hello.

As a Poser animator, thats really all I know how to do....animate. I take figures and props that other people create and I make them move.

This has its own inherant limitations, obviously, when it comes to bringing many of my own ideas to life in Poser. If I cannot find a hair model or set of clothing or prop that suits my needs that idea gets put on the shelf......and this is very frustrating.

 I NEED to learn how to build my own Poser-ready models but I have NO idea where to begin.

How is a conforming figure created? How are material zones created and assigned? Do I need a $5000 program to do this? How is a figure created in another program converted to a Poser-ready figure?

Could someone please point me towards a beginners' tutorial for modeling, rigging and texturing figures and props for use in Poser? Also I would like to know what other programs would be used for the steps of this process.

Thank you in advance,
stim

I can't point you to much in particular. There are some videos at Nevercenter.com that show how to model. The instructors are using Silo, but any type of box modeling or whatever modeling they are doing applies...

Try Wings 3D to start. It's easy and not overly complicated and it's free but it's only a box modeler.... On the paid for side, Hexagon is cheap, but buggy for some. Silo is also relatively inexpensive and there is a nice 30 day trial version.

PhilC has some helpers as far as making clothing and conformers.

Laurie

Well, the first step is not going to be "modeling and rigging for Poser," but "Beginning 3D Modeling"; it's not clear from your post whether this step has been done. With programs like Blender and Hexagon out there, that are very capable and very inexpensive (Blender, after all, is FREE), you're already halfway to your goal once you have that part taken care of.

This site has several tutorials for rigging models for Poser. You could also check out PhilC's videos on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8jxSOL_MAM). DAZ3D.com also has several tutorials on modeling, rigging, conforming, morphs, etc. that apply not only to Poser but to their own Daz|Studio and other modeling software.

Pretty much any modeling software that can export an OBJ file is usable; it depends upon your budget, your needs, and your enthusiasm. Poser itself is ready-made for rigging your model once it's built - I haven't used Daz|Studio, so I can't speak to its current capabilities, but it now has an advanced version.

Good luck! You're definitely in the right place. (BTW, PhilC also makes some great utilities, including one for making your own hair ;-)).

The best resources for learning the things you'll need to know are Dr. Geep's and PhilC's tutorials (with a healthy side helping of those at DAZ, and the forums here and at PoserPros).

 Actually, for animation, I'd suggest you looked into using dynamic hair. After all, that's what it's meant for. With the right settings (and granted, those take TIME to master) you can have very believable hair movements. The same is the case with dynamic clothes. Although conforming clothes move with the figure, it will never look totally real. Dynamic clothes falls, drapes and moves like real fabric (again, given that it's made right!)

Dynamic hair is made right inside Poser, in the Hair Room, and dynamic clothes is generally a lot easier to make than conforming clothes since there's no pesky joint parameters to care about. There's a fairly recent thread here discussing dynamic clothes and some tips in creating it. 

You'll need a modeler, I use Hexagon and can heartily recommend it.

If you decide to try your hands on conforming clothes, I'd suggest you get PhilC's OBJ2CR2 utility. It really does 99% of the work with conforming.

MATS is a whole other thing, first you'll need to UVmap your object (you will need to UV map it for OBJ2CR2 to work as well, so better get familiar with UVMapper or something similar. Hexagon can UVMap the model for you as can, I'm sure, Blender. I've never used Blender so I can't really help you there.

Once you have an UVMap, the mapping is fairly easy. You get a template, usually like a flat version of the model, you can paint on. What you paint there will be the texture map. 

But modelling first. Without that, all the rest is just confusing stuff.

(oh and I'm a big fan of your animated poses.. the ones sold ... elsewhere ;)  They're the best I've ever seen!)

If you havent already I suggest you look at transparency maps to allow a limited change of haor or clothing , poser magnets and then find a simple modelling program to try.

There are a bunch of tutorials on building conformers.

Material zones can be done in Poser using the group editor.  Its in the Poser manual.

For applications , a modelling program , a mapping program, a paint program for doint texture maps is all you need.

Thre are a bunch of python utilities to help with rigging and there are programs like Philc obj2cr2. I think you should learn to do it the long way first so you understand the process.

You have my email, feel free to contact me if you have specific questions.

Basic dress modeling
Shoe modeling

You'll find a lot of tutorials to help you get the basics...but my god is it hard to find information about the detail stuff.  Very esoteric.  If you delve into this, prepare to be very frustrated...perhaps moreso than you are now!

Like what?

Sometimes the best way to learn modeling, high or low poly is to just watch someone work from a video. There are many ways to arrive at the same outcome in modeling, but when you actually watch someone work first hand you really gain insight in the many ways you can manipulate the program and/or mesh.
From there you can launch into many different areas on your own. But make no mistake, learning how to 3d model is something that really never stops, there are always new tricks to the trade.
The better you become the more you discover more efficent ways to arrive at the same point, and efficent doesn't necessairly mean less polygons, it means understanding the programs and/or apps that you are trying to make handshake with each other and making that handshake successful.

like what me?

Details...working with seam-lines, how to model while thinking in advance of how in the holy hell you're going to uvmap this extruded, convoluted polygonal nightmare, buttons, folded down collars, pockets, zippers for crying out loud...laces, strings, natural folds and drapes, pleats, Hair,

You want more?

Everybody's tutorial seems to stop at what is essentailly a t-shirt.  Just enough to get you running but nothing to win the race.

If it helps, I found modeling to be daunting to say the least. So, I downloaded Wings and just played with it, just played around. I got an idea of what to do in less than a week...

Sometimes, you have to just try with no expectation of success ;o). If you think about the huge picture up front, you may as well give up before you start. Just take baby steps. You might surprise yourself.

Laurie

I was of the opinion that some vendors wanted to keep their secrets and that is fair enough.  Part of the learning process is learning the difference between conforming clothing and dynamic clothing.  Conforming clothing can be much less technical, with parts just put in place and the seams between parts left unwelded.

The easiest way to begin for your own use is to customize an existing item.

Quote - like what me?

Details...working with seam-lines, how to model while thinking in advance of how in the holy hell you're going to uvmap this extruded, convoluted polygonal nightmare, buttons, folded down collars, pockets, zippers for crying out loud...laces, strings, natural folds and drapes, pleats, Hair,

You want more?

Everybody's tutorial seems to stop at what is essentailly a t-shirt.  Just enough to get you running but nothing to win the race.

Things like "how do I UVmap a complex model" are pretty organic and can't easily be boiled down into a tutorial, I understand what you're saying but there simply isn't a way to make that skill set into something generic.  A good general rule of thumb when modeling something like clothing is to delete any extra geometry - any interior polygons will never be seen, will make the model harder to UVmap and will just be wasted overhead.  Picking up and learning a UVmapping tool that does LSCM or ABF unwrapping (both, preferably) will save you huge amounts of work.

A whole lot of your detail items are things that imo should be part of the bump map, or maybe displacement map if you're really super-concerned about how something looks in profile.  Modeling folds into static (non-dynamic) clothing is rarely something I really want as a user, because the folds and wrinkles will never make sense for loose-fitting clothing (big folds), and for tight-fitting clothing (small wrinkes) there just isn't any benefit in making these part of the basic mesh.  Seams and zipper-lines fall into this category as well.  They are a lot of work to model with pure geometry, don't look any better than a bump map from practically any distance or angle, and greatly increase poly count and overhead. 

Buttons are easy, they're just flattened cylinders.  Tiny details like the little holes in the center and the threads that hold the button in place should be part of the texture/bump map, you're not looking at the damn things with a microscope.  They will be a few pixels across in practically any render.

Pleats are easy again, if they are large enough to show in profile then it's just a matter of using the Extrude tool of your modeler.  Strings and other tube-type structures are typically done with Sweep (the name varies depending on what modeler you're using but the principles are the same).

Pockets are typically going to be an application of extrude again, along the lines of modeling a trim or hem but doing it around a hole.  Modeling a detailed inside of a pocket would be a waste of your time, like any form of interior geometry that will never be rendered.  Just the opening of the pocket is all that's needed.

The bigger body of knowledge that you probably want to look into is topology - and there is no simple way to pick this knowledge up and apply it to a variety of projects, unfortunately.  This thread on subdivisionmodeling.com discusses a lot of aspects of topology in generic terms, and is very informative, but you have to spend a lot of time thinking about the information given and how you can apply it before you can really do anything with it.  When you do start getting a grip on it though, many things will become easier and your models will probably start looking a lot more like you want them to, and will typically be easier to UVmap to boot:
http://www.subdivisionmodeling.com/forums/showthread.php?t=907

Something to keep in mind when trying to learn modeling and texturing and rigging - you will make garbage for a year or so ***(possibly longer than that). *** Don't be discouraged and try not to get frustrated.  Nobody walks up to these tools and learns them from a standing start in a couple of weeks.  If you hear of someone who learned this stuff quickly, good for them, but it's good to start out with reasonable expectations - if you surprise yourself and learn to do things quicker, so much the better!

No amount of money spent will make you a master modeler.  Expensive tools are not necessarily the best tools - Blender is free, widely used, and well-maintained.  Same goes for Gimp for texturing.

Simple tools are also not necessarily the best tools - regarding Blender again, it has an arcane interface if you're already familiar with another modeler, but if you're brand new I highly recommend starting with Blender and sticking with it, rather than screwing around with simple modelers like Sketchup and the like, which you will eventually grow out of and discard.  Blender does EVERYTHING.  Learning to use any program will take time and brainpower, and if you end up growing out of a given program, that learning effort goes down the toilet.  It is very unlikely you'll ever outgrow Blender or one of the other "big dog" 3D suites - I use Cinema 4D because I had money in my pocket at the time, but if I was starting again I'd pick Blender.

Quote - I was of the opinion that some vendors wanted to keep their secrets and that is fair enough.

In technical terms, I call these people "dicks".

Laurie is correct with the "get right in there and try it" part. Once you get in there and start messing around, seeing what each function does what and all that jazz, it's pretty simple. Take it from me, I just started modeling about 3 weeks ago using Wings 3D, and I've impressed even myself.

Just to be fair (and as a nod to pjz99 who prolly thinks I'm full of crap because I said I figured out Wings in a week...lol), I will say that I had tried to model years ago, made a few simple things and grew frustrated at the time. So, essentially I was not starting from absolute zero. I did have at least some modeling in my history and over a decade of using 3D programs and navigating around in them.

You just have to play around until everything clicks, because it will eventually. Some people learn it quickly, some not so quickly. But in truth, it's not rocket science, any of it. Just pick a place to start (I recommend the modeling end since that's where the meshes come from...lol) and learn as much as you can. I do agree that for what seems the longest time you will make junk...lol. I'm not sure if I still qualify for that or not, but since it's subjective, I'll leave it up to others (been modeling now for about 8 months or there abouts).

Laurie

Well I'm pretty sure it took you longer than a week to go from modeling a vase to modeling a dress ;)

Looking at wireframes of your dress models, I think you really probably should start looking into topology.  You're doing fine, but I think it will help you a lot when you start getting into more complex models.

I actually did those dresses before I ever even saw a video on topology, so I'm slowly getting that. I haven't made any clothing since because I've been busy with other things, but I'm looking to putting some things I learned in that video to use ;o).

And no, it took a bit longer than a week to go from a vase to clothing...lol.

Laurie

One of the things to keep in mind when you're modeling conforming clothing for animation is edge-loops. Blender and animation are tightly interwoven, so there is a lot of emphasis placed on how best to create mesh that will deform how you want it to as your characters move.

One of the things I do like about Blender (once you get your head past the interface, which is changing now with 2.5x) is the support: the community is HUGE. Bigger even than here. The tutorials are legion.

I can't really speak for other modeling programmes: I tried 3DSMax, but it didn't suit my workflow. I guess it's what you get used to. Blender can do pretty much everything but it's not brilliant for sculpting yet (hoping the new version will address that) and there is a learning curve. But it is a pro-level programme, and you will find once you've done the tutes and made your Suzannes and vases you'll get really fast at it, which is really good. It has a decent UV-mapper and you can render to a number of different engines.

But I agree: it's not for everyone. People get frustrated with the current interface (which I love - I'm weird :lol:) and so tend to give up on it. So, in short :biggrin: which ever programme you choose, choose it based on what you want to do, then stick with it, take your time with it, spend a LOT of time getting a feel for it. Model for modeling's sake first, and then for Poser. In the case of Blender, if you follow all the principles you will find that the mesh will work beautifully in Poser.

BTW, Poser likes quads.

Attached Link: http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=110302

It documents the build of a model right from the 1st sketch right through to completion.

Some parts of the process, like UVMapping, are not shown in detail.
Because most folks either know how to do it or understands the principle so theres no need to discuss it.  

A whole lot of very good generic information in a pleasant format can be found here:
http://guerrillacg.org/

Wow...so much great info and advice. I wasnt expecting such a large response in one day =)

Quote -  Actually, for animation, I'd suggest you looked into using dynamic hair. After all, that's what it's meant for. With the right settings (and granted, those take TIME to master) you can have very believable hair movements. The same is the case with dynamic clothes. Although conforming clothes move with the figure, it will never look totally real. Dynamic clothes falls, drapes and moves like real fabric (again, given that it's made right!)

I agree. Im a big believer in dynamics for animation. Most of my animations (the ones that have clothes anyway lol) use conforming clothing and/or hair that I have converted into dynamic props using the cloth room in Poser (an example is this one on Youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0SiQqPh5wk ).
As for the dynamic hair room, I dont really like the hair created there. It looks way too stringy to me as well as being highly computationally intensive to run the dynamics AND render. Turning hair models into dynamic cloth usually gets me a faster and better looking result.
Though, admittedly I probably dont know how to use the hair room as well as I should. The only useful thing I've found for the hair room is creating grass that will blow in the wind realisticly.
(P.S thank you for the kind words about my animation products)

Quote - If it helps, I found modeling to be daunting to say the least. So, I downloaded Wings and just played with it, just played around. I got an idea of what to do in less than a week...
Sometimes, you have to just try with no expectation of success ;o). If you think about the huge picture up front, you may as well give up before you start. Just take baby steps. You might surprise yourself.
Laurie

That's a very good point and actually thats how I got started with animation. Got a copy of Poser never expecting it to lead anywhere and just started pressing buttons to see what would happen.
You're right that if I had the intention then of learning all this stuff about animation then it probably would have seemed too daunting of a task and given up long ago.

Thank you for reminding me that I should approach model making the same way.

Quote - > Quote - I was of the opinion that some vendors wanted to keep their secrets and that is fair enough.

In technical terms, I call these people "dicks".

LOL
I figured that may be the case with at least some of the very talented vendors which is one reason I havent directly messaged any of them with questions. I figured asking in this forum was a better way to gather from a large pool of knowledge anyway.

BTW mark I wasn't aware you did any modeling O_o

From the advice that I've read here it looks as though I need to decide between Wings and Blender to get started.
I will go through the links that have been provided so far.
Thank you all for your contributions to this discussion to this point and more opinions are, of course welcome.

To be honest if vendors really believe that it's their secret techniques that will make them successful, rather than their quality of design and craftsmanship, those people deserve to fail.  Imagination, good design, and craftsmanship are the real hard parts of any creative endeavor, not "what command do I type" or "what button do I push".

Quote - To be honest if vendors really believe that it's their secret techniques that will make them successful, rather than their quality of design and craftsmanship, those people deserve to fail.

Also they're very likely to either be undercut by reverse engineered variants, or have their technique exposed as snake oil once someone who knows gets a look, or both.

I think that even if you know the techniques...you're still not going to absolutely duplicate someone else's efforts...unless they're positively a*al about it...;)

(Heck, I've been using Wings for 8 years and still haven't made a dress....typical guy, more interested in how they come off rather than how they go on...;)

I've seen people come to modeling absolutely clueless...and feel the soft breeze as they fly past my skill level...;) it can be done, eventually...don't let no one tell ya different.

 Good thread...book marking it. 

I started with Pov-ray and similar stuff on my old 286 pc back a while. I really got started with Truespace 4 with modlling and animation. Then I found Poser at a price I could afford , and upgraded to Lightwave when they had a sale.  I tinker with it all, but am not great with any of it, it is fun though to build something that works in Poser.

Try a few demos and see what works for you. I hated Blenders interface but love Lightwaves , mainly because its text and not odd little symbols.   Some of the advanced modellers are worth the expense because they save time with more powerful tools. Spend a bit more time and even a very basic modeller will get you there.  

There are modelling tutorials that teach best methods of joining things , like joining two cylinders, cylinder to cube, and that sort of thing. For Poser it amounts to use quads and tris and try to keep the mesh low poly and neat.

Most of my good models cant work in Poser because they are high polygon, subdivision models that go to a million polygons. 

This requires a very few basic commands to create.