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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2024 Nov 18 10:25 pm)
Subject: And yet another Luxrender, Reality, DAZ cult rant.
Quote - Your motivation on providing something should be to fill a need, not to show someone wrong or to prove it can be done.
Sorry but wanting to prove something can be done is a perfectly valid reason to do it - it's how this thing called "progress" happens
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Quote - > Quote - Your motivation on providing something should be to fill a need, not to show someone wrong or to prove it can be done.
Sorry but wanting to prove something can be done is a perfectly valid reason to do it - it's how this thing called "progress" happens
I was gonna mention that....lol.
Laurie
All through history there's been people saying "it'll never work" or "you can't do that, it's not possible" & we've got cars, planes, mobile phones, lap tops, sent men to the moon & who knows how many other things all because someone like bagginsbill says "I can do it", then goes & does it.
Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1
I agree with Laurie that it is often a matter of perception. Just as often, those perceptions are rooted in loyalties and rivalries that have little objective reason to exist. ‘My dear Grog, our collection of cave dwellings is far superior to that slum you live in.’ If nothing else, rivalry helps us justify our own choices and helps to create unity among the villagers. Thankfully, TCP/IP doesn’t support transferring packets of poison tipped arrows.
“I'm calm, I've found my happy place and everything is beautiful and serene. SERENITY NOW!” – Good on you. Loosen the straps on your manzier, they were probably chafing.
"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken
Quote - All through history there's been people saying "it'll never work" or "you can't do that, it's not possible" & we've got cars, planes, mobile phones, lap tops, sent men to the moon & who knows how many other things all because someone like bagginsbill says "I can do it", then goes & does it.
The problem is that the world has a lot less people like bagginsbill than it used to.
www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG
Quote -
The most amusing thing I've seen though is the image people are putting on their renders that says 'made with Reality'. Come on people, it's Lux doing all the rendering, that's what you ought to be advertising!!
In all fairness, Reality does convert the materials into something that Lux can understand, so technically without it, you can't get DAZ studio to render to Lux. So it is made possible with Reality, maybe that should be the slogan, "Made possible with Reality".
Yes but the fact remains that the rendering engine is Lux. I've seen similar slogans but all were referring to the renderer, not any other mediums. For example, we can export from Poser to Bryce, Vue, Carrara, etc. Nowhere are the exporters mentioned but rather the application used for the final render. But then again, if that rocks your boat it's fine with me, just seemed a little over the top :)
Quote - > Quote - You can cheer yourself up by picturing what the "Reality" creator is going to feel like after a few months of dealing with support for it.
At $50 to $80 a pop, at least he'll be well paid for it, LOL.
It will be $49.57 for quite a while longer as the Platinum Club exclusivity ends September 9th and then everybody gets a crack at it at that price or a similar one and that will probably be for a few weeks as well. I've heard for quite some time that PAs only get 50%... so Paolo isn't making that much and this is his main livelihood. If it really takes off (forget the hype) then he might do well. His constant support will burn him out if he's not careful, though. Some of the users should just stop first and read the Reality manual, the Lux material that's out there and what's already been posted before asking questions that have already been asked several times, but we know how that goes.
pzrite> Quote -
When "Reality" first was announced, I followed the thread with much anticipation, but the more I read the more disappointed and suspicious I got - and this was a couple of months before it was even released. I still have a hard time understanding all the excitement over it.
The bottom line for me is that the renders LuxRender produces does not justify the LONG rendering time (or the price of Reality) for me to use it. I can set up the similar types of rendering in Vue (Global Illumination, Global Radiosity, Ambient Occlusion, Spectral Atmosphere, etc) and come out with the same look (or very close to it) as Reality in at least half the time.
A lot of that suspicion that you and others were voicing was kind of nutty as some of it was around render times. How can you figure render times for an unbiased render? They are all different and all long, unless you use a GPU to render. It showed a deep lack of knowledge about unbiased renderers. Granted, Paolo should have addressed it more head on earlier but as he said recently, he didn't want to get bogged down in all the technical details. Some of those same folks who voiced suspicions are now happy users.
The excitement for DAZ users is they finally get to use a nicer render engine with ease of export/import (unless you have a really complex scene or character setup requiring lots of tweaks), support that is really there including several videos showing how to do it, good documentation for once, network rendering, even using the Amazon cloud for really affordable, quicker renders (trying to get a network license for 3Delight is very costly), and the ability down the road to use GPU rendering which will speed things up considerably. Given the lengthy render times in Poser, DAZ and Carrara to do good quality IBL and GI renders, it's not that far off. Many renders are being cooked much longer than they need to, but once folks start figuring out what to do, as they are here, it will be better. The light in Lux is very realistic, more so than in DAZ Studio, Poser, Carrara, Vue and other render engines and without having to do a bunch of shader cheats and lighting tricks. You can actually approach your setup as a photographer because light behaves as it should. You can actually set up and get quality lit scenes easily. There, of course, is more work to be done, but that's always the way it is.
The only other export options for DAZ users require exporting scenes as obj files for Octane Render or Blender or getting the FBX plug in at DAZ and exporting to Houdini or another more expensive program that imports FBX.
Kevin
Looking over there at the main thread I see lots of renders with a "made with Reality" sticker, bit silly isn't it? they're not actually making anything in Reality it's all done in Daz Studio & LuxRender.
That's like doing a render in Bryce with V4 & putting "made in Daz3d Bridge" on it.
Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1
but your not leaving poser to render in Firefly or leaving Daz Studio to render in 3Delight.
to render in Luxrender you are leaving Poser or Daz Studio, via Luxpose or Reality. Luxrender is a totally separate program. Firefly and 3Delight are integrated into the respective applications.
sorry. MotoTsume, your hair splitting does not make sense.
Quote - but your not leaving poser to render in Firefly or leaving Daz Studio to render in 3Delight.
to render in Luxrender you are leaving Poser or Daz Studio, via Luxpose or Reality. Luxrender is a totally separate program. Firefly and 3Delight are integrated into the respective applications.
sorry. MotoTsume, your hair splitting does not make sense.
Actually yes you do leave both poser and D|S when rendering - you just done notice as your render window is shown in the programs - but the actual rendering is going on externally to poser and D|S, the engines send back results to the program that sent the information to it.
and since it is seamless but the transition to Lux is not..
sorry, while I'm sure it's a fasninating distinction your making, I really have to say... to the lay user, they don't see a seperate program.
they see Poser, Daz Studio or the converters to Luxrender.
QED, End of Discussion, and if you'll excuse me, I haveto and shave my Yak now.
Quote -
A lot of that suspicion that you and others were voicing was kind of nutty as some of it was around render times. How can you figure render times for an unbiased render? They are all different and all long, unless you use a GPU to render. It showed a deep lack of knowledge about unbiased renderers. Granted, Paolo should have addressed it more head on earlier but as he said recently, he didn't want to get bogged down in all the technical details. Some of those same folks who voiced suspicions are now happy users.
Kevin
But there was a very clear example posted (again, very early on) of two renders of an automobile, showing the difference between a Daz Studio render and one done with Reality/LuxRender. The question of render times for those two specific renders were asked several times by at least a couple of different people. The answers that Pret-a-3D gave were evasive, elusive and caused great suspicion.
It was a big red flag for those of us that did not want to deal with render times that take an extended overnight period!
The correct course of action, as a vendor, would have been to supply the correct render times for that particular render and let people decide for themselves if they wanted to have the kind of render take that long of a time to produce. But instead, he was worried about "turning people off" and losing potential customers. Honesty and full disclosure are always best when dealing with customers.
So that along with the other slightly sneaky salesman tactics were enough to cause me (and others) to go into a "Ralph Nader mode" and speak up for consumers' rights.
Maybe a bit over the top, but that's just how it felt.
Maybe I was unjustly feeling like the butt end of PT Barnum's "A sucker born every minute"?
And now, I realize if people are happy with this product, more power to them. But I still think people should be made aware of their various choices and not feel like they have to deal with just one path to get that kind of rendering quality.
Quote - > Quote -
A lot of that suspicion that you and others were voicing was kind of nutty as some of it was around render times. How can you figure render times for an unbiased render? They are all different and all long, unless you use a GPU to render. It showed a deep lack of knowledge about unbiased renderers. Granted, Paolo should have addressed it more head on earlier but as he said recently, he didn't want to get bogged down in all the technical details. Some of those same folks who voiced suspicions are now happy users.
KevinBut there was a very clear example posted (again, very early on) of two renders of an automobile, showing the difference between a Daz Studio render and one done with Reality/LuxRender. The question of render times for those two specific renders were asked several times by at least a couple of different people. The answers that Pret-a-3D gave were evasive, elusive and caused great suspicion.
It was a big red flag for those of us that did not want to deal with render times that take an extended overnight period!The correct course of action, as a vendor, would have been to supply the correct render times for that particular render and let people decide for themselves if they wanted to have the kind of render take that long of a time to produce. But instead, he was worried about "turning people off" and losing potential customers. Honesty and full disclosure are always best when dealing with customers.
So that along with the other slightly sneaky salesman tactics were enough to cause me (and others) to go into a "Ralph Nader mode" and speak up for consumers' rights.
Maybe a bit over the top, but that's just how it felt.
Maybe I was unjustly feeling like the butt end of PT Barnum's "A sucker born every minute"?And now, I realize if people are happy with this product, more power to them. But I still think people should be made aware of their various choices and not feel like they have to deal with just one path to get that kind of rendering quality.
Well, maybe Paolo also avoided the question because soon it will be a moot point. There's a new video on YouTube done with SmallLuxGPU 1.6 that took 25 seconds per frame!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsnkLQIn7YY&hd=1
If memory serves, Paolo didn't have the actual render time for the picture you are referring to. The guy who rendered it didn't write it down, but gave a ballpark later in that thread. I just know everyone who knows about unbiased rendering just shook their head and did a face palm when it came up. ;)
Kevin
Quote - Well, maybe Paolo also avoided the question because soon it will be a moot point. There's a new video on YouTube done with SmallLuxGPU 1.6 that took 25 seconds per frame!
When that video gets to the Blender section, it appears that the car is the only geometry in the scene, i.e. it's being rendered against a panorama backdrop or very simple set.
This is especially noticable when the environmental lighting is adjusted as the light pattern on the buildings doesn't change.
Quote - > Quote - "We've been able to render outside Poser for years, Bryce still renders Poser content quite nicely if you can get past the Daz Studio interface."
Yes of course, I've seen many nice renders using Poser content in Vue, Bryce (Bryce actually has a Kai interface more than a DS one), and higher-end programs. I was referring to the recent desire to render in a separate rendering engine.
"What are you smoking? Or are you just so biased that you read that into posts?"
LOL, well let's see, Reality comes out and not only do people start with the "DAZ Cult" rants, but a community project immediately springs up to create a free alternative for Poser.
I don't come here for my health, nor am I representing or speaking for DAZ when I involve myself in threads like this. I personally just don't like seeing DAZ-bashing when there's no obvious justification, and that seems to happen a lot here.
If you'd like the "real" poop on the whole LuxPose thing:
Pret-A-3D announces Reality. Some of us Poser users says "Oh, nice. Will it be available for Poser?" Nope, says Paolo. "Not possible with Python". Now, I don't know about you, but there's just some folks around here (coders mainly) that you just can't say "impossible" to without the obligatory "We'll just have to prove you wrong then". And so LuxPose was born. More of an exercise to prove that it can be done more than a "we've just gotta have it" mentality.
But that could just be the monkeys flying out of my ass again...
Laurie
Not wanting to fan the flames, but I think i want to clear one bit up. First, I do like Reality, the plugin. It has it's faults as all software does. Anyway, to the point. Back in February of this year, the subject was brought up between BB and kaibach anyway about a Poser to Lux exporter. So it isn't as if the coders only thought about it when Paulo announced his plugin. That was a catalyst though, of that I'm sure.
Quote - Not wanting to fan the flames, but I think i want to clear one bit up. First, I do like Reality, the plugin. It has it's faults as all software does. Anyway, to the point. Back in February of this year, the subject was brought up between BB and kaibach anyway about a Poser to Lux exporter. So it isn't as if the coders only thought about it when Paulo announced his plugin. That was a catalyst though, of that I'm sure.
Well, sure it was, but only because the creator of the Reality plugin showed no interest in making a similar plugin for Poser.
Laurie
Yea, I posted before reading BB's post. It really was my biggest gripe with Paulo's reaction to LuxPose.
Anyway, both have their place. As to the "site wars", it seems to me that if one perceives that one is anti-the other, then anything not glowingly in favor of their POV is considered hate. Which is very sad.
Quote -
If memory serves, Paolo didn't have the actual render time for the picture you are referring to. The guy who rendered it didn't write it down, but gave a ballpark later in that thread. I just know everyone who knows about unbiased rendering just shook their head and did a face palm when it came up. ;)
Kevin
As the person who did the car render in question I can tell you off the top of my head that the render was stoped after 7 hours. I did watch it for the first two hours and have the two hour version and can tell you its really good but has more noise then the 7 hour. I only let it go to 7 cause I went to bed and wanted to see what a few more hours would do to it.
I repositioned the sun later and rendered again and this time stopped it at 15 min. You can see the 15 min version with the differnt lighting here: http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?p=2494964#2494964
" Back in February of this year, the subject was brought up between BB and kaibach anyway about a Poser to Lux exporter. So it isn't as if the coders only thought about it when Paulo announced his plugin."
actually searching back, there was talk (yup me again) almost exactly a year ago about using Luxrender.
back then it was poohpoohed.
funny how time changes things :D
Quote - no render should ever say rendered in Poser either as it isn't, it is rendered most likely in Firefly
as a D|S render isn't a D|S render but now either a lux render or a 3Delight render.just had to say that
You missed the point I was making, Reality doesn't do much more for a render than the 3d bridge from Daz Studio to Bryce, so for someone to label their render as MADE IN REALITY is either stupid or misleading.
Just for the record for those over at Daz who seem to think I hate Daz or the Reality plugin or Pret-a-3d, sorry guys you're way off, I think Reality is perhaps the most important new addition for Daz Studio that has come along since it's beginning & if I was a regular Daz Studio user I would be counting the pennies to see when I can get my hands on a copy.
I'd shake Pret-A-3d by the hand if I could, he's single-handedly given the Poser/D|S community something new to aim for instead of what most of us (me especially) have been doing which is sitting back & rendering the same tired old scenes day in day out.
The ONLY reason I'm not rushing to buy it is every time I try to use Daz Studio all I do is struggle against the interface.
Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1
Content Advisory! This message contains profanity
you know what is more disturbing?
this whole 'anti Daz' 'anti rendo' bullshit.
we are talking about Software. nothing more. yet ppl are prepared to make life long grudge matches, hate someone they've never met or got to know over this.
well lets have some perspective.
there are 33 Miners in Chile that won't see the sun for 4 months. Right now they are being fed through a tiny tube while they dig down to them.
there's just been an earthquake in New Zealand. 7 on the Ricther Scale.
and we're concerned with a tiny TINY slight over a software package or who came up with the idea first . not even worth worrying about.
ye gods ppl.
what the fuck have we become.
Quote - > Quote -
If memory serves, Paolo didn't have the actual render time for the picture you are referring to. The guy who rendered it didn't write it down, but gave a ballpark later in that thread. I just know everyone who knows about unbiased rendering just shook their head and did a face palm when it came up. ;)
Kevin
mattymanx replied
As the person who did the car render in question I can tell you off the top of my head that the render was stoped after 7 hours. I did watch it for the first two hours and have the two hour version and can tell you its really good but has more noise then the 7 hour. I only let it go to 7 cause I went to bed and wanted to see what a few more hours would do to it.
I repositioned the sun later and rendered again and this time stopped it at 15 min. You can see the 15 min version with the differnt lighting here: http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?p=2494964#2494964
mattymanx, that is very good for 15 minutes!
Kevin
"SERENITY NOW!"
"Lloyd Braun: You know, you should tell your dad that 'serenity now' thing
doesn't work. It just bottles up the anger, and eventually, you blow.
George: What do you know? You were in the nut house.
Lloyd Braun: What do you think put me there?"
And if you'll recall that episode ended with Estelle driving her car into Franks' garage computer store.
I haven't posted much on this forum, mostly Daz3d but my favourite program is by far Carrara, I have both Poser7 and the free version of DS but basically use BOTH as Carrara plugins, neither DS or Poser render fast enough for me to do animations with shadows that look good, only ever use open GL or firefly dep on which one I use, just waiting to see what others do with this Lux render thing and whether Poser ends up with the cheaper option, and if it looks better than Carrara. I am always amused by this arguing about what is better thing! Seen great stuff from both camps, true talent even shows up with the 3 coloured pencil or playdough options! I wish I could buy an app that enables THAT!
Quote - > Quote - but most of the haters have been exiled to the grudge sites.
Or they never existed in the first place.
Quoted for agreement.
Just because someone gives a negative review of a particular product does not mean their a "Daz hater"
gee get over it already, so the guy wasn't happy with the reality plug in. Heaven forbid!
Life is hard, but what a ride.
Jeez, I thought this thread would have died by now.
"Or they never existed in the first place."
Oh, they exist, I'll be happy to point them out here the next time DAZ releases a new figure.
SnowS
my DeviantArt page: http://snowsultan.deviantart.com/
I do not speak as a representative of DAZ, I speak only as a long-time member here. Be nice (and quit lying about DAZ) and I'll be nice too.
Because we're not supposed to point fingers directly at each other, that will do nothing but cause more trouble (not to mention they'd deny it anyway). They're not that hard to find though, just wait until the next newbie comes in here asking if he should learn Studio or Poser and watch. ;)
Anyway, Jen would say this discussion doesn't serve any purpose, so we probably shouldn't just go round and round.
SnowS
my DeviantArt page: http://snowsultan.deviantart.com/
I do not speak as a representative of DAZ, I speak only as a long-time member here. Be nice (and quit lying about DAZ) and I'll be nice too.
Quote - Jeez, I thought this thread would have died by now.
"Or they never existed in the first place."
Oh, they exist, I'll be happy to point them out here the next time DAZ releases a new figure.
SnowS
Outrageous! To think that someone may not like a new Daz figure! Yes, yes I quite agree. The impudence of such a position, just imagine. And the unmitigated gall to actually post their dislike! Absolutely horrifying. Such a person should be taken out and stoned for their transgression. I quite agree.
And then to think that someone might actually recommend Poser over Daz studio in the Poser forum. The Daz haters! I think the world may end very soon now. All this wickedness and downright blasphemy.
:lol:
Life is hard, but what a ride.
One problem I have with Daz Studio, is the plugins, because I find that
programmers can never write good technical manuals on how to use
the programs they write. Not Ever! Therefore, the only way this works
out well is with a software that is popular enough that a real technical writer
can write a book that will have an audience. Poser has that.
The one book that was written for Daz isn't very good.
Next, it's only any good if the person writing the code is really really professional,
and really knows what they are doing. You tend to get that when the company
sellign the main software is the one putting most of the functionality in there.
If you get some semi-professional out there writing a plugin, there is more
likelihood of problems. So another problems I see with Daz is this business
of relying on third party semi-professionals.
I've already had this problem with two Daz plugins: Faceshop 5 and Folder Favorites.
I have both Poser 8 and Daz studio with animate 2. I may use Daz studio for a few things,
but dang, it's so much better to have consistent code and good instruction.
:sigh:
See, Tyler knows how to raise a legitimate issue with DAZ Studio. He doesn't just yell and rant about how DAZ wants all of our money or because it doesn't work well for him, it's crap. My issue isn't with people like him, it's with people who don't like products simply because DAZ made them. I'd have the same problem with anyone saying that Poser 9 will be awful just because Smith Micro makes it.
SnowS
my DeviantArt page: http://snowsultan.deviantart.com/
I do not speak as a representative of DAZ, I speak only as a long-time member here. Be nice (and quit lying about DAZ) and I'll be nice too.
Yes BEWARE all you nasty little Daz haters! For we know the secret reason of your heart for not liking that last Daz product. You see God knows the hearts of men, and some of us at Daz do too. So all ye Daz haters, be afraid, be very afraid. Speak out against a Daz product and we shall label you a Daz hater, and woe be upon your head! :lol:
Life is hard, but what a ride.
Dunt da da da!
Charge!
Into the fray we go
with Larry, Curly and Moe
Upon our trusty steeds
To smite the wrong with deeds
Slashing left and right
We are really such a fright
In to smash the foe
Oh my, where did they go?
I could swear they were right there
now they don"t seem to be anywhere.
Well then back to castle Daz
where we may obsess, twitch and spaz
Da dumb da da da
Da dumb da da da
Gonna get them little Daz haters
Gonna make them squeeeal those little Daz haters
Gonna make a meeeal of them little Daz haters
Da dumb da da da
Da dumb da da da
We'll get em
We'll spit em
Then we're gonna frit em
(gee I wonder if there are really any Daz haters, if this might just be the way they are created?)
Hope you enjoyed the show with Larry, Curley and Moe.
Just a little ditty from the orange kitty
gotta go.
:lol:
Life is hard, but what a ride.
Quote - FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!! I've just seen a thread over there asking for picture Rendered in REALITY!!!!!!! IT DOESN'T RENDER ANYTHING!!!!
There is no thread asking for pictures rendered in Reality. There is however a thread asking for renders using Reality.
Quote - Do people have their brains removed when they sign up to the Daz forum?
Apparently no more so than here.......
Coldrake
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SERENITY NOW!
:lol: Now I keep seeing Jerry Stiller going around, arms in the air, shouting - priceless! Thanks!