So what happened to Dawn's fire ?

All I herd was Dawn's going to rule.

now I never even see a post about her.

So why isn't Dawn Ruleing ?

She has her following, content is slowly appearing, both commercial and free. And some commercial content has also been discounted once or twice to be more affordable. So the serious content collector, who has taken advantage of sales, should be able to do something nice with Dawn now. But no, she is not ruling by any means.

Why? Personally I find her look very distinctive. Attractive, but distinctive. She isn't a good blank canvas, in my opinion. It is not easy for the ordinary user to create a character that is not obviously Dawn using the official morphs. Dawn doesn't yet have a morph set to equal the flexibility offered by V4's Morphs++. It isn't even straightforward to just export the head to a modelling programme and make your own face morph, like it is with other figures. You have to make a whole body morph - the process is just a bit too complicated for the casual user. Because of that, I am not even tempted to get the texture converter to use V4 textures on Dawn. If I want to use a V4 character, I can just use V4 and have more flexibility in the morphs (The same applies to using V4 textures on Roxie, but that is a different matter).

However, the new African set at Hivewire opens up new possibilities and I will use Dawn more often, simply because that exists - due to my personal preference and needs. It may not make a difference to other users.

Dawn faces tough competition. V4 is still mighty, and the Genesis figures also have their following. Gearing up to really use a new figure to its full potential is expensive. Dawn is an alternative, expanding our options, nothing more.

I find that when I look at the promos for various things where presumably artists have done their best work (I really like promo art), i find that the dawn's on the whole don't look as good to me as the V4s.

Also I think she looks about 35 years old at least.

Love esther

NanetteTredoux : I don't understand what ya saying about morphing just Dawns face ?
could ya exsplain it more.is it how she's cut in to sections or something ?

I agree with Nanette. I don't think Dawn has matured enough yet to cause wholesale defection of V4 users.

V4's ascendancy over V3 wasn't immediate either. I didn't start using her until years after she was released.

Now that I have Blacksmith3d, and can convert textures, I may try my hand at doing morphs for Dawn. I didn't buy the packs because I, just like Nanette, didn't see them as offering me as much as I felt I'd need. If my morphing attempts work out, I'll likely use her quite a bit more often.

Quote - NanetteTredoux : I don't understand what ya saying about morphing just Dawns face ?
could ya exsplain it more.is it how she's cut in to sections or something ?

I think Nanette means you can't make a PBM for just Dawn's head. Her head and lower jaw are separate pieces so you need to do an FBM to get them both.

I haven't tried 2 PBMs with a controller morph yet though.

I'm not sure I see a problem. V4 has been out for at least eight years. Dawn has been out for just under a year. V4 didn't take over in a year either. I don't personally use Dawn, but I'm sure you realize that I'm a Roxie junkie by now. Plus, Dawn faces challenges that V4 never did.

Besides, most of the people who were really into Dawn have pretty much abandoned the Rendo forums and and are doing a  lot of posting over at Hivewire.

Quote - NanetteTredoux : I don't understand what ya saying about morphing just Dawns face ?
could ya exsplain it more.is it how she's cut in to sections or something ?

I believe Dawn is a single mesh figure, which is more optimal with weightmapping. Any morph that you make affects the whole figure, so you would need a utility that allows you to import the morph but only saving your changes to a morph file. Everything is treated as a full body morph as result (though you can name it a PBM). You can't export only the head portion of the mesh and import it back in because that would cause vertex order errors, since it is a single mesh.

Quote - I agree with Nanette. I don't think Dawn has matured enough yet to cause wholesale defection of V4 users.

V4's ascendancy over V3 wasn't immediate either. I didn't start using her until years after she was released.

Now that I have Blacksmith3d, and can convert textures, I may try my hand at doing morphs for Dawn. I didn't buy the packs because I, just like Nanette, didn't see them as offering me as much as I felt I'd need. If my morphing attempts work out, I'll likely use her quite a bit more often.

Dawn is actually past her maturity cycle and is on her way out. If she was maturing, gaining popularity or marketshare, content releases for her would at least maintain a steady level to this day, but content for her is far and in between compared to the popular figures. Content support for her has tapered off, with hardly any current major vendor support (maybe one or two).

So... will she magically get a boom of support? I doubt it. Seen it all before, same old same old...And there is a reason why she has little content support because she is mainly targeted to Poser users with the latest version. Only they can use her. People in Daz have the Genesis models. Add that up and that is a very limited market. V4 can be used by more Poser users because she is more compatable, and is why she will remain more popular than Dawn in this market and from a business perspective is not a good investment. Also V4 can pretty much do what Dawn can and Dawn does not really offer anything new. She is actually a step backward, and not a step forward in my opinion. I feel sorry for her male counterpart that must still be released. A lot of content developers have seen through the Hivewire hype, take that away and you're left with a model that brings nothing new feature wise.

" I feel sorry for her male counterpart that must still be released. A lot of content developers have seen through the Hivewire hype, take that away and you're left with a model that brings nothing new feature wise."

Sorry but I have to disagree with you there.  Every new figure is a learning process.  The male will undoubtedly be different, as will the teen.  These new ones might be imensely popular, depening on what they are like.

Just like M4 was better than V4. ie no magnets etc.

Love esther

Quote - > Quote - I agree with Nanette. I don't think Dawn has matured enough yet to cause wholesale defection of V4 users.

V4's ascendancy over V3 wasn't immediate either. I didn't start using her until years after she was released.

Now that I have Blacksmith3d, and can convert textures, I may try my hand at doing morphs for Dawn. I didn't buy the packs because I, just like Nanette, didn't see them as offering me as much as I felt I'd need. If my morphing attempts work out, I'll likely use her quite a bit more often.

Dawn is actually past her maturity cycle and is on her way out. If she was maturing, gaining popularity or marketshare, content releases for her would at least maintain a steady level to this day, but content for her is far and in between compared to the popular figures. Content support for her has tapered off, with hardly any current major vendor support (maybe one or two).

So... will she magically get a boom of support? I doubt it. Seen it all before, same old same old...And there is a reason why she has little content support because she is mainly targeted to Poser users with the latest version. Only they can use her. People in Daz have the Genesis models. Add that up and that is a very limited market. V4 can be used by more Poser users because she is more compatable, and is why she will remain more popular than Dawn in this market and from a business perspective is not a good investment. Also V4 can pretty much do what Dawn can and Dawn does not really offer anything new. She is actually a step backward, and not a step forward in my opinion. I feel sorry for her male counterpart that must still be released. A lot of content developers have seen through the Hivewire hype, take that away and you're left with a model that brings nothing new feature wise.

Spoken like someone who has a financial ox to gore. Major vendor support? What do you consider major? Or rather... who? And V4's days are numbered... literally. She's living on borrowed time. Meanwhile... Genesis still isn't the V4 killer everyone thought it would be. But the longer both Dawn and Genesis remain on the market, building up their content... Victoria 4 will fall! (dum, dum, dumm)

Yes, I was referring to the lower jaw and head being separate. I exported the head and looked at what was exported... I gave up right there and made a head morph for another figure instead. Vilters is right, new figures must be content creator friendly.

I don't really agree that Dawn is past maturity and on her way out. I do think she was released prematurely. A new figure needs a good set of morphs to make her versatile, even if I have to pay for them. Instead, the morphs came out in small, limited packages.

I had planned to use Dawn for the book I am illustrating, but after being unable to get the look I wanted with Dawn, I reverted to another figure (V3, as it happens), and everything fell into place with ease. 

There was too much hype when Dawn was released. Hyping up a product too much leads to people feeling let down eventually. Not a new era, just a new figure. 

Morph are easy to make with the GOz  facs morphs, body mrophs, 

love Xurges suite for Dawn 

here an example

actually v4 did throw v3 off her throne as soon as she was released.
but v4 is just a v3 upgrade so.

So
the way Dawn looks
The way Dawn's sectioned
is why she's not so popular

anymore probleams with her ?

GoZ only works if you have Z-brush, it doesn't help me. I make morphs in Blender.

I am personally prepared to give Dawn more time  and buy some more content for her at the right price - morphs and textures. And I am waiting for the male figure with interest.

I agree with Nannette. I do believe Dawn was rushed out too early, but I also believe Hivewire wanted to ride the wave of Poser's new release. Dawn would have been better received if she had a full morphs package.

Yep the morph pak would have been the definner for alot of people.

im fine waiting mounth longer to have amazing kickbutt morphs. 

like the Gen2 HDs morphs dang those are awesome

Dawn, with the Dawn texture, will always be Dawn. No matter how you morph the mesh.

The mesh is crying for far better and free textures.

A new figure "drives" on its free stuff. => No free stuff? => Figure as dead as a rock within days.

Hivewire started thinking in dollars about a year too soon.
They simply "forgot" to make their figure popular before starting to think in dollars.

Now it is too late, over and done with.
The "hype" they created is gone with the wind.

Actually, I feel sorry for them. The potential and the oportunity where there.
Now, they'r  both gone.

And I hope they realise:

You NEVER get a second chance to make a first impression.

Quote - And I hope they realise:

You NEVER get a second chance to make a first impression.

This^. Specially in this marketplace and especially with a new figure.

Dawn's release could have been better, true. Of course, we're talking with the benefit of hindsight here.

I can't give any educated opinion on the whole "Dawn" thing because I've not even bothered to download her.  That said, I think it would be a shame if she didn't do well, because I do like the idea behind her.

If I were to go into the business of developing a figure for use with both programs, I'm pretty sure I'd have gone the 'two versions' route as well.  Whoever created her deserves to do well because the logic behind her makes sense, makes it easy for the users, and doesn't discriminate either userbase.

To me that's 'good business', and good business deserves to do well.

Quote - I can't give any educated opinion on the whole "Dawn" thing because I've not even bothered to download her.  That said, I think it would be a shame if she didn't do well, because I do like the idea behind her.

If I were to go into the business of developing a figure for use with both programs, I'm pretty sure I'd have gone the 'two versions' route as well.  Whoever created her deserves to do well because the logic behind her makes sense, makes it easy for the users, and doesn't discriminate either userbase.

To me that's 'good business', and good business deserves to do well.

I'd like Dawn to succeed as well but I am not so convinced that having a figure that can work with both programs was such a good idea.  My main problem is I do not see the what group of people they are marketing to.  Many Poser users do not use Daz studio for different reasons so they are not bothered if their 'Poser' figure works in Daz.  A lot of Daz users already have a new better bending figure in Genesis so they are not that interested either.  Those that use both Studio and Poser have access to Genesis with no extra hoops to jump through.  That is not to say users will not use Dawn in either program, they will, I just don't see a vast number of people who benefit from a figure that works in both.

If it was an attempt to try and heal the split that some people felt a while ago, it was doomed from the start.   As for me I was really interested in Dawn until I saw the lack of morphs from day one or even month one.  From a personal point of view, as a Poser user, Dawn has so much in common with Genesis in that she does not give me anything I cannot do with V4WM.  I don't really care how old she is, or listen much to the prophets of doom, she has a place in my runtime until something better, not just new, comes along. 

Vilters, there are better textures now, I am happy about that. And more variety too, it is coming, but slowly. But I agree in one sense: The original texture, as well as the original shape, was too distinctive.

Quote - I'd like Dawn to succeed as well but I am not so convinced that having a figure that can work with both programs was such a good idea.  My main problem is I do not see the what group of people they are marketing to.  Many Poser users do not use Daz studio for different reasons so they are not bothered if their 'Poser' figure works in Daz.  A lot of Daz users already have a new better bending figure in Genesis so they are not that interested either.  Those that use both Studio and Poser have access to Genesis with no extra hoops to jump through.  That is not to say users will not use Dawn in either program, they will, I just don't see a vast number of people who benefit from a figure that works in both.

If it was an attempt to try and heal the split that some people felt a while ago, it was doomed from the start.   As for me I was really interested in Dawn until I saw the lack of morphs from day one or even month one.  From a personal point of view, as a Poser user, Dawn has so much in common with Genesis in that she does not give me anything I cannot do with V4WM.  I don't really care how old she is, or listen much to the prophets of doom, she has a place in my runtime until something better, not just new, comes along. 

 

I don't really see why that's a concern of the customer's. If Dawn works for you and you want to use it, then use her in whichever program works for you.

**
@Hornet**
Well, if there was a poor set of morphs distributed with her then that probably explains a lot.  The market is flooded with figures, so any newcomer is going to need plus-points to get noticed, not minus-points.

I can think of no bigger minus than not having a decent morph set to be going on with.  Sounds kinda suicidal from the outset so hopefully they'll rectify the situation with a quality set of morphs, something to rescue the effort already invested.

As I wrote before.

YOU NEVER GET A SECOND CHANCE TO MAKE A FIRST IMPRESSION.

Dawn is for the history books. All due to a complete mismanagement of the release.

Secondary issues.
So STRONG a texture that it overrides the mesh, whatever you do with it.
No morphs.
Bad morphs.
Non standard construction.
A DS figure, converted to Poser. (With TONS of internel errors)
And the list goes, on and on, and on, and on. . . . .

Even when they would geve gold bars away to each buyer, the ship is sinking, and its going down FAST.

The main issue I have with her mesh is the topology. It really restricts what you can do if you are aiming for realism sculpting wise. EG she does not allow for realistic muscle definition and details in a lot of places. Even Hivewires own muscle morphs are no comparison to V4's muscle morphs and same with the other shape groups. There is a huge gap in detail and realism anatomy wise.

But? i have to complement Dawn as well.
She lasted 21 minutes longer on my HD as Genesis did.

For the record :
As long as figure builders do not understand the difference between a balloon and a breast, we will never get a good figure.
Sometimes I wonder: Have they ever seen a naked woman in real life? ? ? ? 
I wonder.

Roxie being the exeption here. She has breasts.
They are only 2" too high on the chest, but she has breasts, and room in the mesh to lower them.

DAWN topology?

When I first saw her, I thought ; This is build somewhere in between the V3 and V4 period.
Just to reduce the ridiculous high polycount that was popular at that time.

Well, it must be an older mesh, as there are way to many tris, to be a modern mesh.

Quote -
I can't give any educated opinion on the whole "Dawn" thing because I've not even bothered to download her.  That said, I think it would be a shame if she didn't do well, because I do like the idea behind her.

If I were to go into the business of developing a figure for use with both programs, I'm pretty sure I'd have gone the 'two versions' route as well.  Whoever created her deserves to do well because the logic behind her makes sense, makes it easy for the users, and doesn't discriminate either userbase.

To me that's 'good business', and good business deserves to do well.

Actually I think it was bad business as you can see not a lot of content is available and most of it is in one program. While is sounds good on paper to customers, it shifted the burden of compatiblity to the vendors, and considering this is a business of small profit margins, not many ended up supporting that methodology. Any time you put the burden on vendors to do more for the same profit, the less those vendors are willing to do it.

Part of the hype that was generated was the fact that in the there were two native figures, there would be tech to convert content from one platform to another. As a result that generated a lot of excitement for those that felt they got abandoned when Genesis came along. However that tool was something that DAZ created and abandoned as there was too much fighting to even get the tool properly tested (CR2 exporter), and was missing a lot of stuff, and the fact you had to open DAZ Studio to get to it turned off a lot of people.

So really the two platforms came down to leaning to lots of content availability for one app, and limited in another because of the amount of work that is needed versus just creating content once and being able at least get in in both.

Quote - DAWN topology?

When I first saw her, I thought ; This is build somewhere in between the V3 and V4 period.
Just to reduce the ridiculous high polycount that was popular at that time.

Well, it must be an older mesh, as there are way to many tris, to be a modern mesh.

Tris on a mesh isn't really a problem, it's where they are located and what direction they are in. Sometimes they can really mess up a good sculpt based on their orientation.

Yes and we see how much support Roxie gets. There's about 5 people building anything for her, including SM.

Dawn however has her own web store, and her developers and fan base are still making content for her and other figures to go along with her, so all this talk about Dawn is over is nothing more than argument baiting.

Dawn so far has been the most successful non-daz figure released and it doesn't seem like she's going to disappear any time soon. Her forums remain active. The people that are using her and building content for her now will likely continue to use her and support Dawn2 whenever she releases, which I'm sure will be an improvement over Dawn1. Those people don't post here anymore because of people like some in this thread who think they have a clue about what is and isn't popular or going to last and just want to sling mud. 

So if you don't have anything constructive to add to the discussion then don't post. 

As for breasts, no one wants to see deflated meat flaps. They want breasts that look good in or out of clothing. 

~Shane

I never downloaded her either. The idea was interesting - well a new figure is always potentially interesting - but as soon as I saw the promos I lost interest. Didn't look anything close to V4 or GNDA2 and not very much different from V3. Not something I need. To live up to the hype she would've needed to be something much more.

I haven't followed Daz since Genesis was released, but they always seem to be very good at creating hype for a new figure (or variation on a figure) and then following through. I guess the guys who formed the Hivewire team weren't the ones responsible for the Daz figure launches.

**
@Male_M3dia**
It depends on what your definition of "good business" is.

Some people go into business where money is the only objective, and that's fine if you're wired like that, it's business after all.  But the problem with that business model is that it has a bottleneck right from the start: you're competing with everyone else in your field that have the same goal, whereas if your goal is not simply one of money, you are not so constrained by it (if at all).

Launching Dawn the way they did can be likened to promoting a new tablet platform without an app store, so as far as I can tell, any failure is down to the way it's been orchestrated, it's not down to the idea behind it; there's nothing wrong with the idea of supplying a dedicated version for each platform, and like I said, it benefits the user.

Vendor convenience is not important; customer convenience is.

The only real benefit (to the developer) in creating a single figure in two platform versions is branding, nothing else.  If the content is not compatible between them then they might as well be called totally different names and each have their own marketing campaign.  The only things identical between them, as far as I can tell, is the figure shape and the name, "Dawn", so I'm guessing the developer realised this when they took the decision to go this route.

Dawn appears to be a "branding" designed to give a feeling of unity across the two platforms, and that's a good idea, it's good business.  I think any failure is down to orchestration, not the base logic behind the idea.

Quote - I guess the guys who formed the Hivewire team weren't the ones responsible for the Daz figure launches.

Chris Creek was one of the co-founders of Zygote/Daz. Chris is one of the founders of Hivewire, along with Eric Merritt, also a co-founder of Zygote. Chris is also behind the ever popular "Dancing Baby", Dork, Posette, Victoria, and Michael.

"As for breasts, no one wants to see deflated meat flaps. They want breasts that look good in or out of clothing."*

Very true!

Quote - *
"As for breasts, no one wants to see deflated meat flaps. They want breasts that look good in or out of clothing."*

Very true!

Hope you two aren't married when you're 80. ;)

Quote - Vendor convenience is not important; customer convenience is.

Vendors are customers first. In regards to Poser figures, vendor convenience is pretty important, unless you want to be the only one making content for that figure. Most of the end users aren't the ones making content. The end users are only going to use figures that content is available for. They're not interested in fighting with the fitting room, any more than they're interested in fighting with dynamic clothing or dynamic hair. The load-click-render users are still the driving force behind most vendor's sales. So it comes down to how good a figure is designed and how easy it is to use content for it, and make content for it, since without vendor support, a figure will never be widely used.  

Quote - > Quote - "*

"As for breasts, no one wants to see deflated meat flaps. They want breasts that look good in or out of clothing."*

Very true!

Hope you two aren't married when you're 80. ;)

lol. Well, I'll never be married. But for the rest out there, that's why plastic surgeons make millions doing what they do. 

~Shane

Quote - lol. Well, I'll never be married. But for the rest out there, that's why plastic surgeons make millions doing what they do.   

~Shane

Ah yes, the realistic, and more expensive, morph brush.

Quote - Yes and we see how much support Roxie gets. There's about 5 people building anything for her, including SM.

Dawn however has her own web store, and her developers and fan base are still making content for her and other figures to go along with her, so all this talk about Dawn is over is nothing more than argument baiting.

Dawn so far has been the most successful non-daz figure released and it doesn't seem like she's going to disappear any time soon. Her forums remain active. The people that are using her and building content for her now will likely continue to use her and support Dawn2 whenever she releases, which I'm sure will be an improvement over Dawn1. Those people don't post here anymore because of people like some in this thread who think they have a clue about what is and isn't popular or going to last and just want to sling mud. 

So if you don't have anything constructive to add to the discussion then don't post. 

 

As for breasts, no one wants to see deflated meat flaps. They want breasts that look good in or out of clothing. 

 

~Shane

I Agree. with what you said,  

"So if you don't have anything constructive to add to the discussion then don't post."

I'd like to add.. +10,000,000^Pi for ALL threads

In the V1 days there was about 3 CGI Artist on the entire planet that could model characters.

Chris Creek modeled V1 a.k.a. posetta,V2,V3,V4,V5 & Dawn.
can't remember V2 topology.but V3 to V6 ya can see the topologys built from the one before.So even if he's names not on V6 he's influence still is.

All the coments about Dawn's imperfections.
We could make a list about any meshes imperfections.
There not perfect.

I just can't believe Criss Creek can't conquer it all.

Quote - In the V1 days there was about 3 CGI Artist on the entire planet that could model characters.

Chris Creek modeled V1 a.k.a. posetta,V2,V3,V4,V5 & Dawn.
can't remember V2 topology.but V3 to V6 ya can see the topologys built from the one before.So even if he's names not on V6 he's influence still is.

All the coments about Dawn's imperfections.
We could make a list about any meshes imperfections.
There not perfect.

I just can't believe Criss Creek can't conquer it all.

 

Well, armed with a gallen of chocolet milk oreio cookies bage of coolranch doritoes, he will, O he will

Unfortunately, I look, check, compare and delete balloon figures.

Hey, I have been modifying balloons into breast from as long ago as Poser3.

Figures from SM, DAZ, or whatever, I do not care any more where they come from.

If they do not get it by now? So Sorry, but under the Delete button they go.

I am sick and tired of pulling vertices around.

Iif they still do not get it by now? It is THEIR problem, not mine.

I do not know that particular "Chris" , but I think it is time for most figure creators to drop the "theroretical correct references", and to look at a real woman in real life.

Lets face it, no new character will ever take off at this point.

People complain that there are no new characters of any value, and as soon as a new one is released it is bashed to pieces before it can even take hold.

Lots of people wanted standardized versions on Antonia. How long did that last?

Then they wanted a weight mapped version of Antonia, Same deal...

People wanted a weight mapped V4, that didn't last much longer.... And there are more than a few versions now to boot.

I could go on and on, but the story is the same. The arm chair developers control what happens to a figure by what they post.

There are a lot of arm chair developers around that bash everything that appears, because it isn't "insert whatever". Some have never even downloaded it and admit that. Sort of ironic isn't it....

If anyone else thinks they can create the next big figure, best of luck.

You can give people exactly what they ask for, and they still complain about "insert whatever".

Been there, done that......... On many characters....

The only way to force a new characters reign, is to remove reverse compatability in the programs. We all know that wont happen any time soon. The arm chair developers would have a fit....

/Carry on......

Quote - .... but I think it is time for most figure creators to drop the "theroretical correct references", and to look at a real woman in real life.

Tony, I think you are (almost) alone in that respect. Most users want a pretty figure which looks real in their (not very accurate) mind. 

And even if you want to create a realistic figure - how should it look like? There is so much diversity among humans that whatever you make, it won't be acceptable for the majority of the potential users.

On the Poser spec, IMHO, the base right now that should be developed for is Poser 9 (2012 is included obviously).  Poser 9 is the minimum for newer script support, addon support, weight-mapping, sub-surface scattering and other things that really shine through for current generation products (not to be confused with Victoria's generation).  It's what you need if you wish to utilize Reality, Octane, DSON for Genesis in Poser (without baking it as a DS export) and that sort of thing.  So in my mind it's the base and as we go to further Poser versions, that will be more cemented.  For too long, Poser 4 has been the base and it's time to step it up.

But with saying that, all those toys and features are still options and that's the way it should be.  SM has a good track record for keeping things backwards compatible, so you can still use non-weighted content and you can mix and match it.  Poser's grouped object system may not be standard (when you look at games and other things like that) but it does build on what was there before instead of just replacing it and sorry, but I think that's a smart move.  Not only does it give youi the option of hybridization but it allows you to conform non-weighted content to weighted content and vice-versa.  And frankly, the all-in-one object is true in games but they are still broken down into weighted body parts, it's just that the divisions are cut on the rigging level (and can overlap).

Sorry but the OP's initial post does come off as something of a taunt.  Sure it's legitimate to wonder and discuss the pole position of where the various figures are at but the initial wording invites fighting.

You can dissect every figure and find flaws.  Certainly the queen bea Victoria 4 flaws too, even when she was new.  And by the way, I disagree that V3 was ousted immediately.  It took some time to gain momentum and there weren't replacements for Aiko 3, Stephanie Petite or The Girl ready out of the gate.  And speaking only for Aiko, the figure had a significant chunk of fans.  Plus, at that time, DAZ was the only game in town and we had a two-way road between Poser and DS (with already existing blocks).  Now we are dealing with a fragmented overview.  Out of that fragmentation, "most" users use Victoria 4, but I think that "most" is certainly smaller than it used to be.  But again, we only know what we can touch and see, so that means we only know by the response in our community, which is significantly smaller than the pool of larger buyers.

Scott is right in that any new figure is going to be ripped to shreds and even if you scan a real human and build an exact copy as a figure, someone will find flaws with it.  For every text-book dissection of the human anatomy, there are multiple exceptions.  There is no example of "every real woman" - there is just way too many differences from one person to the next.  You're not going to please everyone and the best you can do is hopefully please a large portion.

The best you could do for Dawn 2, if you cared to, is note what you don't like and give constructive reasons why.  This is what I would cite but before I put it out, I want to say that none of it is such a barrier that it can't be worked around or worked into.

• The extra body cuts don't seem to really add much benefit, particularly when it comes to being weight mapped.  I would go through and use the kiss principle to eliminate extra cuts if they aren't significantly adding anything positive.  Two necks was tried on V1/V2.  We even had extra buttock parts on V3.  I don't think it's really necessary and just adds more cuts to deal with for content development.  Dropping a Pelvis under hip is interesting but is it adding something so non-standard that causes extra work in conversion or rigging without any real benefit? - types of internal questions to ask.

• The jaw split from the head makes it automatically tricky to create head morphs or to produce work where weight maps are projected and need the "head" but not the jaw.  There's no real good reason to split the jaw when open mouth and jaw shifting morphs can already be designed.

• The big faerie secondary lashes make it additionally tricky to create head morphs.  I think it would have been better to just include faerie whatzits as morph targets.

I think those are the biggest hang-ups.  Yes, I could also say that DS and Poser in the WM department are too different and there are not enough cross-tools to get the job done and heal the divide.  But I personally don't mind if content divulges and some is available here and some over there, in terms of apps.  Unless there are two-way street tools to facilitate 2 different workflows of content creation and rigging, that's what you are going to have.

As far as which pizza reigns supreme, even if Dawn has a niche, as long as it is significant enough, that's fine.  Unless the tech gets closed off, which has been already noted, any non-V4 figure is going to be niche as long as content is still created for V4 to the degree we've had for 8 years.  That includes Roxie, Genesis and any other figure you want to write down.  Large niches, small niches, doesn't matter, they are still below the queen bea.

Truth is, you can find a "flaw" with every person on the planet. There's no such thing as a "perfect" human specimen.

V4 had 2 official updates to fix flaws and she STILL has flaws. Some of the hottest supermodels on the planet get airbrushed to eliminated some of their flaws. Why should the digital world be any different?

"There's no such thing as a "perfect" human specimen."

*You've obvously never met me :lol:

I'm so perfect that I get endless letters from women asking me to donate sperm to one of those futuristic sperm banks.  I've been contacted, on numerous occasions, due to my incredible intelligence, asking if I'd donate my brain to scientific research.

And last but certainly not least, I get sexual offerings from the worlds most beautiful women on a daily basis.  Trouble is, if I fall prey to that one then I obviously forfeit my chance of earning money from the sperm bank.*

Then I woke up.

It's too bad JoePublic's "Danielle" for Dawn never came to fruition. Wonder if HW3D's stance on encoded CR2s have laxed a little now that she's been out for a bit.

Did they have a strong stance on alternate cr2s?  If the morphs are pmd and the geometry is elsewhere, then why?  I never understood that one, unless it's used to develop a competing figure.