Folks, I appreciate the time and work involved in making and marketing or giving away props, figures, textures and such.  But please, no more !!!!! in front of every name of folders, textures, objects, props and characters!  It really is time consuming to undo this into some sensible scheme in my runtime.

And.... Thank you!

o.k.

sic scribere, sic facere !!!!!

Not going to happen. We have complained about this for years. Unless the marketplace inforces this to not happen it will continue forever. Blame DAZ. IIRC they were the ones that started it. Or took advantage of it the most. Now you see so many merchants that want to be on top.

I pretty much have most of those that do it on my black list. Yes I have a long list.

I also got frustrated by this. Now I extract all my stuff to a desktop folder, do the renaming there before I just drag it over into my runtime. Its a lot easier that way rather than having to search in my runtime for the files for renaming. Also I sought by date so you know the latest files in each catagory is always at the top of the list.

Add me to the list of people who hate it.  I never do it with my stuff; I figure people are bright enough to find the folders without my resorting to cheap tricks.

I blame the Yahoo! internet search company !!!!! (sic)

Blame lazy merchants.

I think it started out so their working dir would sort to the top while working and packaging it.  Some fix it.  Some blow it off as the end user's problem.

I always install to an empty folder and then drag the stuff to my runtime where I want it anyway and that is when I rename it.

Its been going on for nearly 2 decades.  Its not gonna stop no matter how much you bitch.

I usually just bite the bullet and rename the folders as I see fit, so things fit in a proper alphabetical order.. I do agree though that it's really bad practice to start folders and names with !!! and who knows what else.

can someone show me what this is about. what marketing?

I hope I don't get creamed for this but,  --echoing Grappo--

...what all the hoopla is (with good reason) the merchants adding exclamation points, double colons, underscores into folders in Libraries (Pose Files), and Textures that are not really needed. 

ex.: !!!JartzV4!!! on the Pose library when in fact it would just simply be: Jartz V4 without the (!!!).

For the life of me, I don't understand it either.  Whether it's business practice or not.

There you have it.

I too was bewildered with the original post.  At first, I thought it was all about the flooding of texture sets and such, but...

Quote - Its been going on for nearly 2 decades.  Its not gonna stop no matter how much you bitch.

Been going on at least as long as telephone directories, if not longer- think AAA Cabs. These days to get in first with adverts/listings you have to pay Google a lot of money :)

It is especially annoying in the geometries folder to have !!!!MyFreeToys!!!! then having to change this to MyFreeToys or better, GeegeesFreeToys means changing within the files that reference the object files within that folder.  That is what I have been doing for hours, so pardon if I sound frantic!

I'm very new to poser and when i realized all the free and paid runtime files i'd been amassing were so disorganized with underscores and exlamations...it was already too late.

Now i guess i'll have to spend a day renaming everything from scratch. :(

Lol I took a day off from work to do that. The only folder that I haven't touched is my props folder. Its a mess. Now I have to open the charecter or pz3 files to see what props match it. Things for clothing and v4 are mixed with things from scenes...its quite dawnting. The same goes for my materials folder. Why cant people just use the same name for each folder in each catagory? Nowadays the products I've purchased do that, but occasionally you get the odd one that still has various names.

Quote - I think it started out so their working dir would sort to the top while working and packaging it.  Some fix it.  Some blow it off as the end user's problem.

Actually, I think it was an underhanded means of getting around the Poser 4 (and I presume, earlier) limit of how many folders you could have in each section of the library before it wouldn't let you access any more. Particularly with the hack of using pose files to apply materials causing the Pose folder to fill up. Another hack was renaming extensions and placing MAT poses in the Camera folder.

Putting the various symbols in front of the name ensured that the folder would be placed at the top of the list, and this someone else's folder would be made inaccessible.

However, with Poser 5 introducing the ability to have multiple runtimes, there is no need to do that any more, and the practice really, really needs to die.

Since I always rename and reorganize files anyway, it really doesn't bother me. A good file renaming utility makes it easier, but that's just my view. I'm irritated by all the .DS_Store and thumbs.db files that litter things. The former are useless on a PC and the latter are just useless. Still, as the OP says, it takes a lot of time and effort to produce things and then give them away, so I figure I can invest a little time and effort to fix them up to suit my tastes :-)

If I may take this idea a step further.  I archive files by keeping the original zip, but a lot of zip files are poorly named. For example "V4shirt" zip name is "xyz.zip".

Also I have some older files, mostly freebies of clothes that I have no idea what figure they go to because the creator neglected to mention that in the read me! Probably I should not complain about that since they were freebies ^ ^;

I agree with a lot of the above about file and folder naming, but this is not the most heinous of the various 'crimes' that vendors - not just here, but all the other sites - perpetrate. I'm going to indulge myself by briefly running through some of the gripes I have.

1. Textures. For !*@'s sake vendors, get your monitors properly set up and calibrated. Skin textures can vary from screaming blue to bright red. It's not like the internet has a shortage of images you could use for reference. Hint: if they look wrong on your monitor, it's probably your monitor that's wrong.

2. Weird shader nodes on hair. Hair does not glow, so please stop using anything in the ambient and translucence nodes: diffuse, transparency and a bit of specular are fine, anything else is overkill, and just plain WRONG in the context of Poser 8 / PoserPro 2010 using IDL.

3. Expressions and Poses: I've bought a few of these recently and was surprised that the expressions reset all the custom shaping morphs to zero - that's just plain sloppy. And the same with poses that move the character back to default loading position (X, Y and Z trans = zero) and / or reset the shaping morphs back to zero.

Every damned thing I buy I have to test and, usually, correct: it's rare that something's put together properly and 'just works'.

OK, rant over.

Quote - > Quote - Its been going on for nearly 2 decades.  Its not gonna stop no matter how much you bitch.

Been going on at least as long as telephone directories, if not longer- think AAA Cabs. These days to get in first with adverts/listings you have to pay Google a lot of money :)

That is completely irrelevant.  Sure for a phone book but for a poser runtime,  BS.  There is no marketing involved.  You ALREADY bought the product.

I had asked many years ago why a certain merchant had done that and she told me that she named it that so it sorted to the top in her runtime while developing the product.  This, of course was Poser3/4 times where multiple runtimes were not an option.  Then, to a certain degree, it made sence.  I also asked why it didn't get renamed prior to packaging and again, it was explained that it was an oversite.  Eventually most of her products became packaged without the !!'s but, sometimes, even today, they appear.

With today's versions of poser there is NO EXCUSE any longer.  All versions of poser now allow multiple runtimes and so does DS.  Setting up a runtime for a product should be the FIRST STEP and there is no need for the !!'s any more.  NOW, its habit.  NOW its lazyness.

Decades ago, ok, maybe some use.  Today?  No.  Not any more.

I often wonder how much time we all waste fighting with this mess when we should be making cool pictures...

I think the whole sloppy/inconsiderate naming thing started with the Poser and DAZ developers themselves. The inconsistencies start with the naming of the basic library categories (Figures, Expressions etc) not matching their corresponding folders (Character, Faces etc) and then it all gets worse from there. In Poser7 they started putting conforming clothes in the Props area, I don't know if they still do it, and fancy hair in the figures area. Hair is hair, for crying out loud, why can't it all be in one place?

If you install something directly into your runtime you might never see it again, its parts are scattered forever in obscure and unlikely corners of your runtime because of stupid file naming.

The inconsistent naming of files and folders really drives me crazy when I'm trying to find a texture or obj to work on it. That started with early versions of Poser, where the geometry file and folder names bore no resemblance at all to the names of the items in the library browser. Every version seems to get worse and DAZ does it too.

Many of the community content creators seem to be competing to see who can make the deepest folder trees for the simplest products. A simple item doesn't need 5 sub-sub-sub-folders, I don't care who you are. And if you are going the complex folder route, be consistent from one product to the next. Otherwise I get one folder tree called "kewl productions" with a hat in it, and another whole tree called "kewl-productions" with a vest at the end of it. The 2 products should have ended up in the same place, but because of your sloppiness every customer has cleanup work to do.

Quote - I often wonder how much time we all waste fighting with this mess when we should be making cool pictures...

I think the whole sloppy/inconsiderate naming thing started with the Poser and DAZ developers themselves. The inconsistencies start with the naming of the basic library categories (Figures, Expressions etc) not matching their corresponding folders (Character, Faces etc) and then it all gets worse from there. In Poser7 they started putting conforming clothes in the Props area, I don't know if they still do it, and fancy hair in the figures area. Hair is hair, for crying out loud, why can't it all be in one place?

They changed what they call Faces and Figures a few versions back.  For compatibility, they left the folder names the same but only changed the titles in the library,  And it makes sense to do it that way.  Why they changed the titles, who the hell knows.

Because its not.

Conforming clothes are FIGURES, they have bones.  Dynamic clothes are PROPS, static, unboned objects.

No, hair is not always hair.  True hair is an auto-parenting prop really.  It has no bones and it is closer to a prop than anything.  Some hair is not really hair (though, by a mesh it looks like it).  Many modern hair items are really FIGURES.  Like conforming clothes, they have bones and are posable.  These types of hair are not the same as the true hair props.

Currently, Poser requires the different types of items to be in their respective folders.  WHY this is so today I don't know.  All it has to do is look at the file extension and it will know what it is.  I see NO reason why a conforming clothing item can't be in the same HD folder as a dynamic dress.  The only reasion I would not do it is to distinguish conforming from dynamic.

Quote - Currently, Poser requires the different types of items to be in their respective folders.  WHY this is so today I don't know.  All it has to do is look at the file extension and it will know what it is. 

That's what I'm getting at. Only .hr2 files will show up in the hair browser, only pp2 files will show up in props, only cr2 in figures and so on. The browser itself is picky about extensions, but Poser itself isn't. You can change any poser file extension to any other extension and it won't change the way it works - you'll have to move it to the relevant folder so you can see it to select it, but vicky renamed to hr2 will load from the hair folder or renamed to pp2 will load from the props window, once she's loaded she's the same old vicky.

That's what Poser did with, say, the P6 clothes. They gave everythingf a pp2 (ppz actually) extension and stuck it in the props folder, conforming and dynamic alike. Once you load, say, james's jacket from Props it behaves as a figure, you can't save it back to Props because it is a figure.

Same for hair. Rename a conforming hair figure to .hr2 and you can put it with the hair props. Sure, you'd have to remember to 'conform to', just as you now have to do with James's jacket 'prop'.

We will see change!

YES WE CAN!

Pfttt!!! Much ado about nothing!

Besides the !!!!!!!!!!!!! issue!!!. The one that drives me up the wall is you are in a folder as an example of a character named Elizabeth (nice long name to start with). OK so we know where we are right. So the vendor names the pz2 something line !1 - Elizabeth - Mat - Lips-Red 01

Geesh we are in the Elizabeth folder, and if you want to group all the lip mat pose together the call them lips01, lips02, etc.. Not a name that shows up in library that is wider then the icon it goes under!!!!!!!!! an a few more to make my point!!!!!!!!!!!!.

Quote - Currently, Poser requires the different types of items to be in their respective folders. 

What version of Poser are you using? I'm using P8 and I don't have that problem.

I gave up on the default installations and started using my own approach. Characters go in the Characters folder along with their mats, poses, props and anything else that was built specifically for the figure. Hair goes in the Hair folder regardless of what type of file it is. If it's hair, it goes in the Hair folder. Clothing whether conforming or dynamic, goes in the Materials folder.

Quote - Conforming clothes are FIGURES, they have bones.  Dynamic clothes are PROPS, static, unboned objects. No, hair is not always hair.  True hair is an auto-parenting prop really.  It has no bones and it is closer to a prop than anything.  Some hair is not really hair (though, by a mesh it looks like it).  Many modern hair items are really FIGURES.  Like conforming clothes, they have bones and are posable.  These types of hair are not the same as the true hair props.

All of which is no doubt true and of great importance to developers and vendors, but not to me. I am a user, not a developer. When I want to add hair to a figure, my primary consideration is finding hair that looks right. A secondary consideration might be the kind of file it is. 

Software interfaces should be designed with the user in mind, and, if at all possible, the interface should not be designed by the same people writing the code, because what you get is what you see with Poser - an interface designed from the developer's point of view.

It is somewhat annoying, I admit.  However, I always rename the folders in the main library folders anyway, and I don't often go looking for the texture maps or geometry files, so it doesn't really bother me all that much.

What really bugs me are the thumbs.db files and .DS_store files that are often left in the zip.  Quite often 1 per folder, which can sometimes result in dozens of files adding bulk to the zip.  IMHO part of beta testing is taking notice of that kind of stuff, and if you beta test and neglect to bring that to the vendors attention so it can be fixed, then you really have no business beta testing.

I made a thread about it here:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=3676402

Note:  the word "you" is not directed to any one person, it is used in the general sense.

I wonder if the problem with thumbs.db files and .DS_store is due to people not having "show all hidden folders" turned on. So they don't even know they are there.

"What really bugs me are the thumbs.db files..."

That reminds me. Earlier this week I did a search for thumbs.db on my "new" computer which is about 1 1/2 years old and deleted those files. It was abut 400mb worth O.O

@ SteveJax - Admittedly, not of earth shattering importance but it's a problem many Poser users dislike and have done for a long time.  If - like me - you install a lot of stuff at one go, it's easy to spend hours reorganizing.  All of which takes away from actually using the damn things.  Not good; vendors should make things as straightforward to use as possible.

@ grichter, re long MAT names - Sometimes it's hard to give a MAT a meaningful (ie useful) name and keep it short enough to be seen in Poser's library.  I wish the library view would allow for text to scroll onto a new line, or even two.

@ Acadia, Tashar & jerr - AFAIK, thumbs.db is present when a person has Thumbnail view enabled in Windows and checks the "cache thumbnail" option.  Since I always have List view, I never have that problem, except for clearing out other people's thumbs.db.

That's what I was talking about cleaning others. Me, I have thumbs enabled so I can see the textures before loading or working on something.

Quote - @ SteveJax - Admittedly, not of earth shattering importance but it's a problem many Poser users dislike and have done for a long time.  If - like me - you install a lot of stuff at one go, it's easy to spend hours reorganizing.  All of which takes away from actually using the damn things.  Not good; vendors should make things as straightforward to use as possible.

Well to me it doesn't matter really what they do because anything that exists under :Runtime:Libraries: is going to end up being reoganised/renamed/relocated beyond recognition by me anyway and I never touch :runtime:Geometries: or :Runtime:Textures:

Quote - Every damned thing I buy I have to test and, usually, correct: it's rare that something's put together properly and 'just works'.

OK, rant over.

Ya' know, it would really help if people would quit giving 5-star ratings to every single stinkin' product that comes along. I'm sure the vendors appreciate all the warm fuzzies, but I bet they would also appreciate some constructive criticism. Buyers would also like to know of any problems with a product, but I rarely see anything but platitudes.

Quote - but I bet they would also appreciate some constructive criticism. Buyers would also like to know of any problems with a product, but I rarely see anything but platitudes.

You would think that they would appreciate the truth. However, that is not always the case. I've given less than 5 star ratings and I've given less than warm fuzzy reviews when I felt the product deserved it. However, I can tell you that it was not always met with acceptance, and in fact in some cases the vendor was downright nasty to me in site mail.

Most of the time I just don't bother to make comments on products anymore.

I liked Poser Pros way of rating a product. You gave it a star rating, no comments and that was it. I don't even think the vendor knew who gave what rating.

Ratings should be annonymous to protect the buyer. Annonymity would more than likely result in more honest opinions by buyers.

Quote - > Quote - but I bet they would also appreciate some constructive criticism. Buyers would also like to know of any problems with a product, but I rarely see anything but platitudes.

 You would think that they would appreciate the truth. However, that is not always the case. I've given less than 5 star ratings and I've given less than warm fuzzy reviews when I felt the product deserved it. However, I can tell you that it was not always met with acceptance, and in fact in some cases the vendor was downright nasty to me in site mail.

I likedRatings should be annonymous to protect the buyer. Annonymity would more than likely result in more honest opinions by buyers.

I have had them site mail me too. A couple were extremely psycho about it. One just because I said it's was something I didn't have any use for it. It was just another something that was already to many of in a bundle. If I had sent them the same mail they sent me. I would have been banned. But not merchants. To many don't take the lack of sugar well.

I don't think the ratings would change much. To many friends/fans rate them. You even see ratings and comments before the paint has dried. Even ratings of how great something is and they have not even bought it yet.

One thing I'm not sure has been mentioned was the fact that Poser would always jump to the top of the list of folders. Ergo, if your stuff is at the top, it's going to get used more, unless you actually scroll down to find what you want. Chances are, the stuff you wind up using the most would be on top.

Or at least in older versions of Poser...;)

In my tiny amount of freebies, I named my folder Pakled!!!, just to poke fun at the whole concept...;)

Quote -  

@ grichter, re long MAT names - Sometimes it's hard to give a MAT a meaningful (ie useful) name and keep it short enough to be seen in Poser's library.  I wish the library view would allow for text to scroll onto a new line, or even two.

 

I have no problem if the name is informative. What I am talking about is name bloating that serves no purpose other then make it difficult to read in the library.

Quote - You would think that they would appreciate the truth. However, that is not always the case. I've given less than 5 star ratings and I've given less than warm fuzzy reviews when I felt the product deserved it. However, I can tell you that it was not always met with acceptance, and in fact in some cases the vendor was downright nasty to me in site mail.

I have had exactly the same experience.

I have given up contacting vendors about errors and problems in their products because most of the time they take forever to reply and either are not aware that something is a problem (because it 'works fine in Poser 5' to quote one reply I got last year) or don't know how to fix it - I've had one instance where I've sent the vendor corrected versions of their own pose files and been asked 'how did you do that?'.

Having said that, there are vendors who's stuff I buy whether I need it or not, because I know they're good and if there is any sort of problem they'll appreciate the feedback and do something constructive about it.

Quote - Having said that, there are vendors who's stuff I buy whether I need it or not, because I know they're good and if there is any sort of problem they'll appreciate the feedback and do something constructive about it.

If you don't mind, will you please share those vendors with the rest of us.

Actually this ties into a proposal I made in another thread about having a "Poser Certification" for products that meet certain criteria. The idea is that Smith Micro or Renderocity or me or you or anyone should come up with a set of guidelines that any product should meet before being offered to the public. This might include things like a standard naming convention and directory setup, specific information in the ReadMe file, and of course it should be debugged and do what it claims to do. Products that meet the criteria get to carry the "Poser Certification Logo", and those that don't can still be sold just as they are now.

In the meantime, perhaps we can start with a list of merchants that consistently deliver quality products.

You start making lists and those that don't have the fan base will get left out even if they do just as good work. It has been tried and a lot of hurt/bad feelings. Which leads to nothing good.

Ya' know, I've noticed a distinct cultural shift here at Renderosity from what I'm used to. I come from the world of programming, but I suspect that most people here come from the world of fine arts, graphic design, photography, etc. Programmers as a group have inflated and fragile egos that get bruised easily enough, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone warn against an idea because it might hurt somebody's feelings.That's just not part of the culture.

I'm not saying one approach is better or worse; I'm just making an observation.

When you have been here as long as some of us. You will see what happens. Some just say fine. They will not do any more. So all you have accomplished is less competition for the populars. From what I have seen over the years. Not all the populars are good, just popular and that lands them on the list.

Trust me, I don't really care about feelings much. I was just pointing oiut what happens when you start popularity lists. No matter the intentions. That is what they end up as.

I never get on the Popular lists! I'm too blunt.

Welcome to the club.

The unpopulars are more fun anyways.

Besides the !!!!! (which I also despise),  it would nice if vendors put their files under a folder with their name on it so I know who to credit on my renders and to find their files easily for correcting (a constant necessity because I use Daz Studio).

Example if vendor name FRED001 then I would expect the following:-

Runtime:Geometries:FRED001:productXYZ:product.obj

Runtime:Libraries:Props:FRED001:productXYZ:product.pp2

Runtime:Textures:FRED001:productXYZ:product.jpg

If the vendor are truely after more sales then having gallery credits by the artist (purchaser) is good advertising for future sales. And the best way to remind us artists (purchasers) to credit them is to have their products under a folder with their name so as to differentiate it from all the hundreds (maybe !!!!thousands!!!!) of folders in our runtime.

@LBA - that's more or less what I do with my products, except for the Libraries folders, which are named after the product itself.  All my textures and geometries sit in folders named SamTherapy, though.  

Quote - Welcome to the club.

The unpopulars are more fun anyways.

So instead of creating a list of vendors that everybody likes, maybe we should create a list of unpopulars the vendors don't like, except for our money. I want in and nominate Steve and Tasher as co-club chairman.

I have had he same experience were I made a critical review of a product and got fried in the following reviews and or in site mails.

Lately, if I am impressed, really impressd with a product I will write a review. If I have a problem, bad file, etc. I fix it myself and move on and depending on the vendor notify them of the problem with the exact back-up details privately.

Quote - Besides the !!!!! (which I also despise),  it would nice if vendors put their files under a folder with their name on it so I know who to credit on my renders and to find their files easily for correcting (a constant necessity because I use Daz Studio).

Example if vendor name FRED001 then I would expect the following:-

Runtime:Geometries:FRED001:productXYZ:product.obj

Runtime:Libraries:Props:FRED001:productXYZ:product.pp2

Runtime:Textures:FRED001:productXYZ:product.jpg

If the vendor are truely after more sales then having gallery credits by the artist (purchaser) is good advertising for future sales. And the best way to remind us artists (purchasers) to credit them is to have their products under a folder with their name so as to differentiate it from all the hundreds (maybe !!!!thousands!!!!) of folders in our runtime.

All I gotta say: been there, done this almost four years ago.

http://market.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2697096

=====================================================

There's a rant I want to make.  And I know several of these things have been said before, but I'd like them in one place.

After I received Poser 7 when it came out, I started on a complete re-install of my downloaded content.  Still haven't gotten through half the V3 stuff yet, but I've been doing it slowly to organize the folders in (to me) a rational manner) in different runtimes, checking the references in each zip and exe to make sure the pointers are correct, so on and so forth.  And after you do a few hundred of them in a short period of time, you tend to notice the things that bother you.  It was in this spirit that the following was inspired.

Rule 1: You Are Not the Most Important Person In the World.

Naming the readme file "Readme" sort of assumes that it's the only file I'm going to have with that name, doesn't it?  Now, while I like your stuff (otherwise I wouldn't have bought it and downloaded it), that doesn't mean that you're the only person in the world whose product I'm going to buy, and as such, so that your Readme isn't overwritten by their Readme, wouldn't it make sense to give your Readme file, heck, your Readme folder, a name which logically connects it to the product you want me to read about?

Rule 2: I Am Not A Mindreader

In a similar note, if you want me to read your readme files, it might behoove you to place said files in a location where I would expect to find them.  Buried in the library folders is not where I expect to find them.  Placing them outside the Runtime folder, that's logical.

Rule 3: I Am Not Using Your Computer

Your Geometries folder might rest happily in C:Documents and Settings/user/MyPoserStuff.  Mine doesn't.

Rule 4: I Am Still Not Using Your Computer

Which makes it rather difficult when the product I bought from you includes a reference to a reflection map or a texture that's not part of your product but is on your computer.  And not mine.

Rule 5: I Will Decide What's Important on My Computer, Not You

Quick Quiz:  Naming a file "! ! ! ImNumberOne.pz2" to get it to the top of the list in the library is
a) Dumb
b) Annoying
c) Unnecessary, since the folder it's in should have a unique name anyway, right?
d) Make me want to track down the merchant and beat them over the head with a keyboard
e) All of the above

Now that isn't to say that using the exclamation mark to get something to the top a file isn't justified.  I like having the character inj and rem files right at the top.  But having EVERY SINGLE FILE in that character's folder having multiple exclamation marks in front of it is stupid.

Rule 6: Remember That I Might Actually Buy Other Stuff From You

So when all your mat files or your pose files for all your products are named creatively, you know, like "01.pz2" and "02.pz2", and all your folders for different products also have the exact same name, one wonders if you only ever want any single person to only ever get a single one of your products so that they don't overwrite each other.

Rule 7: Just Because You Can Use Really Long Names Doesn't Mean You Have To

I mean, it's not that I don't get enjoyment out of looking at pose files and trying to figure out which one I want to use.  Who wouldn't want to joy of seeing two thumbnails in the library with the exact same truncated name underneath them and guessing which one is the one you want to use?

Rule 8: My Textures Folder Is Possibly More Complicated Than Yours

":skinbody.jpg" might be a perfectly valid reference in a cr2 or a mat file  for your apparently near-empty textures folder.  However, given that I'm likely to have about 3,122 files with that name, your folder in the Texture directory doesn't have a name I can easily find, your readme file is located in the Hands folder and doesn't tell me what your folder holding the textures is anyway, do not be surprised if people get somewhat annoyed.  See also Rules 3 and 4.

===============================================================

@ Keith - your list is superb.

I suggest you submit it to the PTB and ask them to make it part of the submission criteria.

Quote - > Quote - Welcome to the club.

The unpopulars are more fun anyways.

So instead of creating a list of vendors that everybody likes, maybe we should create a list of unpopulars the vendors don't like, except for our money. I want in and nominate Steve and Tasher as co-club chairman.

 

Though nominated I will not serve. I'm trying to be less unpoopular. :unsure: