Quote -
The reason I changed it to 4 material zones is because all of the Winter Queen Wing material zones are different and hborre suggested that I needed a different material zone for each of the WQ Wing node setups that were different.

Well, yes as in different nodes, not different maps. Often the only reason we have multiple materials on something is because the detail desired cannot be got on just one map. When the shader setup is the same except the maps are different or missing in some, you do not need multiple templates. VSS deals with multiple maps automatically. 

Quote - Which is all 4 material zones because the image maps vary and so does the poser surface node values.

Again - if the image maps vary, that has no bearing on the matter. If the nodes vary, then it does. 

Do they really vary? They have different numbers in them? You have to understand that the point of VSS is to save you time by combining multiple materials in one template shader. The first impediment to doing so is usually varying image maps, and VSS takes care of that. You don't put the image maps into the template. 

If, on the other hand, the numbers in the node parameters are truly different, then you will need to have multiple shaders.

Quote - A VSS shader that will work on the Poser 6 Winter Queen Wings. The same way that the default VSS shader works on V4.

Ah - but the VSS shader works and creates value by

1. Applying a new shader that you don't have. Something better than you already have. Something you don't get from almost all the vendors out there - a Bagginsbill shader.

2. Doing it across many material zones automatically.

3. Applying a great shader onto another set of image maps that normally load with a not-so-great shader.

In the case of these wings, you don't have anything to benefit from. You're not using a Bagginsbill shader - you plan to use the shader that is already there. And you're not going to save time by applying shader changes from one place to many - each of your templates goes only to one place. And I'm assuming you don't have other 3rd party image maps for the wings that you want to swap out the shaders but still use those maps.

Using VSS will be more work, not less work, then simply editing the target materials directly.

I think you should use 1 template for all three feather materials. I suspect the variations are not real. They are all made of feathers, right?

Quote - In the case of these wings, you don't have anything to benefit from. You're not using a Bagginsbill shader - you plan to use the shader that is already there. And you're not going to save time by applying shader changes from one place to many - each of your templates goes only to one place. And I'm assuming you don't have other 3rd party image maps for the wings that you want to swap out the shaders but still use those maps.

Using VSS will be more work, not less work, then simply editing the target materials directly.

I actually understood what you said :)

Assuming when you say I don't have anything to benefit by using VSS on the wings that you mean whether I use 4 material zones or just 1, I'm going to stop here.

I thought by editing the VSS shader to work on the wings and the millennium cat, I could brighten them up like VSS does to V4's skin. But it seems there is much more to the process than creating the right material zone and nodes: You actually have to create an entirely different shader/node set up for the wings than what is already there.  I'm not up to doing that. Not because I don't want to, but because I don't understand the material room well enough to go beyond tweaking dials, copying existing setups, and adding an image map.

Thanks for all of your help on this BB :)

I agree with BB's explanation, and I did mention generating different VSS zones if nodes vary from zone to zone in the original model.  But you will not see any changes if you are just copying the same node arrangement from original to VSS unless you are applying to another wing model.  However, let's say you are adding something extra to your original model shaders, a better original node arrangement or from another model which enhances your feathers substantially, or realistically, then you would load that into VSS and synchronize it to your existing model.  Now, you have completely overhauled your model with a new set of shaders which should be better than the old set.

Help for a VSS newbie please?

I just downloaded it. There seems to be a problem, that the shader won't synchronize with some of my figures.

Also, if I want to use stuff like wet skin shaders, should I load them before or after synchronizing?

Since you give no particulars, I'd say read the VSS for dummies book. Everything controlling which materials are copied onto which figure is in the control prop Apply Rules and Shader Rules.

Quote - Also, if I want to use stuff like wet skin shaders, should I load them before or after synchronizing?

Whoa - back up. The question is nonsense, given what VSS is.

VSS is two things - a script which can be used for anything at all, and a set of shader templates for human parts. 

VSS, the script, replaces the shaders on your figure with whatever shaders you have in its templates. It does not magically improve other people's shaders. It throws them away and shoves the shader you load into the control prop onto the figure, while keeping the target figure's texture maps. This is a convenience and does not do anything magical - it could be done by hand.

The shader templates I published include 4 generations of different realism skin shaders, shaders for eye parts, and a couple non-realism shaders including a Vargas-style shader and a Toon shader. I also did a hair shader but I wasn't really serious about it.

So - when you use VSS, it is a short-cut, a convenience, for applying shaders and shader settings to the many material zones of a figure or prop, or multiple (perhaps dozens) of props and figures, from a single template shader. Thus, when you want to change a parameter, you can enjoy the convenience of doing it only once instead of 11 times. But you still have to decide which shader to use, or design your own, and either way you make parameter changes as you see fit. VSS won't help you design a shader AT ALL.

I have provided some shaders, and many people think they are better than any others, so you might want to use my shaders with VSS, but you do not have to. However, if you want to use some other shaders, you will have to load them into the VSS control prop, and adjust them to become reusable templates, so that they will pick up whatever texture maps are already on the target figure.

If you have wet skin shaders on the target (or any shader of any kind) they are going to be destroyed by synchronizing - removed completely - and replaced with what you have loaded in the VSS control prop.

To answer your question, if you load the wet skin shader and then synchronize, it will be deleted and replaced with the shader loaded in VSS.

If you synchronize, and then load the wet skin shader, you'll have the wet skin shader and the synchronization will be undone.

Thanks for the answer about wet skins

About the other stuff, it goes like this: I have various V4 figures (with various mats) saved on my runtime. I follow all the steps up until the synchronization, which works with some of those figures but not with others. I haven't found any way to fix this (although I suspect it has something to do with the order in which each V4's mats are presented in the material room).

Still don't know what to say.

"works with some but not with others"

Possible interpretations for those identified as "works... not":

• VSS doesn't even touch them - doesn't mention them at all - doesn't see them as target figures.

• VSS sees them but doesn't apply shaders to any of the target materials.

• VSS sees them but only applies shaders to some of the target materials.

• VSS sees them, applies shaders to all of the target materials, but the materials aren't actually changed.

• VSS sees them, applies shaders to all materials, materials are changed, but they don't have the right textures.

• VSS sees them , applies shaders, materials are changed, textures are right, but the result doesn't look good or as expected.

Which?

We have seen this befor and I think it was AO on those areas. Baggins would know better though.

Don

It's not AO. It's burned-in specular in the color map.

The most popular "realistic" skin textures are basically photographs of human skin. I put quotes around "realistic" because I'm being sarcastic. These are the least realistic, except when you literally just render the photo and light the scene ambiguously or light it exactly the same as appeared at the time the photo was taken.

I've been talking about it for years and this community ignores it, except for a handful of users.

VSS is a realism shader in the style of professional work. It does not function as a regurgitator of photographs. It produces a reasonable calculation of the skin's natural and dynamic response to light, particularly for when the lighting is changed dramatically.

In a professional shader, the color map does not contain specular highlights - shiny white spots. The specular highlights are created by the real shader, based on the real geometry and the real position of the light sources in the scene.

Your skin texture there has specular highlights on lips and nipples that have been recorded as part of the diffuse color map. When those colors are then used correctly as diffuse color, they reveal themselves as being artifacts. They don't belong there, and they look like a disease. They do not end up looking like shiny areas that happen to point towards the light, given where the camera is at the moment. Therefore, you notice and object.

The only solution is to use maps that do not have incorrect color data. In this case, you need a map that is the color of nipple, not the color of nipple with a bright light bouncing from it.

I just spoke about this in the Poser 9/PPro2012 discussion at RDNA as well. With the new subsurface scattering capability, the problem with burned-in specular is even more dramatic.

thanx 4 the reply....

Baggs, on this topic... You told me somewhere else my textures have some bad highlights in them and you had a tool for fixing that into Poser (appearantly, to render my own texture map with your shader). I tried finding it here, but I couldn't - I probably just don't know which keywords to look for. Care to give me some pointers when you're available?

I found it - here you go. I am linking you into the key posting where I performed this trick the first time. You will want to read forward from there, glance over the solution, then you'll want to back up a page or two and pick up the flow from the whole conversation. It was an excellent thread and it drove a lot of what I know today, and did not know then.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=3078303&ebot_calc_page#message_3078303

This image, from that thread, shows the original texture with burned in specular on the left, and the right side has my treatment to remove it.

Awesome! Thank you very much!

When the Pro version of VSS is coming out????

Who knows. I keep hoping to do even one commercial Poser thing, but other stuff absorbs my time.

Hey bagginsbill.  I've been watching your progress with Poser's new SSS over at RDNA and I must say that I'm pretty excited about PP2012 if only for that reason.  Will you give us an updated version of VSS with correct SSS settings?  I'm hoping the SSS shader will be simple but I'm sure there are million ways to use it the wrong way.

ah make that an updated s4 1aGC version, cause that version really kicks butt on close ups.

Yes I'll publish a scatter version.

Quote - Yes I'll publish a scatter version.

Super.  This answer alone will entice me to buy PP2012.  Thank you BB.

Me too!

Attached Link: my image

Been using your vss a bit and this image in the link has pr3 object and the latest shaders (well latest I have anyway, Havn't had a lot of free time to get on.)  Number 4 I think.

This is the first time I have used the env sphere though with an image I got from a site listed on the page with envsphere. Once I put the sphere into play and removed all bar and infinite light set to about 50%. I lost a bit from the image. Mainly on the eyes. In the reflection. Just wondering if anyone point out the obvious that I cant quite see at the moment.

Thanks

Okay, let's begin with which Poser version are you using?  Important because it may make a big difference where gamma correction is concerned.

BTW, you should warn about nudity in that posted link as a courtesy.

Sorry about not giving the warning. My bad.

Anyway the image was done pp2010. I know the eyes look crosseyed in it a bit, that is not a concern at present. What I was looking at was when I first loaded the sphere and image and rendered I had 3 lights in the scene an ibl and 2 infintie. The eyes then reflected very well. But the rest of the image was lit up like a christmas tree. with highlights in all the wrong places. Like in the arm pits. Cutting the lights back to one and just using the hdri image. I got the result you saw much better on the skin but lost everything on the eyes. I tried ajusting the reflectivity and even plugged a gloss node I think into it. Am away working and stuck on my lappy at the moment so cant be certain as I dont have access to it and plusd Iplayed around with a lot of things to try and make it work. When I get back home will post the earlier renders and node setups etc. Then those like your self with way more knowlege than me in that area may pick my mistakes up. I generally tend to just get into the material room and play around with everything plugging stuff into what ever to see what it does. With out understanding to much about what it is supposed to do. Once in a blue moon it actually works. lol.

When you do get back, double-check if your render setting for Gc is set to 2.2 and which VSS version you are using.  PR3 had pretty much become the standard, but there is a VSSPR4 which automatically compensates if render Gc is active.  These nodes should also apply to the eye textures.  Also, have you considered using IDL instead of IBL.  Rendering will take longer because of transmaps and reflective surfaces, but the results are worth it.

hborrre, where do you download VSSPR4? I'm familar with PV3 but not 4.

Quote - Hey guys sorry to divert off a bit. And probably in the wrong thread most likely.

Been using your vss a bit and this image in the link has pr3 object and the latest shaders (well latest I have anyway, Havn't had a lot of free time to get on.)  Number 4 I think.

This is the first time I have used the env sphere though with an image I got from a site listed on the page with envsphere. Once I put the sphere into play and removed all bar and infinite light set to about 50%. I lost a bit from the image. Mainly on the eyes. In the reflection. Just wondering if anyone point out the obvious that I cant quite see at the moment.

Thanks

 

Images that are high in dynamic range can be packaged in HDR format, but so can crappy LDR images. The truth is that most are not truly HDR. Many HDR enthusiasts fail to understand the actual dynamic range required to accurately record and replay environment lighting in an HDR image.

Consider this. Look directly at the sun and what happens to your eyes? That's right, you permanently burn them. This is because the direct viewing of the sun requires being able to handle as much as 1000 times more light than you get from looking at objects.

So - when somebody makes an HDR image by assembling a series of LDR images they do so by shooting them at different exposures. What is the maximum you hear people using? Sometimes you hear a knowledgable individual use +/- 5 stops. That's a range of doubling 10 times, or a ratio of 1024 to 1. That is a proper outdoor HDR image. Anything less and you will either lose the heat of the sun, or you lose shadow details.

What do most people do, particularly those who are making HDR images for fun and giving them away? They shoot for the shadow details and then maybe they go 4 stops above that for sun/sky detail (or +/- 2 stops around a middle value). That's only 16 to 1. Not even close to real, when you try to use that for computer graphics lighting data.

Further, the eye shader you're using may or may not have reflection in it. I can't remember what I've released in VSS. If it doesn't have relfection, then it isn't set up to show the environment as highlights, even if they are properly recorded.

My recollection is I did not set up eye reflections - at the time I had no idea how popular my environment sphere would become, nor did I expect people would actually trouble themselves to go get good HDR images. Maybe the one you are using is actually good, but the eye shader isn't set up to take advantage.

First we'd want to see how good the HDR is before we bother.

Render a sphere with no diffuse or specular on it - just a Reflect node with the reflection value set to something low, like 10%. If there is nothing reflected in that sphere that looks white hot, then you have a crap HDR. (Assuming it is outdoor) The sun, even at 10% of its intensity, should be bright white in a reflection.

Let's consider water. It has an IOR of 1.3333. When pointing almost directly at an observer, and also almost directly at the sun, about 2% of the sun's light is reflected to the observer. And yet, a camera will show that spot as completely burned out - greater than the maximum it can show. Thus, in a photo, reflections of the sun, even when only at 2% of original intensity, are blown. This shows us that the sun is at least 50 times brighter (1 over .02) than the other objects being photographed.

Again I don't remember where I picked this up but it's name is Zion_Sunsetpeek_Ref.hdr.

Remember! This is a 10% reflection. What color is the reflection of the sun here? Why it is RGB 255, 255, 255!!!! Outstanding! We finally have a blown highlight, just like real life.

@ TunderStone:  The link appears earlier in this thread, but here is the actual link:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2822732&page=2

@hborre, thanks! How could I have missed that!!??!! Thanks again!

Thanks hborre.

The gc was turned off in the render settings and was set as you said in vss.

I set the idl in the render serttings at about 4 still getting to grips with it. There were no ibl in that image just my main light set as infinite. Will be home tomorrow night so can screen snap the serttings I used and what the previous render looked like before the sphere was put into play.

Thanks BB a bit there for me to take in an try etc. Will have to check out the image I got as you stated above. All I remember from it was that it was close to 19Mb. And claimed to be a true hdr image. But am hoping to learn morer about them so I can spot the diffs etc and use them to best effect.

can't find the VSS skin4 thread, but I thought it would be ok to ask this here:

BB, your v4 skin shader has gamma correction detection in it. For my next character, I wanna make sure it'll look the best she can in any version of Poser as long as it's newer than P6 and not the Debut one... so. I'll use the v4 skin shader yes, for people who don't have P9/PP2012... but for those who do, I want to make a scatter skin. And then I wouldn't need your attempt at faking scatter that is in the V4 skin shader. Also, I need GC detection for eyes and teeth and all...

What are the nodes in it that detect GC? What should I keep and what should I get rid of?

Ugh - this would be complicated. I don't know which nodes are which. I didn't put them there.

If you want to make complicated skin, you want to use matmatic, like I do.

My VSS skin shader script has many options and layers in it. I'm sloooowly assembling all these components into what will eventually be VSS Pro. I just opened it up - haven't looked in a while, and it is currently a 600 lines Python script. Much of it I do not immediately understand anymore.

Here's the part that does the fake SSS. I know how to add it and remove it easily, but what nodes does it generate in that shader? Nobody knows - not even me.

class SSS2(MaterialLayer):
        SSSColor = Color(1, .2, 0)
        def build(self, s):
                e = s.Energy
                e2 = getattr(s, 'EnergySub', None)
                if e2:
                        e = .5 * e + .5 * e2
                if e:
                        s.SSSE = e
                        diffuse = Clay(1, 1, 1)
                        sssAmount = PM(1, 'SSS')
                        clr = PMCgc(self.SSSColor, 'SSS Color')
                        sss = clr * sssAmount * SmoothStep(Sub(1, PM(1, 'SSS Falloff')
                               * diffuse)) * diffuse * s.DiffuseColor
                        s.addResult(e * sss)
        def post(self, s):
                        s.Result = Blend(s.Result, s.SSSE, PM(0, 'Show SSS e'))

I've found that even commenting doesn't help sometimes. Well, you've seen my code. What good are my comments? Blind leading the blind... :lol:

Thing to note here, Ohki, is that there isn't a 1 to 1 correspondence of written code to generated node if you write materials using math formulas. Matmatic is highly efficient in making the right node set, so whilst I write pedestrian stuff that references a node and then matmatic creates that node, Bagginsbill writes math formulas that represent real-world materials (Python's really cool that way!) and matmatic then generates these elaborate highly accurate materials. There's a world of difference in the two approaches: both create shaders, but his approach is clearly the more enlightened, using matmatic what it was really designed for.

I'm not clever enough to come up with formulas that reflect real-world materials, so I basically use matmatic for automation. I know: sad, but it's great for that!

Sigh Seems I'll go back to needing 3 material sets for a product then. I can never get the hang of Matmatic - I have NO idea of math formulas, I even forgot what I learned in high school right now. And even if I were to try and blindly learn, what I needed was the part for GC detection, not the part for fake SSS...

Well, thanks anyway xD

Quote - Sigh Seems I'll go back to needing 3 material sets for a product then. I can never get the hang of Matmatic - I have NO idea of math formulas, I even forgot what I learned in high school right now. And even if I were to try and blindly learn, what I needed was the part for GC detection, not the part for fake SSS...

Well, thanks anyway xD

You seriously don't need to be like a math whiz to use matmatic. I'm math-phobic... well, not really, but let's just say i suck at it. And I use matmatic all the time. If you're interested, I've written a simple tutorial on matmatic for those who hate mathematics. It has not been endorsed by the matmatic creator, but several have found it useful, I've been told. There's a part two, and I'm actually working on a part 3, which will deal with how to let matmatic make your life easier. Yes, it can. It really can! particularly if you're a content creator...

Oh. OH! Thanks :D is that a way to download that to my computer, by any chance?

In any case, even knowing how to use it, I'd have to know how something could detect GC... and I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA. Really. Truly truly don't.

Quote - Oh. OH! Thanks :D is that a way to download that to my computer, by any chance?

 

In any case, even knowing how to use it, I'd have to know how something could detect GC... and I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA. Really. Truly truly don't.

To the second question, IsaoShi provided the answer here:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=3644374&ebot_calc_page#message_3644374

And a link to my so-called tutorials are here:

http://www.tightbytes.com/Poser/Projects/Matmatic_01.pdf

and here:

http://www.tightbytes.com/Poser/Projects/Matmatic_02d.pdf

such as they are. There may be errors - for Bagginsbill, I'm quite certain there are errors - but they were not inserted deliberately. These were done with the best of intentions at accuracy and in homage of a great Poser developer and supporter: Bagginsbill.

ETA: if you want help with creating that GC-detection node set, let me know. If BB finds the time, he'll probably be able to do a much better job at it, though... but I'm willing to have a go.

Thank you very much! PDFs saved, will have a look when... well, probably when my mind isn't so boggled with Antonia morphs LOL

About the link, seems well explained... and I can't make head or tail about it. At all. Mind went POOF again. I could with some trouble figure out how to use what's explained in black and white (like the nodes screenshot xD), but I really don't know what to do with the material if those nodes come to the conclusion that render GC is OFF. I don't know how to set GC in materials - though I could use that spiffy Material Room Wacro, yes.

I'll try. When my mind is feeling more fresh. Thank you!

Let me know if you do want some help with it. I really should be doing more for our non-GC enabled Poser users.

One of the problems with this solution - I thought - was that it didn't allow for Conservation of Energy (diffuse + specular should never add up to more than 1 or something like that). Was that right, BB? is that an issue?

Eh. My high school teacher was right, I'll never be allowed to escape from math xDDDD