Never mind. I was curious because I also had this morph set somewhere and wondering whether I could still use it, so I needed to find this out anyway. Your question came just in time and I just happened to stumble upon your own ShareCG query.  

Starting all over again is the best you can do. My own Antonia runtime is jammed with half-finished crap. 

At Poserplace lkendall is keeping a track of available Antonia stuff. http://poserplace.phantom3d.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=37. Note you have to register (free) to read it. 

Good luck. 

Quote -
So quiet here! I wonder where everyone has gone?

Cool animation, Les!

I still lurk in here a lot. I've been quite busy putting the finishing touches on a new release for Antonia. I figure a year and a half between releases is time enough LOL. It would have been out closer to Christmas had a hard drive crash not happened :( Nothing screams orgasmic like having to create the same skin texture TWICE!! woo-hoo!

HINT: a new character and skimpy clothing will be involved. ;)

Any thoughts of using displacement to add detail?  I'm quite interested in that option though I lack the tools (and skills) to try it myself

Quote - I'm enjoying working with Antonia WM. I definitely like the way she bends, for the most part. 

She could definitely use some more geometry. Her low resolution and lack of edge flow for muscular detail really limits how much detail a character sculpt for her can have.

I haven't read through this entire thread so I don't know if it's been discussed as to why her mesh is so simplistic, but 38K polys and no definining edge flow in the abdomen, arms and legs is a drawback. Considering there are hair models alone that have over 30K polys, is there a reason she's so low?

That, and the unusual default pose of the base mesh makes it a bit more difficult to get things accurate.

Still, I'm working on a character sculpt for her and it's not turning out too bad so far. It would be nice if I could sculpt in more detail, but I'm working with what is there.  

Displacement is bad for any detail that needs to affect other things or be adjustable.  So detail on muscles is fine, but actual muscles doesn't work so well.  Details in the hands are fine, but shaping elbows not so much.  Ribs, which you can't do so much with on Antonia because the polys aren't there, really need to be in the mesh.  If clothing should morph or sim to follow the body and if users should be able to dial this much of the adjustment and combine it with that much of another adjustment, it's no good.  Displacement is only functionally good for something you either use or don't and doesn't need to affect anything but the mesh its made for.

That all said, I'm only talking about content you distribute or reuse.  If you're just making an image for yourself, then it doesn't matter.  The sky's the limit, and the only considerations are that you need 16 bit displacement for some extreme or detailed displacement, it only works with the normal, not a specific direction (you can't make something expand along one x  but not y if the topology doesn't match your goal), and it doesn't allow you to make a separate mesh.

I'm not sure how feasible the idea would be, but IIRC an animated shader will have a parameter dial available for use in the Pose Room.  Theoretically such dials could be used to animate a series of displacement maps to vary muscle detailing in different areas as a figure is posed, using standard ERC or Dependent Parameters.  Any parameter dial should be able to be linked to ERC controls.

Which still wouldn't address the fact that displacement detailing can't address all needs as well as one might like.  :sad:

Displacement amount can be animated and dials added, but that doesn't do anything for combining displacement maps at all.  It's possible to combine maps by hand and then animate the blending amount and then rename the dial (automatic naming is pretty bad), but that's something individuals would have to do themselves and wouldn't be very distributable.  That is, I could distribute my .cr2 with all of these hacks, but that wouldn't do anything for a third party wanting to use my displacement maps with yours.  So not extensible, which is extremely limiting when it comes to basic morphing properties.   And, testing, I'm finding material dials behavior to be spotty at best.  I just dialed it up then did an undo, and the material didn't respond at first.  Clicking on the amount made it revert to the right amount but the preview is still wrong.  It seems like the relationships among the dial, the shader, and the preview aren't exactly stable.

Sounds like that idea won't work so well, then.  :sad:  Oh, well.  It would be nice to be able to have some additional muscle detail for Antonia.

It would, but it just wasn't built in from the start.  That's just kind of necessary for morphing.   It's not just a polycount issue, but a topology one.  Even if you subdivide her, I'm not sure you're going to have the polys for making proper ribs, let alone the small muscles on the ribs.

I know worrying about polycount is popular these days, but I find that kind of ludicrous considering how many people want eye textures that are over 2000 x 2000, a size I've literally never seen eyes actually rendered at.  Textures have to be uncompressed to render.  I never, not even on my previous and quite old box, was unable to render a scene due to polycount.  But I still have Poser tell me it's run out of resources for textures, and I now have more RAM than I know what to do with.  

This is basically a limitation to Antonia that can't be gotten around without signifcant complications that will put her usability right back where it was before the revamp.  But I think that's OK, really.  How much artwork is made with extremely muscular or defined women?  Very little, from what I've seen in everything from sculpture to charcoal to line art to oils to 2d and 3d artwork.  As it is, Antonia can do tons of different looks, just not ones that are extremely defined in the body.  I've actually found her face easier to give detail to than V4's.  

I love diversity, but I don't need every figure to be everything for me.  In fact, that's been my problem with the dominance of the Vicky figures.  What they do well, they do well, but what they don't, they really suck at.  I don't need Antonia to be absolutely everything.  I just need her to be excellent at the things that other figures are not.   I'm still looking forward to new figures with an equal amount of realism that have different features.    All I wish is that there was a single UV mapping and region naming convention.  Between that and dynamic clothes it would be relatively trivial to switch to new figures.

You make excellent point, KobaltKween, particularly in the light of how many new (and revamped older) figures we're seeing in the Poser landscape. The entire idea of one figure needing to satisfy all needs is ludicrous when you consider the diversity of artist needs, the level of detail they are trying to attain, and the sorts of tools they are invoking outside Poser to achieve this detail. No one mesh is going to deal perfectly with everyone's needs, unless you're making gargoyles, in which case close enough is good enough.

Those who promote a one-mesh solution invariably produce gargoyles/trolls/something-without-reference-in-the-real-world as their proof of concept. Which Isn't particularly convincing to me, since I don't personally know any trolls or gargoyles that I can use as reference.

Diverse figures for diverse goals. And dynamic cloth to clothe them all.

Quote - ... 

Diverse figures for diverse goals. And dynamic cloth to clothe them all.

Agreed 1000%!

Cloth room to be brushed-up and extended to model structural hardware stuff (rings, chains) and to include real flexibility, stretch in zero condition, etc.  

I want to thank ODF for creating such wonderful figure and giving it to both Poser and DAZ Studio users for free. I think the best way to give thanks is to give any modification I've made to the community. The weight mapped version for Poser 9/Poser Pro 2012 is not compatible with DAZ Studio 4. Therefore, I tried to make a conversion. I have to admit that my initial attempt based on the Antonia WM is a failure. This time, I tried to use the Antonia Standard. I hope it will be better than the previous one.

I just uploaded the Antonia for DS4, which is based on the Antonia Standard. It can be downloaded from http://www.sharecg.com/v/60927/browse/21/DAZ-Studio/Antonia-for-DS4.

I'm working on making some clothing for it to see if it is easier to make clothing for it than the standard version. At this moment, I'm using just the OBJ of the old clothing I made for Antonia 1.2 and rigging it for Antonia for DS4. Antonia for DS4 works in DAZ Studio 4 only. As I know, it can be converted into Poser 9 easily but I need someone to help me to test it because I don't have Poser. If you are a Poser user and want to bridge the gap between the Poser and DAZ Studio, and you have time to test it, please contact me. I will be happy to convert it and post the Poser 9 version.

Thanks!!

Thank You

Well done Amy! Thank you.

If you can tell me what kind of tests you need done, I have Pro 2012 now . . .

Quote - If you can tell me what kind of tests you need done, I have Pro 2012 now . . .

Thank you for helping.  I just want to check if the converted version will pose properly in Poser 9/Poser Pro 2012.  If it works, it can use the poses for Antonia Standard, and the result should be very close to Antonia Standard too.

The converted AntoniaDS4 for Poser 9 can be downloaded at the following link.

https://sites.google.com/site/amyaimei/antonia/AntoniaDS4P9.zip?attredirects=0&d=1

I'll see what I can do.  I've been somewhat unreliable lately; is there a deadline I should try to meet?

Quote - I'll see what I can do.  I've been somewhat unreliable lately; is there a deadline I should try to meet?

Thalek, there is no deadline.  It is not a business project.  :)  I can't tell when I'll have something new for Antonia too.

I am alive as well - still But since some weeks I am working on a commercial project I have got and it's quite natural that this comes first.

But as you see I am catching up with this thread from time to time.  I want to say thank you to you amy_aimei, that you took the time to make Antonia available to DS users. Maybe you can add her to the freebie site as well once you think that she is ready to use? So we have all the basic things together and a DS-ready Antonia is something I would REALLY called basic!

About the "more poly" thing: Somehow I saw this coming when we started to work together... :sneaky: The problem is that there seems to be always only one fraction speaking it's opinion... and I remember well that there where several voices saying that Antonia is far too high-poly. Too bad...

Yes, and people always say the popularity of V4 is due to the DAZ hype and people being used to supporting buying DAZ etc.  I don't believe that.  I still think it is the quality of the model that in the end will determine how popular it is.  A model that has what people want will be popular.  Unfortunately Antonia lacks the polys for replacing a vickie for me.  I checked her out.  She was nice but not a vickie alternative.

Love esther

As said: The problem is that there are two kind of people. The "every 3d-figure is too polygon heavy" and the "I want LOTS of polys" - unfortunatly you can't please them all. At least we have the "mid-poly" Antonia (and people complaining that I made all my poses for her and not for the low-res one... sigh).

What amazes me is that the pretty poly-savy Antonia bends far better than any DAZ figure (until Genesis) I had so far. So I am under the impression that V4 and the older generation have a fine topology but a questionable rigging.

Sheeesh, I missed a lot of postings in this thread!

Been busy with retail stuff and family doings so I've not kept up on the forums like I used to do.

@SF: Missed seeing your posts and wondered how you are doing.

@odf:I'm sure whatever you make for Antonia will be great but I agree, some more expression morphs please. :)

@lesbentley: I gotta go check those earrings out.

I'm still working on textures for Antonia and face morphs as well. At present I use the morph brush to get the face morphs but I'm hoping to take time to learn Hexagon and Blender for the morphs.

which antonia is the medium poly one?  Is it the weightmapped one or are their two types of weightmapped antonias?  Maybe I missed something.

I have noticed that the vocal low poly people are also the "we love possette" people.  But looking at the rendero marketplace and the gallery I think most people here are we love vickies.

I still think most people fit into the more poly people who would rather buy a new computer than have not enough muscle definition and back definition.

Love esther

Waves to BlueEcho with both hands! Hello again!!

What I call the medium-poly Antonia is the standard one everyone uses. Because I agree, there is no high-poly version.

The problem with the what I call the "standard user" is that he belongs to the silent majority. I would so much wish that this majority speaks it's opinion when it comes to new figures and tools so that people get what they desires.

Just type V4 and polygons and you see what I mean. There are countless people who do not want such poly-heavy figures and that don't use it. These speak up and so they get what they desire, sooner or later. The galleries that accompany the stores are not a benchmark for what people want because not all people use 3d for fun, some do not post their works because they are either not allowed to (commercial artwork, advertising) or because they simply do not want their art being stolen. I found that many people buy my products and never show up somewhere - until they write me because of a question about a product and then I see that they are professional users who do book illustrations, advertising and so on.

But as said: This thread started four years ago and contains 393 sites. Many features people ask for now where discussed before and dropped because either no one said "I want it" or because people said "we want something else". There are, for instance, complaints about the mapping - and we discussed about it for weeks. No one beside the "hard core" showed up and said: I prefer this and that. Back then I felt frustrated about the lack of interest - now I know why.

Don't get me wrong: This has nothing to do with you, Esther. It has nothing to do with anybody who takes the time to follow this thread and speak up. It's frustration about the silent majority who takes, tests and says "Bah - thisandthat is not included." - and forgetting that this is a free community project that needs participation at least as a viewer and critiquer.

"

The problem with the what I call the "standard user" is that he belongs to the silent majority. I would so much wish that this majority speaks it's opinion when it comes to new figures and tools so that people get what they desires."

I don't think they are silent, I think they talk through their renders. I think the standard user is reflected by what is in the galleries and marketplace.

Well some will argue that the marketplace creates the galleries but I disagree.

And to prove my point I have a prediction.  I predict that tate's new figure Michelle which is supposedly being released this spring, will be immensely popular, and be the first non-daz 3d figure to really take off.

Lets see if I am right.

Love esther

PS do I get a prize like a high poly antonia with morphs if I am correct?

Quote - PS do I get a prize like a high poly antonia with morphs if I am correct?

As I said earlier, a high-poly Antonia with morphs is (relatively) easy. I modelled Antonia with less than 10k polygons, then subdivided once to make her look smoother in Poser. All morphs were created for the low-res (10k poly) version, then subdivided. Adding another level of subdivision would be completely doable, particularly if I'd only support the weight-mapped version (JCMs are a pain to get onto the figure, and need to be done separately for each resolution). With my current software, it would take a lot of CPU time and memory, but if there was a little money in it, I could either write better software or rent computing power from Amazon and friends.

What people apparently want, though, is more resolution at just the right spots, while retaining the existing morphs. That's going to be, umm, tricky. Interesting problem, but none I've got the time to dive into. Maybe someone else will, but I'm not holding my breath.

So what remains, as far as I am concerned, is hoping that creators of future figures will look around at what's available now and, among others, take some lessons from Antonia, both her strengths and her weaknesses. Since she's open source, it might be as easy as just taking the existing mesh and tweaking it to allow for more detail in the regions that are lacking, then create some new morphs. The weight-mapped rigging would still work, but the existing morphs and JCMs most likely wouldn't.

I think that the marketplaces all together create what's in the galleries. Just think about new releases by very popular merchants: Suddenly the galleries are full with the hottest product in town - until the next must-have is released. The standard user is not the one who visits forums frequently IMHO - what is a pity because his or her opinion counts.

Michelle looks interesting, I'll wait and see. After the Eva-desaster it would be nice to see a new figure that stays in the marketplace. Hopefully a render with a more "stressful" pose is posted soon!

And about the high poly Antonia: Maybe, if you ask, someone is willing to take the challenge?! Who knows?! I would be interested as well (although she works very fine for me so far).

Yes, a lot of people think that the galleries are completely influenced by what is in the MP.  I think it is more that certain vendors are popular because they have good products.

Quote:-

So what remains, as far as I am concerned, is hoping that creators of future figures will look around at what's available now and, among others, take some lessons from Antonia, both her strengths and her weaknesses. 

Yes, this is my hope too.

I sincerely hope that nothing like eve ever happens again.  That was a very sad and disgusting affair.

Anyway it is all very exciting to have new figures and pending new figures that we can discuss like this.  The more the merrier I say.

Love esther

I sincerely hope that nothing like eve ever happens again.  That was a very sad and disgusting affair.

It happened before and will happen again because there are always people that like easy money. Sad, I know. Things like this lead me to a strange behaviour: Waiting until the first screenshot of the mesh is posted and then decide wether or not to get the new "doll". Since odf (Hi!! Nice to see you!! How are things going for you?!) made Antonia I know that you can't draw them out of the hat like a wizzard does it with a rabbit*.* This has nothing to do with the upcoming Michelle - it was meant the other way: I deign RDNA a squeaky clean and shiny new stand-alone figure!*

Quote - I sincerely hope that nothing like eve ever happens again.  That was a very sad and disgusting affair.

It happened before and will happen again because there are always people that like easy money. Sad, I know. Things like this lead me to a strange behaviour: Waiting until the first screenshot of the mesh is posted and then decide wether or not to get the new "doll". Since odf (Hi!! Nice to see you!! How are things going for you?!) made Antonia I know that you can't draw them out of the hat like a wizzard does it with a rabbit*.* This has nothing to do with the upcoming Michelle - it was meant the other way: I deign RDNA a squeaky clean and shiny new stand-alone figure!*

Hi Saintfox! waves

Things are going well here. Have I mentioned that I moved to Melbourne and quit my job? I probably have. I'm mostly doing volume image processing in C++ these days, which is a half-time job in theory, but I've lost some momentum due to the move and other distractions. I'm waiting for another long-term client to get a contract organised, which should put me in a pretty comfortable position financially. More importantly though, work is fun again.

I'll be in Europe for the first three weeks of May, first at a conference in England, then mostly hanging out with my mother and other relatives, I guess. It will be nice to spend some time in properly built houses with adequate heating, not to mention the beer and other earthly delights. :-)

Back on topic: I had a brief look at some Michelle renders, and she looks really good. Less doll-like than V4 and friends, but still close enough to the supermodel shape that most people seem to prefer. Hopefully, she has a good mesh and decent rigging.

...and if someone desires a more avarage look there will be morphs or morphing software!

I am glad to hear that you are doing fine! And yes, you mentioned that you moved to Melbourne. Must be a nice city if you feel good without a properly built roof above your head snickers And what I really understand is that you miss the beer! "Flens", if I remember right?!

I'm a dark Hefeweizen man, actually. :-)

Quote - I am under the impression that V4 and the older generation have a fine topology but a questionable rigging.

I don't have the advantage of weight mapping available to me, so I have to agree. Antonia more than holds her own compared to commercial figures, for me; in fact if I know I'll require a challenging pose in a scene, then Antonia is my go-to gal.

I don't feel the lack of polygons either. I used to use V3 RR most of the time, and wish there was an equivalent reduced resolution V4 etc.

Maybe in an open source project such as this, there's more time and effort available to spend on refining the rigging and other aspects that might otherwise be subject to commercial restraints.

But Englsihbob, do you feel you can get an adequately muscled and toned athletic antonia?

Love esther

Different people will always have different requirements. I wasn't trying to suggest that everyone should be happy with Antonia's poly count just because I am - but SaintFox seemed to be saying that the high-poly advocates had been in the majority recently, so I thought I'd weigh in on the other side.

Despite appearances, I'm not trying to start an argument, especially since I have no interest in 'winning'. (Since when was it ever possible to win an argument on the Internet, anyway?)

But to answer your question, I'm happy with Antonia's tone - so I suppose yes, I can get an adequately muscled and toned Antonia. For what I want to do. ;) 

Okay.

well there are definitely people who like low poly figures. No doubt about that. But not as many renders in the galleries of these, for various reasons.

Love esther

I think the possibilities of low-poly figures are vastly under-estimated. 

And for the rest: it is not the kit that mattrs, it is what you do with it.  

You've understood right, EnglishBob, there seems to be a growing interest in higher poly-version. But this is pretty common, V4 went through the opposite discussion and so did her older "sisters".

So far I only had to fix the chin or the elbow so far and from the renders I've made I couldn't tell Antonia's polycount (that I really do not remember at the moment).

odf: dark wheat beer... looks like a mix of me and Leo ;o) I prefer Kellerbier and likewise (Ducksteiner, Detmolder Landbier etc.) , Leo Kristallweizen.  if you pour this together you get at leas the look. But seriously: there's no wheat beer availble down under?!

yes, every fan of low poly figures says, but you can use displacement maps.

Still I think morphs of muscles bend better and clothes fit better to morphed figures.

And no one makes displacement maps for the low poly figures anyway.

Love esther

Quote - Waves to BlueEcho with both hands! Hello again!!

 

What I call the medium-poly Antonia is the standard one everyone uses. Because I agree, there is no high-poly version.

The problem with the what I call the "standard user" is that he belongs to the silent majority. I would so much wish that this majority speaks it's opinion when it comes to new figures and tools so that people get what they desires.

Just type V4 and polygons and you see what I mean. There are countless people who do not want such poly-heavy figures and that don't use it. These speak up and so they get what they desire, sooner or later. The galleries that accompany the stores are not a benchmark for what people want because not all people use 3d for fun, some do not post their works because they are either not allowed to (commercial artwork, advertising) or because they simply do not want their art being stolen. I found that many people buy my products and never show up somewhere - until they write me because of a question about a product and then I see that they are professional users who do book illustrations, advertising and so on.

But as said: This thread started four years ago and contains 393 sites. Many features people ask for now where discussed before and dropped because either no one said "I want it" or because people said "we want something else". There are, for instance, complaints about the mapping - and we discussed about it for weeks. No one beside the "hard core" showed up and said: I prefer this and that. Back then I felt frustrated about the lack of interest - now I know why.

Don't get me wrong: This has nothing to do with you, Esther. It has nothing to do with anybody who takes the time to follow this thread and speak up. It's frustration about the silent majority who takes, tests and says "Bah - thisandthat is not included." - and forgetting that this is a free community project that needs participation at least as a viewer and critiquer.

In my experience, critiques are often not very well received, and especially when they come from the "silent majority" who are unknown, and hence have no credibility in the content creating community.

However, we do speak with our wallets. And, to me, the results don't look too hard to interpret.

Too bad that people react this way. I think that a polite and not too demanding critique can be considered to be a question or idea. And as Antonia was created by the community the whole project was open for ideas. As Antonia is free considering what people want by what they spend is hard - on the other hand the merchant resource I sell is as popular as the one for M4.... and in general non-V4 products sell more steady than V4 products. I tried to interprete this several times but ended up with: If you want more profit at once over a short time do add-ons for DAZ figures. If you want to have something that gives you profit for years go for the poorly supported figures.

I had some catching up to do and read this post.

One remark stays in my mind:

"It is not the number of poly's that matters, but what do you do with them."

This is the strongest statement of all the words in 394 pages.

For years, Posette was my HIGH POLY figure.
For less years, Judy was my HIGH POLY figure.

For years and years the Poser4 Lo Res figures where my "working figures".

During years, I had ONLY Dork-Posette and her Low Poly friends on my HD.

Fanatically deleting all that was higher Poly count.

Any Poly that I can not use in 3D, it is pollution. Period.

Oh, yes, I had them all. Even had V4.2 at some time. And the full Miki series and Genesis.
I test a lot. I test an average of 8 hrs a day.
I make absolutely "NOTHING." => Production wise that is.

But each and EVERY figure has SERIOUS problems. Even the newest of the newest of the newest.

I build what I need for clothing, props, and test.

It has absolutely nothing to with system or CPU. I have 6 POWER horses to play with.

Now I am building a new Poser machine.
And only One Male and one Female figure will make it to the new HD.

The Male and Female PoserPro LO RES figures at about 8.000 Poly’s each..

That are the ONLY surviving figures from about 12 years of Posering and testing.

At about 8.000 poly's, I can USE each and every one of them.
I adapted the rigging, tweaked the joints, got them exactly as I want them now.

They morph with the best of the lot, and bend better then 99% of all the competition.
They bend so well, they do not even NEED Weightmapping to correct bending problems.
I could WM them, but there is NO added value.

The number of poly’s in a scene are only important in the back of our heads.
The end result is always the same.
ONE single rendered flat plane. = One single lonely POLY we have on screen.

The statement stands.
And I stand behind it.
"It is not the number of poly's that matters, but what do you do with them."

The low-poly version of Antonia also has less than 10,000 polygons, by the way. :biggrin:

Yes sir, and I used/tested her quite a bit. And I thank you for all your hard work.
I should take a second look.

My point being:

The discussion High-Low Poly is as useless as the Poser - DAZ discussion.

It is not what figure or App one uses.
It is ; What do you do with it?

And let us not forget the MOST IMPORTANT part;

Let's have fun, shall we?

looks great!!!

Looks fantastic... refreshing concept, too. Nice to see something reasonably attractive yet not provocative.

I looks really good.

very nice work ...as usual

:O)