I’ve been working on a pose that involves a figure as well as a bow and arrow. The figure is drawing the bow, made possible by a morph that pulls the string back and bends the bow. It was very difficult to position the bow and arrow. Along the way I parented the arrow to the bow and later to the character’s right hand to swivel it into the right position. The bow was parented to the left hand, but it needed to be moved and rotated slightly. I used IK on the character’s right hand to move it into a better position. The bow and arrow are smart props that parent to the left and right hand.

I’d like to make a pose, or poses, to move the bow and arrow to the correct positions in relation to the character that is drawing the bow. My first attempt with the arrow resulted in a pose that does nothing. Is there a way set this sort of thing up as a pose?

Sounds like you've got IK and smart-propping working in opposition.  I'd get rid of the smart-prop parenting and just use IK on both pieces.  Do all the motion with the bow and arrow, and let the respective hands and arms follow along.

Ok, thanks. I'll try that.

I made a couple of bow and arrow images lately. What I did was parent only the bow to the left hand and add the arrow later on, only after I had the perfect pose ready. The arrow wasn't parented to anything at all, just a stand alone prop and that made it much easier for me to work with.

With a lot of the smartpropped bow and arrows I noticed that the base position of the bow is incorrect already. Best thing to do is put the figure in the zeroed position. Give his hand a grasp pose and now check if the bow is attached correctly to the hand. Then move and rotate the bow, until it fits perfectly in the hand. Now you can pose it much better.

Always remember that if we grasp something the items will be slanted in our hands. never straight and a lot of vendors assume that when holding something it's straight in our hands, but it isn't. Through wrist movement we get the item we hold straight. Just hold a stick or hammer in your hand and have a look at it, that've how you should pose the bow when the figure that will use it is in a zeroed position.

Hope this helps a little.

Thanks. I can get the bow and arrow to where they need to be by carefully adjusting things, parenting the bow and arrow to the respective hands and then zeroing the figure. If I save the repostioned props from the zero pose, they will be positioned exactly where required. (I might have to match the original geometry with the repositioned props.) If the bow and arrow are parented to the hands, the figure pose will work. The one problem is that my bow's "draw" morph needs to be set manually. Is there no way around this?

Is there such thing as a "prop pose" that can be applied from the library? A prop pose, (if it existed), would take into account translation, rotation, scaling as well as any prop morphs that are applied.

I'm just trying to optimize this stuff for distribution so that a user won't have to fiddle too much.

Quote - I parent the bow to the figure's left hand, but not the arrow when I do this. I just use multiple camera angles to get the arrow where I want it to be.  This is an image I did several years ago--as evidenced by the horrible lighting--using that technique.

You should update the lighting and rerender it; it's a very nice composition...

Quote - Thanks. I can get the bow and arrow to where they need to be by carefully adjusting things, parenting the bow and arrow to the respective hands and then zeroing the figure. If I save the repostioned props from the zero pose, they will be positioned exactly where required. (I might have to match the original geometry with the repositioned props.) If the bow and arrow are parented to the hands, the figure pose will work. The one problem is that my bow's "draw" morph needs to be set manually. Is there no way around this?

Is there such thing as a "prop pose" that can be applied from the library? A prop pose, (if it existed), would take into account translation, rotation, scaling as well as any prop morphs that are applied.

I'm just trying to optimize this stuff for distribution so that a user won't have to fiddle too much.

I don't think there's a way around this. I've released a couple of medieval toon sets, one had a bow and arrow and the other one a crossbow. Both the draw draw morphs needed to be set by the customer through a dial. I don't think you should be worried about that too much, it's very common to have a morph dials for weapons like these.

Thank you!  I might do that one day, but I'd rendered this in response to a reader's complaint that the buxom heroine in my stories would find firing a bow uncomfortable because "the bowstring would bang into her breast."

That's not true, as this photo of a REAL woman archer reveals.

I've long since stopped arguing about stupidity like this. If people don't want to read my books because of the way I describe my heroine, then by all means, DON'T read them! (Sheesh!) That's why I've not revisited the image.

It's obvious the person making the comment never shot with a bow and arrow at all! I've hunted with bow and arrow (as well as a crossbow) and even though as a man, I lack breasts :lol: , I know that if the bowstring hits your breasts, or any other part of your body for that matter, you're doing something awefully wrong.

But if I remember correctly, the arrow is supposed to hit things, it's been a while though :tongue1

I still remember shooting with a self-build crossbow the first time, that was awesome.... until the arrow ended up in my younger brothers foot.... oops.

I think her boobs look fine, it's just her arrow that's a bit skinny.

Quote - It's obvious the person making the comment never shot with a bow and arrow at all! I've hunted with bow and arrow (as well as a crossbow) and even though as a man, I lack breasts :lol: , I know that if the bowstring hits your breasts, or any other part of your body for that matter, you're doing something awefully wrong.

I think it's more likely the person making the comment HAS shot a bow (a recurve or olympic style bow) and knows that if you do it right the string skims your breast and then peels your forearm on every shot.  That's why recurve archers, men and women, wear a chest protector (google "olympic archery", it looks like half a sports bra).

A compound bow (like the girl in the photo is shooting - and what fine form she has!) is much shorter from top to bottom, so the string doesn't touch you. 

You're right, but I've only been hunting with the more compact bows (as the girl in the render does), since I'm not to tall myself, so I never had the problem of the string reaching that far back.

Quote - Thanks. I can get the bow and arrow to where they need to be by carefully adjusting things, parenting the bow and arrow to the respective hands and then zeroing the figure. If I save the repostioned props from the zero pose, they will be positioned exactly where required. (I might have to match the original geometry with the repositioned props.) If the bow and arrow are parented to the hands, the figure pose will work. The one problem is that my bow's "draw" morph needs to be set manually. Is there no way around this?

Is there such thing as a "prop pose" that can be applied from the library? A prop pose, (if it existed), would take into account translation, rotation, scaling as well as any prop morphs that are applied.

I'm just trying to optimize this stuff for distribution so that a user won't have to fiddle too much.

you could make a MOR pose to set the morph at various numbers.  you see them a lot with Hair style poses

Has anyone successfully made an animation of a Figure drawing and firing a bow and arrow? I have tried but have been unsuccessful in making it work to any degree of realism.I know that there a lot of commercial products ot there.I do not know how they do it! Cheers

"Among Classical Greeks, amazon was given a popular etymology as from a-mazos, "without breast", connected with an etiological tradition that Amazons had their right breast cut off or burnt out, so they would be able to throw their javelins;[7] there is no indication of such a practice in works of art, in which the Amazons are always represented with both breasts, although the left is frequently covered (see photos in article)." from Wikipedia definition Amazons.

Quote - > Quote - You should update the lighting and rerender it; it's a very nice composition...

Thank you!  I might do that one day, but I'd rendered this in response to a reader's complaint that the buxom heroine in my stories would find firing a bow uncomfortable because "the bowstring would bang into her breast."

That's not true, as this photo of a REAL woman archer reveals.

I've long since stopped arguing about stupidity like this. If people don't want to read my books because of the way I describe my heroine, then by all means, DON'T read them! (Sheesh!) That's why I've not revisited the image.

helpful photo reference - notice the muscle bump in her right arm

Archery images seem to draw out the archers for criticism.  A recent project I did was an archery scene, and it took hours of fiddling with the bow and arrow to get everything into place so that it at least looked nice, and pretty much the only comment on the project was a comment about how no one would shoot like that.  It'll be a while before I bother with an archery image again.

Quote - Archery images seem to draw out the archers for criticism. 

I think that's only natural, in archery technique is everything, and there's generally a good reason why one way is right and another way is wrong. Archery forums always have "please critique my form" threads where people post photos of themselves, most competent archers can spot bad form really easily. So an improbable archery pose is about as obvious as a cowboy facing the wrong way on a horse would be.

Quote - It'll be a while before I bother with an archery image again.

I've only ever done this one, I found it really difficult to get V4 to bend how I wanted her to, I couldn't get the appearance of tension into her draw arm and hand. I think it would need custom muscle morphs, there are some interesting things that happen to the muscles of the forearm at full draw.

Quote - I'm just trying to optimize this stuff for distribution so that a user won't have to fiddle too much.

I take it then that the bow and arrow are you own creation, though you don't actually say so.

Quote - It was very difficult to position the bow and arrow.

The position of the origin for both the bow and the arrow will make a big difference in how easy they are to pose. I would suggest that for the bow, the origin should be level with the top of the bow hand, and of course on the vertical center line of the grip. The origin for the arrow should be at the point where the notch in the arrow touches the string.

Quote - I’d like to make a pose, or poses, to move the bow and arrow to the correct positions in relation to the character that is drawing the bow. My first attempt with the arrow resulted in a pose that does nothing. Is there a way set this sort of thing up as a pose?... Is there such thing as a "prop pose" that can be applied from the library? A prop pose, (if it existed), would take into account translation, rotation, scaling as well as any prop morphs that are applied.

If the bow is parented to some part of a figure, you can save a pose for the figure, using 'Select subset' to include only the bow in the pose (if the arrow is parented to the bow it will move with it). Such positioning poses will co course be specific to a particular figure. A pose to position the bow for Jessi will not position it correctly for Antonia. Translation and rotation data will be included in the pose by default. Scaling data is not included in a pose saved in Poser, but will be used if you manually edit the data into the pz2. Note that the prop will need to be parented to a figure before the pose can be applied, (assuming the bow is a prop) it should not matter if it is the prop or part of the figure that is the selected item when the pose is applied.

Quote - The one problem is that my bow's "draw" morph needs to be set manually. Is there no way around this?

Not that I can think of off the top of my head. You would want the notch point on the string to move with the rHand, but the position of the hand depends on every joint between the hand and hip, so no simple slaving relationship could do the job. If the bow was a figure it might be possible to do something using IK, but even then I'm not sure it could be made to work.

If you were applying a pose to the figure, the pose could include an appropriate value for the draw morph. This would require some editing of the pz2.

The position of the arrow relative to the string is another matter. Providing that the arrow is parented to the bow, it should be trivial to keep the arrow touching the notch point on the string whilst the bow is drawn. Determine how far the arrow needs to move (in Poser native Units), then just slave the relevant translation channel of the arrow to the morph channel in the bow, using the value you determined in the 'deltaAddDelta' line of the slaving code.

Quote - I've only ever done this one, I found it really difficult to get V4 to bend how I wanted her to, I couldn't get the appearance of tension into her draw arm and hand. I think it would need custom muscle morphs, there are some interesting things that happen to the muscles of the forearm at full draw.

This is STUNNING!  Beautifully done!

:)

Thanks  ;-)

I think in terms of posing, your draw arm got closer to what I was trying to achieve than mine did, in mine her wrist should have been a bit lower to get the fingers more in line with the arrow. I was pleased with the rest of the image though.

The attached image has graced the opening page of my web site since January.  It's the same girl, with the same bow and arrow, but a totally different pose. What makes this sort of thing particularly difficult is the fine tuning of the arrow relative to the bow and the draw string. It takes a lot of fiddling to line everything up. Patience is key.

* *

Yeah, the no frills bow and arrow props are mine. I made them for the “Renithra,” which is an original figure that I’ve created – much more difficult than the bow…lol.  Costume and hair and textures are mine too.

Once I had the arrow and the bow positioned for a workable grip and smart parented to the default figure it became easier to create bow and arrow poses. I still have to align the arrow with the string and bow, but IK helps in this regard. The hand pops when I turn off IK, but I can find the right position again. Once the poses are saved, they can be applied to the figure bow and arrow will line up. The string morph still needs to be applied. 

Beautiful! :-)

Quote - > Quote - You should update the lighting and rerender it; it's a very nice composition...

Thank you!  I might do that one day, but I'd rendered this in response to a reader's complaint that the buxom heroine in my stories would find firing a bow uncomfortable because "the bowstring would bang into her breast."

That's not true, as this photo of a REAL woman archer reveals.

I've long since stopped arguing about stupidity like this. If people don't want to read my books because of the way I describe my heroine, then by all means, DON'T read them! (Sheesh!) That's why I've not revisited the image.

Very well done Paloth!

Quote - I take it then that the bow and arrow are you own creation, though you don't actually say so.

* *

Yeah, the no frills bow and arrow props are mine. I made them for the “Renithra,” which is an original figure that I’ve created – much more difficult than the bow…lol.  Costume and hair and textures are mine too.

 

Once I had the arrow and the bow positioned for a workable grip and smart parented to the default figure it became easier to create bow and arrow poses. I still have to align the arrow with the string and bow, but IK helps in this regard. The hand pops when I turn off IK, but I can find the right position again. Once the poses are saved, they can be applied to the figure bow and arrow will line up. The string morph still needs to be applied. 

Had asked one time for an 'amazon' morph, just to demonstrate what greek work actual means...;) Seem to remember that there are different draws, fingerings (one requiring middle finger, which is real reason for 'shoot bird'; to demonstrate one can still draw a bow...;)

Took archery once. Low-strength on bow; often pulled arrow to even with ear. Have been told that in Persia there was a  'pinch' way of holding the arrow. Not sure if that is helping...

:)

I just realized that I've been putting the arrow to the right of the bow when every picture I can find shows the arrow rests on the left. I've already changed the poses, but I'm wondering if there is a techincal reason for this position? Is it possible to shoot a bow properly when the arrow rests on the right?

Quote - I just realized that I've been putting the arrow to the right of the bow when every picture I can find shows the arrow rests on the left. I've already changed the poses, but I'm wondering if there is a techincal reason for this position? Is it possible to shoot a bow properly when the arrow rests on the right?

In a fantasy-type render you can probably please yourself because precedent exists for both.

In most western/European traditional archery the arrow rests on the first knuckle of the index finger, (to the left of the bow for a right handed archer). Tilting the bow stops the arrow slipping off the knuckle (in your render the tilt would cause it to fall off). Modern bows stick to that  pattern, there's now an arrow rest on the centerline of the bow (the bow itself is now sorta notched to clear the arrow, or even split), but the arrow is still loaded to the left of the bow.

In Japanese Kyudo the arrow rests on the thumb (so it's on the right of the bow for a right handed archer). There's lots about kyudo that looks really strange to a western-style archer, like the draw is about 5 inches past the ear, whereas a western bow is drawn to around the chin.

Edited to add: You'd also typically have 3 fingers on the string - 1 above the arrow and 2 below. Two fingers is possible, but it's really hard on the fingers if the bow is powerful. The little finger  can't reach the string.

It's too late to edit my post. I wanted to add: 

If you're basing the pose on Asiatic style archery (Arrow on the right, resting on the thumb), then to be consistent the string should be drawn using the other thumb, not 3 fingers.

Thanks for the information, obm890.