Quote - Just for whatever it may be worth...

DAZ has decided I shouldnt post in their fora anymore, so forgive me if I look at something that says they "want to chat" and laugh.

Probably wasn't a good idea to taunt the mods in the Merry Christmas thread.... and that was after you created the "I'm sick of this, I'm leaving" thread, which got deleted.

@who3d

Just one more remark on this.

I did not base my remarks on btfurners remark alone, but also on the answers Randy and Rob gave me (in this and other threads here and at DAZ). I tried the forums, bug reports and PM's but to no avail. That makes me believe that the whole exporter thing is not a high priority. The thing which bugs me, is that the next round of problems which will appear after the next version of DS4 exporter is released could have been avoided with better communication. Lack of it just means another month gone.

But without proper official DAZ responses, let's just leave it alone for the time being

Have a happy christmas

Wim

Oh, I agree far more than I disagree - in fact, the very existance of this thread proves, it seems to me, that DAZ have communication issues. One of which is having to try and pull together strands of hints from multiple posts in multiple locations to try and build a coherant picture :(

And yay, it's technically Christmas Day here now. So my chances of getting my little one to bed have probably just plummeted! lol

Quote -
Probably wasn't a good idea to taunt the mods in the Merry Christmas thread.... and that was after you created the "I'm sick of this, I'm leaving" thread, which got deleted.

Context: it's what's for dinner. :D

Ah, well. I doubt this thread is going to come back to life anytime soon. Y'all have a Merry Christmas... I'll poke my head in from time to time, but otherwise I'm unsubscribing from this'un.

They deserved it.

Quote - Just for whatever it may be worth...

DAZ has decided I shouldnt post in their fora anymore, so forgive me if I look at something that says they "want to chat" and laugh.

Maybe this is why they need to chat here. There is nobody left to give honest feedback on their own site. :m_laugh:

Happy Holidays everyone! :m_wave:

:m_laugh: :m_laugh: :m_laugh:

Happy holidays, Janl! :m_wave:

...sean, wow.  I 've always wondered when that will happen to me.

OK, Time for a stop to the nonsense and posturing.

Happy Christmas to all.

"OK, Time for a stop to the nonsense and posturing."

That's always a good idea to avoid getting banned on any site.  I've been on forums that would ban you if you typed in all caps twice or even if you posted in the wrong forum more than once. I know many don't think so, but DAZ and Renderosity are quite lenient compared to other forums.

Anyway, happy holidays to everyone.  :)

Merry Christmas Everybody!

Happy Holidays

Laurie

Quote - > Quote - Just for whatever it may be worth...

DAZ has decided I shouldnt post in their fora anymore, so forgive me if I look at something that says they "want to chat" and laugh.

Maybe this is why they need to chat here. There is nobody left to give honest feedback on their own site. :m_laugh:

Happy Holidays everyone! :m_wave:

 

The sad thing is, that is true.

I already said I don't want my privelages back. My ban is up very soon; like a few days. I don't want to be on the DAZ forum, after all the forum is now nothing more then a cog in the DAZ marketing machine. The first subjects I would bring up would get an immeadiet deletion and have me banned again.

There are topics that are taboo on the DAZ forum, the virtual store, CMS, and DSF are all verboten topics. All topics that need to be dicussed, just not on the DAZ forum.

Now before you think I have nothing to lose by not being part of the DAZ forum, I will have to give up on a beta testing job with DAZ because I don't want to be part of the forum. DAZ's loss, not mine.

It seems no one on the DAZ forum is aware of the virtual store thing. And unless they read other forums they wont be till DAZ springs it on them.

Bah, humbug.

...after several months of issues the store had following last summer's site changes, I can just imagine the headaches the Virtual Store will cause. 

Not thrilled about the prospect of going to the market one day and finding my card rejected at the checkout because my account has been drained due to a "bug" in the Virtual Store that ends up auto ordering and downloading everything off my wishlist.

It's a possiblity. But at this point it is all specutaion. DAZ hasn't given any more then the already known sketchy details.

Just because other options weren't mentioned doesn't mean there wont be any. As I've said, it would be rather foolish of DAZ to only offer this as an option, it would cost them far more customers then they can aford to lose. If that is what happens DAZ's name can be added to other companies that made horrably bad desisions. Like those that chose to support betamax or laser disc instead of VHS.

Locking in studio customers just means locking out everyone else. And I think the "everyone else" out numbers the Dazzers.

Buying through Studio is all kinds of wrong. A hicup or glitch, or your 5 year could cost you dearly. I don't see DAZ doing this ether, it would cause far more problems then it would solve. DAZ would end up havinge more returns then sales. Anyone play MMO's? How often to you hear about someones game getting hacked and them loosing all their in game credts? Would this be any different?

But the thing is DAZ will never know what the DAZ community thinks of this because unless they come here, they are ignorent of it, and with the forum policy, it's not like any one can tell them. My X did the same thing. Always waited till the last minute to give me bad news, even though she knew far in advance. KnocK, knock "oh did I tell you my mother was coming over"? And never understood why I got so mad about it.

Quote - Dear Sir,

Why does content from the DAZ store use installers? Why can't I just unzip a runtime?

The installers:

• are flaky;

I agree fully. I've currently got about $150 of DAZ purchases that just refuse to install. I've followed all the DAZ help pages and finally had a reply to my support ticket. But the reply just sent me links to install information that I had already tried and they didn't work.
I prefer the products that come zipped and we can't go wrong with.

Quote - But the thing is DAZ will never know what the DAZ community thinks of this because unless they come here, they are ignorent of it, and with the forum policy, it's not like any one can tell them. My X did the same thing. Always waited till the last minute to give me bad news, even though she knew far in advance. KnocK, knock "oh did I tell you my mother was coming over"? And never understood why I got so mad about it.

That doesn't matter, because DAZ, quite frankly, doesn't care what we think.  They know the direction they want the company to go & they believe that we will follow them just like lemmings.

The fact that the DAZ evangelist showed up here is an indication that things may not be going quite as planned, because in the past, they have never wanted to hear anything except how great they are.  And our cc numbers, of course.

I don't remember a single case in which DAZ did something, the users complained and DAZ changed accordingly their behaviour. A real case study in customer care; their behaviour painfully reminds me of my last employer who was fond of repeating "customers are imbeciles" forgetting that they were the reason why he could buy himself Cosworth rally cars.

Quote - I don't remember a single case in which DAZ did something, the users complained and DAZ changed accordingly their behaviour. A real case study in customer care; their behaviour painfully reminds me of my last employer who was fond of repeating "customers are imbeciles" forgetting that they were the reason why he could buy himself Cosworth rally cars.

Yep, got to repect your customers otherwise you wake up one day and you have none! :m_thoughtful:

I wouldn't say that DAZ doesn't care what the Poser world thinks. I think DAZ, or their vendors at least, care a great deal about the larger market outside the limited world of Daz Studio users. And I think when the vendors start to feel the pinch, they'll start putting V4 stuff back in the pipeline, as well as increasing numbers of things for Antonia and Anastasia and even Alice 5. At the moment it's just a trickle compared to the Genesis/V5 flood.

I do think DAZ cares MORE about those who buy their program than about those who don't. Why not? Does SM spend a lot of time thinking about how to get Alyson and Ryan into Daz Studio?

Oh, good grief.

Okay, so some people don't like the installers, and would rather have .zip files.

Hes it occurred to anyone making this complaint that he/she may not represent the "majority" of DAZ customers?

Seriously-- if DAZ had thousands of customers complaining about this, such that it was apparent that the majority of customers hated the installers, don't you think DAZ would pay attention?  You bet it would.  Even DAZ isn't stupid enough to ignore a majority of its customers.

The problem with forums generally is that a few vocal (and often strident) people, by means of sheer repetition, come to believe that they constitute a "majority."

Well, sorry, but that's not the case.  The vast majority of customers don't even read or post to the forums. 

As with anything else, "money talks."  If the "majority" of customers really hated the installers that much, they wouldn't buy from DAZ.  And if DAZ noticed a significant drop in its revenues and sales, and traced that drop to the installers, you can bet DAZ would change those installers right quick. 

It always cracks me up when people accuse DAZ of being 'greedy" in one breath, and then, in the next breath, turn around and accuse DAZ of being so "UN-greedy" that it would rather lose money than change its installer system.  Like, how absurd is that?  Get real.  If DAZ is truly "greedy," then it sure the hell isn't going to do anything that causes it to LOSE money.

For the record, I hate the new installers too.  I hate having to go through a bunch of extra clicks, and I hate having to tell the damn instaler not to do this and not to do that, and blah-blah-blah.

But do I hate it SO MUCH that I'm going to stop buying products from DAZ?

No.

"Well, sorry, but that's not the case.  The vast majority of customers don't even read or post to the forums. 

As with anything else, "money talks."  If the "majority" of customers really hated the installers that much, they wouldn't buy from DAZ.  And if DAZ noticed a significant drop in its revenues and sales, and traced that drop to the installers, you can bet DAZ would change those installers right quick. "

I do agree the majority do not read the forum and the point that people should vote with the money.  However, most people also do not tell you why they stop spending; they just stop or go elsewhere.  With tight profit margins you do not need the majority to stop spending either.

I do wish Daz all the best for the future but I have heavily reduced my spending there at Daz and increased my spending at Rendo and one of the reasons was the Daz installers.  It was however only one of the reasons I left another was the whole Genesis thing and the value of the P club at Daz.  I did ask whether there were any plans to improve/change PC on this thread but it was never answers so I assumed the answer is no.  I am now a member of Prime so it it not important to me but I did feel some other users might also be interested.

I am not knocking Daz, I do still buy from Daz but dread installing my meager purchases and I am sure my other dollars will not be missed.   As to whether I turn out to be part of a 'significant minority' only Daz can decide.

I really think that this is significant:

"With tight profit margins you do not need the majority to stop spending either."

It's not like we're this massive community of happy little shoppers. Compared to crafting (like for instance card-making), the size of our community is infinitesimal.

I stopped my PC membership there as well. I'm sure that doesn't hold much significance to Daz's bottom line either. Just sayin'...

Attached Link: http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=178940

The thread was split of from another thread by a Daz_Person, in order to keep the discussion all in one place so that it could be easily monitored by those who need to know, THey are hardly liely to come over here and find the odd remarks hidden in a long thread that has gone off topic so many times it ressembles Hampton Court Maze.

Quote - Do you know that if you were really unhappy about Daz installers and wanted Daz to see your feed back you could have posted your feelings in this thread on the subject, over in the Daz forums, which is where any feedback would be picked up.

The thread was split of from another thread by a Daz_Person, in order to keep the discussion all in one place so that it could be easily monitored by those who need to know, THey are hardly liely to come over here and find the odd remarks hidden in a long thread that has gone off topic so many times it ressembles Hampton Court Maze.

it has already been stated by Randall that DAZ actually have no intention of dropping installers in favour of zips. so any discussion on the matter is moot.

plus, he has also stated that a new way of obtaining/installing DAZ3D products is being developed, and by all accounts , it may be a 'app store' type delivery                ( personally, if it goes that route, it will mean no more purchases from them for me)

Quote - Just as some people are not spending at DAZ, others are spending more at DAZ and less here, so things will even out.

My spending here December 2010  over $400

My spending here December 2011  about $77 ( mostly on Prime items )

Reason. Nothing against Renderosity, there just aren't many Genesis products in the store here ( yet ). 

 

It is the opposite for me: Lots of items in dec 2010 (500$) at DAZ and considerably less in dec 2011 (100$). My spending at Renderosity has remained much the same.

One can't really compare dollar for dollar spending, though, can one? I saved HUGE money being part of the PC: we're talking getting $15 to $22 items for $1.99. No other vendor offered anything close. So, for the longest time, my most frequent purchase events took place at Daz.

(Sheesh, I have items I haven't even installed yet! And I mean heaps and HEAPS of items, too!)

Now, I'm a Prime member... and do some shopping here (much less than before, nothing against Rendo, just the economy, I guess) but my purchasing has actually picked up at DNA. Significantly.

Bought one item at Daz in the past several months: Fabricator for Poser.

Quote - Just as some people are not spending at DAZ, others are spending more at DAZ and less here, so things will even out.

My spending here December 2010  over $400

My spending here December 2011  about $77 ( mostly on Prime items )

Reason. Nothing against Renderosity, there just aren't many Genesis products in the store here ( yet ).

LOL

My spending is the exact opposite of yours.

Spending at Rendo in 2010 - less than $70

Spending at Rendo in 2011 - more than $400

Spending at Daz has been zero for the last few months but I have bought much more at RDNA too.

I am also enjoying the Prime items at Rendo and cancelled my PC membership at Daz.

Equilibrium is good. I am pleased all is well with the world. :m_bouncy:

I skip everything which is DS4 or genesis only and skip most of the character morph sets and then there is not much left. Of what is left there are quite a lot of items which are just a small variation of what is already out there. What remains is mostly tools and props

I do the same at Renderosity and in the end there is much more to choose from

quote "Do you know that if you were really unhappy about Daz installers and wanted Daz to see your feed back you could have posted your feelings in this thread on the subject, over in the Daz forums, which is where any feedback would be picked up."

You could do that but you would only bother if you thought Daz would change it and if it was the only problem you had.  I my case neither is true and on the present course I will not be spending a lot of money at Daz.  I continue to use V4, with a number of 'perfect additions' to help her bend better.  If I were to change I would be looking at some of the reworked figures that are beginning to appear along with early signs that the support is there which has not been the case until now. It is early days yet but the signs are good.

Although I have disliked the much of what has been said since Genesis (on both sides) I have to say I am quite pleased at the way things have changed in the last few months.  I am not accounting blame or trying to start a flame war but, in my personal opinion, some of the products that appeared recently for other figures would probably not have been developed had it not been for Genesis, in the end this could be a win/win situation for some Poser users - me included. 

Quote - But the thing is DAZ will never know what the DAZ community thinks of this because unless they come here, they are ignorent of it, and with the forum policy, it's not like any one can tell them.

I'm not sure we learn more here about DAZ policy than we do on DAZ forums.

Quote - I don't remember a single case in which DAZ did something, the users complained and DAZ changed accordingly their behaviour.

It's happened, in the Platinum Club especailly. although I'm not sure of BEHAVIOUR changes, specific decisions have definately been reversed when there's been sufficient outcry over the situation.

Which also kinda illustrates that an outcry CAN happen - though it happens best if the outcry is about a DAZ decision without transgressing the forum TOS at the same time. Abuse the TOS and your posts are at threat whether you are damning OR praising them. IMHO there are often two issues - "what you say" on forum AND "how you say it". If "how you say it" gets your posts deleted, "what you say" will never get the airing that you feel it deserves. the same is true of any forum, I suspect.

Quote - I saved HUGE money being part of the PC: we're talking getting $15 to $22 items for $1.99.

Me, too. And a lot of Instant Alert stuff as well. But Robyn, aren't they things you never would have bought at "regular" price? It's the same thing here at Rendo. I hardly ever buy anything at full pirce. I either get it at the intro discount, or when the vendor's store goes on sale, or with a coupon, or some combination of those things. And I have Prime now, too. (There are a few things I just won't wait on, the latest being Anastasia. If I had waited just a few days for the Xmas weekend coupon...)

Anyway, re-upped my PC membership at DAZ because they offered a $30 voucher if I did it early. Then came all Genesis all the time. Well, not all the time, but stuff for V4 and Poser is pretty scarce these days. I think it will rebound some, though. The vendors won't leave that money sitting on the table. I think we'll see mlore and stuff over there compatible with both V4 and V5.

Will V4 eventually go the way of V3 and V2? Sure. When Genesis is as easy and natural to use in Poser as V4,and when it will be easy to convert V4 clothes to fit. Even when that happens it will take a long time for thre transition to be widespread. V4 to Genesis is not the same as V3 to V4 by a long shot.

Quote - You could do that but you would only bother if you thought Daz would change it

This is a dual problem, at least. First because of the perception that DAZ won't change course (I make no comment on that in this post) and because if no-one posts their negative opinions (NOT rants) then of COURSE DAZ will stay the course!

DAZ can easily ignore that thread (I didn't know about it and I'd have posted dislike for the current installers-but I don't can can't keep track of every thread on every forum) but if people who know about the thread don't post then they CANNOT affect DAZ's opinion.

Silence is the worst form of communication.

Quote -
It's happened, in the Platinum Club especailly. although I'm not sure of BEHAVIOUR changes, specific decisions have definately been reversed when there's been sufficient outcry over the situation.

And this is where the whole problem is.

I love training my pup but I have to be careful I am consistent. Just one weakness from me and I am reinforcing behaviour I do not want. Occassional reinforcement makes her look upon me as a fruit machine. She does something, it doesn't bring rewards. She does it again. Still no treats. And again... this time Bingo!! She hits the jackpot!! She thinks this is quite addictive and does it all the more! LOL

In my opinion Daz needs to be consistent. They need to do their market research before releasing anything to lessen the outcry. The more they reward the outcry, the more they will have outcry and the louder it will be until they give in. The more bannings they will have and the more dissatisfied customers. TBH, this is not the way to run a business and has created the problems they now have. They need to treat customers with respect, treat them all fairly without favouritism, connunicate with them better and do things a bit more professionally than they are doing at the moment. Just my 2 cents.

Quote - Silence is the worst form of communication

But the safest. Who wants to put themselves in jeopardy when it is already clear they do not want to listen or act upon what they are told? It takes effort to communicate with them. Why bother if it makes no difference and you are just labelled a troublemaker? They have obviously made up their minds on lots of things and talking will make no difference. Much of the silence, by the way, comes from them in my experience.

It seems to me like DAZ can't win on the "change of direction" topic. Either they ignore their customers or they pay too much attention to the WRONG customers!

Quote - Much of the silence, by the way, comes from them in my experience.

Absolutely. Poor communication has been my biggest gripe with DAZ over the years, and has resulted in the biggest foulups I believe. And they have instigated "focus groups" IIRC, in response to some of their earlier foulups, either manned by the wrong people (yes men), or ignored, or... hold on to your hats... simply with different opinions to us :( Probably a combination of the three.

Personally I think there's a huge difference between "dissenters" and "disruptives". I suspect I have differed with DAZ AT LEAST as often as I agree with them - and I've made no bones about telling them about it, either directly or on forums.

They don't always change their minds and follow what I suggest (see:- .zip files) but they don't always ignore me either - because I'm one of their customers. If other customers are making the same point then it would seem DAZ listen. They've yet to ban me (it COULD happen!) and I like to think that one reason for this is that although I prefer to voice my own mind, I also prefer to do so in a way which is as free of abuse as possible. Sometimes I'm outright polite, even :D

Quote - They've yet to ban me (it COULD happen!) and I like to think that one reason for this is that although I prefer to voice my own mind, I also prefer to do so in a way which is as free of abuse as possible. Sometimes I'm outright polite, even :D

Yep, I am polite too. However, I was banned on their site but not for anything I ever did or said in their forum or site. I have never even received a warning there or had any post of mine deleted. I was not even a big forum poster and believe ultimately it is up to them how they run their business. However, it's no wonder some of their customers are feeling a bit miffed at the moment, have withdrawn their support and are questioning their integrity as it seems by their past actions that even posting things here in this forum could be used against you on their site. :m_shocked:

Quote - ever did or said in their forum or site. I have never even received a warning there or had any post of mine deleted. I was not even a big forum poster and believe ultimately it is up to them how they run their business. However, it's no wonder some of their customers are feeling a bit miffed at the moment, have withdrawn their support and are questioning their integrity. :m_shocked:

Without having the details personally - you sound like someone DAZ_Rand would like the details from, to follow up on. Because presented that is something they would NOT want happening.

As I have already said and is evident from this thread, once they make up their mind it takes a lot to change it. I don't even want them to change their minds but I do want to see them behave with more integrity. That is more important to me and will ensure their success. :m_smile:

Quote - As I have already said and is evident from this thread, once they make up their mind it takes a lot to change it.

Wrong. They NEVER changed their behaviour after negative feedback. It's in their corporate DNA to never give a damn about customers opinions. This we-want-to-chat thread is as ridiculus as that poll on their forums about which new features to add to the new Carrara release, started a little more than a week before that Carrara release went into public beta. It is like the joke about the doctor who says to the patient "You can eat whatever you like. Here is the list of what you like".

The problem are the people who proclaim to "vote with their wallets" and still spend tens of dollars every month on DAZ shop. They are sending DAZ mangement the message we-bark-but-we-don't-really-byte; why should then DAZ change?

Folks being banned... this is from the forums or at the store too?

Forums, never heard of anyone being banned from the store. ( they still expect people to buy there even if they don't want you on the forums)

Quote - LOL

My spending is the exact opposite of yours.

Spending at Rendo in 2010 - less than $70

Spending at Rendo in 2011 - more than $400

Spending at Daz has been zero for the last few months but I have bought much more at RDNA too.

I am also enjoying the Prime items at Rendo and cancelled my PC membership at Daz.

Equilibrium is good. I am pleased all is well with the world. :m_bouncy:

 

By the way, this is my spending in December up to now. I would hate to add up my total for the year! :m_laugh:

Yes, they do not ban from their store. They seem to see nothing wrong in treating their customers badly but still expect them to spend. :m_laugh:

As you can see, I do vote with my wallet online, just as I would in the real world.

Quote - Yes, they do not ban from their store. They seem to see nothing wrong in treating their customers badly but still expect them to spend. :m_laugh:

As you can see, I do vote with my wallet online, just as I would in the real world.

 

 

Some weeks ago I sat down and looked at the cost of PC membership, comparing with my purchase at DAZ.  Due to CC limitations, I have to use the monthly membership, or about eight dollars per month.  Over a six month period, my total purchases, most of which were not PC items, came to about half what I had paid for PC membership. 

Looking at the new items as they come out, and realizing I'm a COF, I also realized that I had seen nothing released that brought more than a yawn. 

Studio 4 gets one more hour today, but the outcome is already predetermined, it offers nothing I can't do with other software except use the genesis figure, and the price of V5 is high enough I'm not interested.  Studio 4 is probably the slowest of all the programs I have, and is anything but convenient to use.

The DAZ poser forum, disappointing, very little posted, and it appears most of the threads there were pulled from other forums to pad it.  Not going to bother with it anymore.

DAZ needs to stop and look at what's happening in other places besides DAZ and realize they're one of many and there are other systems that are gaining on their figures.  I've cancelled my PC membership, pulled my CC out, there are other places, most of which offer clothing more suited to my needs (wishes) than the offerings at DAZ.  That is something I can't blame DAZ for, the PA's will make what they want to and hope it sells.  Being a PoserWorld "lifer", I can still find most of what I need. 

The direction they're going as of now is leading them to a dead end.  I'm willing to stand on the side and watch.

I'm on the same boat with PrecisionXXX.

In the last six months I paid only for the PC membership and bought almost nothing, so after a little balance between costs and benefits, the decision to stop paying membership was the only right option.

As I said there, I wish them all the best, but I don't like where they're going.

Well, as far as I can tell that makes at least four people here that have not renewed their PC memberdship not becasue they hated Daz but because it was no longer value for money.  Most then went on and took Prime Membership.  If, as already stated, the majority do not read or input on forums, this could be the tip of the iceburg.

It was this experience that prompted my question in the early pages of this thread asking if there were any plans to change the PC membership.  Now some thirty pages on there is still no answer.  Others will have to form their own conclusions I have formed mine.  Spending so far this month is -

Renderosity = $361.31 (which includes 7 Prime items)

Daz3d = $25.15.

Though this is not the normal spend I think is shows that I do buy from Daz when I see something I like but as the figures suggest, this is not very often.

Quote - Wrong. They NEVER changed their behaviour after negative feedback. It's in their corporate DNA to never give a damn about customers opinions.

I'm thinking of entering my memory in the 'Guinnes Book of World Records' under least reliable, but even so I remember things differently.

I remember when seemingly every major release from DAZ was on a Friday, was buggy, and caused major hassle because it caused people problems worldwide until Monday/Tuesday the next week when DAZ got back into their offices and could "fix it" (whatever "it") was. IIRC they moved major releases to Wednesday (though now they have so many releases I'm not so ture there's any designated day any longer).

I remember when Silverleif Studios products were removed from the Platinum Club, lots of customers complained and explained their objections (mostely rationally, I think). I think DAZ changed the wording of the Plat Club as a result to be more realistic, but also returned the products to the PC - where, on looking just now, they remain to this day.

I remember reading that many items were going to be archived, and complaints that there wasn't enough time to buy them all before they were gone... I'm sure that they extended the time to get them and, in fact, I've just checked on one item (Cool Coils) that I happen to recall was slated for removal and it's still in the store.

They do NOT change direction easily. Not because one or two customers object. Not even 24. But if enough customers actually care enough about the situation, I think they listen and at least TRY to find a compromise situation. Sometimes, this does even involve them doing things differently.

A major change in direction isn't going to come about because one or two folk want it, no matter how hard we yell. It has to actually have more resonance with the customer base than that - which is why I don't expect content in .zip files. I may care passionately, but not enough paying customers do. Such, alas, is life :(

Quote - But do I hate it SO MUCH that I'm going to stop buying products from DAZ?

No.

As a DAZ PA blondie, I would not expect you to stop buying products from DAZ.

I don't like the intallers either, & that wouldn't make me stop shopping there.  Although I have changed platforms over less. 

I would also point out that with newspapers, it is considered a general rule of thumb that for every letter to the editor, there are 100 folks that feel the same way as the letter-writer.

An App store, on the other hand, is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

If the programmers that DAZ hired were competent, that would be one thing.  I own their software (DS 2,3,4; Bryce 5.5, 6, & 7 - RIP, Carerra 5 & 6, Hexagon - RIP. )

Their programmers simply are not that good.  Only 1 MAC programmer & apparently, neither they nor DAZ had spent $99 dollars for a ADC license.  Had that happened, the problems with 10.7 would not have occured.  They would have been aware that Rosetta was going away.  Earlier, they would have known that Carbon-64 was whacked in 2007, I can go on & on & on.

I fully expect DAZ to futz an app store, just like they did the website rollout, Artzone, etc.

They have a long illustrious history of failure when they move outside of providing content.  Which actually is part of the problem.  DAZ takes concepts that work well for selling content & try to apply it to designing software.  Expertise in one area does not translate into expertise in another area, but experts often think so.

The people griping here may be a minority, but face it; DAZ_Rand would not have come onto this forum & started this thread if the bottom line was not being affected.  Listening to the customers, as someone has already pointed out, simply isn't in their DNA.

Quote - Well, as far as I can tell that makes at least four people here that have not renewed their PC membership not becasue they hated Daz but because it was no longer value for money.  Most then went on and took Prime Membership.  If, as already stated, the majority do not read or input on forums, this could be the tip of the iceberg. It was this experience that prompted my question in the early pages of this thread asking if there were any plans to change the PC membership.

As a number of people have already said: this thread has served its purpose for DAZ_Rand. His objectives have been met: finding out from Poser users what would renew their interest in Daz and Daz products. As someone said: we had no questions that needed answering, and as the thread has shown: not too many misconceptions about where Daz was going with their store, installers or whatever.

When I go into the Daz shop, I'm met with a "large proportion" of figures and support for those figures that doesn't interest me. I'm sure they are just what others want, but just not me. And the other items now look more and more "been there, smoked that, got the t-shirt".

So, no, I didn't stop spending at Daz because of issues I have with the company - that not to minimise the issues that exist or other people's experiences with this outfit: just my own take. There's just nothing there I want. I've got everything anyone could ever want for V4 and then some. Scenery stuff is too dear: I'll use Vue for that because Poser tends to poo itself on large items anyway. (Two trees and its eyes are bulging out.)

I did buy an app there but it was incomplete: no documentation. That was my last purchase. I realise from reading the support thread that I'm a bit of an anomaly: the rest of the customers "got it" just fine... they thought it was plenty intuitive enough and appeared to wonder why I have problems getting it to work. Indeed, the developers themselves were a bit taken aback at my insistence that documentation was needed for things like terms of use, terms of "resource kit", etc. But before some Daz forum zealot jumps down my throat about this, let me also add that both developers bent over backwards answering questions politely (I was a fair bit less than polite) and in every way made themselves available to make the product work for me. They were there. One even made a quick video. Seriously, I have to commend these two for this: they deserve a LOT of credit for after-market support above and beyond the call of duty.
Given the fact that I was practically the only person in the thread with this concern, I'm beginning to see that it was more a cultural issue: Daz users don't expect documentation to be included in any of their products, so content developers are surprised when it is asked of them.

I fully expect a zealot to answer to this, as they do. Please understand this is an accurate account of my experience yesterday with a product: I am trying to be completely fair and accurate but also not doing the Daz-forum sugarcoat, either.

To be completely honest, I'm not purchasing much here in the MP either. For exactly the same reasons that I encounter at the Daz store: no, there's not a lot of Genesis stuff here, but that's not a pivotal point for me. It's all getting to be the same-ol', same-ol' repackaged and re-named and just not much I really can't live without.

What am I really interested in? What am I willing to spend cold hard cash on? Ah, that's it, isn't it? What do customers want?

FYI: most of my spending atm is at DNA. They seem to have the most stuff that appeals to me atm. Just sayin'...

"Their programmers simply are not that good."

"I fully expect DAZ to futz an app store, just like they did the website rollout, Artzone, etc."

And I fully expect you and the same dozen other people who keep ignoring the moderators requests and attacking DAZ every time you open your mouths to gripe about whatever DAZ does, even if it's successful. This is getting ridiculous - WE GET IT, you don't like DAZ. You're not buying from them, WE KNOW. Every damn day, every damn time I come here looking for information or to see what's new and I have to read this! How many sites do you need to flood and turn into DAZ-hating clubhouses? Give it a rest for heaven's sake.

SnowS

I have not read through the entire thread yet so a lot of this may have already been said and I am sure it is not in continuity of what is currently being discussed.  I do apologize for that, but I stopped reading around page 10 or so.  But, this thread was started because DAZ wants feedback and for us to get things clarified and any time I post over at the DAZ 3D forum, my comments get deleted so I'm going to try here and see what happens (though I have little hope I will be heard as I have been ignored on DAZ's official facebook page as well).

Now, let me start out by saying that I have more then once seen Genesis and DS 4 compared to BluRay. Which is fine, but I would point out that you can still buy DVDs and DVD players. Not just that, but movies that come out now come in DVD, BluRay, and DVD/BluRay combo. Some independent releases even still only come out on DVD with no high def option. In truth I wish the whole Genesis/DS 4 thing was like BluRay because that would mean that every product that comes out would have a Poser version (probably for V4), a DS version (probably a Genesis version) and an option to get both. That would be absolutely fantastic and a win for everyone. Or, as another option, make the DSF format less closed so that items for Genesis could be converted to V4 or other figures usable in Poser through XDresser or something similar. So, yes, I tend to think that DAZ thought they were Sony (referencing the HD DVD vs BluRay "war" here) but it turns out they do not have that much power. Also, I love that so many people from DAZ (staff, PAs and forum people) are so quick to say that if we want Genesis to work in Poser we need to talk to SM. When you buy a PC game and it doesn't work with your system, do you complain to the company that made the computer or the company that made the game? Or, using the BluRay/DVD example again, if a movie comes out in DVD only, but you want a BluRay version do you contact the maker of your BluRay player to tell the studio to release the movie in BluRay? Just something to think about.

Speaking of PAs, I do wish there was some way for DAZ to moderate their trolling in other forums. I mean why do they pop in here on Renderosity or RuntimeDNA in droves to defend DAZ or DS at times saying such mean things and all by personally attacking people when they could just simply ignore it? To use a quote "we only feel the need to defend against things we fear might be true". Not to mention, it's just not good business for them or for DAZ. There are several PAs I will not longer buy from due to their actions/responses in the forums.

Moving on, I want to point out, that as someone who is professionally trained in illustration, modeling, animation, graphic design and video, I do not understand this need to have all figures in one figure. I just don't. I can see potential from a content creator standpoint as it is, in theory, quicker and easier (though from what I have seen I do not know that this is the case). I can also see how for some who want to make things quickly and easily as opposed to correctly that it is appealing, but as someone who tends to be a perfectionist and spends hours upon hours making everything just right in every scene I do (and that is before rendering anything), I just don't see the point. I would rather have individual figues with their own unique traits. I was upset about the Gen 4 unimesh at first as well, but I do see the benefit in having a base female and base male to build from now. I do not see why every gender, age, and critter imaginable needs to be put into one figure though. I honestly don't. To me, it's like those all-in-one printer, copier, fax monstrousities that are out now. They do all these things acceptably, but excel at none. I would rather excel at one thing then do a lot of thing poorly.

So, having said that, let me say that I am interested in knowing what market DAZ is heading towards with their new software and innovations. I think it's safe to assume since the store for them seems to have disappeared that they have found it is not feasible to cater to the indie gaming crowd as they want everything for free or for cheap so bulk licensing is not something they are interested in. They wanted to use the free version of V4 freely in their games which is just not feasible for many, many reasons, but most don't understand that and I'm not going to go into it. But anyway, the reason I bring it up at all is because so many people talk about bringing DAZ up to "industry standard" and I am curious as to which industry they are going after. Do they honestly assume that high end illustrators and animators use figures like Genesis? In gaming they do to conserve resources in the way I see DAZ doing so, but not in animation and illustration. Have they ever seen a step by step of how these things are done?

In all honesty, the new direction DAZ is taking scares me. Why? Because with the new CEO coming from a craft gadget background, I worry that DAZ is going to cater more and more to "three click art hobbyists" as I call them. Those people who load in everything from presets, click render and BAM! Image complete. No custom lights, no adjustments or custom textures, just click, click, click, ART! The fact that so many textures at DAZ now have painted on wrinkles, highlights and shadows which means they look odd in different light settings only lends creedance to this in my mind. The fact that the DSF file format is so closed that in order to get things to work in other programs I would have to actually open up DS and export things out of it to make adjustments instead of being trusted with an object and texture files makes me think that as well. It also makes me think that DAZ is going the way of so many software companies whose software I will not use because in order to stop piracy hey punish the ones who obtain things legally. The talk of a download manager like Steam being used for downloads in the future only confirms this. App store type tech works great for cellphones and tablets, but not for computer games or content. I absolutely hate using Steam or Origin and I have had to reformat entire machines due to Steam messing them up so much!

So let's talk about Genesis. Interesting idea, but the autofit needs a lot of work. I mean have you seen the odd, jaggy bumps it puts in clothing when it converts things to fit (look at the back waist band of pants for an example)? I don't know if it's the Sub-D or what, but it looks awful. Not to mention the breasts area on women. I have seen models in stores where the shirt clinges to every bit of the breasts in a horribly unnatural way and thought "how horrible, I am glad that DAZ has more quality control then that" but I look at these autoconverted and autofitted things with mangled and warped geometry that follows the lines of the body creating odd bumps and clothing that is so tight it looks painted on when it's should be loose and I cringe. I mean how often when you see a women in a tank top do the straps bulge out on the collarbone like in so many Genesis renders? Or see fabric so tight that is actually clinges to the sternum between the breasts? If you are striving for reality, then this type of things needs to be fixed pronto. As do the proportion and anatomy issues that come up. Like how it's obvious that most of the muscles where modeled for a male figure as the hips and abdominals do not look feminine when adding in to the female figures. They look transgendered rather then female. I have brought this up numerous times and been told that 1) I just don't understand the program or 2) I just don't understand anatomy. The first may be true, but after 6 years of art classes including figure drawing and anatomy, I can tell the second one is not. Males and females are different in the way their bodies look, bend and move. They just are and it is noticable in Genesis that the muscle groups and such are all based on men. This is not just my opinion. I have shown renders from DAZ products of V5 and the Genesis female that are actual product promos used on the DAZ site to friends and coworkers and have heard the "she looks transgendered" be mentioned without my prompting it. So, you tell me if it's a problem or not?

The weight mapping is good and I applaud both DAZ and SM for finally adding this. I find it amusing that both companies chose to use their own types of weight mapping as opposed to something that would work in both programs, but not unexpected.

And finally, DAZ with DS 4 and Genesis has, whether it was their intent or not, made the "my progam is better then yours" disagreement that has been going on for years worse and by some extension SM has, too. I just hope that DAZ's action with the release of DS 4 and Genesis has not soured too many Poser users to Genesis so much that when they have a version of some sort that will work in Poser, Poser users won't even want to use it. I know that it's going to take a lot of convincing for me for onr to even try Genesis in Poser as I'd rather not be bothered with the whole thing and find alternative means since DAZ's actions and responses to me have only made me think they don't want my business anyway. Plus there is the whole thing about DAZ Studio not working well on my machine because I refuse to use NVidia graphics (ATI all the way!) because of their overclocking and having horrible experiences with the company. So, I can't even use it as an exporter on my main work computer at this point.

Anyway, just my 2 cents. My apologies if I have offended anyone, but honestly, having gotten all of this out in the open for others to see has been cathartic for me....

Best to all!

DAZ Vendors/PA's have said ( in various forum posts ) that sales for Genesis stuff is really great.

It seems the strategy of giving away Studio and the Gen3 human models over the past few years is paying off.

A  ton of new light buyers are replacing a small number of heavy buyers.

It is all pure business in the end.

Genesis frees up a lot of potential buying money from the small heavy buying crowd who won't invest in Genesis nor it's 3rd party supposrt... money that clever vendors could tap into.