My intention on what you are going to read below is to educate others about an article I read, something that made me stop what I am doing and take a look on how am I living my life right now and asking myself, if I were to die tomorrow, is this how I want to spend my last hours?

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REGRETS OF THE DYING (link)

For many years I worked in palliative care. My patients were those who had gone home to die. Some incredibly special times were shared. I was with them for the last three to twelve weeks of their lives.

People grow a lot when they are faced with their own mortality. I learnt never to underestimate someone's capacity for growth. Some changes were phenomenal. Each experienced a variety of emotions, as expected, denial, fear, anger, remorse, more denial and eventually acceptance. Every single patient found their peace before they departed though, every one of them. 

When questioned about any regrets they had or anything they would do differently, common themes surfaced again and again. Here are the most common five: 

1. **I wish I'd had the courage to live a life true to myself, not the life others expected of me. **

This was the most common regret of all. When people realise that their life is almost over and look back clearly on it, it is easy to see how many dreams have gone unfulfilled. Most people had not honoured even a half of their dreams and had to die knowing that it was due to choices they had made, or not made. 

It is very important to try and honour at least some of your dreams along the way. From the moment that you lose your health, it is too late. Health brings a freedom very few realise, until they no longer have it.

2. **I wish I didn't work so hard. **

This came from every male patient that I nursed. They missed their children's youth and their partner's companionship. Women also spoke of this regret. But as most were from an older generation, many of the female patients had not been breadwinners. All of the men I nursed deeply regretted spending so much of their lives on the treadmill of a work existence. 

By simplifying your lifestyle and making conscious choices along the way, it is possible to not need the income that you think you do. And by creating more space in your life, you become happier and more open to new opportunities, ones more suited to your new lifestyle. 

3. I wish I'd had the courage to express my feelings.

Many people suppressed their feelings in order to keep peace with others. As a result, they settled for a mediocre existence and never became who they were truly capable of becoming. Many developed illnesses relating to the bitterness and resentment they carried as a result. 

We cannot control the reactions of others. However, although people may initially react when you change the way you are by speaking honestly, in the end it raises the relationship to a whole new and healthier level. Either that or it releases the unhealthy relationship from your life. Either way, you win. 

4. **I wish I had stayed in touch with my friends. **

Often they would not truly realise the full benefits of old friends until their dying weeks and it was not always possible to track them down. Many had become so caught up in their own lives that they had let golden friendships slip by over the years. There were many deep regrets about not giving friendships the time and effort that they deserved. Everyone misses their friends when they are dying. 

It is common for anyone in a busy lifestyle to let friendships slip. But when you are faced with your approaching death, the physical details of life fall away. People do want to get their financial affairs in order if possible. But it is not money or status that holds the true importance for them. They want to get things in order more for the benefit of those they love. Usually though, they are too ill and weary to ever manage this task. It is all comes down to love and relationships in the end. That is all that remains in the final weeks, love and relationships. 

5.** ****I wish that I had let myself be happier. **

This is a surprisingly common one. Many did not realise until the end that happiness is a choice. They had stayed stuck in old patterns and habits. The so-called 'comfort' of familiarity overflowed into their emotions, as well as their physical lives. Fear of change had them pretending to others, and to their selves, that they were content. When deep within, they longed to laugh properly and have silliness in their life again. 

When you are on your deathbed, what others think of you is a long way from your mind. How wonderful to be able to let go and smile again, long before you are dying. 

Life is a choice. It is YOUR life. Choose consciously, choose wisely, choose honestly. Choose happiness.

Nicely worded article.

I've contemplated a lot of those points many times, especially over the last few years. Unfortunately most of it is not easy to attain. I think some of us are just meant to be alone, even when we don't want to be. 

What's the point in life when there's no one to share it with?

~Shane

Hmm..I agree with Shane and with the article too. There have been times in my life that I made the wrong choices and am now paying the price. However, I don't have to be dying to wish that I could change things. There are so many things I wish I could change, ever day.

I know what it's like to be alone and I know what it's like to have loved ones around. I like being alone only in so much as I can get the things done that I like to do alone. After that, I need a warm body to talk to about nothing, watch tv, have dinner, get a hug once in awhile. Part of the reason I don't have that anymore are due to those bad choices above ;).

Laurie

My first thought after reading this was:  It is posted by someone whose avatar is wearing a gas mask, so this is probably a lot more personal to them as death and safety seem to be a theme here.

My second thought was:  so far, those regrets are what I should be doing now, before I find myself short of time or opportunity.

1.  I have done very little that others truly wanted, especially with regards to maintaining the family line.

2.  I need to get on with things, whether requirements or just personal projects.  Too many things get started and stall and hardly anything gets done - and most of those are not done well.

3.  I need to shut up more than I do - too many times I get distracted by conversation instead of taking action.  "Past glories preventing future greatness."  Like now - too much time in the forums and not enough in Poser.

4.  I would rather not have had so many friends, associates, and acquaintences when growing up, as most soured or simply vanished.  Better to have gone it alone than suffer the distractions and false necessities of others.

5.  Happiness leads to complacency.  I am my own worst enemy and never like what I do, so I think I was only ever happy when I was little and had no concept of much of anything.  Now that I know better, I strive for contentment, since nothing ever gets done well and needs to be adjusted later.  If I ever were happy with something, I would quit trying to improve on it and just let it warp, break, and fade as I tried to hold onto it without fixing anything.  Then, of course, I would be unhappy, so I will just work on things until I stop and settle for "more right than wrong" and come back to it later.  The work is what matters, not the finished product.

Anyway, my final regrets would probably be something like these.

Any regrets I may have don't feature in the above.  Even any wrong choices I made over the years have led me to being with Claire and becoming a father, so I can't see how I made any "wrong" choices, really.

I guess if I have a true regret, it's that I wish I'd been more understanding and a little kinder to some people throughout my life. 

Besides not waiting to do/say/change things until it's too late for you, it's also not waiting to do/say/change things before it's too late for someone you love. I have lots of regrets, but none measure up to my regretting not saying and fixing things before people passed.

I believe that the best form of change, theraphy or motivation is through education.

One of the things I learned is our decisions in life are the result mostly of our conditioning.

One form of conditioning is through your birth order.

I got theis book called "The Birth Order Book" by Dr. Kevin Leman. I hightly recommend it.

To give you a summary, here's an article about it I found on the net.

Through it I realized that since I am a first born, most of my actions is the result of my conditioned perfectionism.

Learning this helped me I guess to avoid having alot of future regrets.

I'm a first born and I have no such conditioned decision making skills...lol. In fact, I've probably been conditioned for failure (if you only knew my Grandmother - think Wicked Witch of the West).

Laurie

I have no regrets about what I've done. without those choices, I would not be the person I am now.

Quote - I have no regrets about what I've done. without those choices, I would not be the person I am now.

I can almost agree with that.  As stated above, my regrets come from the way I treated some people, which could have been better.  I don't think that contributed to the way I am now, it was more a product of immaturity, which I've (hopefully) left a long way behind.

I'm highly sceptical of birth order having such a profound effect on personality, too.  Conditioning, yes, but if that's dependent on birth order I'd say the root cause is the parents and how they treat their offspring, rather than some arbitrary order of birth.

As a father of two young children, I'm acutely aware of my responsibility to them; not only their general physical well being, but their behaviour, expectations and - later in life - their own responsibilities.  What I do and say now will have a direct and lasting effect on their personalities so I have to ensure I give them a good role model.  My  template is taken from my father; if I can do as well as he did, I'll be happy.  The overriding concern is fairness.  I don't ever want either of them to feel I've favoured one over the other.

"Take care of the little one(s)" could cause one of two things:  Either the empowerment or rejection of the eldest.

If the first born feels important for helping, but does not lord it over the siblings, good for everyone.

If the first born feels important for helping and becomes a tyrant, bad for everyone.

If the first born feels unimportant because the replacement(s) are more important, but they try to include the eldest in their activites, good for everyone.

If the first born feels unimportant because the replacement(s) are more important, and they agree, good for the replacements.

How it was said and administered would make most of the difference, unless there was a "wiring" problem in the eldest.  What the little one(s) did with it would make the rest of the difference.

Quote - My  template is taken from my father; if I can do as well as he did, I'll be happy.

There is a line from a Hornblower adaptation where Horatio is speaking of a still-living famous captain - since first hearing it, I have always applied it to my dad:  "To be half the man that he is would see my life fulfulled."

(Of course, I always keep in mind the replay:  "Careful, Mr. Hornblower, such greatness always has its price.")

Quote - As a father of two young children, I'm acutely aware of my responsibility to them; not only their general physical well being, but their behaviour, expectations and - later in life - their own responsibilities.  What I do and say now will have a direct and lasting effect on their personalities so I have to ensure I give them a good role model.  My  template is taken from my father; if I can do as well as he did, I'll be happy.  The overriding concern is fairness.  I don't ever want either of them to feel I've favoured one over the other.

Good for you. A father does have a big impact on the people their children will grow to be. I take the way my father was with me and try to be the opposite with my kids.

Quote - Good for you. A father does have a big impact on the people their children will grow to be. I take the way my father was with me and try to be the opposite with my kids.

I can honestly say my father was my hero.  Also my very best friend. 

Mine would've been reacting faster when someone shouted 'Duck!' :) Seriously though yea nice wise article there. Though it sounds like it comes from someone older not younger, because when we're younger life seems so much longer. Personally my philsophy is simple, don't grow up. Yes theres times for maturity and being sensible, but the moment you stop enjoying things and being creative, I think you might as well give up now. So I'm an artist, making fun stuff, with, and for artistic people. Usually a job which pays flip all and can involve slighlty strange people, but that my choice. And I'd rather have that freedom than 9-5 wearing a suit!

Quote - I'm a first born and I have no such conditioned decision making skills...lol. In fact, I've probably been conditioned for failure (if you only knew my Grandmother - think Wicked Witch of the West).

Laurie

Well, on the Birth Order book, there is this what he mentioned a "Discouraged Perfectionist".

Its a former perfectionist who gave up trying to handle things.

There are also situations that are unique. You could be a first born but if the situation dictated that your other siblings is more dominant, they in the end receives the firstborn mentality.

This is just a guess and not to diagnose you, only to educate. So far the bottom line of everything I learned from this book is simple:

"Its wonderful who you are regardless what order your were born. Everything that hurt you or you did wrong or you are not pleased about yourself is NOT YOUR FAULT and since its not your fault, its reasonable to forgive youself."

Quote - This is just a guess and not to diagnose you, only to educate. So far the bottom line of everything I learned from this book is simple:  

"Its wonderful who you are regardless what order your were born. Everything that hurt you or you did wrong or you are not pleased about yourself is NOT YOUR FAULT and since its not your fault, its reasonable to forgive youself."

That just convinced me not to buy the book.  Do you agree with that understanding, or is it just what you took away after reading the book?

Many years ago I was branch secretary of a union, despite the usual ideas of unions, my interest was in care of others and this often lead me into the lives of members who were ill or recently retired.  Many were fairly well off and could afford not to work but all of those I met continued.  When they did finally have to retire they rarely lived for more than a year leaving considerable amounts of money, which, on some rare occasions only served for the remaining family to argue over.

I remember like as it were yesterday the anger and the sorrow and, at times, the tears I shed.  Almost thirty years ago I promised myself I would not follow the same path.  Ten years ago when I was made redundant at the age of 48 I started working part time.  Around now I had planned to fully  retire and that should happen in the next 12 - 18 months.

I am lucky enough to have married someone who is not only my wife but also my best friend.  The hours I have gained by not working full time has allowed me to do my part as a house husband which means we can spend time being together and doing what we want to do.  I value every minute spent with her.

Do I have regrets - sure.  Would I change things - sure, but I can honestly say at every point and every turn I have always done what I felt was right at the time.  Time has shown I was often wrong but I can still look into the eyes at the face in the mirror   and smile.

Does any of this make me clever - no, it just means I have been lucky although I like to think my guardian angel has worked hard for me over the years.

Quote - > Quote - This is just a guess and not to diagnose you, only to educate. So far the bottom line of everything I learned from this book is simple:  

"Its wonderful who you are regardless what order your were born. Everything that hurt you or you did wrong or you are not pleased about yourself is NOT YOUR FAULT and since its not your fault, its reasonable to forgive youself."

That just convinced me not to buy the book.  Do you agree with that understanding, or is it just what you took away after reading the book?

Thats your call. I am not Dr. Leman and I am not making a cent out of this. You can go to your bookstore, open and read a few pages to see if its for you, if not just return it to the book shelf.

The quote above is my own understanding or perhaps I will call an interpretation now which is also influenced by other information I got from other sources which is too many to identify one by one but they compliment the information I got from the birth order book.

How about you tell me what you didn't like from that belief of mine so that I could be enlightened and change immediately if you convinced me if this belief is a trap?

Quote - You could be a first born but if the situation dictated that your other siblings is more dominant, they in the end receives the firstborn mentality.

That was pretty much it ;). Not that my sibling was more dominant, she became more dominant because she was favored.

Laurie

Attached Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/24/your-money/why-people-remember-negative-events-more-than-positive-ones.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

I regret very few of the things I have done in this life.

I regret a huge and growing number of things I have not done, many of which can never been accomplished now as some opportunities really are "once in a lifetime" and some involve people who have since died.

There are various things in my life I regret. Mostly where my own, seemingly selfish choices have caused distress to others. But also I guess, to a lesser extent, certain career decisions... and just that I failed to "get" certain stuff earlier in my life, that I seem to understand more fully now. I certainly regret much that I feel that I failed to do, when I could have...

However I guess I've always been of the opinion that I wouldn't change a thing... even if I could... somehow travel back in time and do so.

I have come think, for now at least, that the regrets I have are as important a part of my "final self" as the things I think of as being my substantial accomplishments. Maybe the regrets are actually more important.

Cheers

All those things are 100% true, and had they occurred to me 40 years ago, might have made a difference. I always put work first. I'm never late. I'm a perfectionist. I'm very good at my job. If I drop dead tomorrow not one person would miss me as soon as they replaced me. No family, except my sister, who would be sad until she the money cleared, not one friend (I never "had time" for socializing). Younger people might not be seen as ambitious, or self-motivated, or career-oriented, but I think they have it more right. Friends and family are far more important than money or toys.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - This is just a guess and not to diagnose you, only to educate. So far the bottom line of everything I learned from this book is simple:  

"Its wonderful who you are regardless what order your were born. Everything that hurt you or you did wrong or you are not pleased about yourself is NOT YOUR FAULT and since its not your fault, its reasonable to forgive youself."

That just convinced me not to buy the book.  Do you agree with that understanding, or is it just what you took away after reading the book?

Thats your call. I am not Dr. Leman and I am not making a cent out of this. You can go to your bookstore, open and read a few pages to see if its for you, if not just return it to the book shelf.

The quote above is my own understanding or perhaps I will call an interpretation now which is also influenced by other information I got from other sources which is too many to identify one by one but they compliment the information I got from the birth order book.

How about you tell me what you didn't like from that belief of mine so that I could be enlightened and change immediately if you convinced me if this belief is a trap?

We are not acquainted, so I am sorry if you took my comment as any sort of an attack - it was, and is, not.  In the referenced post, you did not mention this book adding to your beliefs - it was my understanding that the Birth Order book was the only source influencing your pink quote, so I was just curious if that was what you believe generally or if it was just the "fortune cookie" you got from reading the book specifically. 

My only concern with the quote is:  "Because I was born (pick a number), I can forgive myself for anything I do, be it mass murder or giving my child cancer from my second-hand smoke."

You are right about me not having read the book, or any part of it, but if this is what you took from it, and it accurately reflects the intended message from the author, I really do not need to read even the flyleaf to guess (guess, I say) that I would dislike it specifically, nor anything else the author wrote.

I have my own Code of Conduct that I try to live by and I am keenly aware when I fail, but I rarely have anyone to blame but myself and take responsibility for my in/actions.  "I was (pick a number), therefore it isn't my fault" is, for me, a cop out, especially if someone were to hold this as their underlying justification for any harm they cause to another.

Again, we are not acquinted, so I trust we can agree to differ - I was just curious if the quote was all you got from the book.  If so, I have no desire to read it. :)

Its OK Grem, our language is so old already that its open for misinterpretation. Just like right now, I am actually surprised that you felt my reply was a counter attack while in my side here, its just normal, intellectual conversation.

"Because I was born (pick a number), I can forgive myself for anything I do, be it mass murder or giving my child cancer from my second-hand smoke."

If the ones you mentioned really forgive themselves, there is a big possibility for them to stop the destructive behavior for relevant education like learning the effects of conditioning usually interrupts the pattern.

Let me get away for a bit on the birth order topic for the subject of mass murderers in particular involves other forms of conditioning.

Even mass murderers are not born mass murderers. They are conditioned to be one and its unfortunate they didn't receive proper help before they start murdering. There is this mass murderer named Albert Fish who ate children. When he was caught, it was learned that when he was young his mother who is a strict religious woman scared him to death that he will burn in hell if he touch his genitals and one night his mother woke to find him screaming for he stuck needles on them for he is afraid to go to hell.

If they could understand the reasons why they keep murdering by educating themselves about the cummulative effect of conditioning, they MIGHT stop murdering.

One thing in life I learned is we have been conditioned also to project our values to other people and unconsciously expect them to behave like us that why we have disagreements, bigotry and racism as an example.

Quote - If they could understand the reasons why they keep murdering by educating themselves about the cummulative effect of conditioning, they MIGHT stop murdering.

 

I think we have a misunderstanding of Freud to thank for the belief that being enlightened about one's motivations equals a potential cure.

Some people rape and murder because they hate women (a result of upbringing quite likely).  They make no bones about it.  They know its momma done real bad stuff.

When one truly lacks impulse control, understanding why one wants to do something doesn't really stop the doing.  If it were that easy, only stupid people would be morbidly obese or gamble to bankruptcy or become alcoholics or drug addicts.

The question is why do some people turn out to have very good self control and others completely lack it?  A history of abuse does not seem to explain it very well.

Quote - Its OK Grem, our language is so old already that its open for misinterpretation. Just like right now, I am actually surprised that you felt my reply was a counter attack while in my side here, its just normal, intellectual conversation.

This is what made me unsure about your reply:

Quote - How about you tell me what you didn't like from that belief of mine so that I could be enlightened and change immediately if you convinced me if this belief is a trap?

Polite inquiry, defensive challenge, or facetious counter?  I also do not use emoticons regularly but, if this had been followed with either :) or >:( I would have phrased my next post differently.  As it was, I took a half step back just in case.

*Quote - "Because I was born (pick a number), I can forgive myself for anything I do, be it mass murder or giving my child cancer from my second-hand smoke."*If the ones you mentioned really forgive themselves, there is a big possibility for them to stop the destructive behavior for relevant education like learning the effects of conditioning usually interrupts the pattern.

That would be the line between rationalization and forgiveness.  I can rationalize all sorts of things and still feel bad about it later - only with self-forgiveness would I feel better and, thus, allow the rationalization to "stick."  An arguement can be made that, if I feel bad about it, then it was not rationalized, it was just done, but I simply offer killing someone in self defense as an example.  I could, at the time, easly say "him or me" and still feel bad about the whole thing later.

Quote - Even mass murderers are not born mass murderers. They are conditioned to be one and its unfortunate they didn't receive proper help before they start murdering . . . If they could understand the reasons why they keep murdering by educating themselves about the cummulative effect of conditioning, they MIGHT stop murdering.

As has been mentioned above, this would be most unlikely.  I also point out the possibility that they just as likely would shift their targets.  If they are murdering, say, proxies for a parent, then learn why the parent acted as they did in the past, the murderer might rationalize a switch in targets to either those actually responsible or, more likely, proxies of convenience.

Nature v Nurture, when applied to humans, tends to favor Nurture often because of: 

Quote - . . . we have been conditioned also to project our values to other people and unconsciously expect them to behave like us that why we have disagreements, bigotry and racism as an example.

That, and the fear that, if someone acted as we have discussed, then we could, too.  Therefore, "they" did so because of a broken home, drugs, or whatever does not apply to "us."

Or, birth order. :p

Some people rape and murder because they hate women (a result of upbringing quite likely).  They make no bones about it.  They know its momma done real bad stuff.

Good point. The question here is, what was his relationship with women close to him? How did they treat him? Then he asks a question, what made these women have this kind of attitude? Poverty? Sexual Abuse? There was this rapist who was interviewed and he said he raped because he hates his dad. Question here next is, why was his dad an ass? What did his father experienced that made him an ass? Poverty? Alcoholic grandad who beats him up? Divorce? Keep on asking questions until you go to the very root and understand the complete conditioning everyone endured that resulted to you.

As you can see its not his fault being a criminal and its not everyone's fault they were that bad.

If you dont know the effects of conditioning you will have a shallow understanding of things and will be ruthless and make no bones towards the people you identify who is only there to hurt you.

When one truly lacks impulse control, understanding why one wants to do something doesn't really stop the doing.  If it were that easy, only stupid people would be morbidly obese or gamble to bankruptcy or become alcoholics or drug addicts.

When I first learned the effects of conditioning to my decisions, it didn't dawned upon me quickly. But the more I learned about it and the better the control I got from my impulses. Education for me should be the first step of theraphy because you cure the disease first (conditioning ex. an adult with a childhood of projecting self image to his dad who betrays his trust that resulted to the loss of self image) before dealing with the symptom (impulses ex. alcoholism, food addiction, gambling problems)

The question is why do some people turn out to have very good self control and others completely lack it?  A history of abuse does not seem to explain it very well.

Thats the million dollar question. I will guess its also the result of other sources of good conditioning, perhaps a helping hand of a good friend, a self help book, a heroic model, religion, a girlfriend etc.

Well, having read a bit of Skinner, I'm inclined to think that you reverse conditioning in precisely the same way it was caused -- by different conditioning.  I'm not sure plumbing the emotional depths is all that necessary, but getting to the heart of reward and punishment (and what stands in for those for various individuals) would matter.  But behaviorism hasn't been popular for quite some time, has it?  We are desperate to believe we have much more control.

I'm not a huge believer in absolute free will.  In many regards, those who do seem to lack too much forgiveness for my tastes.  So while I'm with you on the purposelessness of assigning blame, as a human who is also not gifted with endless degrees of compassion, I can't blame myself either for being outraged at those who engage in pointless violence. When it comes to murder, I can't really blame those who remain judgmental and unforgiving towards the perp.

I also think that people who kill, like a serial killer, have a lot more going on than just a bad upbringing. I had a very bad upbringing, and yet I can't even hurt a fly. So was is that "something?" that makes an otherwise normal kid turn to murder? I would more likely think that it wasn't an otherwise normal kid to begin with. That's not saying that kid would have killed if it had a normal upbringing. But those two things in combination conspired to create a serial killer. I do think it's possible for some ppl to be born "bad" and a horrible childhood just sends them over the edge. I mean, we know that some criminals have supressed impulse centers in the brain. However, I'm not one of those ppl that tends to forgive someone because their impulse centers are depressed. They still had a choice, although maybe a bit harder one for them to make than you and I, but still a choice. And for a serial killer, something like regret is something they never feel. ;) So, how did we get on the subject?

Gremalkyn: I think The Owl meant birth order in that an oldest child will act a certain way (but not always) from the baby of the family for instance. Speaking from my own experience: I have two boys. And was a young mother. I had the first one at 18. And because I'd never been a parent before and also young, I raised him in a  certain way. I maybe have been a bit more strict, he went to bed at a certain time ever night, he had to behave when we were visiting etc. But when the second one came I actually eased up a bit. Let em stay up a little longer on weekends, have an extra cookie, etc, etc. Now, because of that my youngest was a bit more devilish than his older brother was. Cause he thought "I can goof off" and mom's a softie. Now, even though I wasn't even close enough of a softie to let them get away with anything, I believe my youngest has different perceptions of me, and therefore others, than his older brother did, if that makes sense. Now the older seems somewhat more stoic, more responsible, more eager to please than the youngest now that they're grown. The younger does what he pleases pretty much ;).

So, I don't think The Owl meant birth order as some sort of a mystical law of the universe...lol. But instead more of a conditioning that parents do unconsciouosly. Most oldest childern were expected to look after the younger ones and more times than not turn out slightly more responsible. Wouldn't you agree with that?

Laurie

Both my kids are a pair of complete nutcases who encourage each other in being as bad as possible.  :)

Their base personalities seem to be very different, though.  Sam (2yrs 9 months) is a dive straight in impulsive crazy guy, Ilona (16 months) is much more cautious and will take time to assess a situation before acting.

Friends and family say Sam is like me and Ilona is like Claire.  Ilona, however, has a really, really bad temper which is unlike Claire. 

That, I'd suggest, has nothing to do with their birth order or conditioning.  They're just unique little people.  Of course, things affect them same as anyone else so there's no way of knowing how they will be when they get older; it's very easy to see their "true" personalities at this age, though. 

Quote - So, I don't think The Owl meant birth order as some sort of a mystical law of the universe...lol. But instead more of a conditioning that parents do unconsciouosly. Most oldest childern were expected to look after the younger ones and more times than not turn out slightly more responsible. Wouldn't you agree with that?

I understand what you are saying, but I disagree completely.  From what you said about raising your own, it is just as likely the young mother across the street I am now making up did exactly the opposite - being new, she was lax with her first child not out of laziness but out of ignorance - things were not done or corrected simply because she either never thought of it or did not know how.  With her second kid, she knew better and that one was raised like a cadet in a military academy.

Now assume one of yours and one of hers are cannonized as saints and the others are on the FBI's Top Most Wanted list.

Are the good adults the ones who were the good kids, or did something happen to make one rebel while the bad kid "saw the light" however you want to interpret that?  There are simply too many variables for birth order to be seriously considered as a major factor, especially when, apparently, the author of the book admits that role reversals happen if . . .

It is just like saying "I was born on a Tuesday, therefore I will grow up to eat bugs, slap my sister, and pee in the flower pot.  Unless there was an R in the month when I was born, in which case I will not do any of those things."

It TheOwl, or anyone else, wants to incorporate the ideas in the referenced book into their personal philosophy, they are welcome to do so - I, however, shall not, and have no intrest in reading a book that may be part self-help and part academic discussion regarding a topic I cannot take seriously or use as a reference for my own studies.  To each their own, and this is not for me. :)

I don't think it's that simple either Gremalkyn LOL. As long as we're talking about human beings there's a different millions ways for someone to go ;). But because we're human there's also a lot of things we do alike.

Laurie

I read the birth order book about 30 years ago.  It's not so simple as some posts are suggesting it might be.  But I also expect that the ideas are a bit outdated.

Nevertheless, the fact that parents do treat their children differently, whether because of age or sex or because a child expresses certain personality traits that a parent either favors or doesn't, that fact does affect us.  I don't think anyone can say with any degree of certainty (and still keep an honest face) that they know how much these things affect any given individual.  Our science is just not that good yet.

ETA: And yeah, Laurie, I think serial killers being such an aberration, there is likely something biological going on in addition to any social factors.