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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2024 Oct 22 1:40 am)
Subject: VSS Skin Test - Opinions
Quote - Okay, I am having a moment of proverbial blondness here.
I am using VSS with the albino material to make my figures skin texture paler. No problems, all happily adjusted save for one small detail. No AO in the albino shader that I can see.
Normally, I have no issues adding AO to a material, but the snake pit of VSS is still a wee bit of a mystery.
Since I would like to add this to the material how would I go about it? I could add an IBL with AO, but since all my AO in the scene is materials based so far, would be easier to just add it to the materials for V4.
I may have missed it in the thread here if this has already been covered, if I have I am sorry.
Any help would be appreciated.
Which version of Poser are you using?
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
With IDL, you don't need or want material AO - it's all dealt with in the renderer, IIUC.
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
Quote - I hope one day that the Poser development team will add a wrapper or envelope node. A node that can contain a lot of other nodes, but only expose to the user the input and output channels, and maybe user changeable parameters.
I would also love to see a Python programmable node, where the script-writer could program the input and output channels, and the user changeable parameters.
I could not actually make a lot of use out of such nodes on my own, but they would allow for better organization, and simplification of the Advanced Material Room, and imagine the magic that bagginsBill could work with nodes like that.
And, some of us are ready to pay for that stuff that bagginsBill does not want to give away for free.
LMK
Have you been peeking over my shoulder? Those exact features are in VSS Pro (which I have begun working on again.) The wrapper or envelope node I call a composite node - you lasso a bunch of nodes and hit the "Composite" button and bang they become a single node. Then you "Add to Library" and that whole group is a reusable component. Also there is the "matmatic" node, which is also a composite, but you write what it does in matmatic Python. All of these and the built-ins are then editable in a visual tool similar to but better than the Poser material room.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
As others said, IDL is preferred over AO of any kind, and if you enable IDL, AO is automatically ignored. (Unless you explicitly override that for special cases. Examples would be using AO for crevice detection to make grime.)
But meanwhile, if you really need to use P7 style rendering without IDL, I will post a version of the Albino shader with AO. But you have to come back and tell me you really want that.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
Bagginsbill you're in a position to get this implemented: would be very handy to be able to rename material nodes in the Poser interface. It can be done by editing saved files but being able to do it inside of Poser would be pretty nice.
I would really really -love- to use IDL it is why I got Poser 8, but without fail my comp shuts down when I attempt to render any scene with it. Quad core, 6 gigs of dual channel RAM and it wilts with even a test render with IDL, and yes, I strip the AO off all materials when I have tried it.
Trying to figure out why this happens, I am pretty sure it is a hardware problem somwhere, but until I do the albinoize material with AO would be greatly appreciated.
Quote - If you have PP2010 with render GC and IDL, you don't need the complicated shaders I have been using. It's mostly in the correct setting up of the Blinn node - after that it's just marginal details that arguably have no absolutely "correct" value.
Is there a thread you can point me to on using the Blinn node correctly? I'ld love to put together a vss prop using Blinn to help in PP2010 with GC and IDL.
I was thinking so. Sadly, purchases of new computer parts have to wait til I get caught up from the holidays on my bills. Four kids equals Christmas being expensive.
New heatsink/fan will be on the list with the new video card, tablet and extra RAM I want as soon as I can afford it. Til then no IDL for me.
Sometimes crashes happen in P8 when the preference files become corrupt. You find them in:
C:Documents and SettingsUsernameApplication DataPoser8.0
Obviously the folder that I've stated as Username will be your name. Delete the .XML's and the preferred state.pz3. You have to have hidden files visible in order to see the folders.
Restart the computer and see what happens. If that doesn't clear things up then try looking in the General Preferences in Poser and uncheck where it says Use Binary Morphs if it is checked.
These where solutions that Smith Micro suggested and they have both worked for me
CHEERS!
Quote - Sometimes crashes happen in P8 when the preference files become corrupt. You find them in:
C:Documents and SettingsUsernameApplication DataPoser8.0
Obviously the folder that I've stated as Username will be your name. Delete the .XML's and the preferred state.pz3. You have to have hidden files visible in order to see the folders.
Restart the computer and see what happens. If that doesn't clear things up then try looking in the General Preferences in Poser and uncheck where it says Use Binary Morphs if it is checked.
These where solutions that Smith Micro suggested and they have both worked for me
CHEERS!
Well use binary morphs is already off. Sooo, I will try the other. If it works, bonus, but it isn't just poser crashing, it is the whole computer shutting down. Will try anything once though.
Well good news and bad news. The dumping of the xml files at least let me run a few tests with IDL. The bad news, I move up my render settings at all, still shuts down.
Reason has been found, it is overheating. Seems my CPU broke 100 C when trying to run the render with IDL. Eep! Well at least I know what needs replacing when I can afford it.
So, pretty please, can I please have the albinoize with AO?
New heatsink/fan and then I am tackling IDL properly... eventually.
About where I was last night, I think the Min Shading Rate was 0.30 actually. I tend to run multiple tests nudging the settings up a hair until it looks like I want. Even rendering without IDL is spiking my CPU to 85 C or so and it will shut down on those about 1 in 4 times.
The help is appreciated. Really, but I tend to being conservative with settings, got in the habit when I was rendering on my old IBM T-30 laptop never saw a reason to change.
Quote - ...
If you have PP2010 with render GC and IDL, you don't need the complicated shaders I have been using. It's mostly in the correct setting up of the Blinn node - after that it's just marginal details that arguably have no absolutely "correct" value.
...
I might have taken this out of context (because of the Miki3 talk) ... but does that mean, that, when using PP2010 + render GC + IDL, there could be a much easier shader setup for skin, as it's coming with the VSS PR3 currently?
Something like an "optimized" (or "downscaled") PP2010 shader, with minimal loss of detail?
That'd be cool, so to say, hehe.
Quote - Well good news and bad news. The dumping of the xml files at least let me run a few tests with IDL. The bad news, I move up my render settings at all, still shuts down.
Reason has been found, it is overheating. Seems my CPU broke 100 C when trying to run the render with IDL. Eep! Well at least I know what needs replacing when I can afford it.
So, pretty please, can I please have the albinoize with AO?
New heatsink/fan and then I am tackling IDL properly... eventually.
Even with a stock heatsink and fan it shouldn't be getting that hot. Make sure all dust is cleaned away, the fan on the heatsink is working, and then reseat the heatsink applying new thermal paste.
Handle every stressful situation like a dog.
If you can't eat it or play with it,
just pee on it and walk away. :-)
....................................................
I wouldnt have to manage my anger
if people would manage their stupidity......
Keep in mind, the tutorial was written for P8, which does not have render based gamma correction. The basis of this exercise was to balance Gc and HSV exponential for optimized rendering for realism. It did require gamma to be lowered to approx. 1.3 and HSV increased to compliment the conditions.
@ErickL88: BB did mention in a previous post, if you are using PP 2010+Gc+IDL, you could literally strip your figure of any MAT Room node work, reconnect just your texture images, reset your diffuse_color to white & diffuse_value to 0.8, and render. I am paraphrasing, of course, but simplifying your nodes will improve texture quality under PP2010.
Quote - Keep in mind, the tutorial was written for P8, which does not have render based gamma correction. The basis of this exercise was to balance Gc and HSV exponential for optimized rendering for realism. It did require gamma to be lowered to approx. 1.3 and HSV increased to compliment the conditions.
@ErickL88: BB did mention in a previous post, if you are using PP 2010+Gc+IDL, you could literally strip your figure of any MAT Room node work, reconnect just your texture images, reset your diffuse_color to white & diffuse_value to 0.8, and render. I am paraphrasing, of course, but simplifying your nodes will improve texture quality under PP2010.
Well, he did suggest using blinn. Which I'm not sure what to do with it to get a decent view.
Quote - @ErickL88: BB did mention in a previous post, if you are using PP 2010+Gc+IDL, you could literally strip your figure of any MAT Room node work, reconnect just your texture images, reset your diffuse_color to white & diffuse_value to 0.8, and render. I am paraphrasing, of course, but simplifying your nodes will improve texture quality under PP2010.
Oooooh .. things really can be so easy these days? I'm surprised ^^
Thanks for the info.
I have tested the vss too, its an impressive toolset. I am still wondering, is there a way to set colors without using poser's color dialog in the material settings? To rather input r,g,b directly? I find that the tint setting is very sensitive to even small adjustments, and the color pick dialog is very clumsy.
Quote - I have tested the vss too, its an impressive toolset. I am still wondering, is there a way to set colors without using poser's color dialog in the material settings? To rather input r,g,b directly? I find that the tint setting is very sensitive to even small adjustments, and the color pick dialog is very clumsy.
Besides the other dialog, I find connecting a User_Defined node to tint is handy. Let's you enter values with less work, more precision, and they can be greater than 1 (i.e. more than 255 out of 255).
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
Content Advisory! This message contains nudity
Was what I was thinking myself after pawing through the shader and having my kids convinced I was insane with all the muttering.
Thanks for the example, hborre. Now tomorrows goal, put in the new heatsink and finally run the scenes I have set up for IDL... Okay maybe the next week or two. There are a few of them to go through now and I have to share the good comp
Crevices are where secondary lighting becomes tertiary and quaternary - in other words, multiple bounces, resulting in localized accentuation of the secondary lighting importance.
Shader GC increases the luminance in crevices and for realism purposes should not be used AT ALL with IDL, since it gives incorrect information to the lighting model, which being magnified in crevices creates an obvious "glow".
However, with no render GC, final gamma compensation must be addressed. Postwork is an option, but I found a compromise for P8. Using HSV ETM, a small amount of shader gamma, and reduced faked SSS (redness in darker areas), which I demonstrated in the P8SSL tutorial scene.
However, as much as we like that outcome, it doesn't hold a candle to PPro 2010 IDL + render GC.
Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)
Actually, 0.220 is said to be as low as you can go on the bias for shadows without artifacts. I was happy with that setting when I was using ray traced shadows. You can use depth mapped ones with IDL though. I think people switched to raytraced as renders were speedier, but speedier doesn't necessarily mean better.
CHEERS!
I believe there's improvement over the course of the latest versions and service releases. I've gone lower than .22 many times with PP2010 without noticing artifacts. I don't try to push it below about .15 tho (but usually that would take forever to render anyway).
IIRC I don't think you're getting true IDL with depth mapped shadows, but I may be wrong there.
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Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X/MSI MAG570 Tomahawk X570/Zotac Geforce GTX 1650 Super 4GB/32GB OLOy RAM
Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3
o.k., then that's the key step I was looking for in P8 - use hsv exp tone mapping/gain (1.67/1.33) with IDL, and turn off all the shader GC nodes. whilst the manual is not clear on the physical units of how far the raytrace shadow min bias shifts samples away from the posersurface, it appears 0.01 causes self-shadowing on the skin and odd shadow edges on the ground plane (in combination with medium render settings). at 0.1 those artifacts aren't very noticeable at high-quality render settings. maybe it's analogous to the displacement bounds.
I never got on with all that tone mapping, I eventually found that my renders looked better with it off. I remember having my render settings quite high at one point. I tried doing a GI render with a single V4. I set it going before I left the house at 9am, when I got back well after 4pm it was still pre-calculating!!
You can reach a nice trade-off between speed and quality. My ratyrace bounces are never set above 2.
CHEERS!
Content Advisory! This message contains nudity
Rendered in PoserPro 2010 with material-based AO, raytraced shadows, and render-engine GC enabled. The lighting is an original setup consisting of two rim spotlights (one on either side to keep the back lighting symmetrical), one fill spotlight, and one main spotlight, all with inverse square falloff.
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I hope one day that the Poser development team will add a wrapper or envelope node. A node that can contain a lot of other nodes, but only expose to the user the input and output channels, and maybe user changeable parameters.
I would also love to see a Python programmable node, where the script-writer could program the input and output channels, and the user changeable parameters.
I could not actually make a lot of use out of such nodes on my own, but they would allow for better organization, and simplification of the Advanced Material Room, and imagine the magic that bagginsBill could work with nodes like that.
And, some of us are ready to pay for that stuff that bagginsBill does not want to give away for free.
LMK
Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.