Well it takes all kinds to make a world. Let the 1000 flowers bloom.

But what saddens me is when I browse the galleries and see someone who clearly have a talent waste it completely by being unserious.

"There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes."

***The Fourth Doctor - Robot

Hmm, I see your point.

Sorry about the double post above... the site was giving me some issues as was internet explorer and it had shown as frozen and not processing my post the first time... apologies.. it was purely unintentional...

Quote -
But I am not under any Delusion that my "Art "
has an intrinsic value anywhere NEAR that of the
sanitation engineers in New york whom are enabling me to have Drinkable water and flushing toilets

Take away the Mona Lisa or ILM and all special effects movies and  all 3D render engines on the same day you Take away refrigeration and functional sewers and see what regular people complain about the most .
"Artists" really need to get over them/ourselves

Artists are the innovators of society. Without them, who would have built that refridgerator?

Can you think of anything man-made that did not require the aid of an artist at some point in its design?

Considering, the very basic definition of art is design, without artists we'd still be living in caves wiping our asses with leaves and covering them with bear skins. 

Entertainment is necessary on a psychological level in order for people not to go crazy, or become violent, and in order to have entertainment you need artists of some form or another to create it.

So while the world can survive without ILM and special effects movies, the world would be much less comfortable and much more primitive and violent, without artists.

~Shane

"Grown-ups never understand anything by themselves, and it is tiresome for children to have to explain things to them always and forever." - Antoine de Saint Exupery

"Artists are the innovators of society. Without them, who would have built that refridgerator?"

An Engineer

"Can you think of anything man-made that did not require the aid of an artist at some point in its design?"

yes soap.

The Axe

"Considering, the very basic definition of art is design, without artists we'd still be living in caves wiping our asses with leaves and covering them with bear skins. "

Perhaps YOU would sir
I would be living in a steel & concrete structure design by the NON ARTISTS individuals  I listed earlier inspired by NECESSITY
Read the history for yourself sir

Cheers

An engineer is an artist. 

A blacksmith is an artist.

A cook is an artist.

A clothing designer is an artist.

Even a software designer is an artist.

They may not be artists who specialize in color theory but they are designers who have to use the creative process to bring their ideas to fruition through the principles of design. Therefore they are artists. 

Tell the architect that built that concrete and steel structure that he's not an artist and you're likely to be insulted, or worse.

Leonardo da Vinci - one of the greatest inventors of all time, was an artist first.

Artists have been responsible for cultural and political upheavals and change for as long as man has existed. They influence the way we interpret the world and can change peoples minds about issues on a subliminal level just by portraying in a different light. You can look to the history of television for countless examples of that.

~Shane 

AmbientShade : My Friend ,There is no point in debating with a machine.

Based on basicwiz info I'm guessing venders make around $600.00 a year.

Some months better then others.

Rhiannon had a good month and won vender of the month

So Rhiannon made $60.00 this month.

If she made her products with C4D ,Photoshop ,on a desent PC.

It cost $6000.00 to make $60.00

& if it's just for personal use why make it for Poser ,

why not leave it in C4D it would be a lot eaiser then making it work in Poser.

If she worked at Micky D's she could make $60.00 in a 8 and 1/2 hour shift.

At MickyD's she would not need C4D ,Photoshop ,or a desent PC.

or the years it took to learn them.

or the 40 hours a week it takes to make content at
$60.00 a month it's basicly working for free.

So people are venders hoping to get a Job at ILM ?

I have to agree with AmbientShade.

If you have style and taste,

a high IQ,

and a technical background

Then you are an artist whether you know about it or not.

 RorrKonn,

There are endless talk about how little you earn as vendors and even the median income of other artists in the society is low is low. Nevertheless I am sure the top vendore have a nice income. How much the vendors earn is a big secret but there are indications. Any product that don't sell (or don't sell anymore) is removed. But there are many vendors who have several pages with products..think for yourself.

Another info I have from the Marvelous Designer site. When the management were trying to set the price for the Commercial version of their product they put a couple of garments up for sale at Renderosity as a test. And they earned $1000 in a month.

This endless talk about low earnings is just another "you shall not think that you are something" variant. If you succeed to acquire a skill set comparable to the professionals there are endless ways to make money. Even little I were contacted by an event company in New York for an consignment. I was forced to say no because it was way over my head. But anyhow.

 Edit: Most important of all you must be able to work fast.

This endless talk about low earnings is just another "you shall not think that you are something" variant. If you succeed to acquire a skill set comparable to the professionals there are endless ways to make money.

Very few Poser content creators make a living at it. No Poser content creators are getting rich from it. It's just a fact. The real money for this sort of stuff resides elsewhere.

I'm not asking about the money ,I'm asking why work here for little pay ?

If the money is else where why are thay here and not where the money is ?

Making it work for the app that it is modeled in and Poser is twice the work.

why don't thay just make content for there app and make nothing at turbo ?
it would be easier.

Do you stand a better chance of getting on at ILM if you made Poser content ?

If venders are not here for the money ,Then why are thay here ?

I'm asking why work here for little pay ?

It makes sense if you're a hobbyist. *

"If venders are not here for the money ,Then why are thay here ?"

Because for the growing ground. If you can hold your own as a vendor here at Renderosity you can hold your own anywhere.

Quote -  RorrKonn,

There are endless talk about how little you earn as vendors and even the median income of other artists in the society is low is low. Nevertheless I am sure the top vendore have a nice income. How much the vendors earn is a big secret but there are indications. Any product that don't sell (or don't sell anymore) is removed. But there are many vendors who have several pages with products..think for yourself.

Another info I have from the Marvelous Designer site. When the management were trying to set the price for the Commercial version of their product they put a couple of garments up for sale at Renderosity as a test. And they earned $1000 in a month.

This endless talk about low earnings is just another "you shall not think that you are something" variant. If you succeed to acquire a skill set comparable to the professionals there are endless ways to make money. Even little I were contacted by an event company in New York for an consignment. I was forced to say no because it was way over my head. But anyhow.

 Edit: Most important of all you must be able to work fast.

 

I scan the gallery ,I might see the same out fit 10 times.
So i think thay sold 10 of them ,that's not much.

I've never seen a $1000 worth of anything sold In the Poser gallery.

Bet the rest of the venders would like to know how Marvelous Designer made a $1000.

I think vender income is a big secret because thay don't want other commercail jobs thinking thay don't half to pay them.

Quote - "If venders are not here for the money ,Then why are thay here ?"

Because for the growing ground. If you can hold your own as a vendor here at Renderosity you can hold your own anywhere.

 

The ones that use to be a vender but left cause they got a higher paying CGI job.
How many of them where there ?
What was the Jobs ?

"So i think thay sold 10 of them ,that's not much"

That doesn't mean anything most traditional painters with brush and easel don't earn much either. Nevertheless, Jack Vettriano, who is an traditional figurative artist not modernist in any way on 21 April 2004 sold the original canvas of The Singing Butler at an auction for £744,500. And there are many others like him.

Most of the Poser users may be hobbyists, but a successful vendor is always a professional.

And many vendors started out as hobbyist users.

It is a sad fact that, to a great extent, in our current age, artistry has become somewhat divorced from engineering and science. The cost of this is a loss of vision... a loss of insight into why we build what we build. A loss of any real sense of what life is and why it is important. My feeling at least. But, this is a relatively recent phenomenon.

We certainly wouldn't be where we are at now, as humanity, a race built upon its culture, without our projective imaginations... the core mental faculty inherent in the practice of art and design.

I do think though, that CG is an area where artistry and technical method do meet up... the engineer's brain, is once again married up to the artistic heart.

I guess compartmentalisation of the roles of artist and designer, relative to scientist and engineer, in our contemporary society is largely a logistical necessity too... these areas have all, of course, become so specialised, compared to what they were even just a century or so ago... one cannot hope to be a jack of all trades and truly master any.

I still love the notion though, in principle at least, of the Da Vinci-esque bricoleur...

...and, in terms of that topic of specialism, I find it fascinating that, for example, in the field of CG, there are now, seemingly, individuals who are effectively specialist, virtual hairdressers...

The poser content market is subject to the basic rule of supply & Demand Just like any other market and for a LONG time now the Supply has far exceed the Demand. No one is making a full time living as a poser ,*(lets be honest)*Vicky Content maker.

The management recently Imposed new minimum pricing guidelines to try to stem the flow of low priced similar items in the market but it wont help the situation to be honest.

As far as the "pros" working for big CG studios I suggest you go and read the forum sticky called "The truth about the Industry" over the CG society.org.

in short even if you work AT ILM, Weta Digital etc, unless you are the owners/management you will likely work ridiculous hours (65-70) per week, and when the final deliverables for a film project are ready for post you are back out on the street looking for another gig. and they are fewer in between.

And now that everybody can afford MAYA,Nuke, or Houdini etc and has access to high quality training videos most of the Big CG companies are moving their facilities over sea's to take advantage of cheap local labor.

The realty is that despite all the hype from politicians about a "recovery" the World Economy has not ,and likely will never, go back to the easy credit Days before the crash of 2008.

look at the situation in Europe right now. we had a big multi decade period of "growth" that was false as it was based on borrowed money.

"...and, in terms of that topic of specialism, I find it fascinating that, for example, in the field of CG, there are now, seemingly, individuals who are effectively specialist, virtual hairdressers..."

HI perhaps there are people only doing this for themselves or "hobbyists" but no CG studio will pay one individual just to Do nothing but CG hair.

Cheers

Yup... I think the virtual hair specialist I noted, from something on the CGSociety website, looked like they were aiming to bolster their income, between whatever paying game or film industry jobs they might be getting, by teaching classes...

...I certainly wasn't trying to suggest anyone was making a decent living from this specialism. Maybe they are... but I certainly don't know either way.

When I graduated art college, I quickly decided there was no hope of making a decent living from anything that I'd just studied... and without wealthy parents or a trust fund to rely on, I  chose an entirely unrelated career path, which, I'm thankful, has so far kept paying my bills.

Now, I am most definitely a hobbyist, when it comes to any form of creative arts... and personally I like it that way.

I know of only a handful of people I went to college with who have had success in a creative industry. But of those, a number have indeed now been very successful, in the Fine Art market and also in the Film industry (to the level of regularly working on major studio, blockbuster movies, in one case).

Cheers

Interesting comments! I went to art school and was planing on being an artist from the time I was a child. I ended up in the concrete business. I always kept my foot in it building and designing trade show displays and creating our brochures and ads. But I always felt something was missing in my life and not truly happy. I have been lucky enough to be able to retire early and pursue this fulltime on my own. I think Im beginning to feel like a kid again ( which is a good thing) after 34 years in the business world.

wolf359, "Everything is bleak and downhill" ;)

Why don't you read some of the interviews of "Vendor of the Month"? I don't hear any complaining from that department. And BTW, I have never heard one single negative word from those vendors I know and respect.

http://www.renderosity.com/keyword/VOM

 I especially enjoyed the interview with Joanna (StudioArtVartanian), author of "The Dragon Lady", one of the most amazing products I ever seen at Renderosity.

"And BTW, I have never heard one single negative word from those vendors I know and respect."

You say that from the limited perspective of someone who does not have access to our private vendors only forum Vintorix.
People speak much more openly there
to each other about the state of things than in the general forums.

Cheers

By your definition, Vintorix, I'm an artist even though I'd never claim to be.  Then again, style and taste are somewhat arbitrary in their definitions.  I certainly fit the bill otherwise, though.

Thing is, my art - my real art - doesn't get featured here, ever.  I generally draw and paint for the love of it anyhow.  Same with music.  I take them seriously but I don't expect anyone else to do so.

An amateur artist, maybe? :) 

SamTherapy,

Tolstoy has written some very interesting, informative and profound thoughts about what that should be "the driving force" in artists, in his case a famous violin player. I recommend to check it out. I won't go into it here, but I can say that love of the your art was, although important, not no #1 on the list.

From Wolf's comments about the Vendors forums, am I to assume that something is rotten in the kingdom of denmark?

or is there a conspiracy amongst the vendors to dominate the world market economy?

@ Vintorix - thanks, I'll check it out.

@ Mystic - not really.  It's just that it can be a lot of hard work for little reward, being a vendor.   The trick is to be really, really good.  And innovative.  Don't go too far from the mainstream, though; you could end up selling nothing at all, no matter how good it is.

Generally speaking, if you can find a niche that's popular with customers but not over done by vendors, you can sell stuff, provided it's good quality.  OTOH, Oskarsson sells some totally bizarre stuff, so somebody must like it enough to make it worthwhile.

Maybe we should collaborate on something, under the name of the Bellamy Brothers.  ;) 

is it not true Sam, that like pieces of art, they have their fans, many a new master or old master is purchased and never sees the light of day, often for investment, but also because people get a kick out of collecting pieces by artist X....... Maybe the same is true of some Poser/Daz/Modo/Max etc items, there are those who will purchase an item and add it to their collection and often it may never see the light of day. If that is the case, my invisible low res morphing figure should make us a fortune :) The texturing was a doddle........

:lol:

Another thought, Monkeycloud, you and me go into partnership and call ourselves Mystic Monkey Therapy.  :D 

if we need a python script, we can become the notoriously unpleasant

Snarly mystic monkey therapy, and if we don't sell any models, we can always offer counselling to frustrated semi professional hobbyist artists :thumbupboth:

Yep.  Such as, "Give up now, you're crap".  :lol:

Since where on the subject anyways.

Poser vender
http://jhoagland.wordpress.com/2012/05/09/advice-for-online-vendors-ii-some-selling-truths-exposed/
You going to stay at a payless job for 10 years ?

The one response.

http://3dexport.com/blog/2011/10/how-to-make-over-50-000-dollars-a-year-selling-3d-models-tips-from-a-top-seller/
Would you work on the left side of the street for a $100 a year knowing you could make $50,000 a year on the right side of the street ?

So I'm going to say
A hobbyist are the people that buy Poser content.
A pro are the ones selling Poser content ,making $50,000 a year.

I suspect a reasonable proportion of vendors are essentially hobbyists who are selling to recoup the bit of extra money they need to pay for their hobby?

I was intrigued to read the one comment on Hoaglands web article....does it offer an insight into the very question that the OP raised? or is it purely sour grapes...these aren't my words, so please no hatemail..................................................... Quote

"Why not tell the WHOLE truth here?  You left out the part about other vendors in this industry who do everything in their power to cut your throat and leave you lying on the floor bleeding to death.  HA!  One less potential vendor!

Don’t leave out the part about the vendors who hate those who “only do this for fun while I have to depend on it to eat” and the ones who would rather slit their OWN throats before sharing knowledge with a potential vendor!

Tell these folks just exactly what they are walking into.  It’s an ugly, nasty industry.  You’ll not get out with all your limbs intact."

Quote - if we need a python script, we can become the notoriously unpleasant

Snarly mystic monkey therapy, and if we don't sell any models, we can always offer counselling to frustrated semi professional hobbyist artists :thumbupboth:

As long as we can automate the proposed counselling service, using interactive Poser-generated avatars, and a simple AI engine, I'm in

I can even make an iPhone app version, and use that IOS Developer account, that I've not used to publish anything with yet, due to having to rework an entire app to take account of changes to the underlying os' mapping system... :crying:

...ah... hang on, I think that app store might just be significantly more heavily contended / saturated than the 3d content marketplace is???

:lol:

monkeycloud : I am trying to make a comic ,On a huge budget of ...drum roll...$000.00.
One way was to make content for the comic and sell it. to buy other content for the comic.
I was trying to figure out if I would make enuff to buy any content.
Starting vendors are hobbyist for the most part ,but if you sell sexy panties for years and years then your make good.
I don't care to just make Vicky content.

mysticeagle : I thought all of it was a good read. why I posted it I guess.
The comenter ,They used the name exvender , one coment is not that helpful.
Need more coments.

Monkey, i think i've cracked it : we make  illustrated virtual mesh  mobile phone covers for the people that can't afford an IPhone, but like the prestige of showing their virtual accessories to their friends on their ancient stone tablets size console phones, then, and this is the clever bit, the other half of the "company" offers them counselling to help with the feeling of stupidity they are suffering in purchasing non existent items.

It's win win.........

My point in the last post, I guess, was that most marketplaces tend to be fairly bustling.

In large part this is what draws people back to them. But its what can make them a difficult place to sell (and indeed buy) in too...

The trick for a vendor to work out is, as ever, how to stand out and really sell their stuff... I guess? How to construct a robust enough soapbox. Choice of loudhailer, patter... and before all that, what might sell.

I suspect there's a reasonable chance if the stuff you're making for your own requirements, making a comic, is not otherwise available... or available at the quality you can make it to, then you're in with a fighting chance?

You might be looking at having to sell two copies of an item to buy one similarly priced, by the sounds of it. Pretty standard sort of economics there though... well actually it's a pretty good cut, relative to a lot of marketplaces, I think... e.g. the record industry perhaps?

If you're needing the items anyway yourself, you've lost nothing by making them?

The pro think they need expensive software otherwise they're not really a pro and the hobbyist are clever enough to use/buy software that suit them and they can work with well and get the results they want.

Quote - Monkey, i think i've cracked it : we make  illustrated virtual mesh  mobile phone covers for the people that can't afford an IPhone, but like the prestige of showing their virtual accessories to their friends on their ancient stone tablets size console phones, then, and this is the clever bit, the other half of the "company" offers them counselling to help with the feeling of stupidity they are suffering in purchasing non existent items.

It's win win.........

He he... even my 9 month old is no longer falling for the old fake-an-iphone-using-an-old-hardshell-case trick...

...but that could only mean more success for the flipside counselling service, in your business model, I guess?

Quote - The pro think they need expensive software otherwise they're not really a pro and the hobbyist are clever enough to use/buy software that suit them and they can work with well and get the results they want.

LOL damn, you figured it out! Except for the part where if you don't know how to use the pro software, then you aren't getting a job in a pro studio, no matter how good your skills are in wings3D or blender. And they're not going to waste time teaching you, or waiting for you to learn it. They'll just tell you to try again when you know how to use 3DS or Maya (those are the big 2 that most studios use one or the other of, if not both). 

Some studios are incorporating blender into their pipeline recently, but they still require proficiency in max or maya. That's why schools teach max or maya, and not wings3d or blender. 

ETA: If you're freelance then it doesn't matter what software you use, so long as you can convert to whatever format the client requires.

~Shane

"It’s an ugly, nasty industry. You’ll not get out with all your limbs intact."

Hmm, that could be used to describe politics, pro sports (NFL Bounty system) or anything else where money and/or ego are involved.

Quote - "It’s an ugly, nasty industry. You’ll not get out with all your limbs intact."

Hmm, that could be used to describe politics, pro sports (NFL Bounty system) or anything else where money and/or ego are involved.

It could be used to describe certain jumble (rummage) sales I've been to...

"Except for the part where if you don't know how to use the pro software, then you aren't getting a job in a pro studio, no matter how good your skills are in wings3D or blender. And they're not going to waste time teaching you, or waiting for you to learn it. They'll just tell you to try again when you know how to use 3DS or Maya (those are the big 2 that most studios use one or the other of, if not both).

Some studios are incorporating blender into their pipeline recently, but they still require proficiency in max or maya. That's why schools teach max or maya, and not wings3d or blender. "

Quoted for complete & absolute agreement! ..well said Shane.

Cheers

If I knew 3DS or Maya good enough to get a job in a studio I wouldn't be stupid enough to take the job.

Why are they using Blender in there pipe line ?

"Why are they using Blender in there pipe line ?"

I personally do not know of any Major  north American Visual effects company using Blender
But if you want to know why any company in general would use blender then
HAVE  A LOOK.

Cheers