don´t understand ?? Genesis benefits are so much nicer .. am I wrong ??

a) some people LIKE V4..and for that matter, V3 or V2 or V1

b) Not everyone can use Genesis - which requires DS4 or with DSON Poser 9 or Pro2012 - or wants to

Personally, I LOVE Genesis, but I think it's wonderful that people still create things for older products and for other characters - more variety = more happiness in the 3d world :)

Short answer - yes, you are wrong. ;)

This is the Poser forum, not the DS forum.

We have multiple threads on the pros & cons of the grey golum. (and most of them have been locked, because it is impossible to have a rational dicussion about the golum here, or anywhere else, for that matter.)

The Poser community doesn't appear to believe that the pros of the grey golum outweigh the cons.

Use what works best for you, and don't worry about what anyone else thinks.

It's your art.

Some ppl use Poser only (like myself). While Genesis in Poser hasn't really presented me with any problems so far, that's not the case for everyone. It doesn't always work that well for some ppl and their systems. That and the fact that it's slow.

Having said all that, I don't really see much in Genesis that's terribly different than the Gen 4 figures. Some bends still look fairly weird, just in different places. The mesh overall is IMVHO a bit oversmoothed. It is nice tho to be able to use the clothes with any morph. So there are pros and cons.

Besides, it's a a personal choice to use what one wants, yeah? Not what someone else thinks they ought to be using ;).

Laurie

Quote - Short answer - yes, you are wrong. ;)

 

This is the Poser forum, not the DS forum.

We have multiple threads on the pros & cons of the grey golum. (and most of them have been locked, because it is impossible to have a rational dicussion about the golum here, or anywhere else, for that matter.)

The Poser community doesn't appear to believe that the pros of the grey golum outweigh the cons.

Use what works best for you, and don't worry about what anyone else thinks.

 

It's your art.

 

 

 

I've got to respectfully disagree with part of that. "The Poser community" is a pretty vast group, of which I consider myself part, and I like Genesis...and about a million other figures :).  I know there are many Poser users who were really delighted when SM and Daz worked together (yay!) to make Genesis (thanks, referring to it as the "grey golum" made me laugh!) work in Poser as well  :).  And of course, some could care less...

But I definitely agree that people should use what works best for them and not worry about what anyone else thinks.

After all, the idea is to create art - how you do it and what programs or figures you choose to use are just tools to allow us to enjoy what people create :)

I've honestly never understood the arguing (and I'm not suggesting at ALL that you're doing so - just commenting) about this program vs that or this figure vs that...seems like one should be able to say "I like this program or figure because..." without it turning into a fight, but as you say, unfortunately it eventually does...  A little respect for others and their choices, and not putting them down, would go a long way, wouldn't it?

Also keep in mind that in Poser there is a nice Weight-Mapped version of V4 that makes the advantage of Genesis less relevant.

Quote - Also keep in mind that in Poser there is a nice Weight-Mapped version of V4 that makes the advantage of Genesis less relevant.

Except if you don't render women. V4 doesn't do anything for me, weightmapped or not.

Quote - Except if you don't render women. V4 doesn't do anything for me, weightmapped or not.

Yes, but the OP asked explicitly about Victoria, which is in fact a female character.

Cheers.

I still prefer to work with Posette!

why would anyone post that kind of question?

Aiko3 4eva :wub:

Genesis with the DSON importer is pretty slow when you use more than one character. Lots of clothing and some morphs do not convert well when imported via DSON or just does not look very good. So it is a lot easier and faster to use gen4 figures in Poser as using a DSONed genesis. I regularly use a single genesis, but only when I see a need for it.

So most of my purchases go to gen4 based items and I do hope that the majority of items here remains gen4. Maybe it will change some day, but for now it is simply not good enough in Poser

I run Poser 7. Its a hobby , so the money to upgrade to Pro2012 is simply not there. I only have Poser 7 because of a successful product and a grateful vendor. (some technical help by me) Genesis and weight mapped figures are not an option for me , so I have not paid much attention to the discussions about them. Daz studio 4 simply does not run , and several questions to Daz got me no answers about what is wrong. I doubt I am getting everything out of Poser 7 so I dont feel I need a more complicated version that I wont get a lot out of either.

Really?  Should we just lock this thread now?

i've never been able to understand why the subject attracts so much contraversy? I don't see the same level of harsh disagreement when we discuss zbrush to poser, 3dmax created meshes, clothing created in c4d, blender or any other program.

I personally think like posts above it is purely a matter of preference, and I don't believe I have the right to criticise anyone for their personal preference of opinion, I can agree to disagree on certain topics but that doesn't make me right or you wrong :)   Peace out :)

Here we go again...........

All the best.

LROG

Oh dear. 

Ask yourself this -Are your pictures any good?

A) If not, does it really matter what figure you use? 

B) If so, does it really matter what figure you use?

Get my point?

I'm now using a bit of everything at my disposal...

...a bit of Daz Gen4... V4, both weight mapped and standard, a bit of Gen5, a bit of Miki4, Tyler, Anastasia and Shae, and Michelle... Kez WM... Antonia... Angela even, Laurie ;-)

...and that's just the human figures.

As stated, its about making artwork... I just use whatever's quickest and most suitable to get a result, based on the content I have. 

The DSON Importer still doesnt perform well enough for some things, for me.

But I'm hopeful it'll improve with future builds... it's improved build 1.0.0.13 to 1.0.0.27, hoping to see the next build soon? I hope Daz and SM continue to cooperate on aligning the tech. Not being able to use the Queue Manager with DSON stuff is a major limitation really... aside from being limited, more so than if not using DSON stuff, in terms of the amount of content that can be used in a scene.

Quote - Oh dear. 

Ask yourself this -Are your pictures any good?

A) If not, does it really matter what figure you use? 

B) If so, does it really matter what figure you use?

Get my point?

I'd like to add:

C) Stop worrying about what others use. It is your art.

Work with whatever characters and software you want.

Just make sure you enjoy what you do.

All systems and characters have their good and bad points, it's all personal choice.

With all the things going off recently in the world, silly things like what software and characters are the best is of no real meaning.

No doubt I will be slated for saying it, but never mind, I had to do it.

All the best and think of all the good things you have, while others don't.

LROG

I love threads like this one. People get so

mad over the littlest thing. This is super great.

• butters popcorn* :woot: pulls up chair

"Unsubscribes, having Lost Interest".

Oh god not again......please....anything.....

Quote - > Quote - Except if you don't render women. V4 doesn't do anything for me, weightmapped or not.

Yes, but the OP asked explicitly about Victoria, which is in fact a female character.

Cheers.

Still V4 or V4WM  won't solve the issues associated with custom body shapes and clothing which genesis does pretty well. Not an issue if all you want to make is naked renders. ;)

In the end, it's not something essential to life, so who really cares.

All the best.

LROG

It's the ones who actually try to keep the thread going that I find entertaining...  :tt2:

As the OP can see, asking such a question is like giving a loaded gun to an infant, nothing good will come of it.  But you should understand when a primary content vendor decides to develop their own system after years of supporting the other guy, feathers will get ruffled.  Resentment sets in, then bitterness and finally us vs them.  As some of the others mentioned, it is high time to just use what works for you and forget comparing the differences between the applications and content.  Art is the final goal, don't open old wounds which will eventually lock this thread.

Quote - It's the ones who actually try to keep the thread going that I find entertaining...  :tt2:

I like the irony in that post Outlaw ;-)

I think the real question, at this time of year, is which figure, out of V4 or V5, has the best Ms Santa Claus mini-skirt outfit?

Seriously... I'm keen to know...??

Otherwise, I'm figure agnostic... but I do believe this 3d art making, whatever you choose to use, can be a lot of fun though.

I've looked at using genesis and even making clothes for it. I've got DS4.5 installed, use it to test the content I create in. I've got this dson thing downloaded, but didn't install it. Still using older figures why? Since there are extra steps involved to use genesis and no extra steps involved to use my current figures. The steps involved to use genesis in poser take time and an effort to learn. I could make time, but there are so many things I'd still like to do. I could make time to learn, but I'm not looking forward to having to learn all these steps, there are so many things I still want to learn that are much more important to me.

Then I look at V4/M4 compare them to genesis and wonder why I even want genesis at all, they're very close and I haven't found a huge reason to leave my old ways and join the new, especially not after reading how disheartening and frustrating the whole proces can be. If the road was easy I would switch, but there are still many holes and bumps in this road.

Give me a Poser  OBJECT file and a Poser CR2.

Genesis / DSON has neither of those.

File sizes are HUGE for what they bring.

Talking toes and talking fingertips included.
Just spin the "AA" morph in the head while looking at the fingertips or toes.

Quality?
The ONLY thing she has compared to other figures is even poly distribution.
But? That is the ONLY advantage she has.

I don't want to lock this one and it doesn't have to turn into an argument thread if everyone just keeps it to personal opinion and not criticism of other opinions.  A thread like this could be informative if someone is on the fence on whether to go with genesis or not.  

Personally, I have too much V3/V4 to even begin to consider genesis.  I just don't want to deal with it and I'm not ready to spend the money on yet another figure along with all new clothes/hair/textures/etc to go with it so that's my reason.  :)

The main reason I still use V4, despite having V5 at my disposal now, is character morphs.

I have a lot of character morphs collected that I really like for V4.

The financial cost of gearing up to be able to convert those to work with Genesis in Poser, never mind all the effort required, is substantial...

...if it was possible to load them to Genesis without the extra expense and effort, that would certainly encourage me to use it more.

Just the head / face morphs would do me in most cases even. Surely Daz could make the process for using M4/V4/K4 etc. character morphs with Genesis much easier and less costly, in terms of both time and money?

If it was just effort but not cost, or vice versa, even that would be better...

Right Kendra, most Poser users are way over their point of no return in V4 investment.

Plus that DSON thing did not make it easy. Half hit and run.

My personal opinion is that Gene should stay where she works best and where she belongs; in DS.

Every animal has its habitat, and it should stay there.

I like Genesis, and V5.  Like Vilters said, though, I have WAAY more stuff for V4.  Additionally, even with the DSON, which is pretty bloody cool; setup time for a scene is incredibly long, clothes don't always transfer from DaZ Studio properly, and I can simply get things done faster with V4.  One thing I have found with 3D in general is that it is very time consuming, no matter what program or platform you chose to use.  Fun though!

I am another one who has too much invested in V4 and what time I have I would like to use to try and create better renders.  The time and finacial outlay for Genesis far outweigh any benefit in my view.  I use V4WM and, despite a comment earlier in this thread, I do not do renders of a naked V4 as a rule, in fact I have only done one in the six or so years I have been using Poser.  I have no problem with clothing V4WM thanks to the hard work of those who created the WM version and Outfitter.

The only effect Genesis has had on me really is that I no longer buy content at Daz3d, nothing at all in the last 6 months and only two items since Genesis. 

Quote - I don't want to lock this one and it doesn't have to turn into an argument thread if everyone just keeps it to personal opinion and not criticism of other opinions.  A thread like this could be informative if someone is on the fence on whether to go with genesis or not.

Well, perhaps somewhat ironically, half of the posts in the thread are about how such threads are just the basis for flame wars, while the other posts generally are evenhanded. So everyone's talking about a flame war that isn't even happening. :)

Not saying of course that it couldn't happen; goodness knows that most threads of this character seem to have gone that direction.

Anyway: I think the I-have-a-huge-V4-inventory already mentioned is probably the biggest factor. Most of the biggest Genesis advantages seem to be DS-specific, so there is less motivation for strictly-Poser users to make the jump.

But...people had huge V3 inventories but still moved to V4.  (I think I still have more V3/M3 stuff than V4/M4.)

I just don't want to deal with DSON.  It's in the early days, and may well improve.  But I just don't trust DAZ to keep developing it.  If they iron out the bugs, I may jump on board.  But I'm not going to invest in Genesis in hopes that they do.  I think they may be a little overextended.  Bryce, Carrara, DS, Hexagon...it's a lot for a small company.

I kind of like the idea of being able to share DNA.  But it's not that different from the unimesh and morph injections of a couple of generations ago. 

Clothing is really not much of an issue any more, with Wardrobe Wizard.  It will handle morphed body shapes, as well as convert among figures Genesis can't.  The switchable UVs are kind of cool, though UTC does something similar. 

I don't think Genesis bends any better than weight-mapped V4. I love the way Antonia and Tyler bend, and I hope we'll get weight-mapped M4 eventually (and even the Gen 3 characters, maybe?)

Plus, I use Vue a lot, and Vue still doesn't play well with Genesis.

At the moment, there's nothing Genesis offers that make it a must-have for me. 

But people should definitely stop making stuff for V4.  It makes me spend too much money!  ;-)

I would really like Genesis to work.

But it doesn't.

So from a purely personal point of view, I don't understand why anybody bothers making anything for Genesis.

I'm too pooped for a parable, though the season is right, so I'll cut to the chase. Money. All the other reasons are subsidiary. It is quite likely that Geni/V5 will eventually supplant V4. For the moment, V4 is keeping the throne warm and ensuring that the unlikely event that of one of the other supposedly superior figures will play usurper doesn't come to pass. Vickie is Vickie, one uberwench to rule them all - Amen.

                   HE MUST BURN FOR HIS BLASPHEMOUS TRANSGRESSION!

Just kidding.

Wish I could use Genesis, but I can't... Besides I've plenty to keep me busy with the things I do have.

Genesis victoria has less polys than v4. You're supposed to go up in geometry not down.

I use both Poser and DS. I like some features of both and wish I could use one for everything.

Quote - Genesis victoria has less polys than v4. You're supposed to go up in geometry not down.

Huh? If the poly's are better placed, you need fewer, right?

Quote -
Still V4 or V4WM  won't solve the issues associated with custom body shapes and clothing which genesis does pretty well. Not an issue if all you want to make is naked renders. ;)

The "projection" stage involved in the DSON Importer conforming an item of clothing is not fast though. It's very slow in fact, I'd have to say. I hope this can be improved.

I'd say, in some cases, it has taken as long for this "projection" stage to complete for me as it can take to run a full Wardrobe Wizard conversion on an item of clothing, relative to the native Poser cr2 based figures... and that obviously creates a new cr2 that can be readily re-used.

Yes, once the "projection" stage completes the fit is pretty good... in many cases... and it does probably cater for all the body shapes without as much user adjustment required.

But its far from being that slick a solution, as yet.

There still seem to be some issues with scaling, relative to Genesis in Poser? I'm seeing what looks like scaling issues trying to use the new Justin and Julie morphs with the DSON Importer. Not with clothing yet, to be fair... but with conforming hair figures (e.g. the Genesis Essentials included hair figures) certainly.

Also, the PCF installers for mac, for these figure morphs seem to be broken. I had to create the dummy cr2 and python files manually, after manually copying the duf and pngs out of the People folder (waiting on a fix to these installers, hopefully, relative to all the included poses). But that's another issue, I guess...

Quote - I'm now using a bit of everything at my disposal... ...a bit of Daz Gen4... V4, both weight mapped and standard, a bit of Gen5, a bit of Miki4, Tyler, Anastasia and Shae, and Michelle... Kez WM... Antonia... Angela even, Laurie ;-)

Wait a minute! Did I mis-read that, is Laurie a new a figure?

I'm glad this thread has managed to stay pretty much on track, and in all fairness has revealed pretty much 2 underlying reasons that go someway to answering the original post. a:) people have so much invested in V4 or other favourites in the runtimes, it is economically unfeasable to favourite another at the this time. b) the dson thing is frustrating some people and tbh, word gets around.

I think the vendor vs vendor argument, the who did what to who, will continue just as the microsoft vs apple kerfuffle, and any other corporate fall out. it doesn't solve anything but just allows people to form factions then we can bash the opposite product with impunity from our pro/anti perspective. Maybe, just maybe one day we will all get along andV4 will walk happily to the altar with her nemesis, all men will be born equal and the kingdom of heaven will have arrived :) Until then, I'll use what i can to achieve the results i want, well sort of anyway..........

Quote - But...people had huge V3 inventories but still moved to V4.  (I think I still have more V3/M3 stuff than V4/M4.)

I think this is a valid point but I also feel that there is also a factor of deminishing returns.  Buy this I mean that, once you reach a certain outlay for something like a Hi-Fi system doubling the price does not double the quality.  In this case Genisis may be better than V4 (and I accept some may still prefer V3 over V4) but the question might more accusratley be asked is the impriovement worth the cost which again comes down to each to their own.

I think, or maybe I just hope, that the heated discussions that a subject like this used to cause are in the past.  Those that want to use Genesis in Poser have a way of doing so even if it is time consuming.  Those that seemed to be pressing for everyone to use Genesis seemed to have accepted that, for many, it is not going to happen. Also the appearance of Genesis appeared to be the drive behind a number of new weight mapped figures further fragmenting the push for a new queen. It could be that no matter how good a figure comes along in the future it will still not have the success of V4 just because the market has moved on. 

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2861023

Best rigging of any commercially available mesh

More natural default shapes for Vicky and Mike.

Unlimited one-click mixing ability between vastly different shapes.

On-the-fly UV-switching, geografted mesh expansions, use of legacy content like 3rd and 4th generation morphs and clothing.

No need for activation or morph injection.

The CONS of Genesis:

Low resolution mesh has less built in body detail.

SubD smoothing has high memory overhead.

Constant presence of all morphs has high memory overhead.

One-size-fits-all rigging unless additional fix morphs were created for that character.

No "full integration" into Poser. Current importer breaks single axis scaling.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

People will have to decide for themselves wether the pros outweighs the cons for them or vice versa.

Personally, I decided I've waited long enough and started weightmapping David-3 and SP3 instead:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2861023

While the DSON-importer is quite remarkable, it is still a far cry from the complete control I have now over my figures in Poser.

I had hoped for the new Genesis teens to be a tipping point for me, but they are quite underwhelming.

So, while still being "mildly interrested in general", I would need to see native full integration into Poser for Genesis to spend more time with it.

Quote - > Quote -

Still V4 or V4WM  won't solve the issues associated with custom body shapes and clothing which genesis does pretty well. Not an issue if all you want to make is naked renders. ;)

The "projection" stage involved in the DSON Importer conforming an item of clothing is not fast though. It's very slow in fact, I'd have to say. I hope this can be improved.

I'd say, in some cases, it has taken as long for this "projection" stage to complete for me as it can take to run a full Wardrobe Wizard conversion on an item of clothing, relative to the native Poser cr2 based figures... and that obviously creates a new cr2 that can be readily re-used.

Yes, once the "projection" stage completes the fit is pretty good... in many cases... and it does probably cater for all the body shapes without as much user adjustment required.

I think the big issue is that the python code really needs to be compiled to be faster, as code that needs to be interpreted is going to be way slower. Also it sounds like you're on the mac, and if you're using a system greater than snow leopard, there are some issues with the graphics subsystem that Smith Micro needs to code for; there are using a workaround, which makes it slower in handling graphics. I use the mac for some of my testing, but since I'm still on Snow Leopard it's not too horrible, however I'll be upgrading next year so those issues will be there.

Also the mac version of python is not on par with the windows version, as scripts that work well on Windows, may have issues on the mac.

Quote - But its far from being that slick a solution, as yet.

Generally the conversions aren't bad, unless the clothing item relies a lot on smoothing and collision, which is  a DS only function. 

Quote - There still seem to be some issues with scaling, relative to Genesis in Poser? I'm seeing what looks like scaling issues trying to use the new Justin and Julie morphs with the DSON Importer. Not with clothing yet, to be fair... but with conforming hair figures (e.g. the Genesis Essentials included hair figures) certainly.

What I've seen with hair is morphs being generated with the eyelashes which throws off the hair. I know in DS to get the hair working, i have to find those morphs and turn them back off.

Quote - Also, the PCF installers for mac, for these figure morphs seem to be broken. I had to create the dummy cr2 and python files manually, after manually copying the duf and pngs out of the People folder (waiting on a fix to these installers, hopefully, relative to all the included poses). But that's another issue, I guess...

To be honest, I doubt a lot of this stuff was really tested well. The metadata is pretty much broken on mine in DS and i have to find the clothing manually. However I try to make sure my stuff works in Poser (including MAC), including the scaling which I work around by creating a rig adjustment instead of scaling. This way I know my figures works in both programs. It's not that hard to create the adjustment, just requires a little time to make sure the adjusted bones are positioned in the right places so it takes the poses reasonably well.

Quote - > Quote - I'm now using a bit of everything at my disposal... ...a bit of Daz Gen4... V4, both weight mapped and standard, a bit of Gen5, a bit of Miki4, Tyler, Anastasia and Shae, and Michelle... Kez WM... Antonia... Angela even, Laurie ;-)

Wait a minute! Did I mis-read that, is Laurie a new a figure?

He he, I thought that read like that myself after I typed the post ;-)

Quote -
I think the big issue is that the python code really needs to be compiled to be faster, as code that needs to be interpreted is going to be way slower. Also it sounds like you're on the mac, and if you're using a system greater than snow leopard, there are some issues with the graphics subsystem that Smith Micro needs to code for; there are using a workaround, which makes it slower in handling graphics. I use the mac for some of my testing, but since I'm still on Snow Leopard it's not too horrible, however I'll be upgrading next year so those issues will be there.

Also the mac version of python is not on par with the windows version, as scripts that work well on Windows, may have issues on the mac.

Thanks Male_M3dia

Yup, I'm on OS X Lion... so that will presumably explain some of my experiences over others who are reporting it to be apparently better for them, perhaps...

I hope those issues aren't still there by the time you upgrade from Snow Leopard! ;-)

Any idea when the next build is out and if it has been possible for the devs to improve anything in the mac version in current beta builds?

I hear what you're saying about the need for more of it to be precompiled code of course. To be honest I'd imagined a lot of it was already compiled C++(or similar). I can see QTCore stuff in there. But I appreciate there is going to be a degree of python probably bridging the gaps still? I've not spent time looking into how the new Poser add-on framework in SR3.1 hangs together exactly...

As JoePublic posted above too, a much more native integration with Poser is still needing to be achieved really, I expect... I'm hoping that will come over time. Obviously the ground has been opened up here, as I understand it, with the extended API that has made the DSON Importer even possible... along with the forthcoming Reality for Poser... and the assumedly extended dialogue between SM and plugin developers?

But I expect there will be more to-ing and fro-ing between Daz and SM needed in order for certain aspects to really see the kind of improvements that will allow the DSON Importer solution to deliver all it should... that's fair enough in my book... but just means I'm likely to hesitate buying a lot of content for Genesis in Poser, for the time being.

I've been getting bits and pieces to play around with though...

I'll certainly look into that thing with the eyelashes further. As I said... apart from the time it takes to actually run, especially that "projection" stage, the clothing fitting end result is pretty good... at least for the clothing I've tried so far... a lot of which is Gen4, or even Gen3 (well, Gen3 converted for Gen4 using WW first, as I haven't invested yet in Gen 3 Shapes), stuff I've autofitted in DS4.5 and saved in the duf format myself from there.

It was only relative to the hair figures, fitting the new Young Teen morphs, that I've so far run into actual fitting issues there; e.g. fitting the Sally Mae hair works fine for the Basic Child, but just not for the new Julie figure.