Was just wondering if there's an official content developer's manual for Poser.

I was thinking about ZBrushing some JCM's (Joint Controlled Morphs) for Roxie and realised I forgot how to do a lot of this stuff; how to export it so that it can be loaded from a file by another user and for the JCM to kick in without issue.

I realise it wouldn't take me long to look into it, and the Poser manual seems to have some development information, but I'm still curious if there's a dedicated reference manual for the figure technology like they do for Poser Python.

A lot of technology has been added to Poser since I last used to mess around with it, so there'a lot I need to catch up on.

Hah!

No such thing exists...period.  None of the books, manuals, forums, blogs, websites, stone tablets or cave paintings are in any way complete and comprehensive.  They all make huge leaps of assumed knowledge and/or leave out minor but essential points.  

All this being said, all the  necessary  information is available...somewhere.  If you put all the video tutorials together and read all the books,blogs, etc you'll eventually learn all the skills required to make stuff for Poser and Daz.  I've been on this journey for a year now and have learned a lot but it hasn't been easy.  The 'official' manual that ships with Poser glosses over much of the material leaving one scratching one's head.  I bought two actual books that filled in a few gaps but...        I've downloaded every single tutorial from YouTube and even bought a few instructional video sets.   It's hard to find a guide to the basics of Poser since they all assume you know it but....

A great place to start is here (  http://drgeep.com/ ).  The 'doc' lays the foundation with comprehensive instructions on the basics.

Feel free to PM me for more.

No there is not.

Question?

You want to make JCM's? ? For Roxie? ?

JCM's where made for conventionally riggged figures that had bend limitations due to the conventional fall-off zone rigging.

Most if not all JCM's became obsolete now that we have weightmapping.

A gentle stroke on the W-Map, or the bulge map, is usually all that is required to get the bend or twist to behave. 

Ah man, bloody typical that is, sounds like you've had a hard time of it then.

Looks like I'll have to do the same if I want to get any products out there.  I'm surprised though, because at least Smith Micro ensure there's up-to-date documentation for the program when they release it (which should be mandatory for all software developers).  So yeah, I'm surprised at that, they even went to the trouble of creating a nice manual for Poser Python so it seems odd not to have one for content, the life-blood of the program!

I do remember the name "geep", will have to check out his site and, like you said, YouTube and the forums etc.

Cheers mate, and thanks for the offer of help through PM if I need it, that's really good of you :-)

Oops,

   I forgot to add that the software you use to make your items and what kind of items you're making plays into this.  Blender is quite popular now that the Gui isn't stupid and ridiculous anymore.  The workflow from your 3D app to Poser/Daz very much depends on your app.  There is a lot more information on creating clothing since that's so popular.  Making mechanical stuff that moves and/or has moving parts is harder.

I get the feeling that content creation is very much a dark art and those who have figured it out keep their secrets mostly to themselves,  treating the journey to enlightenment as a rite of passage.  I'm assuming that once my first item goes up for sale I'll be welcomed into the 'club', shown the secret handshake, and given a key to the secret lounge.

Sorry vilters, cross posted with you :-)

What you said only goes to prove how far behind I am with the technology, what you say makes sense, I really have got a whole heap of stuff to catch up on or I'll have to forget about vending.

I might have released something using JCM and then felt like a tit if I'd used it where another technique would have worked better.

Ack!

Another crossposter!

Cheers Bob, I'm liking Blender now that I'm getting my head around it, I agree it's more usable since they updated the interface.  I wish I could change that awful font they use though, hate that font.

Heh, maybe I'll get to join you in that secret lounge some day, I hope so :-)

Do you remember how bad the Poser2 figures are rigged?

I"ll start up my other PC, and upload some pictures where I take the old and forgotten Poser2 people, and correct the most ugly bends using only W-Map painting.

St-By

Quote - Most if not all JCM's became obsolete now that we have weightmapping.

You still need JCMs, just not as many as before. 

The more accurate the mesh is built the less necessary JCMs become.

You can slave any morph to any joint right inside the Parameters pallet with Edit Dependencies. 

I was trying to do a video tutorial on this the other day but apparently CamStudio isn't reliable on my machine for videos that last more than about 5 minutes. 

There are webinars hosted by SM on Poser's youtube channel, but they are rather long (hours), and cover several topics in each session, so they don't focus very long on any one aspect but they're still helpful and get you familiar with what to do. 

You can also check out nerd3D's tutorials page:

http://nerd3d.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=1

Covers a lot of topics going back to Poser 4. He also has shorter videos on Poser's youtube channel. 

~Shane

Look here at the Poser2 female shoulder bend (right side, and the W-Map corrected one on the left.

The back is often neglected.

All this took was to convert the joint to W-Map, add the affected groups, and paint the joint.

So, with W-map painting, and morphing, (what I do in Blender these days) even these "old" and "forgotten" figures become usable again.

On one side, you have the mesh and the edgeflow of the mesh that "make" a figure, and on the other side it is the rigging.

Blender takes care of the morphing part, and W-Map painting takes care of the rigging.

Quote -
http://nerd3d.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=1

These look excellent, thanks for the link. 

I liken gathering information and tutorials to driftnet fishing.  Ie, grab EVERYTHING indiscriminately then sort it out.  I keep three directories called, 'read', 'good, and 'referance'.  I never delete a tutorial as you never know if there's some obscure piece of information contained within it.

**
@vilters**
All I remember is being limited to the use of bulges for joints and having to deal with that annoying issue when bringing an .obj into another program for editing, only to dicover it transforms into a spikey mess due to the vertex order getting screwed up.  I remember spending a small fortune on a program called "Amorphium" - anyone remember that?

Sort of like a baby ZBrush, in fact I thik I still have it somewhere :-P

@Shane
Cheers man, sounds like I'll need every resoure I can lay may hands on.  I remember nerd as well, will check it out.  If you get that video sorted feel free to post a link to that here as well so I can check it out.

I used to use a program called 'Windows Media Encoder' a few years back, it was a free download from Microsoft that could do anything from screen recording to broadcasting live feeds etc.  I was blown away by the sophistication it had, don't know if it would work on your system with you having issues with other screen capture, but definitely worth a try.

@ pumeco Ah,allow me to correct an error of yours.

"Spikes", as you call them, "wrong vertex order", have nothing to do with rigging.

They come from welded, rewelded, broken welds, changed welds, vertex added or deleted, anyway, "spikes" or "wrong vertex order" always come from the pure object file.

Not from the rigging, conventional or W-mapped, that is in the cr2.

Quote - And a view from the back.

The back is often neglected.

All this took was to convert the joint to W-Map, add the affected groups, and paint the joint.

So, with W-map painting, and morphing, (what I do in Blender these days) even these "old" and "forgotten" figures become usable again.

On one side, you have the mesh and the edgeflow of the mesh that "make" a figure, and on the other side it is the rigging.

Blender takes care of the morphing part, and W-Map painting takes care of the rigging.

But for commercial products, do you think you're going to be allowed to change a figure's weightmap?

Probably not. Would any other vendors' clothing work if you change the base figure's weightmap?

That's where the JCMs come in for a morph for a commercial product. 

**
@vilters**
Good demos, any yup, that's the sort of thing I'm wanting to fix, well, not exactly fix, just practice with really.

With all the chat about Roxie I thought I might as well practice on her.  I was wanting to put her arms above her head and to practice setting the morph to automatically correct the joint and what should happen to her breasts when her arms are lifted.

I wanted to practice a morph where lifting her arm will automatically stretch the skin between the abdomen and shoulder so that her arm-pit keeps in line and the skin flows as it should.  At the same time, her breasts would stretch upward and be sort of 'sucked-in' because the volume is suddenly getting shifted from gravity, to suspension by her arm.

That's always been a killer for me and when I see it, I cringe, looks bloody awful, even Genesis is a heap of crap (in that respect) because there's no excuse for it when such technology is available to correct it.

That's kinda why I pointed out in the other thread that people need to stop whining and learn to use the figure technology that is already in Poser.  There's no excuse for figures having any of these bending problems when you consider the technology that's available to rectify it.  And let's face it, there's not just one technology, but multiple that can even be mixed.

So that's my persoanl first goal for practice; ZBrushing such a morph and deciding on which is the best technology(s) to correct it, all through trial and error.

"Vendors", will have to use to org W-Map / Bulge map, or provide an alternative.

Agreed.

But most clothing is at least "partially" covering up the figure body, so it becomes less important.

Unless, for "revealing" clothing.  LOL.

I see a heck of a lot of terminology on those sites, some I'd never even heard of.

Just so that I can get a solid base to work from, how many figure technologies are there and what are they called?  I realise that's not really a narrow enough question but if you were to divide them up into, say:

Rigging Technology:

• Bones
• Joints
• Internal Keyframed Rigging (not sure of the proper name for that one).
• Bone Mapping
• Bulge Deformers
• Bulge Mapping
• Magnet (or maybe that would come under morphs).
• Magnet Mapping

Morph Technology:

• Object Imported
• Morph Intection
• Joint Controlled Morphs
• Morph Mapping
• Partial Morphs
• Full Body Morphs

Are there any figure-building technologies in Poser that I've missed?

Quote - But for commercial products, do you think you're going to be allowed to change a figure's weightmap?

Probably not. Would any other vendors' clothing work if you change the base figure's weightmap?

That's where the JCMs come in for a morph for a commercial product. 

Weightmaps and AJCs are injectable. 

~Shane

Quote - > Quote - But for commercial products, do you think you're going to be allowed to change a figure's weightmap?

Probably not. Would any other vendors' clothing work if you change the base figure's weightmap?

That's where the JCMs come in for a morph for a commercial product. 

Weightmaps and AJCs are injectable. 

 

~Shane

But you probably wouldn't use them if the base figure doesn't have it, unless you're making your own clothing to go with it. Not everyone has the pro version of the software, so you have to make your products assuming that. Support generally kills making products that goes beyond the base.

Quote - But for commercial products, do you think you're going to be allowed to change a figure's weightmap?

Probably not. Would any other vendors' clothing work if you change the base figure's weightmap?

That's where the JCMs come in for a morph for a commercial product. 

There are several rerigged figures, Billy-T has one here in the MP for TY2, and there are free ones for (at least) V4, M4 LOD, D3 and V3.

The weight maps can be transferred to clothing with Poser Place Outfitter, which is Open-Source under the GPL, and works with non-Pro Poser.

Quote - > Quote - But for commercial products, do you think you're going to be allowed to change a figure's weightmap?

Probably not. Would any other vendors' clothing work if you change the base figure's weightmap?

That's where the JCMs come in for a morph for a commercial product. 

There are several rerigged figures, Billy-T has one here in the MP for TY2, and there are free ones for (at least) V4, M4 LOD, D3 and V3.

The weight maps can be transferred to clothing with Poser Place Outfitter, which is Open-Source under the GPL, and works with non-Pro Poser.

Yes and they add a layer of complexity to the product that isn't officially supported. If someone doesn't frequent the forums, they may not know how get the needed tools.  And direct support is not there for those aboved named figures, so they don't have much of a reach beyond the person making the product. 

It has been a while since I looked in the book...but wouldnt "Poser-Secrets of figure creation" cover that info?

(Since you were looking for a book)

http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Figure-Creation-Poser-5-ebook/dp/B0094GAT2A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1395071656&sr=8-1&keywords=Poser-Secrets+of+figure+creation

Rawn

Was looking for anything, cheers Rawn!

Took one look at the index and bought one immediately (super cheap as well).  It's going to be a bit outdated but at least the technologies explained in it will be widely available.   Might get me started on catching-up to the other guys here, and I've got to know this stuff.  I watch the conversations and haven't a damn clue what half of the stuff is!

Funny though, I use Amazon all the time and never thought to look on there :-D

It used to be the go-to book for developers, alot of information in it.

But like you said, it is a bit out of date with the new tech like weightmapping....but it definitely will give a solid background for most things you would need to know as basics.

I think there may be more recent versions than the one i linked......but the one for poser5 is the one i have in my library ;)

Well that's something, I'm glad to hear it was the go-to book to have.
I look forward to grabbing a coffee and getting my head into it :-)

Quote -
Yes and they add a layer of complexity to the product that isn't officially supported. If someone doesn't frequent the forums, they may not know how get the needed tools.  And direct support is not there for those aboved named figures, so they don't have much of a reach beyond the person making the product. 

There are ways to design figures that take all of that into account. But like Joe said, it does need scripting that's not limited to the pro version only.

~Shane

Thanks for the link to the book Rawnrr.  The most frustrating thing about tutorials is that they (mostly) all assume that you know the basics.  This book will hopefully fill in the basics.

Glad to share.

Rawn

Well, my book arrived yesterday (with a thud).
Full-colour even, and with a CD, wasn't expecting that!

Looks well illustrated as well, look forward to reading it, cheers :-)

Was just going thought my private messages and noticed that someone wasn't aware they had a reply (the message is unread).  Now I'm not saying any names coughbentbobbcough but I just thought I'd better mention it in case they thought I hadn't replied all that time ago.

:biggrin:

Quote -I used to use a program called 'Windows Media Encoder' a few years back, it was a free download from Microsoft that could do anything from screen recording to broadcasting live feeds etc.  I was blown away by the sophistication it had, don't know if it would work on your system with you having issues with other screen capture, but definitely worth a try.

Microsoft site says "not supported for windows 7". Don't know if that means it just won't work or what. I'll keep looking.

~Shane

Sorry Shane, haven't used it myself for years, I had no idea about the Windows 7 thing.  I used it on Vista though, and I've not come across anything that worked on that but not on Windows 7, so, still might work.

Seems odd that it's not supported on Windows 7 though, maybe they've created a program that replaces it and given it a different name.  It's a shame if they've discontinued it because it really was a super-powerful program!