snickers about what you said about fear, odf. There's something true about it (not completely - I found that fear leads to lonliness, not to hate in many cases) but when I think about people being afraid about other (different looking or thinking) people: Definitly yes.

@Shante: It may sound strange to you but as soon as I left school and did not HAVE TO learn anymore I suddenly found that learning is the best way for me to relax. As long as I can learn and think about what I want - the relaxing part is the distraction from everything that worries me. Isn't it strange how different people are?

ThespiSis: All the material-poses I wrote are made as pz2. So you should have no trouble. As long as I want to texture a group of things pz2 is good. If I want something versatile to be added to any material zone (a metal-shader, plastic surface or such) mt5 is the way to go. But I think that DS can't handle Poser materials anyway.

What I'm really wondering about is that so few people heard about pmd files. Poser 6 was released in 2005 - this was six years ago! So this is hardly something that can be called exotic or brandnew. 

And as said: Send us a DS-Guru (or a whole flock of them) to help us with making things DS ready, please - or gather together in the DAZ forums and pick up things to alter them to your behalf. Don't forget that this is no commercial project. We either have our daytime jobs to care for or are merchants who go on creating products for paying our bills, so there's definitly not enough time (and energy) left to start with the nuts and bolts of a second software now.

I mention these things mainly for those who are considering commercial products. ODF's already said he's adding the extra channels, so that's covered. Hopefully vendors who work primarily in Poser will use them for products they put up for sale.

But even for the freebies makers, a little compatibility is a nice touch. When I do something that includes textures (and I'm not a vendor, so all of mine are freebies), I use a script in DS to convert the textures to pz2, then open them in Poser and tweak them. My settings are probably not ideal since I don't use Poser on a regular basis, but I do make an effort even still. I even go back after I've tweaked them to convert the MAT files created by P6 back to pz2s so those with earlier versions can use them. There's probably a way to make it save as pz2 (maybe a python script...lol), but I don't know how, so I do it in a text editor.

Quote - snickers about what you said about fear, odf. There's something true about it (not completely - I found that fear leads to lonliness, not to hate in many cases) but when I think about people being afraid about other (different looking or thinking) people: Definitly yes.

@Shante: It may sound strange to you but as soon as I left school and did not HAVE TO learn anymore I suddenly found that learning is the best way for me to relax. As long as I can learn and think about what I want - the relaxing part is the distraction from everything that worries me. Isn't it strange how different people are?

ODF is right. All is connected...one ugly sentiment feeding the other and in turn feeding off the other. Fear and pain and anger and hate, depression and frustration, loss and death of the soul while the body lives or the death of others around you while you stand by helplessly, impotent to the flow and ebb of life theirs or yours, all lead to anger and fear and hate. It is all a result of having NO CONTROL.

For the past five years or so I have been caring for two other older people. Last year   I lost the both of them with 7 months. My dad within 3 days in November of 09 and my mother in July 2 of '10. I was her primary care giver for her for 7 months 24/7 and had no time to think or plan or play let alone learn. I had to focus all I could manage for her care. I gave up my job, I gave up my creativity,(no time for dreams and chimeras or feding my MUSE when there is someone dying who needs your love and decisions and full care). Their death after that took a big piece of me I am still trying futiley to reckon with.

A week after my mother died my father's younger brother died almost exactly to the day and hour as my mother on week before.

Unless one passes that way one can never really understand why I am so RIGID. Why I am so ANGRY. Why I have given up on anything so "valuless" as Poser or artwork or even learning....anything. I am healing and trying desperately to get my broken "self" back into the LIFE stream.

This is why I have difficulty wrapping my brain, whatever I have left of it, around these concepts. I was never the sharpest nail in the bag but I always managed to bring my own rasp and in so doing got by fairly well in life. Learning what was needed and sometimes surprinsing evenmyself as to what I did managet to learn.

I have two degrees and speak three languages. I am well traveled and well read. But it amounts to nothing if your heart breaks.

I have always been a struggling starving artist. Then I got older and didn't want to starve anymore, so I worked for someone else. For 20 years I ate crow working for less thatn what I felt I was giving back. Then I lost my job.

For 5 years I strufgled to find another without success, that whole time my family backed me up with love and support and money.

Then lost my muse whrn my parents started to get sick.

Then lost three people in my family who played an important role in my life.

I am now here, on this thread, supplying an Off Topic diatribe, trying to make you understand why some people are so diametrically different in how they handle the learning process and what they use to heal.

I have been a student of sorts all my life but some things enter and register and some things don't.

3D didn't.....except you are including Poser and even that, only the basics. I still don't have a clue how to set up and use magnets so go figure!  ;)

Sorry all for this!

Unless one passes that way one can never really understand why I am so RIGID. Why I am so ANGRY. Why I have given up on anything so "valuless" as Poser or artwork or even learning....anything. I am healing and trying desperately to get my broken "self" back into the LIFE stream.

Sounds like you're long over due for a road trip.

kickin' the bot.

I've lost two wives, shante, one to heart attack, one to cancer.  I think I understand what you're feeling, especially the rage part.  If you need someone's ear to bend in private, feel free to use mine.

Speaking of private messages, could someone privately bring me up to speed on .xmp files, how they're created, and such?  I don't want to derail the thread with something unrelated to Antonia.

I've made three more changes on the experimental WW (and prospective version 1.0.1) branch:

1. Added lots of empty PBMCC_xx channels.

2. Added the version number 1.0 to all OBJ, CR2 and figure names.

3. Blocked all translations of the hip (former hip2) actor by setting both limits to 0.

This version can be downloaded from http://github.com/odf/Antonia.Polygon/zipball/WW.

As before, remember that this is only for testing purposes at the moment (and as a reference for PhilC). It will become the official version as soon as WW support is sufficiently progressed.

When this goes public, I'm thinking about creating a registry of 1.0.1-compatible content on Antonia's official site. I don't think I'll have the time to test everything myself, so there are two options for this: either I just trust the creators when they tell me their product is 1.0.1-ready (probably good enough) or I'll volunteer a group of testers to confirm that those products do indeed work. Obviously, I'll not go sifting through all the download sites myself, so I'll probably ask creators to mail me at Antonia.Polygon@gmail.com with some standardized subject line.

Sound reasonable?

I know what you mean shante, sorry for your losses, it's just a year since I lost my dad and just now starting to get it back together again.

hang in there

OK 97 hits on the filelocker link.  When it hits 100,  i'm going to remove it.  It will be up to those who downloaded the AntoniaFBMs to distribute them after that.

i got one more promise to keep here before i leave.

@odf,

Quote - When this goes public, I'm thinking about creating a registry of 1.0.1-compatible content on Antonia's official site[...] either I just trust the creators when they tell me their product is 1.0.1-ready (probably good enough) or I'll volunteer a group of testers to confirm that those products do indeed work.

I think in general you could trust the creators when they say their product is 1.0.1-ready. Might still be handy to have a bank of testers you can call on. Personally I don't mind testing the odd product here and there, but don't want to get heavily involved in testing a lot of content.

An alternative, or adjunct, to a bank of testers, might be a place where users could post reviews of Antonia content.

Quote - This version can be downloaded from http://github.com/odf/Antonia.Polygon/zipball/WW.

As before, remember that this is only for testing purposes at the moment (and as a reference for PhilC). It will become the official version as soon as WW support is sufficiently progressed.

Sound reasonable?

1. • Just to be as nitpicking as a computer can be: I note in this test version the waist actor is named 'waist' (all lowecase) where the rest of the actors have a capital for first character, so for consistency I suggest to reanme the waist as Waist. PC users can be sloppy about capitalisation, but Poser still bears the marks of it's MAC origin can be very peculiar at times. 
2. • I note the waist (Waist?) will be the root node, so the one holding the  translations and rotations usually held by 'Hip'.  Personally I am happy with that, but it is a bit an uncommon arrangement. I agree the area now named 'waist' is a much better 'reference point' for the body than the hip.
3. • Those of you who want to do some side-by-side testing are suggested to do a rigorous renaming of files and resources to make sure Poser takes the right version of the object file, and for yourself to keep the 2 apart. I use codename 'Rose' for the WW adapted version. (from 'second hand Rose', indeed), and renamed folders, the figure and the .obj files and their reference in the .cr2's to avoid mixing-up.

103 hits.  i'm now deleting the link to get ready to keep my second promise.

To all those that downloaded the FBMs,  please pass 'em along.

I was 98...;) I hate it when files vanish into the abyss.

Quote - 103 hits.  i'm now deleting the link to get ready to keep my second promise.

To all those that downloaded the FBMs,  please pass 'em along.

:)

What was your second promise!?

Oh goodness, I am so excited. (something I desperately needed!)

Surely someone can upload those FBM's to Antonia's Freebie page hosted by BluEcho.

Yes, that would be very nice if someone could upload the FBMs to the freebie page! I missed the download - I saw it today when I checked my download directory... too bad!

I will pick up the new Antonia and check what I've made during the weekend, correct it if needed and then... what would you recommend? Replace the files we have now (mainly the poses and the morph) with the corrected versions or hold these back until Antonia goes "gold" with WW2 support?

@shante: That's exactly what I meant - it is still a miracle to me how different people react and try to cure their wounds. I've been through this and that and remember what you decribed from the time where my mother died from brain cancer. And, strange enough (and now it makes me feel a bit like a monster), learning new things was able to stop the caroussel of thoughts for a while. In other words: Whatever is able to give you peace of mind, and if only for a while, is a good thing.

@bagoas,

Quote - 1) - Just to be as nitpicking as a computer can be: I note in this test version the waist actor is named 'waist' (all lowecase) where the rest of the actors have a capital for first characte.

No. No actor in Antonioa, or any other major figure I can think of, starts with a capital letter (except "BODY").

Quote - No. No actor in Antonioa, or any other major figure I can think of, starts with a capital letter (except "BODY").

I think bagoas may be referring to external names which are visible within Poser, rather than the actor internal names.  The name users can see in Poser is lowercase, whereas all of the others look like they're capitalized.

And if that's the worst problem we can find, we must be looking pretty good!  :laugh:  :woot:

@odf: Given that the Walk Designer, as well as poses, may end up translating the newly-designated Hip (actor formerly known as Hip2), would it perhaps make sense to un-hide the translation dials for the actor, so a user can easily correct any oddities which crop up?  Or would that just create more potential confusion? 

Internal names are lowercase, but names that can be edited of Hip, Hip2, Abdomen etc. start with a capital.

I am not sure where Poser uses the internal en where the user names.

Quote - And if that's the worst problem we can find, we must be looking pretty good!  :laugh:  :woot:

I now understand we are not changing the hierarchy. Then names have no implied magic, (other than for WW, LOL!), so indeed there should be no real issues if the renaming is done consistently.

@bagoas,

Ah, you were referring to the Display Name of the waist actor. Yes you are right, I never look at an actor's Display Name, so never notice it.

Quote - 2) - I note the waist (Waist?) will be the root node, so the one holding the  translations and rotations usually held by 'Hip'.  Personally I am happy with that, but it is a bit an uncommon arrangement. I agree the area now named 'waist' is a much better 'reference point' for the body than the hip.

In general, I agree with this comment. However having the (I'm searching for the right word here, but can't find it) "base actor" as waist, does create some problems. One is incompatibility with stock poses, but it is probably unfair to ask that a pose for another figure should work on Antonia.

Another, and to my mind more serious problem, is incompatibility with the Walk Designer. The Walk Designer adds translations and rotations to the actor named "hip". In normal figures, these translations and rotations are inherited by the other actors, but in Antonia-WW, nothing is inherited above the hip! This makes for an Irish Dancing type of walk, where the upper body is unaffected by what happens below. Technically speaking this version is not fully compatible with the Walk Designer. However it may not be as bad as it sounds, the result of this technical incompatibly may not necessarily be aesthetically displeasing. I think we need more evidence from practical experience, before making a judgement on that one.

@Cage,

Quote - @odf: Given that the Walk Designer, as well as poses, may end up translating the newly-designated Hip (actor formerly known as Hip2), would it perhaps make sense to un-hide the translation dials for the actor, so a user can easily correct any oddities which crop up?  Or would that just create more potential confusion?

Now that the limits for hip translation have been forced to zero in the latest version (yes?), I don't think this is a problem any more (if the WD respects limits, which I think it does). But I wonder if the forced limits are impacting on how the feet intersect with the ground in the WD?

Quote - Now that the limits for hip translation have been forced to zero in the latest version (yes?), I don't think this is a problem any more (if the WD respects limits, which I think it does). But I wonder if the forced limits are impacting on how the feet intersect with the ground?

Ah!  That's part of the update I've failed to port over to my characters, which I'm using for testing.  Do the limits work when the user has "Use Limits" off?

I could see potential for translation problems with the Walk Designer, if limits are forced.  If the WD is going to translate the actor named "Hip", using limits might cause it to leave out all translation, which could be bad all over.  The best solution I can imagine would be to transfer translations and rotations applied to Hip over to Waist.  That could be done using a Python script, but D|S users would need their own version.  (We really need a Daz scriptor around here.  :lol:  Does anyone know Daz scripting?  Amy_Amei?  Anyone?)

But I've also gotten a bit lost in the discussion about the actor name changes.    I'm not sure what issues may have been discussed and/or resolved already.

There is a history of special versions of some figures, intended specifically for the Walk Designer, IIRC.  Perhaps that's what is needed for Antonia?  A special WD build?  Assuming that's something we can even work out.  Does the WD require special data files for the figure rigging?  I'm a WD ignoramus, sadly.    Cage is not one of the Twelve Poser Animators.  :lol:

I don't think walk designer compatibility is an issue with DS. I don't it's data is even accessible there. 

Quote - I don't think walk designer compatibility is an issue with DS. I don't it's data is even accessible there.

Does D|S have its own version of the Walk Designer?  I've never used Daz Studio, so I know nothing.  Nothing!  :lol:

There are various walk cycle animations in the folder :Runtime:Libraries:Pose:WalkDesigner.  Could we simply create a set of Antonia walk cycle poses, for use with the WD?  These could be created using the pre-1.0.1 build of Antonia, perhaps porting over the motions from an existing set of cycles.

I don't know if that would help anything, or present any hope of circumventing the translation issues.  :unsure:

I think the bigger question is will the PuppetMaster BiPed scripts that came with Poser 8 and Poser Pro convert poses to Antonia's alternative body structure properly.

Quoting myself.

Quote - But I wonder if the forced limits are impacting on how the feet intersect with the ground in the WD?

I don't think so. The Walk Designer seems to use some sort of "Drop to Floor" for the feet, so the foots altitude should not be a problem. Am less sure about the bend angle. On the other hand, the distance between the hip and foot affects how, and how much the legs bend. But perhaps I should stop speculating and do some tests. Things have been moving so fast lately, that speculation is all I have had time for.

Q: "Do the limits work when the user has "Use Limits" off?"

A: Yes.

Quote: I could see potential for translation problems with the Walk Designer, if limits are forced.  If the WD is going to translate the actor named "Hip", using limits might cause it to leave out all translation, which could be bad all over.

Yes. :(

On the other hand leaving the limits unforced has implications for applying stock poses, unless some action is taken to transfer translations applied to Hip over to Waist, as you suggest.

For stock poses, and the WD, it seems that transferring the translations and rotations would be desirable. But would this be desirable for manual posing, and what impact might this have for saving poses? I don't know.

I did try transferring rotations from the hip (former hip2) to the waist, using ERC. Unfortunately I ran into problems. yRotating the hip caused distortions in the mesh if the rotation exceeded 70°. There were also problems with xrot and zrot. Perhaps this will work better if implemented through Python.

Quote: "Could we simply create a set of Antonia walk cycle poses, for use with the WD?"

I can't swear to this without checking, but I think some aspects of the way WD handles the hip are hard coded into the WD. [edit] I don't think you can tell the WD to treat the "waist" as "hip".

Also note that if you use a "walk blend" (animated walk pz2) in the Walk Designer, the output is not identical to input + BODY translation. I find that not knowing how the WD works internally, makes it very hard to construct poses for the WD. In fact the WD just plain sucks, and I hope someday someone will design a replacement for it, that gives better results and more  user control!

Quote - I can't swear to this without checking, but I think some aspects of the way WD handles the hip are hard coded into the WD.

Looking at one of the WD poses, I see that the Hip actor has keyframed translations.  This may mean that the "in place" Hip translations are present in the poses, in which case an alternate set of Antonia WD files might help.

Where real problems would come up is when a walk path is applied, I suspect.  That's pretty definitely hard-coded, so we'd need a Python script, there.

There could be issues with distributing the existing walk designer poses.  Something like odf's renaming script could be distributed, though, to create Antonia-friendly copies with new names to avoid overwriting anything.

The resulting files still wouldn't be properly calibrated for Antonia's joint setup or angles of limbs, but they might solve the basic translation problems. 

If this is more important than testing out poses I will try out Puppet Master with the WW2-ready-Antonia. This will take a while as I am not the big genious when it comes to set up a new figure (and I think this is the 6th or 7th time I do this with Antonia) but I will post results as soon as I am ready.

Oh and: Tomorrow I will take a day off, Leo brought two cards for a handball game home (EHF cup). So I will try my best to clear up some things before I go to bed and be back on Sunday (if I can resist to have a look into this thread).

@SaintFox: We are Antonia of Borg. Resistance is futile! :lol:

Quote - We are Antonia of Borg. Resistance is futile!

Well, I'm scared, now.  :scared:  Who else is scared?  :lol:

I don't know if this would be considered similar, but ds has Animate, which (I think) uses Aniblocks--sets of animated poses that can fit together easily.

I don't use animation except for tricky dynamics poses, though, so don't quote me on that.

Quote "Looking at one of the WD poses, I see that the Hip actor has keyframed translations.  This may mean that the "in place" Hip translations are present in the poses, in which case an alternate set of Antonia WD files might help."

You may be right, in which case there is more hope!

Quote "Where real problems would come up is when a walk path is applied, I suspect.  That's pretty definitely hard-coded, so we'd need a Python script, there."

I doubt that the path would cause any major problems. It is the BODY translations that follow the path, not the hip.

P.S.

But I don't know about rotations when the path changes direction, whether that is in the BODY or hip.

Quote - I doubt that the path would cause any major problems. It is the BODY translations that follow the path, not the hip.

I didn't realize that.  That is good news.  :laugh:

It might at least be worth trying to rename the actors in some WD poses, creating Antonia versions, then testing them in the WD.  I'm hip-deep in prepping a character update, but I might try the idea a bit later, if no one beats me to it.

Quote - But I don't know about rotations when the path changes direction, whether that is in the BODY or hip.

I would assume Hip, because the displaced BODY would continue to rotate around its world origin.  I think.  Rotating a translated BODY actor does weird things.  So those rotations might still need to be corrected using Python.  But.  That gets tricky, because the hip rotates in the in-place animation and it would all get mixed up.  Hmm.  :unsure:

Edit.  No, our Hip2 renamed to Hip would get those rotations, so they'd be separate and a script could easily mix them in with our Waist actor's rotations.

@SaintFox: We are Antonia of Borg. Resistance is futile!

Ah, yep, now... I understand why I am standing up in the night, half sleeping and scaring my neighbours and the cats by making gymnastic movements in front of the window while whispering "X-rotate, z-rotate... bend the thigh for 20 more degrees..."*

Soooo.... I opened the dat-file I've created (the buggy one that uses to twist the feet ) and found that it uses plain text like this

hip    0.000000    0.396689    -0.010000    0.000000    0.506689    -0.010000
hip2    0.000000    0.407000    -0.022000    -0.036000    0.386000    -0.023000

I will try to save this and the text with the body rotations with altered names under Antonia1-0.dat and and Antonia1-0.txt and see what I get.

Since the WD discussion is rather specific and could get very technical quickly, may I suggest starting a separate thread for it, possibly in the Poser Technical forum, and posting a link in here? That way folks who are versed in WD but do not follow this thread closely would get a chance to chime in, as well. Obviously, occasional progress updates for us ignoramuses would be very welcome.

I just checked, and changes in the direction of the walk path are also implimented in the BODY, not the hip. So that is good news!

Quote - I just checked, and changes in the direction of the walk path are also implimented in the BODY, not the hip. So that is good news!

Yay!

I started a new thread in the Poser Technical Forum.

Antonia & Walk Designer

Please post any further discussion on Antonia-WW and the Walk Designer to this thread.

Ahhh... this answers my question I've posted there!

Wow! The Walk Designer thread sucked all the air out of here! :blink:

Poses V4

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2171365

Xcellent idea, cool animation Flavio !

I just uploaded the New bodysuit and head moprh to the freebie section.

I also made a walking cycle animated pose (31) frames (included and the poses folder).

I'll post the link for the freebie a.s.a. it's up !

Thanks ...

Antonio.

pcooke@philc.net

Thanks.

Get it here :

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/freestuff/details.php?item_id=63452

Hmmm...she looks a little stiff. There should be some movement in the hips.

@philc: Looks great!