Nevertheless, I see little reason for the cloth-vendors to fiddle with V4-WM when it can so easely be done by the users. The characters-vendors must come first! BTW is there a single V4-WM "Vera" or "Alexis"? Just one?

?

Take every V4 character morph and texture pack and apply it to V4WM

Why must the character vendors come first?

Skins are already out there, morphs are out there, peolpe can make theor own characters quite easily these day.

V4WM works with the avalaiable characters that people already have for V4,2.

There is no first on anything.

If you just keep bringing out characters, people ask, where are the clothes.

It's just a chicken or egg situation.

All the best.

LROG

That won't do I said, "new, wonderfully beautiful and haunting "Vera" or "Alexis".

When I see a new genesis character not to speak of the hair, I am striken by the distinct quality improvment. Now when Poser has weight-mapping why don't I see the same? It is not enough that is bends and behave better etc..

It is the new characters that are the locomotive for the Genesis train.

This is for Poser, not Genesis, lets not get into that one again.

All the best.

LROG

Quote - Take every V4 character morph and texture pack and apply it to V4WM

If that worked so well, that would answer the question: "why are there (and never will be) any V4WM specific sets?".

Personally, i believe that it will be not so simple, because it sounds much like "take any P5 material and put it into P2010, and you will have the same quality with gamma correction", which only works so far. (I am using P2010, so i have not tried V4WM or the outfitter, and do not know how well they actually work). But i think, similar to materials, the character/clothing/whatever creators have built their figures around the limitations of older Posers using a lot of dirty tricks which will get in the way when using their products with a different model. All speculation, of course.

The most beautiful character skins are for V3, imo.

To remap a figure to V3 textures and be legal to share it,
we just have to make sure we don't change zones, right? 
It should be a simple import uvs process?

:idea:

A python script utility to import a .uvs set to a figure in the document window, without having to go through the uvmapperclassic process, would be soooooo awesome.

In this world of instant's, remember that things specific for V4WM will appear, just give them time.

All the best.

LROG

I disagree about people not finding value in free products; I've gotten a lot of stuff for free over the years that have been very useful--including figures.  I think that vendors make things based upon what's popular--if they don't preceive a product as being popular then they won't feel there are any sales in items for that figure.  I do think that the figure creator should support their own figure and create content for them.  This was done with Apollo and it helped the figure get exposure and other vendors did create a decent amont of stuff for him and I think they'd still be creating stuff for him if the 3rd generation of Apollo had ever been released.  I think what's killing content creation for him is the fact that vendors know there won't be any future support from the developer with him.

As soon as my lady appear I'll make her a new Jeanne d'Arc costume, the most beautiful you have seen.

The thing about weight mapping is that it is for rigging etc.

Poser Pro 2012 includes advanced Weight Map Rig support enabling vertex by vertex fine painting of joint bends and bulges, to generate better performing 3D characters that can be more easily posed with natural joints across the body. Hybrid Rigging supports both traditional Poser Sphere and Capsule zones to be used in combination. Poser Pro also supports both traditional grouped body part figures and single mesh figures. Weight Map Support for third party figures is delivered within our native poser file format, the PZ3, an open, well documented format that has been at the heart of the creative Poser community for over 15 years.

All the best.

LROG

Joan of Arch, that sound cool?  Any other historical characters you plan of introducing?

Attached Link: Angry Knight

Actually I felt the painful limitations of the non-weight mapped mesh when I worked on the knight, (see link). Especially with multi layered cloth like this.
So everything is on hold right now I don't know what character to make a bet for. Hopefully the situation will sort it self out. In the meanwhile it is nice to have time to study, Marvelous Designed just released a new bunch of tricks this very morning! 

this says it's for P8    

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/bumper-car-ride/89837

Attached Link: http://www.contentparadise.com/productDetails.aspx?id=11868

Misty, If you really want to use V3 skins on V4, DPH has you (or rather, V4! ) covered :)

Quote - > Quote - The most beautiful character skins are for V3, imo.

To remap a figure to V3 textures and be legal to share it,
we just have to make sure we don't change zones, right? 
It should be a simple import uvs process?

 

Misty, If you really want to use V3 skins on V4, DPH has you (or rather, V4! ) covered :)

Thanks.

i was thinking of Anastasia, or Alyson2 rather.

I've always been fond of Sydney, but she's not weightmapped.

A weight mapped version of Sydney is in the making:

http://poserplace.phantom3d.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=213

Oh Sydney :wub:

I downloaded both V4WM and the Outfitter script within days of them being available and have used them ever since.  I was not interested in the other new figures mainly for the reason I have created a couple of characters over the past year or more that I want to use for some story telling.  All of the female characters are based on V4 and, as I have few skills myself, are a result of tweaks with morphs, materials and combinations of characters that I have purchased.  I guess like the writer of a novel I have become familiar with them.   Could they be improved, you bet but I needed to draw the line somewhere and with the introduction of Poser 2012, V4WM, Outfitter and SSS I have reached a point where I am happy with the characters, warts and all.  Now is the time wrench some reneders from the story running through my head.

Do I value V4WM and Outfitter as less important than P2012 because they are free, no!  I would happily have paid for both of them.  I admire the skills of the Poser Place team and their generosity in giving them to the community.   I did not initially post renders of V4WM because most at the time where bending her in ways that were, understandably extreme (or painful/impossible if you are my age).  I did however place a nude render in my gallery, the first and proably the last, just to show how I had converted my characters to V4WM.   I will no doubt be uploading more, fully clothed this time, as I find the outfitter a dream to use.

I am not sure what the take up of V4WM is but just because I am not shouting it from the roof top does not mean I am not having a great deal of fun thanks to a group of un-selfish people.  Many thanks to them all

I stand corrected. The more recent posts have removed some false assumptions I had made about V4-WM's popularity and PP Outfitter's desirability. I can see from those who have posted that whilst some (well, one, really) prefer to stay with the original V4.2, those who can take advantage of P9/PP2012's exciting features are doing so with V4-WM and Outfitter in revamping their inventory and getting spectacular results.

Which is what we anticipated and hoped for.

Thanks to all those who have "made a joyful noise" about these products. No product is perfect, but given the challenges they faced I find what Phantom3D and Cage have been able to achieve has been in a class of its own.

Quote - By"better spent" I meant: the rigger who fought with this impossible mesh could have been working on something that would have advanced his own projects instead of giving of his time and talent to create a re-rigged, weight-mapped figure mod to offer to the community for free, a community who were begging for this figure and now seem apathetic about her. And critiques like yours would have been much more useful during the debugging phase of this project. None of us on the project ever thought to contort V4 into that particular position. I would have never thought that particular pose was so popular or so critical to success.

Have you logged a bug report about this issue at Poser Place?

I didn't and I won't log a "bug report" at Poser Place because people do not usually respond warmly to negative feedback. I do not want to elicit further complaints about ingratitude for all the hard work, etc, etc. Nor do I want my feedback on issues with particular poses to be dismissed again as "contortions."

That she would bend well in extreme poses was one of the features most loudly proclaimed by V4-WM creators. To dismiss a pose as a "contortion" because it doesn't work is exactly what DAZ did when people mentioned issues with the original V4's joints.  What's good for the goose, and all...

Personally, I don't think bending the forearm at 75 degrees is remotely extreme. The neck in the 2nd render is bent a bit more than would probably be possible, but the bulge is still very visible at a less acute angle.  And yes, I do think tilted heads and bent forearms are popular in many poses.

So I'll sum it up: I don't like V4-WM enough to use her. Maybe the lack of marketplace response to her is a result of similar feelings among others who have (very wisely, it seems) remained silent. Maybe the lack of immediate response is for other reasons. I don't think, however, that it's an issue over which one need get unduly emotional.  Poser Place peeps did a fantastic job under a very restrictive set of circumstances and should be commended for it.

Quote - I stand corrected.

I don't think it is a question of anyone being corrected it seems a human trait to complain with ease and very rarely praise or thank anyone.

My excuse this time was that I was too busy converting all of my Vicky's wardrobe to V4WM.  Fast as Outfitter is she has one hell of a wardrobe.

Of course there will never be a figure that everyone will rave about and you could take any silence to mean that no-one is bothered, equally it could mean all the Poser 9/2012 users are too busy playing with V4WM (well all but one), as with most things with life the truth probably lies somewhere between those two extremes.

One thing is sure though, short of anything unforseen, V4WM will have a home in my runtime for a long time to come.

Quote - Thanks to all those who have "made a joyful noise" about these products. No product is perfect, but given the challenges they faced I find what Phantom3D and Cage have been able to achieve has been in a class of its own.

If you wanted praise, why didn't you ask for it directly?  People in these forums have shown an unabashed willingness to offer positive commentary. There have been no lack of threads expounding the virtues of V4-WM.

However, you posed a question that begged for at least some somewhat "negative" speculations.

When you ask, "Why isn't this getting the response I expected?" not everyone is always going to jump in and say, "Oh, but it is!" Someone might actually make the mistake of offering an honest opinion that differs from the accepted "positive" response.

Just as I never critique gallery submissions even when people insist that they want to hear how they may improve, I won't make the mistake of offering such an opinion here in the forums again. LOL.

RobynsVeil, remember Marcus Aurelius! ;)

I'm sure good things are coming, it just takes time.

Quote - > Quote - Thanks to all those who have "made a joyful noise" about these products. No product is perfect, but given the challenges they faced I find what Phantom3D and Cage have been able to achieve has been in a class of its own.

If you wanted praise, why didn't you ask for it directly?  People in these forums have shown an unabashed willingness to offer positive commentary. There have been no lack of threads expounding the virtues of V4-WM.

However, you posed a question that begged for at least some somewhat "negative" speculations.

When you ask, "Why isn't this getting the response I expected?" not everyone is always going to jump in and say, "Oh, but it is!" Someone might actually make the mistake of offering an honest opinion that differs from the accepted "positive" response.

Just as I never critique gallery submissions even when people insist that they want to hear how they may improve, I won't make the mistake of offering such an opinion here in the forums again. LOL.

Being a maverick doesn't make all your critiques correct.  It's good to have honest opinions as you've stated and people who express honest opinions must be able to accept honest replies.  I'm sorry if someone burned you over at Poser Place but you must remember that the Poser Place forums are open and anyone can have a say there.  There is always the chance that someone will say something that ruffles someone elses feathers.  That's pretty much how it is on most forums I would think...

I downloaded V4WM but haven't done anything with her yet, simply because I have so many other shiny new (and old) toys to play with in Poser 2012.

To rachet down the rhetoric just a bit, perhaps I might get back and re-ask one of my original questions:

What is it that people are expecting to see in the way of products for V4-WM. I use her, I like her, and I can't think of a thing that I need for her that the converter has not already provided for her! In my mind, EVERY new V4 product that is released is for V4-WM because all I have to do is a quick convert and the item is good to go.

I guess I'm missing the point of what it is people are expecting the vendors to do differently since they actually don't NEED to do anything differently. They support both V4 and V4WM with every item they release!

$.02

Someone please set me straight.

Well as much as Outfitter does an excellent job of fitting the clothes with a WM rig, it is still an automated process and, just like the setup room or the copy joint zones,  The weightmap is projected onto the clothing mesh by the magic weightmap projecting gnome that lives inside of poser.  In my mind there is nothing automated that cant be done just a bit better by some personal attention from an artist.  I think that level of personal tweaking and polish would be what I would like to see in a vendor supported V4WM product.  I know I have been running items through the setup room for antonia WM and even though they fit well, they are always improved by at least a quick smoothing pass over the maps.  Heck why not, as a vendor, run your completed outfit through outfitter and offer it up 'out of the box' for V4WM as well, maybe a quick tweak to the maps. done.

Quote - To rachet down the rhetoric just a bit, perhaps I might get back and re-ask one of my original questions:

What is it that people are expecting to see in the way of products for V4-WM. I use her, I like her, and I can't think of a thing that I need for her that the converter has not already provided for her! In my mind, EVERY new V4 product that is released is for V4-WM because all I have to do is a quick convert and the item is good to go.

I guess I'm missing the point of what it is people are expecting the vendors to do differently since they actually don't NEED to do anything differently. They support both V4 and V4WM with every item they release!

$.02

Someone please set me straight.

The trick is going to be asking the vendors to learn yet another process: weight mapping. I promise I don't have a clue as to how to do it, even to edit a weightmap. As to having the vendor run the item through the converter, why ask him to do that when it can just as easily be done at the user end and not inflict (yet more) code bloat into downloads.

I guess my own issue here is, I've never converted an item that didn't actually fit V4WM BETTER than the original fit V4. But that's just been my experience.

OK, I've only read the 1st few posts here. At the risk of whatever, these are just the points that a few of were trying to make some time ago about communication, marketing etc. I vaguely recall that our questions and suggestions were to some degree perceived as nay-saying, discouraging, whatever. To reiterate, you can't create something, no matter how superior it may be and expect it to succeed based on it's qualities or perceived miscues by competitors. The history, market, challenges, opportunities etc. were all pretty well hashed out in that discussion. Maybe there are one or two points there that might bear more consideration - I don't know.

The equation may have changed somewhat with the free DS4 factor, but I think the position of NextGen Poser figure is still open. It's going to take work though. That is especially true in a market that has had an established order for so long and has many consumers who may not be automatically impressed with what seems so obviously compelling to others. Assuming otherwise is the road to Betamax. I still maintain that SmithMicro itself is ultimately the only entity that can really promote the advances of Poser in the form of a new figure, but I won't flog that horse again. I wish you well in your efforts.

Quote - The weightmap is projected onto the clothing mesh by the magic weightmap projecting gnome that lives inside of poser.

I know it's sidetracking a bit here, but can I just say that I wish we could've gotten this into the Outfitter manual?  :lol:

TBH to tweak a transfered weightmap takes about as much skill as using the morph brush.  Basically push, pull and smooth except that it pushes and pulls along the direction of the bend rather than against the surface or in relation to the screen.

I dont know.. to me it would be sad if a vendor 'just couldnt be bothered to learn' a simple process that could make their work better.  But perhaps thats just my artist side speaking.  I guess it isn't necessarily fair hold others to the standard that I would like to work to

Quote - The trick is going to be asking the vendors to learn yet another process: weight mapping. I promise I don't have a clue as to how to do it, even to edit a weightmap. As to having the vendor run the item through the converter, why ask him to do that when it can just as easily be done at the user end and not inflict (yet more) code bloat into downloads.

I guess my own issue here is, I've never converted an item that didn't actually fit V4WM BETTER than the original fit V4. But that's just been my experience.

Quote - > Quote - The weightmap is projected onto the clothing mesh by the magic weightmap projecting gnome that lives inside of poser.

I know it's sidetracking a bit here, but can I just say that I wish we could've gotten this into the Outfitter manual?  :lol:

lol I was paraphrasing from my understanding of the python speak you and david sometimes slip into

Poser's weight-mapping tools are fairly easy to learn and it isn't too hard to improve upon mapping that has already been generated for a figure.  It seems to be a bit more difficult to start from scratch, generating a good set of weights for a base figure -- particularly if that base mesh is not well-suited to good weight-mapping results.  I've found Antonia to be a good figure with which to learn how to use the tools, myself.  I'd like to think that the Outfitter could be used as a good starting point to make it easier for a content creator to develop more refined weights.

But creating weight mapped joints can be more laborious than simply adjusting the traditional Poser zone-based joints.  Still, I think it is easier than trying to create JCMs to fix any shortcomings of those zone joints.  I think more people will start using these tools, over time.  Weight-mapping is the future for Poser, as well as DAZ|Studio.  It may not happen overnight, but content creators will begin to use these new tools and options more and more as time goes by.

Unfortunately I don't think expertise in weight mapping will provide the wanted edge. V4-WM is good enough for all practical uses. But this is a beauty contest, pure and simply.

First of all I need to resond to this comment:-

I didn't and I won't log a "bug report" at Poser Place because people do not usually respond warmly to negative feedback. I do not want to elicit further complaints about ingratitude for all the hard work, etc, etc. Nor do I want my feedback on issues with particular poses to be dismissed again as "contortions."

NEVER worry about postig a bug report at PP, we take everything onboard and try to improve problems found by users. If people don't tell us, then we can't solve the problem. Sometimes it is very esy to solve, other times it takes a little longer.

But the main thing is to tel us.

Now on to support, like anything else it takes vendors a little while to start supporting anything new. Most had projects underway when V4WM came out and they won't drop those to start supporting something new.

The thing is as well, those of us that make freebies etc. can model the items for basic V4 and then just use the Outfitter to convert to V4WM. That way you can support BOTH figures.

Support comes from all sides, PP has provided the way to do things, it is up to others to continue that process.

All the best.

LROG

But this is a beauty contest, pure and simply.

For V4WM it is useability, not just a pretty face. Someting may look beautiful, but if it cannot be used due to bad rigging etc. then people will not use it.

All the best.

LROG

Quote - The trick is going to be asking the vendors to learn yet another process: weight mapping. I promise I don't have a clue as to how to do it, even to edit a weightmap. As to having the vendor run the item through the converter, why ask him to do that when it can just as easily be done at the user end and not inflict (yet more) code bloat into downloads. I guess my own issue here is, I've never converted an item that didn't actually fit V4WM BETTER than the original fit V4. But that's just been my experience.

I guess I'm try to see this from a vendor's view of improving the product's marketability. Giving an example: Danae and her Dublin figure that takes advantage of SSS in the new Poser. This is a vendor acknowledging new technology and how rendering figures with that technology give improved results.

What I'm hoping to see is new clothing for V4 with V4-WM options. True, Outfitter is an end-user product but why can't it also be a means to improve marketability of an item for the vendor? It's not a laborious task: takes a minute or less. Who knows - just guessing here - eventually people who have upgraded to P9/PP2012 will/may be looking for this feature: it says "I've got a Poser 9 / PP 2012 ready version of my product."

Just sayin'...

Well Crossdresser have added a license for V4WM which extends the Vicky's wardrobe even further, that can only help the take up.

Good point, Hornet3D. Just got the notification myself.

I really hate to flog a dead horse until it's unrecognisable, but I feel it's important to add to a few comments already posted then go back into the shadows where I belong. I don't have P9 0r PP2012 yet, so I can't use V4WM. I do check the V4WM thread here quite often to see whats going on and if anything new is happening. I don't check the gallery's for images because I simply don't have time to do so. Occasionally I check the Forums at RDNA, but again time is limited.

Honestly for any "new revolutionary figure for Poser" to be highly successful it needs to be marketed, marketed well, then marketed some more. V4WM started off with a bang, lots of chatter in the forums, several images posted in the forums, then within a couple of weeks things slowed down alot, and now they are pretty dead except for idle chatter and an occasional newb question. Visibility of, and excitement over V4WM has dropped off to almost nothing (unfortuantately the same is true for Antonia, and Anastasia is getting iffy now too).

This isn't a new phenomenon, it's happened time and time again in the Poserverse. The problem is the creators feel it is such a fantastic product that if "they build it they will come". Often the creators have promoted an item quite a bit (Apollo comes to mind), but they didn't have their product everywhere you looked, with ample vendor/3rd party support at muliple stores.

From what I've read, the Outfitter will convert standard V4 items to V4WM with ease, so the available content everywhere issue is "sort of" taken care of already. For those who are a bit more technical oriented, they are good to go, and have everything they need to jump on board and be happy with V4WM. But for the masses, it's seeing and hearing over and over how great this is, and how easy it is to use, and seeing the results (over and over).  It's the "oooohhhh ... shiney" factor coupled with "keeping up with the Jonses", and proof that "it really is so easy anyone can, and has, to do it".

For the vendors, it comes down to their bottom line. Even if it is fairly easy, as many have indicated in this thread, is it worth the effort it to support another format? From what they all say, there needs to be a lot of people out there wanting products for a given figure to even cover the cost of development. Vendors here have to support their own products, so they have to ask themselves will any possible additional sales from supporting V4WM offest the additional support costs (time) needed for new users. If it looks like there will be a huge  market for a figure when it is released, vendors will jump on board immediately!! But, if the market is unknown, they will simply watch an wait to see what happens. If the few vendors that provide content immediately continue to make more content, and a few new vendors do the same, then you will see a lot of vendors creating stuff for the figure. But few have the resources to put a huge investment into making content for a figure at a loss for several months, to maybe even a year or more.

I think V4WM has the best chance of any of the "new" figures to become a very popular figure, simply because there is a lot of content that can be used with what appears to be relatively minimal effort on the part of the user. But, and this is a BIG but, it seems like most Poser users like things simple, so to get them to use Outfitter, someone needs to really market V4WM and Outfitter. Show how simple it is to use and how great the results are. Do this everywhere in the Poserverse (not just here and at RDNA), put video tutorials on YouTube, get obvious V4WM images in every major gallery out there - continually for at least 6 months, and V4WM might just rise to her potential!!!

Also, moriador made some very valid observations. The team that developed V4WM deserves a lot praise and cudos, as I'm sure that countless hours went into V4WM (thanks for your efforts even though I can't use her yet). But, the joints obviously do need some additional work, if it's possible to even fix the elbo issue (darn, after seeing it, unlees it's fixed, I'll never be able to show bent arms from the side). I think the dev team also needs to decide if they will continue to fix issues as they are pointed out, or if V4WM is "finished" in their eyes. If she is considered "finished" then broad acceptance and use ma be a bit more difficult to achieve. If they plan on fixing issues as they are pointed out, they need to make it very obvious that they want people to contribute, so they can make V4WM better.

On another more OT note, I think basicwiz made a very valid point about Antonia needing a very good set of standardized morphs. I don't want to bruse any feelings because I know a lot of time, effort, care, and even love went into her creation. But, for many people she is just ..... ummm  ..... cute? She is the very very average girl next door type, which is OK, but she doesn't come with a full set of morphs that will take her to the next V Chick status. The morph set at RDNA is very good, but she really needs a standard morph set in the same price range as she is (free?) that can make her a "drop dead gogeous got to have her" figure (or a virtual barbie), with characters sets readily available that use the proper morph combinations to make her a must have figure. She also needs a comprehensive set of clothing. A few normal things, and some "slut wear", as everyone typically refers to it. This also needs to be free, or a very very modest price. Now you have the base package to create some real buzz beyond the tech/practical use portion of the market.

I see it all the time, "Why doesn't somebody create more praticle cloths for figure X?". It's simple, they make what sells!! If you want to "sell" Antonia to the greater Poserverse, and not the select few that want a very simple girl next door type, you need to package her in a way that sells. She needs to be marketed like she is a commercial product, or she will quickly be forgotten. She needs to have a standard set of "make me your dream girl" morphs that vendors can support (or if the current set at RDNA can do this, there needs to be some characters developed from it that make it the defacto standard), or she will soon be forgotten. She is a great figure, and I would hate to she her end up among the ranks of great figures that were never used. But, without a good marketing plan, a good set of standard morphs, and some, as you say, "barbie" characters, she most likely will fade into the background.

I honestly hope I didn't offend anyone with my post/rant here. It's just that I've seen potential in these new figures, and I'm afraid they will end up lost and forgotten if they can't be truely marketed. I know this is asking a lot from their makers, since they have already invested so much in them. But I'm affraid in our society, that "build it and they will come" just won't work for alternate Poser figures. They need to be promoted a lot more than they have been, they need to be "ooooooo ...Shiney!!!".

Your points are all valid and important to note, as are Moriador's and BasicWiz's.

Unfortunately, I'm a nurse. I don't know marketing. Wish I did: I'd be busy doing that, because i agree... that is essentially what is lacking here.

If an enthusiast of Poser Place products with marketing skills were to step to the plate with ideas and strategies, this person would be welcomed with open arms.

Quote - I really hate to flog a dead horse until it's unrecognisable, but I feel it's important to add to a few comments already posted then go back into the shadows where I belong. I don't have P9 0r PP2012 yet, so I can't use V4WM. I do check the V4WM thread here quite often to see whats going on and if anything new is happening. I don't check the gallery's for images because I simply don't have time to do so. Occasionally I check the Forums at RDNA, but again time is limited.

Honestly for any "new revolutionary figure for Poser" to be highly successful it needs to be marketed, marketed well, then marketed some more. V4WM started off with a bang, lots of chatter in the forums, several images posted in the forums, then within a couple of weeks things slowed down alot, and now they are pretty dead except for idle chatter and an occasional newb question. Visibility of, and excitement over V4WM has dropped off to almost nothing (unfortuantately the same is true for Antonia, and Anastasia is getting iffy now too).

This isn't a new phenomenon, it's happened time and time again in the Poserverse. The problem is the creators feel it is such a fantastic product that if "they build it they will come". Often the creators have promoted an item quite a bit (Apollo comes to mind), but they didn't have their product everywhere you looked, with ample vendor/3rd party support at muliple stores.

From what I've read, the Outfitter will convert standard V4 items to V4WM with ease, so the available content everywhere issue is "sort of" taken care of already. For those who are a bit more technical oriented, they are good to go, and have everything they need to jump on board and be happy with V4WM. But for the masses, it's seeing and hearing over and over how great this is, and how easy it is to use, and seeing the results (over and over).  It's the "oooohhhh ... shiney" factor coupled with "keeping up with the Jonses", and proof that "it really is so easy anyone can, and has, to do it".

For the vendors, it comes down to their bottom line. Even if it is fairly easy, as many have indicated in this thread, is it worth the effort it to support another format? From what they all say, there needs to be a lot of people out there wanting products for a given figure to even cover the cost of development. Vendors here have to support their own products, so they have to ask themselves will any possible additional sales from supporting V4WM offest the additional support costs (time) needed for new users. If it looks like there will be a huge  market for a figure when it is released, vendors will jump on board immediately!! But, if the market is unknown, they will simply watch an wait to see what happens. If the few vendors that provide content immediately continue to make more content, and a few new vendors do the same, then you will see a lot of vendors creating stuff for the figure. But few have the resources to put a huge investment into making content for a figure at a loss for several months, to maybe even a year or more.

I think V4WM has the best chance of any of the "new" figures to become a very popular figure, simply because there is a lot of content that can be used with what appears to be relatively minimal effort on the part of the user. But, and this is a BIG but, it seems like most Poser users like things simple, so to get them to use Outfitter, someone needs to really market V4WM and Outfitter. Show how simple it is to use and how great the results are. Do this everywhere in the Poserverse (not just here and at RDNA), put video tutorials on YouTube, get obvious V4WM images in every major gallery out there - continually for at least 6 months, and V4WM might just rise to her potential!!!

Also, moriador made some very valid observations. The team that developed V4WM deserves a lot praise and cudos, as I'm sure that countless hours went into V4WM (thanks for your efforts even though I can't use her yet). But, the joints obviously do need some additional work, if it's possible to even fix the elbo issue (darn, after seeing it, unlees it's fixed, I'll never be able to show bent arms from the side). I think the dev team also needs to decide if they will continue to fix issues as they are pointed out, or if V4WM is "finished" in their eyes. If she is considered "finished" then broad acceptance and use ma be a bit more difficult to achieve. If they plan on fixing issues as they are pointed out, they need to make it very obvious that they want people to contribute, so they can make V4WM better.

On another more OT note, I think basicwiz made a very valid point about Antonia needing a very good set of standardized morphs. I don't want to bruse any feelings because I know a lot of time, effort, care, and even love went into her creation. But, for many people she is just ..... ummm  ..... cute? She is the very very average girl next door type, which is OK, but she doesn't come with a full set of morphs that will take her to the next V Chick status. The morph set at RDNA is very good, but she really needs a standard morph set in the same price range as she is (free?) that can make her a "drop dead gogeous got to have her" figure (or a virtual barbie), with characters sets readily available that use the proper morph combinations to make her a must have figure. She also needs a comprehensive set of clothing. A few normal things, and some "slut wear", as everyone typically refers to it. This also needs to be free, or a very very modest price. Now you have the base package to create some real buzz beyond the tech/practical use portion of the market.

I see it all the time, "Why doesn't somebody create more praticle cloths for figure X?". It's simple, they make what sells!! If you want to "sell" Antonia to the greater Poserverse, and not the select few that want a very simple girl next door type, you need to package her in a way that sells. She needs to be marketed like she is a commercial product, or she will quickly be forgotten. She needs to have a standard set of "make me your dream girl" morphs that vendors can support (or if the current set at RDNA can do this, there needs to be some characters developed from it that make it the defacto standard), or she will soon be forgotten. She is a great figure, and I would hate to she her end up among the ranks of great figures that were never used. But, without a good marketing plan, a good set of standard morphs, and some, as you say, "barbie" characters, she most likely will fade into the background.

I honestly hope I didn't offend anyone with my post/rant here. It's just that I've seen potential in these new figures, and I'm afraid they will end up lost and forgotten if they can't be truely marketed. I know this is asking a lot from their makers, since they have already invested so much in them. But I'm affraid in our society, that "build it and they will come" just won't work for alternate Poser figures. They need to be promoted a lot more than they have been, they need to be "ooooooo ...Shiney!!!".

And, I will add to this that the VERY reason V4 is so popular is that she has been marketed by the best. 

In this very thread, it's been pointed out that she is not the best mesh.  Yet, there she is at the top of the heap.  Why?

Marketing. 

And, I will add to this that the VERY reason V4 is so popular is that she has been marketed by the best. 

In this very thread, it's been pointed out that she is not the best mesh.  Yet, there she is at the top of the heap.  Why?

Marketing. 

Well one factor could be the fact that, from the galleries at least, a large number of people use Vicky in her naked form and I wonder just how many viewers look at such renders and think "her arms don't look quite right".

If you are using Poser for commercial use then I accept that Vicky may have a poor mesh but most users are hobbiests and, having spent lots on the wardrobe, are happy to use her warts and all.   I'm not sure that any new figure is going to have an easy ride no matter how strong the marketing.  Many people stated that they were not interested in DS4 becuase of the time that they would need to spend to learn a new program let alone the expense equipping the software with all the goodies required.  To a large degree any new figure would have the same problem. 

Having developed characters based on V4 that meet my needs it would take something very different for me to start all over again no matter how good the marketing.  V4WM, Outfitter and SSS in Poser 2012 allow me to enhance what I have without throwing away the time I have spent so far, while new figure is also a whole new ball game.

As to vendors for V4WM well they really don't have to do anything different, if the clothes are different or high quality I will happily buy them and spend the few minutes it takes to run outfitter to convert to V4WM, not sure what else is needed.

Marketing, what a lot of trash. To blame marketing is just a poor excuse. Don't people read Ralph Waldo Emerson anymore?

"Build a better mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your door"

If marketing was all there is to it there are no shortage of companies with lots of cash but it doesn't work, Sorry.

Now the first half of the work is done, and in an excellent way. Now we only need artists to make a wonderful morph set that turn her into the most incredible beautiful human being on earth, and not only beautiful but cute too..

And flaws are no surprise but please keep your sense of proportions. For each imperfection in V4 WM I can find ten more serious faults in any other figure, Genesis not excluded. Perfection is the enemy of progress.

Edit: Its good to remember that not even max or Maya and even Houdini (from $7500 and up) can do what Poser can do.

Quote - Marketing, what a lot of trash. To blame marketing is just a poor excuse. Don't people read Ralph Waldo Emerson anymore?

"Build a better mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your door"

If marketing was all there is to it there are no shortage of companies with lots of cash but it doesn't work, Sorry.

Now the first half of the work is done, and in an excellent way. Now we only need artists to make a wonderful morph set that turn her into the most incredible beautiful human being on earth, and not only beautiful but cute too..

LOL, good luck with that.

And, I do believe THAT was the purpose of this thread....to ask why no artists were going to "make a wonderful morph set that turn her...."

BTW, it's the Poser Place crew who are calling V4 flawed.

Quote - Edit: Its good to remember that not even max or Maya and even Houdini (from $7500 and up) can do what Poser can do.

Sorry, don't want to go off topic here but........???

What can Poser do that they can't???

"What can Poser do that they can't???"

As you say I don't want to get off topic but what max and Maya can't do will easily fill a book of thousand pages. We take that discussion another time. You can prepare yourself by downloading the new zBrush that was released today.