Quote - AND that is where the premade models come in.

TIME constraints.

Also I find it abit ironic, in this thread the snitch about "modeling" to "sculpting"....I do not do animations.  My work is purely for stills.

That being said, zbrush/(smaller brother) sculptris is modeling.  But even in that aspect the snobbering shows up.

And it is snobbery. When one side is looking down on the other for which ever reason(be it a pedantic need to point out edges etc) or whether someone has "made an image from the ground up"..its snobbery.

It also works against the community as it (tries) to make others feel bad about what they do. It attempts to make people go "well what is the use"...it works to some extent. Which is sad.

Ill put out there again...

"I hate the terms low end and high end, they're all just tools, some are better at certain tasks than others. I see all of us artists as one big community, regardless of what software we choose to use or what sort of job we have." Pixars-Neil Blevins: April, 2013

If a PROFESSIONAL like Neil Blevins can see it...why cant all those other people looking down their nose cant?******

---

I wouldn't consider it snobbery to be specific in terminology.  If it's being pointed out just for the sake of argument, then yes, it's idiotic snobbery.  In general terms, sculpting and modelling can be interchangeable terms, but technically speaking, they are distinct talents, and different techniques.  Sculptris topology is delaunay triangulation, and can't be subdivided well with industry standard Catmull-Clark subD algorythms, and would need to be retopologized using traditional polygon topology tools.  This is particularly important if the model has a future in animation, but can be equally important in stills, depending on the scene.  It's sometimes important, if you're rendering a large scene with lots of high poly objects, to be as efficient as possible with your topology.  Subdividing the geometry, only when rendering, is a common technique to conserving viewport resources, etc.

You can call sculpting whatever you wish, but if you were working in collaboration, or creating models for distribution, the distinction would make sense, and shouldn't be considered snobbery.  Even many software packages make the distinction, by having "sculpting" tools, which are not the same as "modelling" tools.

BTW, Neil Blevins is a hero of mine, all the way back to his Blur Studio days.  I have all his plugin scripts for 3dsmax, and think his philosophy toward modelling and workflow are spot on.

That quoted statement was in response to someone asking questions about modelling and ptex.  I've seen it posted in the Daz forums.  Was that you he was talking to?  Here's a larger snippet of that quote:

Neil:

I still do a lot of my modeling in 3dsmax, as I find its modeling tools to be more plentiful than maya. Modo is cool too, but it doesn’t have any sort of construction history, so I tend to stick with max for initial modeling, and then finish up adding creases and what not inside of maya. Another reason I want all modelers to have opensubd support. Then people can move stuff from anywhere to anywhere. Makes a level playing field in terms of data, so people can use their fav app and it can all end up in the same pipeline in the end.

wancow (daz forums name):

In any event, thank you again for everything you’ve written and the attention you’ve given all of us! Those of us who live on the low end don’t get much respect from high end artists, and when we do, it’s very much appreciated!

Neil:

Haha. I hate the terms low end and high end, they’re all just tools, some are better at certain tasks than others. I see all of us artists as one big community, regardless of what software we choose to use or what sort of job we have. So it’s no problem, glad to help out everybody.

Anyone who is into modelling, and thinks sculpting is not a valid or important form of the modelling process is in for a rude awakening.  Even if your specialty is hard-surface modelling, sculpting is a great way to rough out your shapes for retopo. Or the other way around... block out in low poly, and add details in sculpting app (usually the workflow for organic modelling).  They work together as one workflow these days, and all serious modellers should know at least a little sculpting.*

Quote - /moderation off

Can we PLEASE put down the whips and let this poor pony pass? This issue REALLY HAS been beaten to death over and over and over and over...

/moderation on

Wiz, why is that a problem? I know that as a moderator you are in the unfortunate position of having to read every post of every thread, but everyone else here can skip this thread if they don't like dead horses, it's clearly marked as such.

Forums are cyclic, some topics will come up repeatedly, so what? It's boring if you remember the past discussions, but what harm does it do? Fifty-odd posts in this thread suggest that some people want to discuss this one again, is that such a problem? 

DarkElegance : I like beast

http://digitalartofdarkelegance.daportfolio.com/gallery/851317#2

And anything you want to do ,you can with CGI in certain ways

I've always declinded any teaching offer ,cause I sux at teaching so bear with me.

A Blender forum would be way more helpful then me.

& I'm not trying to be snoby or anything .
scultpris is more of a door way to zBrush.
zBrush is not a all pourpose app ,it's a plug for them.
most the time to make vector map ,displacment map,normal map.

all purpose apps Max,Maya,C4D,LW,Blender.

Here is how most would make beast with the main all pourpose apps along with Blender.

Step 1 Sculpt beast with millions of polygones for a lot of detail.

Step 2 retopologize beast with a polycount of 20.000 to 30.000 for rigs.

Step 3 burn the sculpt on to the beast as a ,vector map ,displacment map,normal map.
vector map are the newer versions os displacment maps.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kb3uC1nY7Q* *
Normal maps keep polycount low,used in games.

Step 4 painting ,ah ,I don't know about painting in Blender.
*in zBrush or any app ya would temporary subD the retopologize beast to a real high polycount ,polypaint ,burn texture to uv map.or just paint the flat uvmap in something like gimp.*or http://quixel.se/ddo/

Step 5 rigs.I would only rig meshes with a polycount of 30.000 or lower.

This is not the only way but it's how a lot do.

Quote - What if Toy Story was put out with bad poser 3 lighting

slightly OT ,but wasn't Toy Story lit with shadow mapping..so it kinda was put out with P3 lighting :)

agree with the sentiment though,no one cares that Poser or pre made content was used,they care that the imagery is made to a high standard.

DarkElegance :

good lesson with texturing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W07H7xeUnGE

and forgot to say when modeling or retopology .the rule is to model 100% quads.
Most insain rule ever but that's the rule.
even thou catmull clark can SubD Tri's most app's leave's that part out.

so ya model or retopology beast with a 5000 polycount with mostly quads and a few tri's ,SubD once.makes the polycount 20.000 & 100% quads ,magic.
it's how Vicky 4,5,6 is modeled more or less.think there might be some mudbox in 5,6.

stonemason :
lets sincerely hope all of the real out dated 1995 CGI Tech has been upgraded buy now :unsure:

Quote - DarkElegance :

good lesson with texturing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W07H7xeUnGE

and forgot to say when modeling or retopology .the rule is to model 100% quads.
Most insain rule ever but that's the rule.
even thou catmull clark can SubD Tri's most app's leave's that part out.

so ya model or retopology beast with a 5000 polycount with mostly quads and a few tri's ,SubD once.makes the polycount 20.000 & 100% quads ,magic.
it's how Vicky 4,5,6 is modeled more or less.think there might be some mudbox in 5,6.

---

 

stonemason :
lets sincerely hope all of the real out dated 1995 CGI Tech has been upgraded buy now :unsure:

OH thank you for the links!

I like how easy it is in sculptris to get a creature out of it. Its just the extra stuff that is bogging me down. But I do want to learn to get it rigged etc. I will go through those links and try to move forward with the models.

facepalm

not this...again.

Quote - facepalm

not this...again.

Yep. 

I tried to cut it off, but no one got the hint.

As long as everyone behaves, I can ignore it.

Quote -
OH thank you for the links! I like how easy it is in sculptris to get a creature out of it. Its just the extra stuff that is bogging me down. But I do want to learn to get it rigged etc. I will go through those links and try to move forward with the models.

Reading manuels puts me to sleep. So I'm a fan of youtube or anyones video's :) There's a lot of Youtube Video's . If there on a diffrent version might not be 100% how it works on this version.. http://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewPPrice/videos & http://cgcookie.com/blender/ 
seem to know there way around Blender.

We all got blogged down,over overwhelmed and just drove insain.When we started.
Paying dews sux but we all half to appease the CGI Gods.

Just have fun and I swear it seems I'll learn 10 new things while I'm trying to get one other thing.If ya stick with it . With in a few months from now ya be able to have Beast from cube to total completion sculpted,retopologized,maped,textured,rigged etc etc with in hours.

Quote - > Quote -

OH thank you for the links! I like how easy it is in sculptris to get a creature out of it. Its just the extra stuff that is bogging me down. But I do want to learn to get it rigged etc. I will go through those links and try to move forward with the models.

Reading manuels puts me to sleep. So I'm a fan of youtube or anyones video's :) There's a lot of Youtube Video's . If there on a diffrent version might not be 100% how it works on this version.. http://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewPPrice/videos & http://cgcookie.com/blender/ 
seem to know there way around Blender.

We all got blogged down,over overwhelmed and just drove insain.When we started.
Paying dews sux but we all half to appease the CGI Gods.

Just have fun and I swear it seems I'll learn 10 new things while I'm trying to get one other thing.If ya stick with it . With in a few months from now ya be able to have Beast from cube to total completion sculpted,retopologized,maped,textured,rigged etc etc with in hours.

manuals always get my head in a twist. But SEEING something being done, I pick up allot faster. Thank you for the link and the support. It means so much.

Quote - manuals always get my head in a twist. But SEEING something being done, I pick up allot faster. Thank you for the link and the support. It means so much.

Anytime ,I'm always around.
CGI has given me so much ,the least I could do is give something back.

I shall now make ground horse meat. The holy bastion of so-called snobbery (CGSociety) has not one, not two, or even three, but FOUR (there may be more, but I only scrolled down to the fourth set of images) Poser renders in their Editor's Choice gallery. Dead horse, begone. Just in case someone reads this post much later, I'll link them here, also, in order of obvious Poser-ness (most obvious to least obvious):

Steampunk Pin-up by Sandra Bauser

Liquid Fantasy by Sandra Bauser

Alena by Walter Petretto

Diva 2... Aicka by David Alejandro Mejía

http://kromekat.cgsociety.org/portfolio/project-detail/Drop-Red-Gorgeous-268065
We all know Adam Benton Avatar

right of the .jpgs there's tags

http://galleries.portfolio.cgsociety.org/gallery/software/Poser

http://galleries.portfolio.cgsociety.org/gallery/software/Daz+Studio

This particular horse has been reduced to a paste. Please stop splashing it around. We need a new dead horse before flogging recommences. ;-)

Quote - This particular horse has been reduced to a paste. Please stop splashing it around. We need a new dead horse before flogging recommences. ;-)

Dear Lord! Please! Another horse! My kingdom for another horse... as long as it is not:

Genesis

Dazstudio

What is wrong with the business practices of

External Rendering Engines

What constitutes art

Low Poly vs High Poly models

Arcane processes that 3 people here actually understand, but which 174 others want everyone to THINK they understand. (The 3 are actually welcome to participate in such threads!)

What is wrong with every figure out there

All of these horses have already departed for the glue factory. Pretty much everything else, I'd enjoy a conversation about!

Quote - > Quote - This particular horse has been reduced to a paste. Please stop splashing it around. We need a new dead horse before flogging recommences. ;-)

Dear Lord! Please! Another horse! My kingdom for another horse... as long as it is not:

Genesis

Dazstudio

What is wrong with the business practices of

External Rendering Engines

What constitutes art

Low Poly vs High Poly models

Arcane processes that 3 people here actually understand, but which 174 others want everyone to THINK they understand. (The 3 are actually welcome to participate in such threads!)

What is wrong with every figure out there

All of these horses have already departed for the glue factory. Pretty much everything else, I'd enjoy a conversation about!

what about a topic about...

Naked vicki in a temple not being taken seriously as Art by High-end 3d modeling programs that arent compatable with DAZ studio and uses a third party render engine, that causes issues when imported to Poser?

is that horse dead? Or cant I make a topic about it :P

DarkElegance : Now might be a good time to move to Mars or maybe Pluto. :unsure:

Quote - This particular horse has been reduced to a paste. Please stop splashing it around. We need a new dead horse before flogging recommences. ;-)

So you click on a topic you don't wish to discuss, and you tell the participants in that thread to stop discussing it.  Tell me, do you also walk into sports bars and tell everyone to stop discussing saturday's match? After all it has already been discussed elsewhere, by others, so the subject is closed, right?

Not everyone here reads every post every day. Not everyone participates in every discussion. If you are one of those that do, and you're bored by what you read, maybe you should start interesting threads rather than trying to shut down threads you find boring.

Quote - Dear Lord! Please! Another horse! My kingdom for another horse... as long as it is not:

Genesis

Dazstudio

What is wrong with the business practices of

External Rendering Engines

What constitutes art

Low Poly vs High Poly models

Arcane processes that 3 people here actually understand, but which 174 others want everyone to THINK they understand. (The 3 are actually welcome to participate in such threads!)

What is wrong with every figure out there

All of these horses have already departed for the glue factory. Pretty much everything else, I'd enjoy a conversation about!

I thought it would be facetious to ask if there was a list of 'banned' topics, but it seems there is one after all.  If all those topics are destined to be derailed by a few posters who don't want them discussed anymore, I guess this forum will be limited to "which hair is this" posts and poser bug reports. Good luck with that.

Maybe it's time for a sticky saying "All new topics have to be approved by a moderator"?

Quote - DarkElegance : Now might be a good time to move to Mars or maybe Pluto. :unsure:

I couldnt resist >.<

basicwiz : I think DAZ read ya list and is sending Stephanie 6 to get ya.
Run basicwiz RUN !!!

For those that might not get my joke
basicwiz Posted the hate list at Feb 17, 2014 2:04 pm with Genesis on it.
DAZ Released Stephanie 6 at Feb 18, 2014 3:19 am

Quote -
I thought it would be facetious to ask if there was a list of 'banned' topics, but it seems there is one after all.  If all those topics are destined to be derailed by a few posters who don't want them discussed anymore, I guess this forum will be limited to "which hair is this" posts and poser bug reports. Good luck with that.

Maybe it's time for a sticky saying "All new topics have to be approved by a moderator"?

I thought all forum members would realize that my post was in humor, but I guess not.

For the record, it was me trying to be funny (hence all the smilies).

Yes, I'm sick to death of all those topics, but they are not banned.

Quote - I thought all forum members would realize that my post was in humor, but I guess not.

The smilies were duly noted Wiz, but so was the fact that it was your third post calling for an end to the discussion because you are bored with it. I don't have a dog in this fight, I simply question whether such posts are constructive, your status as a moderator aside.

When 3 threads about a new figure spring up simultaneaously, as often happens, I agree with shutting all but one down so that discussion can be focussed, but this is suppressing discussion on an otherwise quiet board because similar threads have existed in the past. Everything got discussed in the past, that's not important, it's what is currently being discussed that makes a forum alive. Otherwise you're left with a few old stickies gathering dust, and no-one starts any new threads because everything has been covered before.

Anyway the discussion is effectively derailed now, so all the people who didn't want to take part in it should be happy.

If anyone really wants to understand this subject better try going to cgsociety and search . There were some very good comments about the skills needed to do cg on a commercial basis for advertising or feature films.

Sorry for my lack of patience. I'll make no further comments in this thread. Just watch until it turns nasty, and then lock it.

just lock it anyway. they can just use the Search and find one of the other 50 or so versions of this dead horse.

markschum Quote

Quote -If anyone really wants to understand this subject better try going to cgsociety and search . There were some very good comments about the skills needed to do cg on a commercial basis for advertising or feature films.

cgsociety has 500,000 + members.
People are restricted to what they can and CANNOT say at cgsociety.
There is useful info on forms but a lot of it is people just being parrots.
before I lissen to some one .
I look at there gallery & see what they can do.
After ya been around ya get who's who.

People will swear there app ,school is the only one.
App's have demo's .no comment about schools.