jrisal-- Right you are! Nonetheless-- kudos to the first artist who can interpret this thread in Render Wars! - JimX

JRizal: Gee, and I could have sworn the first post was mine since I created the topic. Let me scroll up and see ... yup, it's mine and no where in the body of the message is one slanderous thing said about any platform. In fact, the message has nothing to do with platform wars. I already apologized for the title, or said I wish I hadn't called it that (but I really did feel sorry for Mac users, as much as I did when I found out Mimic is not available for the Mac either, and hundreds of other worthy titles.) Look in the mirror for the misguided ... Mac users are the ones that turned a topic specifically about MKScripts into a flame war, not me. Talk about insecurity ... WOW!! Just about anything that COULD be percieved a negative Mac comment incites a near riot as Mac users pour into a topic area that really has absolutely nothing to do with them to strike down the "evil PC user" who dares even utter the Macintosh name in the same sentence as "sorry." How dare me!

XV: It's not MY tweaking sorry. Wish it was, but it belongs to Morphing Kinematics, thus the MK. They are more than just tweaks. MK has done a lot of very cool stuff (including the Rhino Mech) and are a very talented group of people/person.

The right amount of software is available for both platforms, as reported by timoteo1 there is now an automation thingie for the Windows platform as well. As with all UNAVAILABLE software it is usual to find there has been the same facility handy all along, ie Quickeys, which is also available for Windows. Minor exceptions being this MIMIC thing and Virtual Stonehenge (remember that?) but these will catch up. This thread was originally a Mac v Windows thread as proclaimed by the heading but became a serious dialogue about automation. No... Lets have some fun... WINTELS ARE STUPID!!!!!! WINTELS ARE STUPID!!!!!! ...

"The right amount of software is available for both platforms" Suuurrre, if you want to live the fantasy, go right ahead. Ignorance is bliss. "reported by timoteo1 there is now an automation thingie for the Windows platform as well.: Uhhhh, did you even bother to read what MKScripts is about??? It is NOT an "automation thingie" as you put it. Granted, QuickKeys seems pretty neat (even though there have been programs around like this for ages, even ones with voice command (back in the Windows 3.11 days) but QK's is not going to be able to do most (if not all) of what MKScripts does. Do you even have a clue about Python Scripting. It's not just a tool for automating procedures and key presses, although it can do this too. "As with all UNAVAILABLE software it is usual to find there has been the same facility handy all along, ie Quickeys ..." Ummmmm ... hello?? WRONG on BOTH counts ... utterlly, laughably, proposterously (fill in other adjectives for outrageous) WRONG. As I just explained Quickeys is no more a substitute for MKScripts then motor oil is for drinking water. And since you mentioned it, I'm not aware of anything remotely simliar to Mimic for the Mac. Mimic is the holy grail of lip-synching for animators. What once took days or weeks now takes a few seconds (or perhaps an hour if you need to tweak it and are very nitpicky.) Then of course there is Illusion -- one of the greatest particle generators to come around ... well, EVER. Guess which OS it's not written for and NEVER going to be written for? The list of apps and games is long and devastating. I'm sure with SOME of the apps their might be a counterparts for the Mac, but most are probably taking two steps backward to move one step forward. Glad we could have this serious talk about automation.

Here's a thought for you. Poser itself was developed on the Mac, then ported for the PC. So, you'd expect Poser (and, the ProPack) to be more stable and better performing on the Mac than on the PC. So, why could it be possible that "Poser ProPack for Mac completely and utterly sucks"? What went wrong to cause this? If I were a betting man, I'd have money on programming difficulty as at least a partial cause.< Im am running the Poser Propac On My OS9.1 Drive. and it dosent "Suck " any more than it does for PC users. I think the propack dilemma is because poser users were not prepared for the tedious work of bone rig building and weight mapping a mesh to a bone rig in the set up room. most had no experience with this because poser has protected them from having to deal with this area in the past. The claim "create new Characters in minutes" fooled alot of poser users into thinking it was a Push button process like the rest of poser. as far as the hosting in other programs Ask the 3Ds MAX users about their "Success" I dont care about this silly platform war. My Seat of Cinema and Lightwave 6.5 is proof that my future looks bright as a 3d junkie on the new MAC OS And MAYA is on the way!!!

xvcoffee wrote: IBM IS STUPID AN MACINTOSH ISNT ... but IBM designed the processor in the Mac... xvcoffee wrote: WINTELS ARE STUPID!!!!!! ... but Intel designed the PCI bus in the Mac... xvcoffee needs to go xvdecaff. Ciao! Joe

Wiz is taking a Mac v Win thread seriously.

when timoteo buys a mac I give him a working five button mouse for free !!!!!

Thanks Grammer! Will you also give me several thousand dollars for when I need to buy ANOTHER Mac in a year or two because Apple's upgrade path is so pathetically limited? Or how about just 1 or 2 thousand so I can buy the components necessary to get it to come close to the power and usability of my current system?

You should get well informed before talking, timoteo. Someone earlier in this thread said: ignorance is bliss... Arturo

Arturo: After your stunningly inept and inappropriate analogy from an earlier post, I'll take that as a compliment. Again, does anyone have anything constructive or interesting to say about the MKScripts? Which is why I posted this in the first place -- AGAIN! For a topic that Mac users shouldn't be worrying themselves about, a whole viper's nest of them sure has sprung up. An what venom!

I dont take this thread serious, because I have heard this discussion for many many times - it does not depend on what system you are working, every system has its pros and cons , it depends from what you are doing with it. I am working with any system as long as it gives me the results I need, and I tell you I have worked an a few starting from a PDP 11 (this is the one you programmed with switches in the front) to almost any system on the market - so lets close the thread it does not lead to anything than bad feelings.

Yes, wed like to talk about MKScripts, in a thread named MK Scripts ROCKS!!! with no mention of anything the author wants kept off-topic. Most of Macs software obstacles stem not from design short comings but from paranoia spread buy a few people un-named.

Obviously inept and inappropriate from your personal point of view. Post 63. Second line. Arturo

Is this the longest thread in the forum yet? ;) Arturo

ImagineThat: I couldn't agree more! Cheers! Why is it that most Mac users adopt this behaviour?? -Timoteo

Oh wait, boy am I red-faced ... you're talking about ME! Wow ... you see I assumed you actually took the time to read the posts here before "spounting off YOUR virtual mouth," but I see I was completely wrong. You see, if you had bothered to read MY posts you would see that I am quite informed about both platforms and multiple OS's. I've used both Macs and PCs extensively and there simply is no comparison ... for me. FYI, a LOT of the programs (again if you read the posts) are NOT and NEVER will be for the Mac. Here are some facts for you: G4, configured to match my system (although it is still slower) costs over $1000 more and still does not measure up. And here's the laughable part, and I quote directly from Apple: "Massive expansion ... AGP 4X graphics slot, four 64-bit PCI slots, up to three hard disks ..." WOW, a whole FOUR PCI slots! THREE hard disks?!? Holy-crap! Massive expansion ... oh yeah. On the plus side, I DO like Apple's web site ... very cool. And the G4 look pretty nice on the outside, I'll give them that. -Timoteo PS> As I noted earlier ... I did NOT start the flame war, my post is about how cool MKScripts is, and so far Mac users have flooded the thread with torches at the ready.

xvcoffee wrote "Wiz is taking a Mac v Win thread seriously." I'm one of the most serious Mac people you'll find, despite not currently owning one. I've frequented Mac developers conferences like MacHack (and have even spoken at them). I know the Mac innards, and I know the Apple history. So when people make blindingly inaccurate statements about what kinds of software are availiable for the Mac, or why certain pieces of software are not availiable for the Mac, it really rubs me the wrong way. And when people make statements about how great the Mac really is, and then quote mythology, instead of the real reasons why the Mac is a dang good platform, and a very admirable piece of engineering, it's especially painful. Sort of like "with friends like these, who needs enemies?" Statements like "IBM IS STUPID AN MACINTOSH ISNT" just don't cut it, if you can't back it up. I've been part of development efforts on a scale that most people can't even imagine, and I know that there are limits in the current MacOS that simply cannot be overcome without replacing the OS. Even Apple acknowledges that, which is why they've been working to scrap the current MacOS for longer than 12 years. You should attend a major Mac developers conference (you're welcome to come on down to Detroit for MacHack) and talk to some of the people who WRITE your favorite programs (not the schmaltzy folks who SELL them, like you meet at COMDEX) and you'll realize why so much more major software is written for the PC than the Mac. There are real reasons, and they have nothing to do with shadowy Microsoft-Intel conspiracies, press bashing of the Mac, etc. Myself, I'm a cross-platform advocate, foaming at the mouth. Renderosity members have heard me go on and on about my beloved cross platform frameworks and class libraries like wxWindows, cross platform 3D Graphics in OpenGL, and other cross platform tools like OpenSoundSystem, VoiceXML, NIFF, UNICODE (OK, that's cross cultural). And yes, I can point out so many wonderful and brilliant things Apple has done over the last 20 years that it would make you swoon about what a technological mecca they are. I can do the same about IBM. I could even play Devil's advocate and show you some genuinely brilliant stuff going on at Microsoft (Huges Hoppe and Kai-Fu Lee ended up there, after all). There's greatness and schlock in every corporation. So what. Do they make the tools you need to get the job done? That's the question. Ciao! Joe

Boy, you leave a thread for a few days and all hell breaks loose. Okay, just my two cents... I work on both platforms. I use software on both platforms. Yes, PC has programs like Mimic that will probably never show up on a Mac, but Mimic makes files that can be ported to and read on a Mac, so what's the problem there? (And for the record, Mimic ain't that great, guys; I get far better results doing it myself, even at one frame at a time. Maybe they'll improve some of the lacking subtlety in the next version of Mimic, but for now, it's utilitarian at best, and not much more.) Yep, can't run some of the high-end 3D programs on a Mac, but I don't need high-end programs. My animation and still work isn't meant for a Famous Player Movie Theatre Near You: it's designed for smaller playing windows and lower resolution requirements... so what's the problem there? In case anyone's missed the point, these are just tools, not flags to denote one's patriotism to one platform or another. You use what you need on one and then take it over to another to finish the job. So big deal. A dxf file on a PC is the same as a dxf on a Mac. An .mov is a .mov. A jpeg is still very much a jpeg. There's room in my kitchen for both a convection oven and a regular oven, and my home entertainment centre has both VHS and DVD. So it's not a surprise that my office has both my Mac and my PC -- linked together, no less. Jeez, people... get a life, huh?

Well tried to leave it alone but I was the one that started the Mac rebuttal way back when when I saw this"It's not worth the time or expense to develop the software for a dying platform which makes up (based on Internet statistics) less than 5% of the personal computer market." but I don't think it is right to say that Wintel's suck. I say I hate them and they aren't for me but trying to convince someone that Mac's are good isn't going to happen by bashing PCs. It goes back to the whole arguement from schoolyards saying my daddy can beat up your daddy. Whatever. I hate PCs ... I have never seen any use for 2 button mice. I like Mac's. There is room for both and each does something the other can't and each has things that the other people don't like and can't use. Each has good points, each has bad. I still like Mac. I still won't use PC. Nuff said.

Thank you Wiz for the kind invitation to MacHack. Yes I would like to see you there, only one problem. Unless someone pays my airfare and a whole lot of other people make big holes their Schedules and/or cancel their bills it may have to be 2004, maybe 3.

ImagineThat: Thanks for making this personal with your uncalled-for personal attacks and showing everyone your sub-standard maturity level ... "I read your lame posts and I still say your an uneducated idiot." I won't even dignify that with a response, other than to say I don't need to defend my educational level or intellect from the likes of you. Although it does not surprise me one bit ... people who are faced with facts and can not win an argument on their own expertise (or lack there of) often resort to name calling and swearing. Glad you avoided the latter though. Anyway to address your other comments (notice I won't call you a moron, insecure spazz, misinformed numbskull, overzealous jackass, or any of the crude things like you have been attacking me with since your first post) ... 1) I NEVER said or assumed you were a Mac user, I simply refuted your false claims/accusations about me and my posts as I am doing now. 2) I only started explaining my opinions on some (of the many) reasons why I don't care to use Macs after Mac users started slandering PCs. 2b) My comments, such as the three you quoted, were simple fact. These weren't even my opinions ... it's a FACT that Apple has a miserably small share of the computing market. It's a FACT that MANY developers overlook the Mac (myself included) because we are in business, not running a charity, and therefore need to make profits. For a lot of companies it simply is not profitable to develop a product for such a small market. There are tons of Amiga users out there too ... but they make up an even smaller percentage. Do you want companies to start making software for them too? Just because Amiga-users know in their heart-of-hearts that they really are the best system on the planet? Not to mention what the rock-solid information WIZ has posted about the other important factors. I'm not sure what "proof" you want as I am basing this on my experience using both Macs and PCs extensively. I'm sorry it pisses you off that I and countless other developers don't want to waste their time and money developing for the Mac platform, I really am ... but that's honestly not what this post was about. The third person mentioned they would be losing sales, and I simply explained the cold hard truth that they (MK) could probably care less, which -- AGAIN -- I am basing as a software developer and what is happening in the market. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe THEY do care and will try to do something about it. Whether or not Apple is dying or not, will be argued until we're all blue in the face, and that is my one original comment that is highly subjective I realize. However, I am basing it on the facts: Such as Apple's limited expandability, exorbitant pricing, market share, dead end with software, AND the fact that as more and more people in the graphic community are realizing that the PC platforms (particularly those with an NT kernel) do graphics/video/etc. just as well, or in some cases, better than Macs they are going to loose even more market share. First the school systems bailed out Mac back in the 80's, and for a time anyone doing graphics was Mac-loyal. But the tables are turning and more and more graphics-oriented people are turning towards PCs because they are every bit as good, easy to use, and they are a LOT less expensive. This is what I'm basing my "dying" statements on. I hope this is quite clear to you now, and I hope that you actually read what I am saying. -Tim

Imagine wrote: "Please prove me and countless others here wrong and post the urls to the web sites you get you info from. Becuase you obviously know more than market researchers and computer software/hardware companies do. Put up or shut up!" Okay, if you're talking about the percentages I have posted, I would be more than happy to show you server logs of a number of web sites that do statisitical vistor tracking and post the screen captures on here. HOWEVER, I will only go to this trouble if after I do so ... "PUT UP" as you so elequently put it, that you will promise to SHUT the "HELL UP." Deal? But quite honestly, anyone who refutes the known fact that Macs make up an infitesimal percentage of the computer market are beyond delusional. Most die-hard Mac fans openly acknowledge this reality. -Tim

conditioned unit origin: Tycho Machinated Mercenary destin: conditioned wintel user Tim ref: Mutinous Macintosh Units stamp: envy Methinks you have way too much time on your hands. My what big arms you have... JUMP PAD ACTIVATION INITIATION START TRANSPORT WHEN READY

Guys, this isn't the place for a PC/Mac war. Take it elsewhere.

Why not just lock the thread???

Or move it to C&D.

Sorry guys, not my forum, and I don't like stepping on toes unless I have to.

Hi Folks! It's true! There IS more software for the PC!! I saw all of it yesterday in the bargain bin at CompUSA!! This whole conversation is irrelevant. It's easy to brag about the bells and whistles on your box when you're just outputting your images as .jpgs or .gif files. I have fun with online images. I make a living in PRINT. Dying platform? Try saving one of your Poser images at 3500 dpi, take it to Kinko's or another commercial printer, tell them you want the colors to look exactly the way they look on the original CD, and tell them you want it tomorrow. Then ask them what platform they're going to use to do your job. tim has just done the best impression of a troll swearing he isn't a troll that I've seen here in a while--but nowhere nearly as good as the ones that show up regularly at MacAddict. Thanks to MartinC and others, anything of relevance that can be done with Poser on a PC can be done on my Mac. tim, your sympathy is neither appropriate nor desired. rcook is right. THIS IS A GRAPHICS FORUM, DAMMIT. We're all artists here, not platform evangelists. I just want to learn how to make the most from Poser, regardless of the machine I use. Let's leave the Mac/PC contention to other forums. And let's leave the puerile crotch-grabbing from folks like tim to their insecurities. Peter (Dr Zik)

Wow, yet another personal attack! What a shocker! No, not a personal attack from a Mac user, heavens no! (Although it never ceases to amaze me.) You're confusing insecurity with confidence, knowledge, and that warm-fuzzy feeling that comes from knowing you're doing everything and more than Mac users can for a lot less money, and your clients LOVE YOU for it. Talk about insecurity, the Mac-loyal are the ones screaming about the post, with a majority (including yourself) unable to admit to two FACTS: 1) the Mac market in TINY, and 2) There is a disproportionate amount of (QUALITY) software (and hardware) available for the PC market that is not available for the Mac. I do a LOT of print work, and thanks for revealing that you know almost next to nothing about professional printing. Oh, and anyone who does pro print work would never take a job to Kinko's for gods-sake. I like Kinko's, but I wouldn't use them for anything professional, as most professionals won't. "Anything of relevance that can be done with Poser on a PC can be done on my Mac." What the heck is your definition of relevance?? MKScripts and Mimic are pretty damn substantial tools, to name but two. Here is something I came across just today (and things like this are prevalent all the time!): "Introducing v2.0 of MovingPicture * Major Rendering Speed Increase! We have made a major breakthrough in increasing the rendering speed. Windows-based systems now render a blazing 50% to 300% faster than before! Unfortunately, the PowerPC processors used on Macintosh systems are not able use all the techniques available on the Intel and AMD processors, so the speed-up is only 10%" -Tim

This is a FEEDBACK thread in a graphics forum where cross-platform users like myself and Mac users can be seen and heard by the industry and by like minded. The hardware is there, the market is there (may need another push) now we want the software. I worry about a Mac version of Mimic, I havent looked in the bargain bin at compusa so I dont know for certain its there but it could be that Lipsync dont want us to find out, like a lot of IBM only products, what a dinky piece of shareware it really is.

XV: Once again, your lack of knowledge (and logic) stuns me. Yeah, that's why so many Mac people in the Poser community have been bugging the living hell out of Lipsync and been up in arms ever since they announced there would not be a Mac version. And I suppose that is why you have Mac users paying PC users (or getting them to do it for free) to creat pose files from Mimic for them, right? What a crock you're full of ... But, just so we can be difinitive about this ... here's a challenge for you: Let's take a mere 15 seconds WAV file (or AIFF, or whatever you want) of speech, and we'll both have exactly one hour to produce a realistic looking lip-synched animation. We'll get someone to contribute the wav file who is impartial and so we know we're starting at the exact same time. Then we'll post our animations on here and let everyone judge which one looks more realistic. You up to the challenge? And remember, no cheating ... no using a PC and Mimic. I'll just have to trust you. Otherwise, quit posting a bunch of trash-talk that you can not even remotely back up. You might not like what I have to say, but at least it's based in fact.

Hmmmmm... The constraints of this forum do not permit the posting of all my reasons for not taking up the challenge by Ti, who I actually had a lot of admiration for before this thread. I have some work to return to and will be a couple of hours, I suggest timoteo1 spend the time more carefully reading the entries in this thread. I do not think the good doctor sends any work at all to Kinkos who from what I recall are a hamburger chain, alright theyre not but no-one specified they use them for serious output, not here.

Apple, the dying brand: http://wired.com/news/business/0,1367,46530,00.html Arturo

Hi Folks! tim, I'm not going get into a pissing match with you about who has more experience in the print industry. Although I am surprised that you don't know that it's widely known even among graphics profesionals (PC. Mac, print video and otherwise), that color management is better on the Mac. That's why even copy shops like Kinko's use them for their important digital color output. I'd just like for you to address the central point in my post. If both of us are getting what we want or need for graphics work on our respective machines--and that's certainly the case--than there is nothing to be gained from coming here and bragging about what yours can do. Unless you DO have some sort of insecurities that make it necessary for you to come here and violate the harmony that PC and Mac users here enjoy. Again, we're all artists here. I frankly don't care what machine you use. But I do expect that serious professionals and fellow Poser users will respect my choice of the one that I use. You obviously do not. Please take your bias elsewhere--it's not welcome here. Peter (Dr Zik)

Guess what platform isn't supported by the new TAILOR software -- the greatest edition to Poser in A LONG TIME?? LMAO!