[quote[I am sure the 2nd & 3rd rate vendors will whine about this (like they whine about everything else), but at some point, we have to let Poser 4 and the 20th century go.

That is very easy for you to say, you don't depend on sales. I'd love to let Poser 4 go and offically my products do not support Poser 4 anymore, only poser 6 and up. BUT...... yes there's a huge BUT. If I want my products to be DS compatible without knowing too much about DS, I still need to think and build content the Poser 4 way. DS is a hopelessly outdated application, it's only Poser 4 compatible when it comes to materials. Unless I'm going to build my materials in DS from scratch, but I'm not going to do so. I do not wish to learn DS at all. So vendors who want their products to be DS compatible without knowing too much of DS, are stuck in Poser 4 mode or lose a lot of customers.

Now I agree that vendors should include mc6 mats as well and all the other things you've stated. But leaving Poser 4 in the past is hard to do for a vendor. Unless you make the same choice as I've done lately...... drop DS support completely. I want my products to move on, not be in the past. So it's either learn DS or drop support. I have no desire at all to learn and use DS and to be honest, I've got better things to do in live then learn an application I don't even like or want. On top of that the hostile attitude DAZ still has towards Poser users and also against non-DAZ vendors, is not very stimulating for me to use DS. So, sorry DS users, you have to get your DS toon items somewhere else from now on, I'm focussing 100% on Poser. Perhaps more vendors should do so, but that may mean a loss of customers to them. For me it worked out fine, I don't seem to be loosing out to many sales. Yes, part of my long time customers are very unhappy and stopped buying, but new ones have come also, so it works out evenly.

Can we keep this discussion about Dawn please? Don't feel like people starting a debate about apps and customers and the market based on personal experience.

Couldn't edit my last post but I wanted to add this. By keeping old support, you give no reason for users to upgrade or change. Sometimes you have to give them a push in order to keep the market up to date. If that means forcing out the old support for the new, then so be it. If not, the market will not progress at all. There are a lot more new users than old, and its a fact that new users tend to spend more money on content. And new users aren't going to buy P4, they are going to start out with a more recent version of Poser. P4 support? Come on....Thats like me releasing a new fancy game that must have dos compatability. People have no issues upgrading their phones etc, so why must old support for this market be given special treatment? It is part of the problem, not the solution.

Where can I get Mec4D's morphs for Dawn?  At her store?

(I gather we are no longer allowed to link, but you can tell me the store, I think.)

I love Trekkie's morph pack.  It's fantastic.

I do think Hivewire needs to produce a "standard" morph pack, so people can more easily share characters (for free or for sale), but there's enough now that Dawn doesn't need to look the same in every render.

Morphologia  is available at mec4d dot com.  HiveWire says their morph pack should be out in November.

Thank you!

I'm off to photograph a doggie Halloween costume party, but I'll definitely check out the Mec4D store when I get back.

And that's great news about Hivewire's morph pack.

Quote - Couldn't edit my last post but I wanted to add this. By keeping old support, you give no reason for users to upgrade or change. Sometimes you have to give them a push in order to keep the market up to date. If that means forcing out the old support for the new, then so be it. If not, the market will not progress at all. There are a lot more new users than old, and its a fact that new users tend to spend more money on content. And new users aren't going to buy P4, they are going to start out with a more recent version of Poser. P4 support? Come on....Thats like me releasing a new fancy game that must have dos compatability. People have no issues upgrading their phones etc, so why must old support for this market be given special treatment? It is part of the problem, not the solution.

Because...if this happens you will hear the weeping and gnashing of teeth like has never happened in the universe. LOL.

I've suggested this before at least the last two versions of Poser and was ultimately shot down because people were upset at not being able to use their 13 year old content (which they almost never do anyway, but that's another argument) LOL.

One of the main gripes is "Urgh! I've gotta buy a whole suite of content all over again!" Like you said...funny how people won't even give that a thought when it comes to phones, computers, tvs, etc....but moan that Poser stuff is overpriced (almost like they're entitled to low prices). It's always been  my way that if I can't afford something I'll do without it or find a way to pay for it. Been doing that since Vicky version 1 ;).

A lot of folks aren't gonna like what I've just said, but it's how I've felt for years. Time marches on and progress is progress. I'll willingly trade my old, tired content for a little progress ;).

Having said that, I'd rather have my progress in Poser because that's what I know and I'm too old to be completely relearning new software at this point ;).

Laurie

Quote - By keeping old support, you give no reason for users to upgrade or change. Sometimes you have to give them a push in order to keep the market up to date. If that means forcing out the old support for the new, then so be it. If not, the market will not progress at all.

Are we to determine what people want now, if someone is happy with an older version, so what? I'm on PP2012. I had no intention to upgrade from PP2010, but SM made me an offer I could not refuse, so I upgraded in the end. I'm looking at PP2014..... I don not see even one reason for me to upgrade, not even if they made me another offer I can't refuse. I've got a mix of old and new software, some I don't intend to upgrade at all, don't need to. I know some people upgrade everything, but why waste money on stuff I don't need.

Back to Dawn, same with her. In some way she's progress, in other ways she's regress. I don't need her, so I'm not going to use her and am not going to invest into her at all. If that means I'm standing in the way of progress according to some and keeping a market back, so be it :-)

And this is why new figures like Dawn will struggle to take off. Because people preffer to stay with old versions of Poser. Imagined everybody had a version that supported WM, and what a difference the sales numbers would be for new figure content support because more people have access to it. But like you said, some prefer old versions of Poser, because they are still catered for, meaning less will bother to try new WM figures, meaning they have an even smaller chance of survival. This to me causes a bigger split than the one between SM and DAZ. The Poser market is too fragmented. DAZ solved that issue by making DS free, insuring the bulk of users are on the same version, meaning content developers don't have to worry with ancient support because most users are all trying out the new and shiny. And those who do complain are the vocal minority, and have no real bearing on sales on the larger scale of things.

"DAZ solved that issue by making DS free..."

Well, yes, but they're busy creating another rift with their new HD stuff between those who can afford shiny new 16GB RAM machines and those who can't.

(I tried to go to the required SubD 3 with Vicky6, but no chance on my puny 4GB laptop. Guess genuine high res meshes still rule.)  ;-)

Not to mention the rift they already created between Genesis I and II users.

99.99% of the stuff I use I have to rebuild anyway, so deleting some .rsr files and making new skin shaders is no biggy for me.

OTOH I don't want to hear Poser 6 users whining why they can't use weightmapped figures or other newfangled stuff.

But Dawn would have been a dead end anyway, simply because her mesh topology doesn't allow any serious further development.

IMO the best incentive for people to upgrade is to build a figure that is truly outstanding, both technically as well as aesthetically.

Had Genesis worked in Poser right from the start, I bet a lot of diehard P6/7 users would have upgraded just to be able to use it.

SM could have achieved the same effect by adding truly outstanding new figures to Poser, but noone will upgrade from Poser 6/7/8 just so he can switch from V4 to Roxy.

Yes, unfortunately HD morphs in Poser is slow because to see the results you have to sub-d the mesh before rendering. In Daz it shows results at render time so there is no slowdown (unless you want to preview the hd morph before rendering, then you dial up the sub-d levels), so you do not need a new rig. It's like rendering Displacement maps, but its a morph. And yes I agree, Poser needs to give users a reason to Switch to the new versions. Most thought Dawn would be it (I remember when they thought Rex and Roxie was it as well), but I think more promises were made than actual delivery with regards to Dawn. And her topology is also an issue for me. People wont upgrade for new tools alone, they want a new figure to showcase the new version, one that reflects the technology available.

I was excited by Dawn during the development but got tired of the hype even before the model was released.

Sure, I downloaded and tested it out but I couldnt make myself like the model.

It doesnt bother me to spend money on a character, but this one, no...

plus there is one thing im not proud of, im having a hard time coping with Hivewire3d's holy attitude, feels like a partner to Daz3d.

To date I've only made morphs for V4, M4 and Dawn with Zbrush.

The only downside of extreme displacement mapping is pokethrough. You won't get that with HD morphs. The clothing will follow. Also controlling a morph is simpler than controlling a Displacement map over multiple areas. One slider controls all details, instead of having to adjust the displacement in each group if it spans across multiple body parts.

Quote - I don't see any impact at all, frankly.

First, we're almost 90 days out from release and still no "morphs ++" which means Dawn is static and hardly usable for me.  I don't like her appearance, nor do I like lots of her body parts - oh, those shoulders and that joker smile!!!!!!!!  Ack!

I agree. I have Dawn, but have never used her. Just don't find her very attractive. Perhaps when the morphs arrive we'll see some more attractive faces and figures. In the meantime, I'm accumulating Dawn freebies, but not spending any money on her. Maybe I'll try her out as a background figure just to get a feel for her.

BTW: all morphed with Zbrush-and using much the same D maps. I realize the lighting is blown out on the left-but my RAM was maxed out. And I'm afraid any more manipulation will cause a freeze or crash. I had several more creatures to load-but my poor 7 Gig of RAM was was already crawling. I am considering one of the new Mac Pro's to replace my 6 year old MacPro (first Intel model).

Quote - The only downside of extreme displacement mapping is pokethrough. You won't get that with HD morphs. The clothing will follow. Also controlling a morph is simpler than controlling a Displacement map over multiple areas. One slider controls all details, instead of having to adjust the displacement in each group if it spans across multiple body parts.

Quote - * I like Dawn-and for some reason-find her easier to morph. Here is a quick Dawn Creature I made. The HD morphs can easily be done with Displacement Mapping- as you can see here with my Poser render. I used Zbrush by the way.*

To date I've only made morphs for V4, M4 and Dawn with Zbrush.

Nice subtly morphs. :tongue2:

Quote - Well I just looked at a new item at the MPO and thought "too bad it isn't for Dawn" - and held up buying it. So Dawn HAS an impact. Whether it's large as a tsunami or just a ripple in the pond.. only time will tell. 

I'vew bought more for Dawn since she came out than I'd bought for v4 in the past years. But I have no idea whether I'm the oddball r the Trendsetter here :)

I do like Dawn and one of the things I like qabout her is that she's and attempt to bridge the gap between Poser and DS. That, on its own, ought to be applauded!

You are not alone. Now everytime I look at a product, I do look to see if it has support for Dawn. It is sometimes a nice bonus if it also supports another character like v4. I have seen several vendors that are offering thier products for both and I think that is a smart move for now as they also need to make money and a new character has to get off the ground. I am trying to support  her myself as I love her quite a bit. I do think we need that morph pack to make her more widely accepted and to encourage more character creation.

I think the problem with trying to mend a gap between users is that the content creators sort of split one way or the other back when Genesis first came out. I think that is making it difficult for vendors to support both DS and Poser for her, so they choose to support one or the other. I am guilty of this because with both a full time job and full time school, it has taken me years to get to the point that I have enough proficency in Poser to develop products for it. I am trying with DS but it is very diffcult for me to learn an entire program in my limited hours of free time, so in that way I think that there is still a kind of split between the content creation for Dawn, but I have noticed that despite this, there seems to be less animosity in the forums between the users of either program since Dawn came out, and that is a nice trend. 

Quote - Much harder now to find content for my favorite Figures since Dawn is out. All vendors seem to focus on Dawn. Good for her fans , very bad for me. I had several attemps to become "friends" with Dawn, but no way. She looks way to much old DAZ-2001 to me. Her Head, hips and Leg shapes could be something like a Victoria 2.5 .  I like the torso grouping, but cutting her Head in two is a  no go sacrileg.

Quote - I think I see a more vendors slowly trying out Genesis than Dawn. Not a flood of desertions, just a kind of a gradual drift. Daz is giving the software and basic figures away, and people are trying it out.

Unfortunately, it's because now that Dawn is out, the main marketplaces are shoving her down our throats even though only 2% of people use her.  If your item isn't for Dawn as well as the other more popular figures, you can't even get accepted unless you're a top vendor.  It's a great way to alienate not only your current & future vendors, but your clients as well.  It hurts your sales & reputation in the end.  It makes me not want to even shop at these places so I just stop giving them my money unless it's for a figure I DO use, which isn't Dawn.  Personally, I think Dawn is fugly.

At this point, it makes me want to go back to modeling props instead of what I like modeling, dynamic clothes & accessories.  I feel my creativity is stifled by the multiple marketplaces' desire to force people over to a new figure by forcing out potential vendors who don't like Dawn & will probably never 'want' to use her.  If I ran my Real business this way, I'd be out of business pretty quick.  You have to have variety because not everyone is going to like or want a new shiny figure. 

Did they specifically say the product was not accepted because of no Dawn support? Unless that was specifically the reason, I don't believe rendo will enforce such a rule. Could be the product was not accepted for other reasons. I would like more clarity on this. Because if they are not accepting based on no Dawn support, well then that is an issue. To be honest I don't think they will ever place that requirement on PA's simply because some do not even own the latest versions of Poser which she can only be used in.

Quote - Did they specifically say the product was not accepted because of no Dawn support? Unless that was specifically the reason, I don't believe rendo will enforce such a rule. Could be the product was not accepted for other reasons. I would like more clarity on this. Because if they are not accepting based on no Dawn support, well then that is an issue. To be honest I don't think they will ever place that requirement on PA's simply because some do not even own the latest versions of Poser which she can only be used in.

I never said "Rendo".  Again, let me reiterate, I'm not naming any MPs in particular.  I'd love clarity on it too, but I'm a nobody.  At least that's how I feel. 

Funny though how I can get something in one mp, but not in one that asked for "extra" add on packs & then rejects both based on a dynamic outfit being too "thin" & gold jewelry being too "stiff".  Seriously?   I've seen stuff that passed into the MP, but shouldn't have been. I'm not a "pet" vendor & I never will be one.  In business, you just can't play favorites, but I see it all the time.  Sad.

I see it like this. In business there are always favourites. EG if vendor A brings in high revenue on a consistant basis compared to vendor B who brings in very litte, it's a given the site will invest more in vendor A and give them extra perks etc. It's up to you to get yourself into that position by proving yourself. Sites invest in Vendors in order to keep them happy and to keep them selling there. They are the ones who attract customers. Why should a "newbie" vendor be given the same treatment as a vendor who has proven themselves over and over for being a good investment? It's like you just starting at a new job and want the same treatment as some of the senior members. Ain't gonna happen. You have to work yourself up the food chain in the business world, and that same principle applies to vending. And I don't look these guys as "pet" vendors. They are the ones who bring in high revenue to the site. It's only natural the site looks after them by catering to their needs or giving them extra freedom. Welcome to life:) Vending is no different than any other job practice out there. You will always get some fish who are bigger than others.

Quote - Why should a "newbie" vendor be given the same treatment as a vendor who has proven themselves over and over for being a good investment?

Because you won't know if a newbie vendor has potential if you don't give them a chance. 

As far as Dawn is concerned, she's been out for how long now?  No major morph packs are out.  Mini Morphs, meh.  Not to mention Dawn looks more like a Don than a Dawn.

Quote - > Quote - Why should a "newbie" vendor be given the same treatment as a vendor who has proven themselves over and over for being a good investment?

Because you won't know if a newbie vendor has potential if you don't give them a chance. 

As far as Dawn is concerned, she's been out for how long now?  No major morph packs are out.  Mini Morphs, meh.  Not to mention Dawn looks more like a Don than a Dawn.

In terms of vending, everybody gets a chance. Everybody starts off in the exact same position. The only chance you need is to have your product released. From there the market will decide your fate. Are you one to look out for?, or are you just another vendor? Your products are a showcase of what you are about. Give them a reason to look twice at your stuff. It's like entering Idols. The judges can see if you have what it takes to go all the way, or if you will only get so far. Just prove yourself as best as you can.

Back on topic, the official morphs for Dawn will be available next month from what I have heard, but I feel it is a little too late. The excitement has already tapered off. To re-ignite that is no easy task, specially for a 3rd party figure. And yes, to me Dawn looks vey manish with that chin and huge shoulders. Let's see if these official morph packs change that in anyway.

I think Dawn's full potential and impact is still yet to come.  Once the morph packs are finally released (and I do agree they should have had these done soon after her release to keep the momentum rolling), she'll be able to fully come into her own.

As I'm not at all technical enough to see if she does have issues in how she's built, all I can say is that as an end user I like Dawn.  I think she has a lot of potential.  I've put a lot of money into Dawn so far, supporting the vendors who support her.  And I absolutely love seeing products come out that have both V4 and Dawn support.  For me, it's the best of both worlds.

I'm still using V4, and I'll definitely use Dawn more once she's got all of her bells and whistles (and I figure out the fitting room better).  I like having choices in what I can use for figures.  She's another useful tool in my Poser toolbox.

Another thing I've noticed since her release is that it seems to have broken the V4 ice in the marketplace here.  I'm seeing far more Genesis items released now than I've ever seen come out, along with V4 and Dawn items.  I can't help but think that's a good thing.

PS.  Dawn needs some Vascularity love, too. ;)

If her shoulders could be fixed in Poser, I think it would go a long way towards improving her useability and thus likeability. Her face can be morphed to be more feminine and less angular.

Its my understanding that the shoulder issue is due to the rigging trying to be cross-platform.

Can animated joint centers be injected? This would fix the shoulders. 

Joe had a great looking girl made for Dawn that took away that linebacker build, but did it ever get approved for distribution?

~Shane

I saw Joe's re-build of Dawn and it is more what she should have been. Lol and yes, he resolved that "line-backer" look. I have no Idea what the status on that is or if anybody else is going to pick it up for distribution.

Quote - I saw Joe's re-build of Dawn and it is more what she should have been. Lol and yes, he resolved that "line-backer" look. I have no Idea what the status on that is or if anybody else is going to pick it up for distribution.

Hivewire said that it had to be distributed as an injection, not as a cr2.  JP was looking for someone to create an injection from his rerig, but I don't know if he was sucessful...

Ah, thanks for the update.

Quote - If her shoulders could be fixed in Poser, I think it would go a long way towards improving her useability and thus likeability.

Most definitely.  The Poser rig isn't very good from what I've seen & heard.  If she worked nicely the first time I tried her, I might have been happy. I think that's what hurt her the most, with  me anyway.    However, the bad taste in my mouth has made a big difference.  If you don't do it right the first time, it's not good especially when you've designed figures before & "know" what you're doing.

I'd like to see an enhanced version of her.  Getting rid of the 'line backer' look would make her look more Dawn & less Don.  As long as they correct it, I might give her a chance.  They should just do an update to the entire figure though instead of an injection.  Just more to annoy the end user, imho.

Here's the thing for me... if Dawn is having less of an impact than most would like it has to be because the fact is there are SO many more figures out there and people have a wider choice of figures to choose from. More choices than they ever had with V4. V4 didn't become queen overnight. First she had to overthrow her older sister V3. It didn't hurt any that base figure was given away free, and I agree that there should have been a morphs ++ package for dawn from the launch. But that's not a lesson Hivewire HAD to learn when they were with DAZ because they were the one's controlling the figures. This time they don't have that luxury the only player on the field.

All that said, and given that my personal figure focus at the moment is directed at native Poser figures, I think Dawn will prove herself in the long run. Let's face it... V4's had a long run, but she's about as good as she's going to get without much official support from DAZ. Dawn, on the other hand has much room for improvement over time.

Quote -
Most definitely.  The Poser rig isn't very good from what I've seen & heard.  If she worked nicely the first time I tried her, I might have been happy. I think that's what hurt her the most, with  me anyway.    However, the bad taste in my mouth has made a big difference.  If you don't do it right the first time, it's not good especially when you've designed figures before & "know" what you're doing.

That was basically my argument with Dawn from the beginning. She's not a professionally crafted figure. She's a 1st or 2nd draft at best. It's not about her out-of-the-box attractiveness or lack thereof, as attractiveness is entirely subjective. Technical aspects however are not subjective. It either works to it's fullest potential or it doesn't. Dawn, in her current form, doesn't. At least not in Poser. It appears to me she was rushed to completion while important issues were either overlooked or just ignored. 

Quote - I'd like to see an enhanced version of her.  Getting rid of the 'line backer' look would make her look more Dawn & less Don.  As long as they correct it, I might give her a chance.  They should just do an update to the entire figure though instead of an injection.  Just more to annoy the end user, imho.

I just dug up the Dawn to Danielle thread and re-read it. Basically it seems that in order to actually fix her shoulders and other rigging issues in Poser, it will "break" the pseudo-compatibility between the two platforms, which never actually existed to begin with. 

The shoulder issues (and other rigging issues) with DS-based figures is apparent in Genesis as well, not just Dawn, when loaded into Poser. That doesn't mean that one platform is better or worse than the other, it just means that they are two very different platforms and therefore the end results will not be the same when trying to crowbar the tech together as has been being done with DSON and now Dawn.

I wish people would just stop trying to force the two programs to have compatible content. There's no reason for it. Build for whichever one you want to build for. If that means both then great, but accept the fact that when you try to support both equally it means double the work and beginning from the ground up in both platforms. There are no shortcuts that can be taken without sacrificing the quality of the product in the end, on one platform or the other, if not both. 

~Shane

"The shoulder issues (and other rigging issues) with DS-based figures was apparent in Genesis as well, but has been fixed in the meantime by an improved DSON-importer."

Fixed that for you.

;-)

Quote - I wish people would just stop trying to force the two programs to have compatible content. There's no reason for it. Build for whichever one you want to build for. If that means both then great, but accept the fact that when you try to support both equally it means double the work and beginning from the ground up in both platforms. There are no shortcuts that can be taken without sacrificing the quality of the product in the end, on one platform or the other, if not both.

I pretty much wholly agree with this.  Choose to make whatever you want in whatever program you want to.  As long as it is clearly stated on your product or freebie, it is your time spent.  We are artists and allowed be fickle or driven by what we enjoy.  Otherwise, what is the point of it at all?  It shouldn't be about driving square pegs through round holes or getting frustrated.  It's supposed to be fun.  If DS or Poser irritates you or you don't get along with it, leave it alone.  That's about all there is to it.

"Well, there's an expectation of X, Y or Z".  Sorry, still a choice and you should not let anyone berate you for what you decide to do.

Far from it.

But it's (now) the first figure "good enough" for me to enjoy the occasional render straight "out of the box" without the immediate urge to rework the rigging.

:-)

"I wish people would just stop trying to force the two programs to have compatible content. There's no reason for it. Build for whichever one you want to build for. If that means both then great, but accept the fact that when you try to support both equally it means double the work and beginning from the ground up in both platforms. There are no shortcuts that can be taken without sacrificing the quality of the product in the end, on one platform or the other, if not both.
"

The thing is that clothing merchants want to go back to the pre-Genesis days, where they could simply rig once and then sell to both markets.

Dawn allows them to do that, as they can just rig in Studio and then simply export for Poser as a cr2.

But for me the cost (i.e. the reduction in rigging quality) is too high.

As far as Danielle goes, noone stepped forward to convert her into a set of legally distributeable injection poses and scripts.

As I wrote, I don't mind sharing her, but I have much better things to do with my time than jumping through hoops to fix someone else's work.

Learning how to do and making all the necessary injection files and scripts and testing might easily take me a week given my health issues, while making a rte-file plus read me is just an hour or less.

So, sorry for those having looked forward to play with her, but I did the best I could manage.

Quote - Dawn allows them to do that, as they can just rig in Studio and then simply export for Poser as a cr2.

Sorry, Joe, that's just not true.  It's never been true, and I don't believe I've ever seen anyone claim it is.

Even the folks from Hivewire never said any such thing.

Quote - > Quote - I wish people would just stop trying to force the two programs to have compatible content. There's no reason for it. Build for whichever one you want to build for. If that means both then great, but accept the fact that when you try to support both equally it means double the work and beginning from the ground up in both platforms. There are no shortcuts that can be taken without sacrificing the quality of the product in the end, on one platform or the other, if not both.

I pretty much wholly agree with this.  Choose to make whatever you want in whatever program you want to.  As long as it is clearly stated on your product or freebie, it is your time spent.  We are artists and allowed be fickle or driven by what we enjoy.  Otherwise, what is the point of it at all?  It shouldn't be about driving square pegs through round holes or getting frustrated.  It's supposed to be fun.  If DS or Poser irritates you or you don't get along with it, leave it alone.  That's about all there is to it.

"Well, there's an expectation of X, Y or Z".  Sorry, still a choice and you should not let anyone berate you for what you decide to do.

Amen, x 1000.

Quote - > Quote - Dawn allows them to do that, as they can just rig in Studio and then simply export for Poser as a cr2.

Sorry, Joe, that's just not true.  It's never been true, and I don't believe I've ever seen anyone claim it is.

Even the folks from Hivewire never said any such thing.

 

Yeah, Hivewire never said it. They created a video on youtube. Do a search for "Converting Dawn Clothing from DAZ Studio to Poser". You'll find Hivewire made the video if you look at the author.

Of course you have to do some rigging adjustments once you get it into poser to finish it up, but you don't have to start from scratch.

"Sorry, Joe, that's just not true.  It's never been true, and I don't believe I've ever seen anyone claim it is."

Dawn was rigged in Studio.

Then the rig was exported to Poser via Studio's built in "cr2-exporter". (Which can only export a pretty basic rig last time I checked)

That's why the rig has to be so simplified and that's why she needs all those extra body-groups to somewhat compensate. (Two necks like Vicky-2 and multiple abdomen like Apollo)

That's the whole "secret" of Dawn's "Bridging the Poser/Studio rift".

Not some clever "advanced" rigging, but quite the contrary.

That's at least what I read over at the Hivewire forums following merchants' conversations and reading the Hivewire development thread here. And it matches with the type of rigging I encountered when trying to improve her for Poser.

Sorry, I won't hunt for the exact locations to "proof" my statement. It's not that important to me.

But if you can give me technical details that refute my statement, I'm all ears.

I don't think anyone is berating anybody for liking Dawn or wanting to support her.

If you like her and she suits your needs, that's great. She at least adds more variety to what is already available.

Joe, I would offer to help make Danielle distributable, but it would be a while as I have several other projects I have to get done first. I'm a bit surprised that no one else has offered. I'm not sure how much confusion Danielle would add to the Dawn pot though, since most of the content available would likely not work without also being modified. Maybe that's why the offer plate has gone empty, since the majority of custom figures based on mainstreamers (even the best of them) get very little to no vendor support as it is. 

~Shane

Attached Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcLn3jdVsbY

and as I said: A simple cr2 export is all what's happening. No adjustments whatsoever in Poser, at least not for the demo -bikini.

I'm not a professional Studio user, but I bought the Studio rigging tools back when they cost really $$$, and I think I can say I know a thing or two about Poser rigging.

So when I say things about a figure's rigging, I usually say them for simply because I want them to be improved, and not to be nasty or to score a point or whatever.

I really wanted Dawn to be the best possible Poser figure, but now she's just the easiest to make clothing for.

But enough of that.

Please enjoy whatever figure you prefer.

But I'll reserve the right to point out problems wherever I see them, because that's the only way we can develop further and because I truly believe better figures will allow everyone to make better art.

If everybody was content with what we have, we'd still play with Dork and Posette and wait hours for a simple render to finish on our 312mb RAM machines.

;-)

Thanks, AmbientShade.

I'll send you a PM once I re-upped the Danielle file.

No time constraints whatsoever.

And as with all my stuff, if you find things to improve or add, feel free to do it.

Quote - "Sorry, Joe, that's just not true.  It's never been true, and I don't believe I've ever seen anyone claim it is."

 

Dawn was rigged in Studio.

Then the rig was exported to Poser via Studio's built in "cr2-exporter". (Which can only export a pretty basic rig last time I checked)

That's why the rig has to be so simplified and that's why she needs all those extra body-groups to somewhat compensate. (Two necks like Vicky-2 and multiple abdomen like Apollo)

That's the whole "secret" of Dawn's "Bridging the Poser/Studio rift".

Not some clever "advanced" rigging, but quite the contrary.

 

That's at least what I read over at the Hivewire forums following merchants' conversations and reading the Hivewire development thread here. And it matches with the type of rigging I encountered when trying to improve her for Poser.

Sorry, I won't hunt for the exact locations to "proof" my statement. It's not that important to me.

But if you can give me technical details that refute my statement, I'm all ears.

I never said any of that wasn't true.  Just that you can just save as a CR2 from DS and it's done.

That's simply NOT true, and no one has intimated it is.

That's exactly the biggest issues with Dawn for Poser - they used that crappy software to rig her and borked the Poser version.  Which only serves to make the point - you can't JUST save a CR2 in DS and it works magically in Poser.

Not.  true.

Oh, and I can't read anything Malewhatshisname posts - I use the Ignore button liberally.

The video is a good start but honestly a bikini is about as easy as it gets.  there is one body part for each piece.  You can also go the other way and do the rig-transfer (or whatnot) in DS from the original obj.

Once you get past skin-tight body original body parts is where its going to be tricky.

I'm not planning on double-rigging.  I'm comfortable being specialized in Poser.  That's where my heart lies and again if others choose the other or both, good on them!  There's no reason, to me, that each program can't have its own things.  I take no offense if there are DS-only Dawn products.  Big deal.  Hivewire is still reaching their core goal in regard to the figure reaching two different platforms.

Quote - > Quote - Oh, and I can't read anything Malewhatshisname posts - I use the Ignore button liberally.

Bwah hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Oh my god, I cracked up on that one!

No fighting now you two! Let's keep the conversation clean!

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Oh, and I can't read anything Malewhatshisname posts - I use the Ignore button liberally.

Bwah hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Oh my god, I cracked up on that one!

No fighting now you two! Let's keep the conversation clean!

 

Well, I don't feel that throwing potshots unnecessarily does much for credibility when someone posts, but I see the ignore button does help to significantly keep the conversation on track. Thanks for the feature, Rendo.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Oh, and I can't read anything Malewhatshisname posts - I use the Ignore button liberally.

Bwah hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Oh my god, I cracked up on that one!

No fighting now you two! Let's keep the conversation clean!

 

Well, I don't feel that throwing potshots unnecessarily does much for credibility when someone posts, but I see the ignore button does help to significantly keep the conversation on track. Thanks for the feature, Rendo.

That is an overdue addition.  Though, if you ignore every troll on the rendo forums it's going to get awefully quiet around here awefully quick.

Quote - "Sorry, Joe, that's just not true.  It's never been true, and I don't believe I've ever seen anyone claim it is."

 

Dawn was rigged in Studio.

Then the rig was exported to Poser via Studio's built in "cr2-exporter". (Which can only export a pretty basic rig last time I checked)

That's why the rig has to be so simplified and that's why she needs all those extra body-groups to somewhat compensate. (Two necks like Vicky-2 and multiple abdomen like Apollo)

That's the whole "secret" of Dawn's "Bridging the Poser/Studio rift".

Not some clever "advanced" rigging, but quite the contrary.

 

That's at least what I read over at the Hivewire forums following merchants' conversations and reading the Hivewire development thread here. And it matches with the type of rigging I encountered when trying to improve her for Poser.

Sorry, I won't hunt for the exact locations to "proof" my statement. It's not that important to me.

But if you can give me technical details that refute my statement, I'm all ears.

I cant speak to what was done past the export, but what you say is pretty much in line with what hivewire has stated their process was.  I'm fairly certain they have stated that they worked on the rig past the starting point that the cr2 export yields, just as they have suggested that clothing creators using a DS ===> cr2 export ===> poser workflow do the same.  I dont think that anyone is or should be suggesting that the cr2 export from DS provides a 'good enough' rig any more than poser's auto-rig gives a 'good enough' result.