P.S. (Dunno who said it about other 3D Apps needing to be changed to accommodate)

Genesis is far too new and unproven for any of the other application developers to give it a serious look just yet.
I'd imagine they'll want it around a few years before adding support.

Imagine you wrote in support for Genesis into say, the next version of Maya, and then Daz decides that Genesis just wasn't all it was cracked up to be (sales wise) and drops it?

I'm guessing it'll be a few years before any of the other software developers adds Genesis support, and I think they'd only do it if their users demanded it. (Maybe.)

PS I don't know this, as I don't have Vue, but does Vue support .ds?
I know ZBrush had a Poser importer of sorts for years. Does it import DS? (Without GoZ)
I know I didn't have to install a plugin to import from Poser (but I did have to have poser installed if I remember right)

It just makes me wonder, because other 3D Apps will import native Poser, or have some kind of importer. As I don't use DS, I don't know if it's the same with that.

I remember Bryce imported Poser just fine, too. Before Daz got their hands on it.

Thanks for the tip, Laurie but I really cannot get on with video tutes, for some reason.  Well, for two small, shouty reasons actually.  ;)

I find it much easier to have a fixed page of text with pictures to read, rather than looking at a moving image.  It's also easier to go back over stuff when you have to stop reading to stop Sam and Ilona painting the furniture with yogurt or eating diaper cream.

I'd be just dandy if I knew what the hell splines were. :D 

Quote - Thanks for the tip, Laurie but I really cannot get on with video tutes, for some reason.  Well, for two small, shouty reasons actually.  ;)

I find it much easier to have a fixed page of text with pictures to read, rather than looking at a moving image.  It's also easier to go back over stuff when you have to stop reading to stop Sam and Ilona painting the furniture with yogurt or eating diaper cream.

I'd be just dandy if I knew what the hell splines were. :D 

Paths, more or less. Curves....make a path and choose a shape to extrude along the length of it. Very handy. You can also bend things with em. Etc.

Laurie

So Bendy things then...

I believe that's the correct technical term, Steve.  Bendy things.

"Imagine you wrote in support for Genesis into say, the next version of Maya, and then Daz decides that Genesis just wasn't all it was cracked up to be (sales wise) and drops it?"

 DAZ is creatine a plugin for Maya. IIRC, I saw that it is already fairly far along. Meanwhile, apparently folks are getting Genesis into Maya already - maybe using FBX, I didn't watch the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4kitRmrke8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4kitRmrke8

Wow, that was it? At least DAZ lives up to it's name, create a huge hype and then deliver nothing.

Brian Howell responed to those who were unhappy about paying full price...

We here at DAZ have thoughtfully considered the opinions, thoughts, and in some cases, discontent expressed in this thread regarding our decision to make a suite of our software products available for free.

Our reasoning in making the suite available for free is simple; increase the number of people using our software and broaden the base of potential customers and content creators.

Regarding the displeasure that has been expressed here by customers unhappy that they purchased the software early; complaints about bugs, lack of documentation or other perceived flaws in the software could have been addressed within 30 days of your purchase and you would have received a full refund.

DAZ has the most liberal refund policy in the industry!!!
We reiterated that we would honor that policy and we continue to do so.

Despite allegations to the contrary in this thread, DAZ values its customers and community.

As always, if you are truly dissatisfied with our products or service, the best thing to do is to contact our customer support by phone or by opening a ticket.

Here's the link-about half way down...

http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=182614&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=760

Why does she look like a gorilla in that video? Did anyone notice that? LOL. Knees bent slightly, arms kicked up at the shoulder. I expected her to start scratching her head at any second ;). Funny too how her hair stayed perfectly in place all the way through a backflip LOL.

In all seriousness though, I don't see anything about Genesis (and I did play with the DS4 basic version quite a bit) that I would consider earth shattering and something I must have. It's too bad too....Daz created all this hype and now can't live up to it. I actually feel bad for 'em.

Laurie

so what have we learnt from this and other daz pricing in the past?

simply, don't buy their products on release. if you wait, you can get them for a fraction of the price or free later on, either directly from them or via magazines.

*shrug

You know people were saying "V5 free" etc?

V5 is on the latest edition DVD of 3D World.

On sale in UK newsagents: 31 January 2012
On sale US newsstands: From 29 February 2012

And if you go to their page there is a 20% off coupon for the Standard or Pro bundle as well.

Hah. Yep. Wonder how many bought the lower end V5 bundle, and here she is on the magazine cover dvd. I foresee more moaning.

Quote - You know people were saying "V5 free" etc?

V5 is on the latest edition DVD of 3D World.

On sale in UK newsagents: 31 January 2012
On sale US newsstands: From 29 February 2012

And if you go to their page there is a 20% off coupon for the Standard or Pro bundle as well.

Hah. Yep. Wonder how many bought the lower end V5 bundle, and here she is on the magazine cover dvd. I foresee more moaning.

3D Artist has the V5 Valerie Elite texture (which came out less than two months ago) free in Issue 38, as well as a coupon, but it's in the magazine...

For Hexagon tuts, I like this one too:

http://3dexport.com/3dtuts/category/3d-tutorials/hexagon/

The gear ring thing is pretty cool.

Has anyone noticed the game change while the rest of us were busy poking this dead horse?

Regarding Brian Howell's response to angry DS4 Pro customers who recently bought the expensive software only to see it given away... He really just repeated that Daz has a 30-day refund policy. His statement notably did NOT have anything to comfort those who bought it 31+ days before the giveaway.

Now, to be fair, if they're going to do this they have to draw the line somewhere. No matter where that line is, 30 days, 45 days, 60 days, there are going to be outraged buyers on the wrong side of the line. I don't know what to do about that, but I do feel bad for anybody who paid for it, especially those who didn't get a discount.

I also feel bad for people who pay hundreds of dollars for something only to see it included free on a DVD that comes with a $10 or 15 magazine.

I understand developers giving deep discounts (or perhaps giving away) software after a new version comes out or even a year or two after it comes out, but 5 months? What?? I'd be pissed :P.

Laurie

I can't even imagine how I would feel if, a few months after PP2012 came out at $499 ($249 upgrade), SM decided to give it away for a month and then priced the full version at $49 or $79 (which is what will happen with DS4 Pro, I am utterly certain). I wouldn't be shrugging my shoulders, I suspect.

If PP2012 came out for free, I would probalby get several more licesnes even if I had to register the neighbors dog.

lmk

Quote - If PP2012 came out for free, I would probalby get several more licesnes even if I had to register the neighbors dog.

lmk

Actually, that is precisely what I would do as well. I would see this as an opportunity to get someone near-and-dear started on the latest-greatest and thus end up not being the only one doing Poser in my group of visible acquaintances. Yep, I actually have some of those.

Quote - Regarding Brian Howell's response to angry DS4 Pro customers who recently bought the expensive software only to see it given away... He really just repeated that Daz has a 30-day refund policy. His statement notably did NOT have anything to comfort those who bought it 31+ days before the giveaway.

Now, to be fair, if they're going to do this they have to draw the line somewhere. No matter where that line is, 30 days, 45 days, 60 days, there are going to be outraged buyers on the wrong side of the line. I don't know what to do about that, but I do feel bad for anybody who paid for it, especially those who didn't get a discount.

I also feel bad for people who pay hundreds of dollars for something only to see it included free on a DVD that comes with a $10 or 15 magazine.

Can you imagine being a PA over there?  I remember a comment from one of them when it came out that they had to pay for it too. 

DAZ just invited tons of competition for them, after they paid that steep price.

Quote - If PP2012 came out for free, I would probalby get several more licesnes even if I had to register the neighbors dog.

lmk

Same here. I wouldn't mind a second licence actually, so I don't think I'd be too mad if PP2012 was suddenly free for a month. But I could be wrong.... ;)

I feel bad for the people Daz snared with their sales pitch though. I remember all those email newsletters I was getting full of how this was going to be the best deal ever on DS4!

I really don't see how they can charge for software.  After loading Hexagon, and finding the manual buried deep in Program Files (86 in my case), with little or no other documentation.  Finding the manual, I see it's full of broken links ... DAZ is half assed.  Always has been.  DAZPeople, DAZ People (anyone notice the spacing?).

And what's with the program creating the "My DocumentsDAZHexagon" folder?  Deleted it twice before I realized Hexagon was re-creating the thing ...

I do like the software, and it was free, otherwise ....

Well, it sure is game changing.

Everybody is buying Poser now. :-)

A good application with a very good manual.

A very active Poser team.

Lots of content and figures ready or in the making????

I Might use Hexagon.

Quote - I really don't see how they can charge for software.  After loading Hexagon, and finding the manual buried deep in Program Files (86 in my case), with little or no other documentation.  Finding the manual, I see it's full of broken links ... DAZ is half assed.  Always has been.  DAZPeople, DAZ People (anyone notice the spacing?).

And what's with the program creating the "My DocumentsDAZHexagon" folder?  Deleted it twice before I realized Hexagon was re-creating the thing ...

I do like the software, and it was free, otherwise ....

The manual is the last one written by Eovia before they sold the software to Daz. Not only is it full of broken links, it's outdated ;). Thank goodness there's a ton of tutorials for it ;).

Laurie

Quote - Brian Howell responed to those who were unhappy about paying full price...

Our reasoning in making the suite available for free is simple; increase the number of people using our software and broaden the base of potential customers and content creators.

Interesting statement...

There already is a basic free version to attract new users and broaden their customer base.

They should have silently behind the scenes given a free copy to any vendor who has sold a V4 item in their store.

I think they expected a title wave ala when V4 came out and got a ripple instead from their own loyal users (not counting the poser users for which Genesis and the export plugin has gotten zero traction.)

I wonder how many Poser 9/Pro 2012 copies did Brian Howell cold, un-empathic post sell :biggrin:.

Probably the idea behind the whole operation was, following Lincoln quote (You can fool some of the people...) to find a batch of new customers having already planned to lose some of old ones. Will balance be positive or not? it is for posterity to judge.

Quote - Probably the idea behind the whole operation was ... to find a batch of new customers having already planned to lose some of old ones. 

I'm not sure they were thinking this, exactly. But they probably did think that their existing customers already have runtimes bloated with content, a lot of it redundant (speaking for my own runtime). It gets harder and harder to sell to that crowd.

So a more profitable target for Daz is the people just starting in 3D, who will spend lots of $$ on content. If it's Daz Studio 4 and Genesis they're starting out on, they'll start off their content purchases with Daz vendors and stuff related to Genesis.

It's a logical strategy. Most of the $$ has already been squeezed out of the old crowd; they're just not buying as much any more. New blood, new revenue is needed. Everybody does it. Smith Micro employs it to a different extent with Poser Debut and its own store, Content Paradise.

Reducing the flagship software from $429 to free overnight seems a bit extreme. I'm sure the Daz honchos thought so as well, thus to them it felt like shaking up the industry and changing the game.

You want to know what a good stratagey would be? Doing things right the FIRST time! That means having releases be as bug free as humanly possible at release time and having D.O.C.U.M.E.N.T.A.T.I.O.N!!!! Oh and stop treating your clients as cash cows to be milked of their last penny....

Quote - Interesting statement...

There already is a basic free version to attract new users and broaden their customer base.

They should have silently behind the scenes given a free copy to any vendor who has sold a V4 item in their store.

I think they expected a title wave ala when V4 came out and got a ripple instead from their own loyal users (not counting the poser users for which Genesis and the export plugin has gotten zero traction.)

It is obvious that DAZ bought a reality distortion field generator at Steve Job's estate sale. And they are using on themselves, not their customers.

There was no chance in hell that a tidal wave of content was going to come out. New content creation tools, no documentation, no Poser compatibility.  This had FAIL written all over it.

The real question is can they recover.  Slash and Burn marketing doesn't work long-term.  I suspect they will ride the plan down in flames, blaming their customers the entire time.

Oh, look, I just got an email from Smith Micro.  Poser 9 & 2012 is on sale.  How convienent.

SM didn't make an announcement that they were going to announce this but they have a Valentine sale on Poser 9 and Poser Pro 2012.

Quote - Well, I bit. Downloaded it. My limitation, however, is time.

And this, my friends, sums it all up. I'm a Help Desk Analyst with a lot of commute time, I like to play in Poser (still a lot of things to learn there, mind you), write, and read with my Kindle. Play with my cats. Empty my brain from the day's quota of stupid people on the phone. In other words, I have a life - a seriously busy one. I have no desire to add a second Poser-styled app to it when I still have a lot to learn from the original!

I did download all three, though. DS4 strictly in case DS5 turns out to be the best thing since sliced bread and I want a cheaper upgrade path (or, wait six months and get THAT for free...). Bryce because if I can fit it into my life I'd honestly love to learn it. Hexagon -- never modelled a thing in my life but now with a modelling program I just might consider it. Bookmarked the tutorials while I was at it.

As to Daz's motivation, I'm with others here in that the whole Genesis thing just didn't quite make it and they're looking for more users by giving it away. V5 in a magazine? That sure didn't take long. I remember seeing V1, V2 and maybe V3 distributed that way, but that was long after the newest version was out. Interesting.

Quote - It is obvious that DAZ bought a reality distortion field generator at Steve Job's estate sale.

DAZ (or any company for that matter) SHOULD have attended Steve Job's estate sale, in hopes of coming away with some inkling how to turn out innovative products that are stunningly succesful even among the Apple-bashing camp, despite the fact said products usually cost more. That's a business model to emulate.

Is anybody really surprised that SM has put Poser 9 / 2012 on sale a few days after Daz made DS4 Pro free? Daz will doubtless point to that as an example of how its giveaway is changing the industry. SM, of course, was planning this sale all along and it has nothing to do with the DS4 Pro giveaway. (cough)

imax24 take care of that cold :biggrin:

If you glance at the forums elsewhere....timing is everything...:laugh:

All actions create unintented consiquences!

I downloaded and installed all three last week.

I've uninstalled Bryce: I had this in Metacreations days (around V3) and 14 years later it seems to be exactly the same! It's so very far behind Vue that it will clearly never catch up.

I will probably uninstall DS4 Pro: the interface is a shambles and I simply can't be bothered to learn my way round it.

Hexagon is the one I'll be keeping, it's a nice little modelling app. 

those that paid for pro give them $500 worth of content ? or give them carrara ?

free upgrades for life ?

Anyways i can aford free ,there kool apps.

In larges my cgi arsinal.

I've never done this vs that app.

if poser gives me poser for free ,kool

DS now works like the main 3D apps.

Like Blender,Max,C4D waited on this sence Poser 3 days.

Thank the CGI Gods finaly got there.

oh. drama. again.

Quote - > Quote - As to Daz's motivation, I'm with others here in that the whole Genesis thing just didn't quite make it and they're looking for more users by giving it away. V5 in a magazine? That sure didn't take long. I remember seeing V1, V2 and maybe V3 distributed that way, but that was long after the newest version was out. Interesting.

Months ago, when I gave, in forum, rational reasons for this line of thinking, I was summarily lynched by "certain people" (who, being DAZ PAs had financial reasons for their attitude) and, worst, by forum moderators. I was even twice, in no equivocal way, told to pack by JenX (the "we want DAZ to succed" lady). Now, a forum coordinator writes this stuff.

No comments are needed.

No bye at all.

Alex, that was months ago. Things have changed, don't you think? I think Brynna should be able to contribute... sorry. We were all attacked by those PAs and I've been asked to pack as well, but that's the past. I'm glad it's behind us.

The manual is the last one written by Eovia before they sold the software to Daz. Not only is it full of broken links, it's outdated ;). Thank goodness there's a ton of tutorials for it ;).

The links in question take the user to DAZ.  I don't think Eovia would create a lot of links going nowhere to DAZ.  DAZ3D must have hosted the MOV examples somewhere on their site and now that somewhere re-directs back to their front page.

The software was free to me, so it's all good.  I just think if you are selling software loose ends like broken links and help files that don't work should be fixed.  The product as it stands is unprofessional and lacking.  It's a kin to downloading a freestuff product and finding missing texture files or bad path statements ... It's a freestuff item so you shrug it off.  You fix it if you are inclined or delete it.

Playing with Hexagon, and seeing DAZ in action, I don't think I would drop loot on ANY of their software.  But, that's just me I guess ...

Hexagon is a nice little modeler.  I started on it and moved up to Silo, but it did the job.  There are 2 quirks that make a difference:

1.  When it works, it works.  When it doesn't it is infuriating.  Save often so you don't lose work when it crashes, because it will.  If it's working on your computer, that will be few and far between, but if it decides to hate your computer, it will be often.

2.  OBJECT bloat.  For some reason, saved object files are considerably larger than most other modelers, but that normally makes no difference to your users.  I have no idea why it does this, nor do I care as long as the models are useful.

I'm sure the missing tutorials at the DAZ site are because of ArtZone being taken down.  If they put them back up, they are useful at explaining a tool.  Short and sweet, but explain the tool very well.

Quote - *The manual is the last one written by Eovia before they sold the software to Daz. Not only is it full of broken links, it's outdated ;). *

Kinda OT, but speaking of manuals (or the lack thereof)...

I went into the Staples online print center to see what it would cost to print one bound copy of Poser's 800+ page PDF manual, as close as possible to the way SM would do it, if they did, which they don't.

More than $400.

I like to do as much reading as possible away from a computer screen, but not THAT bad.

Ha-ha-ha-
That is why I bought a neat 10"netbook.
Some of my best spend 250 euro, and VERY helpfull....

Even runs PoserPro 2012 :-) with ease.

Quote - > Quote - *The manual is the last one written by Eovia before they sold the software to Daz. Not only is it full of broken links, it's outdated ;). *

Kinda OT, but speaking of manuals (or the lack thereof)...

I went into the Staples online print center to see what it would cost to print one bound copy of Poser's 800+ page PDF manual, as close as possible to the way SM would do it, if they did, which they don't.

More than $400.

 

 

I'd be looking for some other source.  I had the manuals for four different programs printed out locally, all in the 400 - 500 page area, about $35 for each of them.  Added plus, dropped the disk off in the morning, picked it up the same afternoon, punched and bound. D.

Quote - 2.  OBJECT bloat.  For some reason, saved object files are considerably larger than most other modelers, but that normally makes no difference to your users.  I have no idea why it does this, nor do I care as long as the models are useful.

In hexagon that's easily fixed. It happens when multiple objects are saved into one, such as the V4 object.

Select an obj within the file (v4's hip or whatever), go to the selection menu and select all. Go to the tools menu and under Utilities, select merge duplicated UV's, then save the obj.

Quote - oh. drama. again.

Nope, just a little ripple in the conversation.

Quote - I think Brynna should be able to contribute...

Thanks for the vote of confidence! I plan to keep right on contributing!

Quote - I like to do as much reading as possible away from a computer screen, but not THAT bad.

I gather the price was because it was bound. Oy. If you're going to spend that kind of money, spend 80 bucks and get an e-reader that will read PDF's. Then you can load all of your manuals on it and have them right at your fingertips. Just a thought.

Too bad SM doesn't have an option for purchasing a printed manual.

I bought my LookBook eBook reader from CVS Pharmacy for $49.95 when it was on sale this last summer. Worth every penny.

Bye!! Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Laurie

see you in a few months, just like last time you "left".

So much melodrama and angst over something that should be just a light diversion from our everyday lives.

Back on topic, I hope the influx of free DS4 owners will, in the long run, result in a product that is more intuitive and user-friendly. And some instructions on how to use the damn thing. This would make sense, because I assume Daz is not looking to pull more people into the hobby only to see them migrate to Poser.

Having both Poser and Daz Studio as viable platforms is a healthy thing for our hobby. I wish they were a little more compatible with each other, but I wouldn't want to see alternatives to Poser go away. Competition is good for us. The folks at SM need to be kept on their toes. 

I'm just waiting for the Poser to Blender script to be finished and I'll be thrilled...lol.

Laurie

So what was the big annoucement?