I know this could open up a can of worms, but I am wondering if people who have Poser 8 or above have looked at the new Daz 4 and come to any conclusions regarding how it stacks up against Poser 8 or Poser Pro 2010?

Looking at the demo videos of Daz 4 I have to say, on first glance, it looks slicker and easier to use than Poser.

So what say you? Daz 4 better than Poser now?

I've tried the beta. I don't think the interface is easier to use than Poser's but then I'm totally Poserized ;). As for comparrisons, you can't really make them anymore. Two different animals. Which is better is purely subjective. Me? I'd rather have my dynamic cloth and hair - two things you can't get in DS. It doesn't even have dynamic hair and the cloth is proprietary. I can't use my own creations. That's a deal breaker for me.

Laurie

Quote - the cloth is proprietary. I can't use my own creations. That's a deal breaker for me.

Laurie

Ditto!!

It's probably better to wait for the Advanced and Pro versions to come out before you compare.

Coldrake

Oooo are we gonna have hair and cloth that will accept our own models?

Quote - Oooo are we gonna have hair and cloth that will accept our own models?

:m_laugh:

Interestingly, I asked that question before on that other forum, and was politely ignored.

I'm going to hasten a bet that the answer is no.

I'm not sure it's down to which program is better, more which figures do people want to use.  If you really want to use the new Genesis figure then DS is a must.  More to the point will V5 be usable in Poser at all?

John

DAZ will lose too much revenue if they don't make the new figures compatible with Poser, I can't see them doing that. I imagine they will release them some weeks after the DS ones though.

M5/V5/K5  etc,  will just be 'shapes' for Genesis. the Genesis figure WILL NOT WORK IN POSER.

DAZ are NOT going to make Genesis compatible with Poser. SM will have to adopt the Figures technology in the next version ( if they want to,of course)

do not bank on EVER seeing a Dynamic Cloth creation plug-in ( not Optitex based, anyway)

Well, DAZ has just lost a follower... I will not upgrade to 4... Sorry but I don't believe in so many plugs in to do one bloody thing!. Poser will have do its thing between it and Bryce.  Oh well...

Hmmm...

Poser UI - kinda clunky but usable

Blender 2.5x UI - different, still

ZBrush UI - let's make this harder than it needs to be

HoudiniMaster UI - a skull f***

DS4 UI - made for Timmy, by Timmy (SouthPark ref.)

DS4 is yet another poorly implemented and inadequately documented DAZ release.

Usability of DS4 is less than optimal, changing things "just for the sake of change" is not good design planning.

Example, access for the zero, drop to floor, memorize, etc has been moved from the right side of the screen to the left and hidden behind a drop down on the left of the tab rather than on the right as in previous versions.

Yet another failure, as it stands right now, if you want a UI in DS4 that isn't directed toward a 4 year old with ADHD and a lack of fine motor skills you'll have to pay for it.

Several of the older members have mentioned the difficulty seeing the text on the tabs due to the color scheme and the prevailing responses from the powers that deign to reply run along the lines of, "Sorry 'bout your luck foggie, we're really not interested in your geldt. "

The new PR Liaison/Product Manager  tends to blame any short comings as user error and or user hardware related, regardless of origin. Generally in a quite condesending way.

After kicking the tires on this release I have to say that if DS4 were my intro to 3d I'd look for something else or go back to traditional media.

I don't see myself using DS4 or creating any Gen5 content.

Quote - M5/V5/K5  etc,  will just be 'shapes' for Genesis. the Genesis figure WILL NOT WORK IN POSER.

DAZ are NOT going to make Genesis compatible with Poser. SM will have to adopt the Figures technology in the next version ( if they want to,of course)

do not bank on EVER seeing a Dynamic Cloth creation plug-in ( not Optitex based, anyway)

It had not occured to me that DAZ would not release a stand alone V5 figure.  I mean Genesis is a good mesh, the different shapes are great and the joints look pretty good.  But all that information in one figure wouldn't make it very usable if you wanted multiple figures in a scene.  I realise that a lot of people only have one or two figures in a scene, but probably as many do.

I think Genesis on it's own would limit the market too much.  Besides the usage numbers for the figures are almost certainly weighted heavily towards Victoria and the other female figures, how many people are going to rush to Genesis because it can be all sorts of other figures?

Don't get me wrong I personally think Genesis is a great figure, I have played with it a bit and I like the way you can mix and match shapes to get a wide variety of looks.  And the cloth fitting plugin really is a great idea.  Unlike previous figure releases where you lost the ability to use all your old outfits, this plugin will do a pretty good job of fitting them to Genesis.

I still believe that the market share is going to depend on how many people want to use the Genesis figure, or a new Vicky if they release one.  If you need DS4 to use it, then ultimately people will migrate to DS4, if not then things will stay more or less as they are.

John

I have to agree, I just don't understand the changes to the UI. They already had a perfectly decent and almost infinitely customisable UI. It had a major drawback in that it could only display a limited number of morph channels, but I'm sure they could have fixed that without turning it into something by Fisher Price. You can immediately make it a lot less annoying by in changing the style to Highway, (makes the text and buttons smaller) and the Workspace Layout to Self Serve or City Limits. (Don't know why they chose such twee names).

**"**M5/V5/K5  etc,  will just be 'shapes' for Genesis. the Genesis figure WILL NOT WORK IN POSER.

DAZ are NOT going to make Genesis compatible with Poser. SM will have to adopt the Figures technology in the next version ( if they want to,of course)"

Correct !!!!

Cheers

**Cheers
**

Will Pozer files work in Daz4?

Quote - If you need DS4 to use it, then ultimately people will migrate to DS4, if not then things will stay more or less as they are. John

One of the few things I disagree with you on John..lolol. I don't think people will switch to DS en masse just to use Genesis. I really don't. I know I won't ;). I like my Poser. I plan to stay with it, no matter if there is a Vicky 5 I can use in it or not...lol. I don't think I'm alone ;).

Laurie

I go with you Laurie :-))))

Quote - Will Pozer files work in Daz4?

What kind of Poser files? Some will, like props and such (I think). Not sure about figures. I can't answer that one. Maybe someone else knows :).

Laurie

I render in Vue and that works well with Poser but not so well with DS, so I'll be sticking with Poser also. For what I do I don't need any more figures, I don't use all the ones I have now..

Quote - **"**M5/V5/K5  etc,  will just be 'shapes' for Genesis. the Genesis figure WILL NOT WORK IN POSER.

DAZ are NOT going to make Genesis compatible with Poser. SM will have to adopt the Figures technology in the next version ( if they want to,of course)"

 

Correct !!!!

 

Cheers

 

 

**Cheers
**

Then this should be interesting. It may not kill Daz but it will impact their bottom line. Daz lives and dies on human fiqure creations yeah they sell other stuff but figures, clothing and accessories for these figures have always been their flagship products. If one feels Daz can live on sales of props, creatures and funky software to make up the falling sales of 5 series figures then so be it but it ain't gonna happen. But realistically speaking time will tell it's hard to say what Daz is truly going to do in the end. This isn't a bunch of individuals selling velvet pictures of Elvis out of their van on the side of the road. ;)

For me I've stated the reasons why I don't use D/S and most likely never will. Mostly it's all the extra plugins you have to purchase to get it to come close to what Poser does without any plugins and it's lack of playing well with Vue infinite and Xstream.

figures rigged with P7 type tools/conventions will work in DS4 ( as in DS3 etc)

figures rigged like Miki3 do not work in DS ( but can have the rigging tweaked to do so)

anything that uses PMD will work up to DS3 ( with a script from the Freepozitory)

.pp2, ,cr2, ,hr2  etc work fine in all versions of DS.

Poser procedurals/shaders do not work in DS, ordinary materials/textures do ( need adjustment in Surfaces usually)

lights and cameras do work in DS, but not in a predictable way ( and any lights with images attached will not show the image, native DS default lights have no channel to plug an image file into)

dzShader lights CAN have a channel for an image, and of course the 'uberlights' do have a channel to plug  images into.

magnets do work in DS ( they get converted to D-Form, but may not do exactly the same as in Poser)

 nearly forgot, MT5 and MC6 files do not work in DS ( but can sometimes be converted to .pz2, then they work, but without any of the procedural/shaders, just the basic texture, if applicable)

hope this helps

Quote - > Quote - If you need DS4 to use it, then ultimately people will migrate to DS4, if not then things will stay more or less as they are. John

One of the few things I disagree with you on John..lolol. I don't think people will switch to DS en masse just to use Genesis. I really don't. I know I won't ;). I like my Poser. I plan to stay with it, no matter if there is a Vicky 5 I can use in it or not...lol. I don't think I'm alone ;).

Laurie

I don't think for a moment that people will go en masse.  There will always be a group of people who will use Poser and a group who use DS and those who use both.

I think that going over to the DS side will depend on a number of factors for people.

Cost, Figures and Ease of use.

For most people it will be a combination of those factors.  I think the big shift will come from vendors.  We may see a diversification as vendors move towards the larger market, at the moment it is Poser but it won't take much for DS to catch up and take over.  At the moment it is not so much of a point, as V4 content can be made for both without too much trouble.  If however the large market share goes to Genesis then it may become financially unviable to produce for Poser.

Not just as in the user community there will e people who use Poser and always will, there will be Vendors who stick wilth Poser.  But will the quality vendors stay, the top guys who do this for a living, when there may be a more commercially viable market elsewhere.  Will they do it for both platforms?

I can tell you from experience that putting a product together can take some considerable time, making an outfit for one figure on two platforms is a serious undertaking.  Making an outfit for 2 figures on 2 different platforms is going to extend product dev time enough to make anyone think hard about which platform to support.

On the other hand :) maybe it is going to shake things up enough to give the market the kick up the backside that it has needed for a while.  A diversification that will refresh support for both platforms.

Only time will tell :)

John.

With all the talented people in the community I can't see there not being a nice Poser figure to rival Victoria and her relatives ;). Hopefully some will step up to the plate if newer versions of Poser do not support Daz Gen 5 figures. If it does, there won't be a thing to worry about....lol. I'm hoping for the latter of course, but the other option might be nice too :). After all, I use Mankahoo's Angela most of the time now - a figure which is neither Daz nor from SM :).

Laurie

Here I am weighing in late on my opinion... I am with Laurie on this... If Daz wants to cut its knee off, I ain't gonna to help... I'll still purchase items like clothes and the like but specifically for the version 3 and 4 (or much earlier version) of its flagship characters... And of course the props (some props free and otherwise) that will work in Poser and are made for Poser but will work in Studio 3 (various incarnation of it). And of course, then there's Bryce... That is one of the bright spot in all of DAZdom imho. Until someone comes along and show me another software that does what Bryce does easily and more brillantly and doesn't cost more than Bryce(and also has a loyal follwoing and a world helpful community)...

Anyway, that's MHO... :laugh:

Hm. One more for the stick-to-Poser-group.

I think Daz' figures are not the only ones with a bubblehead problem if they think they can make me switch to DS for their V5. I like Poser, I learned and learn it, and I want to use other stores add-ons in my application, not just from the creator.

But - I can't imagine that. They have vendors that use Poser, and Poser only, and I'm pretty sure DAZ didn't get where they are because they had a bad business sense. Their figures are their power, yes, but the compatibility is what makes them valuable.

And as SM knows that their figures can't really compare, I guess it is just a question of the right amount of money to change owners so both DS users and Poser users and DAz and SM can all be happy... :laugh:

for me it's a simple thing, which I see no one else has really touched on.

this new tech, right now is only in 1 application. it's good tech and needed. but.. never be an early adopter if a lot of money's involved. 

a lesson learnt by anyone thats paid for HD DVD, Betamax, Minidisk...etc and ended up with useless toys after awhile.

if the tech takes off - and that means in more than 1 application and ppl actually use it - then I'm in.

but I don't have the money to gamble and I've been burnt before by promises made about new technology that ended up going nowhere to just leap in.

I have not worked in DZS yet but I can tell you Im very impressed with the lighting I see in others work. Im feeling its much better then Posers; or maybe its done In post work I really dont know.

I cant wait to install my copy and start useing; Im just waiting until I upgrad my system to 64bit and get a bigger hard drive.

Quote - I have not worked in DZS yet but I can tell you Im very impressed with the lighting I see in others work. Im feeling its much better then Posers; or maybe its done In post work I really dont know.

What you've seen is a result of the Reality plugin for DAZ.  It serves as a bridge between DAZ and Luxrender to produce real-world lighting effects and physically-based texture shading.

This was the first render I did after installing it two months ago, when Reality 1.2 was released.  Suffice it to say, it turned DAZ back into my primary app.

Unfortunately, after downloading a copy of DS4 and trying it out first-hand, I am not impressed with the changes they've made to the UI.  In fact, the experience I've had watching the development cycle of DS4 has left me with a very strong desire to return to Poser again.  I just wish I could wrap my head around Pose2Lux.

That's very nice. I like Luxrender's lights as well. Even if I do get there a little differently (I use Pose2Lux) ;). The downside is you need to have patience for those marathon Luxrender renders...lolol.

Laurie

Quote - That's very nice. I like Luxrender's lights as well. Even if I do get there a little differently (I use Pose2Lux) ;). The downside is you need to have patience for those marathon Luxrender renders...lolol.

Thanks.

Yeah, Lux is an awesome test of patience.  The longest render time I've read so far was 600 hours.  I would hate to find even the tiniest flaw after that much time.  O.O

Here's the thing. DAZ isn't shooting itself in the foot.  Let's say that Poser decides NOT to adopt the Genesis technology. DAZ will continue to sell Genesis to it's own Studio users plus Carrara and Bryce users. Genesis just simply not be on a par with V4, which by the way will still work in DS4 and Poser.

I'm not going to lose any sleep one way or the other because I'll probably continue to use Poser regardless.

As for vendors I've said it before, they'll go where the money is, which means that they'll probably stay with V4 until they see evidence of a surge in Genesis' popularity.

How well the whole Gensis concept will depend upon how well the vendors support it and how much revenue DAZ takes in.

How many vendors and riggers really want to spend time learning an entirely new rigging system?  I and the people I work for sure as heck don't. 

I played with the Gensis concept months ago when DAZ offered their Project X alpha for testing.  The theory is nice but impracticle.  Genesis is a lower poly mesh that depends on subD.  Which means it's going to be more difficult than anyone realizes to morph a believalble male figure out of that mesh. 

DAZ is taking a calculated risk here.  It may pay off and it may fail.  They took one when they decided to give all their base models away for free.  Based on the fact their "free forever" lasted only about a year, means it didn't pay off.

The orginal concept of DS base app being free was based on the "so long as content sales" support it premise.  The standard version of DS that is currently being offered for free is only free for a short time and then DAZ begins to charge for it.

If DAZ wasn't offering DS4 Standard for free right now, how many users who paid $1.88 for DS Advanced about eight months ago would be interested in shelling out another $49 right now.  If you want to use any V4 cothing with the Genesis figure, you have to shell out another $49 if you are a PC member and $69 if you aren't for the AutoFit plugin. 

As for the Genesis figure itself, it's one figure.  Just like SMS Miki3.  Vendors are going to look at their market and decide if they want to stick to a proven figure with a proven market or go with a new figure that is limited to only one portion of the Poser/DS market.  And I'm not just pointing at DAZ.  SMS has done the same thing.  Had they kept Miki3 compatible with legacy versions of Poser and DS, they might have made more money.  By closing their own market, they strangled themselves.  But then I expect it from SMS.  They still have a lot to learn about Poser.  DAZ, however, has been in content creation business for a long time.  This is not a move I would have expected out of them.

Quote - I've tried the beta. I don't think the interface is easier to use than Poser's but then I'm totally Poserized ;). As for comparrisons, you can't really make them anymore. Two different animals. Which is better is purely subjective. Me? I'd rather have my dynamic cloth and hair - two things you can't get in DS. It doesn't even have dynamic hair and the cloth is proprietary. I can't use my own creations. That's a deal breaker for me.

Laurie

The same thing for me. I put so much work and time into making my own dynamic cloth that in its current state DS is nearly useless for me with this restriction, no matter what kind of figure and bending it has.

I fear, walking away from Poser compatibility was a HUGE strategic mistake.
HUGE !!!

I think the Lower Poly was by far their only good idea.
17K is about ideal if the poly's are in the right place.
=> NOT in the ear :-)

Quote - I fear, walking away from Poser compatibility was a HUGE strategic mistake.
HUGE !!!

I think the Lower Poly was by far their only good idea.
17K is about ideal if the poly's are in the right place.
=> NOT in the ear :-)

I do have to chuckle a bit, though! After months of them saying that they did not want to create a schism in the  Poser community, they release a figure designed to do just that!:b_grin:

Well, I'm just going to add my 2 cents.

I was a very loyal DS user; of DS2 and DS3A.  Bought all the plugins, spent all the money, even did my commercial development in DS.

I took one look at the DS4 BETA and upgraded Poser 7 to Poser 8 with plans to move up to Poser2010. 

I will never again touch that Fischer Price piece of software.  It's garbage; junk written for tweens.  See Gizmoz.com and you'll understand EXACTLY who DAZ thinks are their customers now.  Then, you'll understand the UI.

I'll use DS3A for testing until it dies, but I'll never install DS4 on one of my computers - not even for my grandkids to play the Daz version of The Disney Fairies.

I am using Poser for a long time.I have tried DazStudio 4 during this week-end and i like it

I have imported many Poser files ,miki3 included,without problem.I have also used poses, hair,prop and clothes from different runtimes without problem

I have used genesis figure and find it is limited with this free version

Something occurred to me and I'll admit that I'm not really up on DS and all it's plugins and products, but...

As it stands now, as far as products go, there is some content at Daz and other brokerages that require multiple other products just to be able to use them. Will there theoretically be products now that will require not only other products to be able to use it, but also other plugins as well? With the multple versions I'm not sure how that would work. It's the reason I hate the plugin system for this type of software ;). This could be a mess that I just don't want to have to keep after personally. With Poser, I only need Poser...hehe. If something works in Poser 8, it also works in 2010 and vice versa.

I could be way off base, but the potential exists, doesn't it?

Laurie

Quote - DAZ will lose too much revenue if they don't make the new figures compatible with Poser, I can't see them doing that. I imagine they will release them some weeks after the DS ones though.

Too bad that dog won't hunt anymore. The new figures are not going to be made Poser compatible. The ball is in SM's court to make Poser compatible to the new figures. Frankly I am glad they're finally moving away from Poser towards their own agenda. It's about time.

Oh, one more thing that occurred to me ;)...

Even IF SM manages to make the new Gen 5's work in Poser 9+, you'd STILL need to buy DS4 Pro or assorted DS plugins to make anything for them. Please, someone who knows tell me I'm wrong about that...lol.

If that's the case (and I hope I'm wrong) then Daz has cut the content market off at the knees - including their little corner of it.

Laurie

Quote - > Quote - DAZ will lose too much revenue if they don't make the new figures compatible with Poser, I can't see them doing that. I imagine they will release them some weeks after the DS ones though.

 

Too bad that dog won't hunt anymore. The new figures are not going to be made Poser compatible. The ball is in SM's court to make Poser compatible to the new figures. Frankly I am glad they're finally moving away from Poser towards their own agenda. It's about time.

And why is that?

It is probably a little early to be trying to answer this question, if only
because I think this release has been a bit premature. They clearly aren't
quite there yet on the development front - and some of the objections people
have to it are slated to be dealt with later (such as the UI which we are told
will have a developer kit released). The central reason for release at all is
the new Genesis figure which is still rather basic and looks to remain so until
the release of the V5 etc products. Given that this standard edition is set to
remain free for some months, it is not immediately clear why they have released
this early.

One explanation that comes to mind is that they want to have DS4 sitting on as many
computers as possible so as to maximise the number of potential customers for
V5 - and if they want to charge for that product independently of Studio, then
an interval between releases would make some sense.

Some concern has been raised about the cost of Studio but if I remember correctly,
DAZ are obligated to have a reasonably functional version available for free in
order to avoid having to pay rather a lot of money to licence the render
engine, a cost that would have to be reflected in the cost of Studio. (If the
new generation of figures is soon to be released, then that would also go some
way to explaining their making the 4th generation bases pay for items rather
than free - which did seem a little like shutting the barn door after they had
all bolted. If there is a free alternative, then new customers will most likely
go for that and many may stick with it for some time but if there is a choice
between which base product to pay for, then they are most likely to buy the
newest one)

It is particularly hard to judge the impact of Studio and Genesis until we know
what is happening in Poser 9 - and for that we shall have to wait for its
release. If there is a significant gap between the release of V5 and Poser 9,
then the principle and first impact will be on the early sales of V5 and of
support for it. Poser users who might be swayed from Poser to Studio for the
new figure are still likely to play 'wait and see' until P9 shows up, which
means that, if all Studio users take up the new figure, its potential customer
base could still be as little as half of that for V4, so that initially most
third party support will remain with the older figures and the larger customer
base.

If Poser 9 can support Genesis (and despite what they say, given how it is
embedded within the DS4 installation, DAZ will have to cover some of the ground
to meet SM with a Studio independent installation) then, assuming DAZ have also
released the various planned versions of Studio, we can try to meaningfully
compare them. But not until then.

On the other hand, if Poser 9 cannot support Genesis, then there might be some
migration to Studio but comparisons of the two might be less meaningful. Of
course, if SM manage to pull a rabbit from their hat, providing base figures
that can compare to the DAZ range, then we will have a whole new ball game.

It's as I've been saying all along. This is a power play by DAZ to dominate the Poser community. I don't really blame them. I suppose I would do the same if I were in their shoes. 

Still, Smith Micro has to  read this very carefully. Honestly, I don't think they'll loose very many if any users to Studio. Truth is, they'll probably gain as many as they lose. I just don't see people leaving Poser just to use a figure. You didn't have that happen with Miki3, or Ryan and Alyson.

I also find it very telling that DAZ made no attempt to include Poser's new rigging into Studio 4. Of course that seems to be the way DAZ plays ball doesn't it? One-sided.

You keep on assuming that SM gave DAZ the information before doing the new setup.

Also, I really don't see anyone leaving a program to use Ryan and Alyson, sorry. Other figures with new technology? Possibly.

Quote - Also, I really don't see anyone leaving a program to use Ryan and Alyson, sorry. Other figures with new technology? Possibly.

In all fairness, I can't see anyone ditching DS for Ryan and Alyson or any of the Poser figures either ;). Opinions may differ....lol. I only ditch Vicky for other non-SM figures...lol.

Laurie

Quote - I know this could open up a can of worms, but I am wondering if people who have Poser 8 or above have looked at the new Daz 4 and come to any conclusions regarding how it stacks up against Poser 8 or Poser Pro 2010? Looking at the demo videos of Daz 4 I have to say, on first glance, it looks slicker and easier to use than Poser.

So what say you? Daz 4 better than Poser now?

Both programs have different ways of doing the same thing.  It comes down to what models do you need to buy and then use the app that works best with them.

It's funny that Someone in the Poser forum brings out the toppic and the only ones that answer are hardcore Poser users. Of course they gonna say Poser is the best.

Quote - It's funny that Someone in the Poser forum brings out the toppic and the only ones that answer are hardcore Poser users. Of course they gonna say Poser is the best.

who were you expecting to answer? the 32nd Highland Regiment? the Mormon  Tabernacle Choir? 

Quote - > Quote - It's funny that Someone in the Poser forum brings out the toppic and the only ones that answer are hardcore Poser users. Of course they gonna say Poser is the best.

 

who were you expecting to answer? the 32nd Highland Regiment? the Mormon  Tabernacle Choir? 

cough...Poser forum. I think a lot of people that frequent the place are Poser users. I know I don't tend to go and hang out over in the Daz Studio forum...

Here's a suggestion: go over to the Daz Studio forum and ask the same question. I bet I can guess the trend over there ;).

Laurie

Quote - I will never again touch that Fischer Price piece of software.  It's garbage; junk written for tweens.  See Gizmoz.com and you'll understand EXACTLY who DAZ thinks are their customers now.  Then, you'll understand the UI.

:lol:  :lol: