it but it takes me far too long time to do even basic stuff because I don't know which control does what. I haven't installed DS3 so I can't say if I can get it to run or not.

Also I must admit I feel a little conned at Daz' way of selling that app. Sure it's free. If you don't want any of the functionality. And then when you've plunged in and bought add ons like I did for the early versions where I was still inclined to genuinely give it a chance (and because even DS in its alpha version was better in many ways than Poser 5 which was the latest Poser at the time) - they put those extra things in the next version for free. So I wasted money on stuff that was now thrown at me. Dunno about you guys, but I found that extremely tacky. I was beta testing their program and paid for the "privilege"...

After that I stopped bothering about DS.

So I'm not going to jump through any hoops to make my stuff DS compatble. I'm sure most of it DOES work fine, since the basics for the two programs are more or less the same, but chances are it'll look better in Poser.

So I wasn't in any way trying to start at DS/Poser war here, those battles have been fought ad nauseam with no winners. I was just trying to find out it I was the oddball for thinking it obvious that if the promo text says "NOT TESTED IN DS" - people wouldn't automatically assume it still worked fine.

TrekkieGrrl - there are merchants who use DS and  feel the same way about Poser.   i have no wish for them to waste time working with Poser when they're never going to get as good at it as people who love it.   the most i'd ask is a plain material with all the maps in expected places.

conversely, i think it's weird to be a customer and say, "i choose this app because i find it so much easier," and then turn around a pitch a fit when you have to make your own materials and lighting.  if it's not easy to do that, then the app isn't easy, and you might as well switch. i mean, if all you're willing to do is load and render, then what does it matter?

DAZ Studio 3 is easy to use, but at the beginning it has a strange GUI that makes it difficult to understand. It is solved if you just dedicate 15 minutes to see the tutorial videos and have a look at the manual.

The same happens with Hexagon, the modeler, which I use for everything, from modeling to UVs. It has a strange GUI, but I learned everything in 4 days just reading the manual and following it.

Poser is not easy at all also. Unless you familiarize with it, the GUI is as strange as in DAZ Studio. Just remember when you started to understand how it works and remember, you surely found it strange.

These are applications that are not a web browser or a text editor, their interface is not standard and are not intuitive. But the learning curve for DS is faster than Poser.

I know what you mean Jordi...Poser took me forever to learn back in the day ;o).

Laurie

Yes Laurie, the things is that one gets used and then thinks it's easy, but Poser is not easy, nor is DS. In fact, I think that any Poser user is quite an advanced computer user. Some option it has I think I won't use them in all my life.

Poser was very easy for me to learn because of it's GUI and similarity to Bryce 4, which is what I started with. Face it, some people will find it easy and some won't. I for instance have a hell of a time in regular 3D apps like TrueSpace, 3DSMax and Blender because to me, their UI's are not at all intuitive. It boils down to what people like and how their minds percieve space.

I found Bryce troublesome as I remember ;o). Vue I took to right away. I know people who are the opposite ;o). I agree about Blender tho...I've never seen a less intuitive interface. If you can grasp that, you can grasp anything as far as I'm concerned...hehe.

I suppose it's because I am so Poserized (going on 12 years now) that I don't get DazStudio. But DS nodes are a complete mystery while Poser's at least make some type of sense ;o). I guess it depends on what you're used to, which I guess is while I'll stick to making things for Poser...it's what I'm used to :o). If I try to make things DS compatible at this point, I'll just screw them up horribly...lol.

Laurie

Quote - Poser was very easy for me to learn because of it's GUI and similarity to Bryce 4, which is what I started with. Face it, some people will find it easy and some won't. I for instance have a hell of a time in regular 3D apps like TrueSpace, 3DSMax and Blender because to me, their UI's are not at all intuitive. It boils down to what people like and how their minds percieve space.

Agree, it seems one must find what feels comfortable with.

To be honest..., I've been playing with Daz-studio the whole week and allthough it feels it bit of turning to the dark side as a hard-core Poser user, it wasn't that hard to learn the UI.
There are a lot of positive things to be said about D|S from a objective point of view, because there are a lot of things I miss in Poser.
On the other side: there are also a lot of things I miss in D|S as well.
I could make a complete list of the pro's and neg's of both Poser and D|S, but I want to stay on topic: If someone wants to make a product that has to be  compatible with both products, she or he has to keep the texturing as simple as possible: only a simple colormap for a diffuse input, a bumpmap, a transparant map.
Don't try to make an advanced shader, unless you understand  the shaderinterfaces of both products. And even then there will be problems, because advanced D|S-shaders won't work in the free version of D|S.
And there's the point: If you want to make products that keeps everyone happy, you have to make them as simple as possible, just to be sure it works in poser4, 5, 6, 7, 8, pro, pro2010, D|S 2, D|S 3 free and advanced.
The only complaint you will get that it looks terrible ( I want to say : it looks like ****, but this is a civilised forum)
But if you want to make  a real great product with fantastic shaders (not only textures), you have to be a real genius who knows all the ins and outs of the shading capacities of every available product. And if you don't : just say that it won't work for D|S free or below poser6, or whatever  and be always prepaired that people return their products because they didn't read the small letters.

best regards,

Bopper.

The only thing I wanted to or needed to know about DS was how to configure the UI to look Carraraish and I was set. :tt2: Seriously though, as rarely as I use DS, I'm finding I need to relearn how to get it to recognise Poser external runtimes properly. It still keeps asking me to locate geometries in PZ3 files by hand.

You can add runtimes by clicking the directory-tab in edit preferences, and add them in the poser-format section. When you have all your Runtimes  loaded, D|S will import your pz3 files without (almost ) asking to locate your geometries.

regards,

B.

 Like LostInSpaceman, I found Poser a breeze because it was so close to Bryce. And remember this was back in the days of Poser 4, so the program WAS a lot easier since it was less complex.  The biggest problem I had with Poser 4 was that it took me a long time to realise that it WAS actually rendering... Since I was used to Bryce's raytracer, I saw Poser's "renderer" as an advanced preview more than an actual render. So I rendered most of my stuff in Bryce for a long time :)

And sorry, but I don't find DS the slightest bit intuitive, although one of my friends feels the absolute opposite about DS/Poser. So yes it's a lot about personal preferences AND how our brain is wired :)

Thanks Bopper! I've been working on some renders in Bryce this week and I hadn't gotten around to fully setting up DS under Windows 7 yet. Bryce is on day three of a HUGE render at the moment so it'll have to wait.

I never considered exploring 3D until D|S was first released in 2006.  It was free, so I figured what the heck.  When I first loaded it, I found it extremely difficult to figure out, but after going through the tutorial I found I had grasped the basic concepts of 3D modeling - and how to use D|S - in about two hours.  The most difficult challenge for me was understanding content organization.  I spent the next three years tinkering with it whenever I was in the mood, and finally completed my first series of renders last year.

Today, I'm going through the same learning process with Poser.

It all boils down to taking time to learn how to use the product.

As for compatibility issues, well, that's why I'm switching to Poser.  There's a lot more content out there for it, and its community support is enormous.

i found Blender much more intiuitive than Hexagon and 3DS Max.  much.  everything i wanted to do was about 3 steps.  the tutorials i found for Hex and Max required much, much more and were much less clear and inaccurate.  ah well, to each their own.

no, most Poser users aren't very advanced computer users, to go by forum posts and from what i've observed in classes that taught Poser.  it's actually incredibly easy as production apps go.

and i would buy that DS was easier across the board if i saw complex shaders coming out or any discussions on heavy duty shader complexities.  instead, what i've seen is people get pretty much nowhere after extended research and forum posts.  if you're in the just try things until it looks good camp, DS is fine.  but if you're trying to incorporate realistic physical principles and correct workflow into shaders, it's much harder.   in my experience just finding out how is so difficult i literally don't know anyone who's managed, including those who identify themselves as DS experts and material gurus.

and imho, mastering true SSS and translucency in DS takes a lot of time and effort, even without considerations of conservation of energy and linear workflow.

Just adding my 2 cents.......

Poser user, poser content creator. I only make things daz friendly 100% of the time when doing a commission piece, as the buyers have all been daz only users. I have been trying to make most of my recent products daz friendly when it comes to the morph INJ files (not using pmd inj) but when it comes down to it I will not test most items in daz. Personally I hate the way daz UI is and I wont bother with it. I do not like that I would have to make different materials, one for poser, one for daz, for them to look great in both. As a result I will not say that it is daz friendly unless I have had others play with it and say everything is "a-ok". I think as long as you DONT say it's for daz then it must be presumed it was not made for daz, ie, dont complain if it dosent work well in daz "out of the box".

On the other hand, I'm sure daz is about half the marketplace so you can't dismiss that fact. Thats why I'm trying to make sure everything loads, inj files work, ect.... I just dont bother making sure MAT files look the same, work the same, and hence, do not mention DAZ unless the result is the same.

I'd like to see some actual poll though of DAZ to POSER.... not a flame war, just raw numbers.

ps: No K4 issues in poser for me, Niles.....

Interesting reading and very glad to see it stay civilized and not become a Versus debate. :)

I'm a strong Poser user and supporter.  I also creep into DS often but I suppose I use it more for a plugin for Poser, LOL.  For example, I do like the Figure Tools a bit better than Poser's.  They aren't without their flaws and little nuances (and the fact that anything that DS doesn't natively like gets stripped out on cr2 export... like Geometry Switching, for one).

When possible, I try to make sure that my products are DS compatible.  Obviously, there are going to be some Poser-only features in many of them and in the case of Python Scripts, that requires Poser.  I try to get basic materials set up and figures and props to load and work properly.

As a testing ground, DAZ Studio is less forgiving than the Poser 8 series but sometimes in a good way.  For example, I made a total boob error and had textures one folder up instead of where they needed to be.  Poser looked recursively and there was no issue loading them.  DS had a baby.

Each of the two programs has it's own strengths.  Both programs do have their own scripting, which can help add features and productivity to each.  wxpython will and has opened that up even more for Poser.  As always we're going to see improvements come from the community, for both camps.  Like the stuff Poseworks and Omnifreaker has done for DS and what PhilC, Kamilche, D3D and others have done for Poser.

Slightly OT, remember those Metaballs for Poser by WeirdJuice?  Pretty amazing stuff and that was in the limited ProPack days :D  Wish someone would make new metaballs for Poser...