What do you think made V4 so popular? You can make the argumentt that she was a Daz figure, but you can make the same argument about Aiko and Stephanie Petite. You can make the argument that it was the mesh, but then why not the Aiko 4 or Stephanie 4 morphs for her?

DAZ was there ,always standing behind there mesh ,upgrading there mesh
,making stuff for there mesh.pushing there mesh.like no one else ever has.
Probably why no other have had as much succes as DAZ.

My theory: If you look at the clothes that were released for V4 and her spin-offs (S4, A4, G4), they all fit V4, but only some fit the others. If you've collected a lot of content (for instance, you're a PC member), after a while it gets tiring trying to keep track of what fits whom. It's just easier to say, unless I really need a short chick or a stylized toon, to hell with it, I'll use V4 as my default.

I know you can add the morphs using various utilities. But I'm guessing that, for a great many people who only have a couple of hours a week to spend on their hobby, that's too much trouble.

Stephanie 4 is a bit redundent.
shes more or less just a exspensive V4 morph that none of V4 cloths will work on unless venders made there cloths for V4 & Stephanie 4
not every V4 vender made Stephanie 4 stuff.

Same thing for A4 & most liked A3 looks better then A4.

V4 Morphs ++ was released along with V4 Base and gave you the possibility to create many different body/face combinations  - this is what Dawn lacked upon release.   If you look at early renders of V4 you can see how people were excited at the prospect of "unlocking" so many characters instead of having to pay for a FBM and texture as if it was a whole new figure like Gen2. 

Carodan's gallery is a good example of the early V4 renders that really grabbed my attention.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1342960&username=carodan&page=3&member&np

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1343930&username=carodan&page=3&member&np

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1359409&username=carodan&page=3&member&np

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1342267&username=carodan&page=3&member&np

Whether people actually used those morphs or not is another story but with single axis scaling fixed in Poser, the various V4 fixes and the multitude of clothing and accessories available, it will still be some time before she's dethroned.

Quote - My theory: If you look at the clothes that were released for V4 and her spin-offs (S4, A4, G4), they all fit V4, but only some fit the others. If you've collected a lot of content (for instance, you're a PC member), after a while it gets tiring trying to keep track of what fits whom. It's just easier to say, unless I really need a short chick or a stylized toon, to hell with it, I'll use V4 as my default.

I know you can add the morphs using various utilities. But I'm guessing that, for a great many people who only have a couple of hours a week to spend on their hobby, that's too much trouble.

I'll go you one better.  V4 had some of the raciest, sexy and slutty clothes around. That includes V3.  I'm begining to think that despite what people say they want or like they actually LIKE buying racy clothes for V4. I mean, SOMEBODY was buying them and despite what a lot of people say, people were buying the slut stuff.

Yep, people obviously buy the skimpwear.

Is it that it sells better than other stuff because people really want it that much more? Or is it that it simply sells better relative to the work put in to make it? Factor in the effect of price on the number of sales, as well....

I mean, a miniskirt is easier to model and rig than a pair of pants, right? So it takes you 5 hours to make the skirt, instead of 10 hours to make the pants. As a result, you charge less for the skirt. So it sells better. And you conclude that short skirts are better sellers than pants. What's your next project going to be?

Just hypothesizing...

I think Wiz said it better in a different thread: Fewer polygons! :D :D

One reason for her popularity was that she had no competition for a LONG time.
V4 came out, along with the ++ pack, and was heavily promoted at he time.
Then SM released a next version of Poser with no new figures.

That was almost a 4 year time gap that SM did no new figure release.

So V4 kelpt on rolling, and content free and to pay for, continued.

After this, most end users where way over their point of no return in investment.
They invested a lot of $$$ in V4 cothing, and that is also the reason why she is not gonna die out soon.

Any figure that wants to "beat" V4, will have to be soo special, soo perfect, so versatile, that it is close to impossible to do so.

And a new figure starting without support content, has to compete with V4 that has thousands and thousands of free and to pay for items ready.

I wrote this before;
If anybody would like to release a new figure?
They will have to SATURATE the freestuff area's for AT LEAST 6 months, in order to start having a chance to compete.

Only the creators can make a new figure popular enough, for content creators to jump in.
If a creator fails to make his/her figure popular before thinking in dollars? Forget it.

But who has the resourses to run a full first year on a red bank account......

Actually, as far as I know, Poser has come out with a new figure for every release since Poser 4. Well, new or reworked.

Poser 4 was Posette the P4 woman

Poser 5 was Judy and Don

Poser 6 was Jessie and James

Poser 7 was Sydney and Simon

Poser 8 was Alyson and Ryan

Poser 9 was Alyson 2 and Ryan 2

and Poser 10 is Rex and Roxie.

Quote - But who has the resourses to run a full first year on a red bank account......

I do, but I can't model. And I certainly can't model a figure. And even if I could model a figure and rig it, I can't model and rig a figure that would be better than what's already out there. 

The other way to not make money in the first year would be to create a marketplace centered around the figure and offer vendors a very good deal to sell non-exclusive content, and an irresistible deal on exclusive content related to your figure (100% minus just enough to cover payment processing/merchant account fees). I don't know that it would be a good enough offer.  But it might get you some additional support.

Conversely, you could lose money in the first year by running it like a publishing house. Offer advances to trusted content creators -- for products that support your figure -- advances that will be repaid by subtracting from sales of that product on your site. You could offer bigger advances to those who had already created product for your figure; smaller ones for those who were doing it just on a contract basis. It would be risky. But success in a very tight market requires a certain willingness to take risks. 

But, yes. Something like 80% of all businesses fail in the first year because their owner/operators expect or need to make money. You're much more likely to succeed in your second if you can make it through your first, even if you're deep in the red at the end of the first year.

DAZ has a deserving reputation of releasing good figures (as it is generally true concerning the history of the Victoria line) and supporting them, with merchants on board on site that are willing to do the same.  They are willing to do buyouts put those products under the originals banner, which even if its made by someone esle, shows direct support by the company.  They have a mix of low and high price items to support the figure.  The base figure, itself, is free, so there's no risk to check it out.

Merchants at other sites know DAZ reputation and make items also, knowing that they are going to have a better than average shot at doing well.

It all builds speed from there.  Galleries, Freebies, products from all over.

I don't really think it has to do with piles of freebies over an extended period, but I respect your opinion.  I think it more has to do with offering a free or low-cost version of the base figure, which makes the figure accessible and risk-light to check out - I think that's a primary step.  Then it has to do with offering features, from the start, that are competitive to other figures on the market.  Have the morph packs ready to go, the catsuit, a basic wardrobe and so on (they don't have to be free).  You don't have to have every single miniscule thing in there but enough that it shows what direction you are going in.  Then you have to support your own figure with addons and packs, even if they are buyouts or sourced to developers to take care of.  Water the seed, nuture it, take care of the plant that sprouts forth.

Now, of course, where we are at now with V4 has to do with history.  The landscape was different when V4 was released and several years afterwards.  There were no alternate rigging systems so everything was done in spheres.  Now, we have a large fragmentation between the various figures, how they are composed, what they will work in and to what extent.  Everything was more or less cross-compatible between the systems.

Now it's a scenario where there are significant numbers of users using older versions of Poser (this percentage also varies per site) or sticking with V4 because across all the versions, they likely feel there is more bang for their time spent and unless folks feel there is something compelling and competitive with any new figures that come out, it's probably where it's going to stay.

I don't really feel that tying a new figure directly into a release of Poser is really going to do it because that's more about using the figure as a selling point for the program, that requires an investment, instead of releasing the figure into their marketplace with a free or lite version.  What would be better, IHMO, to have an advanced version as a selling point for Poser with accessories and clothes or whatnot as new content and go that way instead.  Otherwise have the figure accessible to a larger audience, even if it's limited to Poser 9+.

The way I personally feel as a creative artist...  I'm not going to sit around and rig stuff in spherical zones  when I have weight-mapping to play with and I feel is superior on many different levels - more of a huge preference than a rule, BTW.  I'm going to tap into modern features (Poser modern, not what the rest of the planet is involved with) if I can, going back at least one version or so, if possible.  When Poser 11 comes out, we'll have 3 versions to tap into, just concerning weighting, dependent parameters and SSS.  That at least gives a common ground between the versions and you can add higher features for higher versions of the program as options or whatnot.

Hope this thread doesn't spiral out and stays calm. :)

To be honest, I think I moved to V4 because she was the latest and greatest at the time.  I paid,  $19.48 as a sale price, the full price was $29.95, for V4 complete and really did not have a clue at the time why she was better than V3.  That was way back in December 2006 according to my records.  I dread to think how much I paid out for the new figure in 2007 and I really do not want to know how much I have paid since.

Point is I am using almost the same figure today for a number of good reasons.  The prime reason for this is that, while others see V4 as outdated, I see V4 and having matured.  I now use V4.2 and the V4WM version of that, developments in Poser such as SSS, have improved her skin textures and people have become skilled at making morphs for her.  Many of the 'problems' have been ironed out with weight mapping and I also use the 'perfect' range of fixes.  What problems may be left are often dealt with using the now, very usable, morph brush

The end result is I have a character I have developed over the last few years, she has even 'aged' in my more recent renders.  I think she is this is her fifth Dr Who style re-incarnation.  I can't model so the character is a mix of some 30 different morphs and about 20 different textures all blended to look like one texture.  Compared with V4 base she is around 90% shorter and has gained a few years, freckles, a few scars and a couple of tattoos, so I have a character that, in a sense I can call my own.

One final plus, I also use M4 which, as other male figures, had a distinct lack of clothes.  As much of my work is Sc-Fi based I am able to convert a good precentage of V4 stuff to M4.

My character is far from perfect and many may find her disproportionate and maybe even downright ugly.  For me though she is a creation I am proud of, have had years of fun building (including some frustration when things did not work), and suits my personal needs for book illustration.  Given all this it would be wrong of me to expect Dawn, Genesis, or any other new figure to work at the level I want straight from the box.  One or two figures may reach that point but for me V4 is still full of life and I do not see that changing any time soon.

She looked better than the figures that came with Poser, and people choose whatever looks best, providing it's affordable to them.

V4 ticked both those boxes.

Quote - DAZ has a deserving reputation of releasing good figures (as it is generally true concerning the history of the Victoria line) and supporting them, with merchants on board on site that are willing to do the same.  They are willing to do buyouts put those products under the originals banner, which even if its made by someone esle, shows direct support by the company.  They have a mix of low and high price items to support the figure.  The base figure, itself, is free, so there's no risk to check it out.

Merchants at other sites know DAZ reputation and make items also, knowing that they are going to have a better than average shot at doing well.

It all builds speed from there.  Galleries, Freebies, products from all over.

I don't really think it has to do with piles of freebies over an extended period, but I respect your opinion.  I think it more has to do with offering a free or low-cost version of the base figure, which makes the figure accessible and risk-light to check out - I think that's a primary step.  Then it has to do with offering features, from the start, that are competitive to other figures on the market.  Have the morph packs ready to go, the catsuit, a basic wardrobe and so on (they don't have to be free).  You don't have to have every single miniscule thing in there but enough that it shows what direction you are going in.  Then you have to support your own figure with addons and packs, even if they are buyouts or sourced to developers to take care of.  Water the seed, nuture it, take care of the plant that sprouts forth.

Hope this thread doesn't spiral out and stays calm. :)

Actually, vilters may have a point about the freebies. I recall that when DAZ first started, a lot of sites were giving away freestuff, mainly for the P4 woman. Poser world was one of them, as well as Fairyworld.

That was about the time that DAZ came out with Victoria 1, or Millie the millenium Woman. I think she cast somewhere in the neightborhood of $30 at the time and was outrageously priced. I also remember DAZ was giving away freebies of things like trash cans and stuff on a weekly basis. It was one of the things that finally lured me into joining the DAZ forum. Even then it took almost two years. I didn't actually buy Vickie until they came out with V2. I bought V1 which was around $20 by then then got the upgrade for free. Of course, the morphs were included in the base figure at the time.

V4 outclasses every other figure with the amount of clothes, hair, morphs, skin sets, fixes, user support and stability in Poser.

You want a genie, steampunk warrior, startrek officer, belly dancer or queen? V4 has plenty of choice there. Having those converted to any other figure needs a lot of effort to get satisfactory results

So maybe ease of use is the right answer

I paid nothing for V4, the base figure was free, as were all the Daz base figures at the time. I bought the morphs and content only - but the morph pack was loaded. That made all the difference.

I think it is the quality of the morphs that made her succeed. By the time I became interested in Poser, V4 was already popular, so I don't really know how she was launched. But the message I got initially was - she is supported, you can get stuff for her (free and paid for), you can do almost anything with her. And I never felt that those claims were unrealistic. African characters were available - important to me. At the time I couldn't model to save my life, and my texturing skills were limited. Getting the base figure free and being able to do so much with it for a small outlay was a bonanza.

Her downside when I started using her, was that she was high-poly and this limited what I could put in my scenes.

Quote - I paid nothing for V4, the base figure was free, as were all the Daz base figures at the time. I bought the morphs and content only - but the morph pack was loaded. That made all the difference.

I think it is the quality of the morphs that made her succeed. By the time I became interested in Poser, V4 was already popular, so I don't really know how she was launched. But the message I got initially was - she is supported, you can get stuff for her (free and paid for), you can do almost anything with her. And I never felt that those claims were unrealistic. African characters were available - important to me. At the time I couldn't model to save my life, and my texturing skills were limited. Getting the base figure free and being able to do so much with it for a small outlay was a bonanza.

Her downside when I started using her, was that she was high-poly and this limited what I could put in my scenes.

Yeah Nanette, I'm with you. The morphs are really important to me. My favorites are the Capsces series of morphs. I actually use M4 and K4 more than V4 and for some reason I like having a full family, man, woman, and child that have a similar look even though I may not use them together. The different ethnic variations are important as well and Capsces has African, Asian, Indian and European faces to get you started as well as some premade body shapes. All in one package. Some may not like their "artistic" look but I find it unique.

Creature Creator is also a plus. Once again cross gender with a number of third party tools to add them to your K4 figures. Add in morphs++, pretty much any skin shade you can imagine and "niche" clothing such as African, Egyptian, Victorian, and Native American and the Gen 4 figures are extremely versitile.

Long Live V4!!  I always use her for my female characters....

Quote - What do you think made V4 so popular? You can make the argumentt that she was a Daz figure, but you can make the same argument about Aiko and Stephanie Petite. You can make the argument that it was the mesh, but then why not the Aiko 4 or Stephanie 4 morphs for her?

Well. since you asked :blink: 

IMVHO she was the best quality figure and the best supported figure for a long time. V4 also is currently the "best" figure (both in quality and support) that can be used in any version of Poser from 4 up,  and in any version of DS. When she came out, she was considered by most users to be the most realistic figure available.

You also have to have V4 to use S4, Aiko 4, or G4. Most cloths that fit S4, A4, or G4, also fit V4 (actually, the cloths were suposed to be designed for V4, with morphs for the other figures to "work properly"), which kinda makes V4 the default figure that most of the content providors would create for, even if their goal was to create for the other figures.

Top notch quality, top notch support, and tons of images in the galleries made her popularity soar.

Quote - I'll go you one better.  V4 had some of the raciest, sexy and slutty clothes around. That includes V3.  I'm begining to think that despite what people say they want or like they actually LIKE buying racy clothes for V4. I mean, SOMEBODY was buying them and despite what a lot of people say, people were buying the slut stuff.

Keep in mind it's forumites that your listening to when people are saying they don't want racy or skimpy cloths. This, or any forum, represents a very small segment of the user base. Looking through the galleries here, at RDNA, and even at DAZ tells a completely different story. Keep in mind that galleries also represent only a small portion of the user base as well.

I'm not very vocal about it here (for obvious reasons), and I may be representative of only a small portion of the user base as well (though I don't think I am). But for what it's worth, I didn't start using Poser so I could make images of everyday people doing everyday things. Sure, I may make an "everyday" image every now and then, but it's the exception rather than the rule. I started using Poser so I could make "fantasy" type images (for lack of a better term). I want to make images of things you don't see everyday. I live reality, and for reality all I need to do is look around - it's everywhere!!

I've always been a fan of Frazetta, Vellejo, etc., but don't have the artistic ability to draw/paint human figures worth a darn. So, Poser, DS, and Carrara give me the ability to make fantasy images with human figures (toons too). Yes, I am guilty of making NVIATWAS images! I am guilty of buying more skimp wear, skank wear, slut wear, or whatever you want to call it than everyday clothing. Yes, I have bought impracticle armor too, because I'm not trying to create reality, or create historicaly accurate images. I'm trying to make 3D images of worlds/realms that never existed with fantasy heroines, an occasional "pin-up" style render, and the occasional contemporary or fantasy image with more practicle clothing (usually because I want to either use a really nice scene I picked up, or some outstanding quality clothing).

IMVHO, and this is just my opinion, though there is a lot of ancillary evidence that supports my opinion, everyday wear is not as popular due to the simple fact that most Poser/DS users are using content to create 3D images that aren't a true reflection of reality. I think many (most?) users are like me, they want to create Fantasy, SiFi, Pin-up, etc. type of images, that are not true depictions of everyday reality. I you want images that are a true depiction of reality, a digital camera is much easier, faster, and cheaper than Poser (though if you want Pin-ups - modeling fees add up in a hurry :blink: ).

Quote - > Quote - What do you think made V4 so popular? You can make the argumentt that she was a Daz figure, but you can make the same argument about Aiko and Stephanie Petite. You can make the argument that it was the mesh, but then why not the Aiko 4 or Stephanie 4 morphs for her?

Well. since you asked :blink: 

IMVHO she was the best quality figure and the best supported figure for a long time. V4 also is currently the "best" figure (both in quality and support) that can be used in any version of Poser from 4 up,  and in any version of DS. When she came out, she was considered by most users to be the most realistic figure available.

You also have to have V4 to use S4, Aiko 4, or G4. Most cloths that fit S4, A4, or G4, also fit V4 (actually, the cloths were suposed to be designed for V4, with morphs for the other figures to "work properly"), which kinda makes V4 the default figure that most of the content providors would create for, even if their goal was to create for the other figures.

Top notch quality, top notch support, and tons of images in the galleries made her popularity soar.

I gotta applaud that! 

V4 had everything going right for her, and that continued on for years, it is very hard beat that kind of popularity.  

Quote - I've always been a fan of Frazetta, Vellejo, etc., but don't have the artistic ability to draw/paint human figures worth a darn. So, Poser, DS, and Carrara give me the ability to make fantasy images with human figures (toons too). Yes, I am guilty of making NVIATWAS images! I am guilty of buying more skimp wear, skank wear, slut wear, or whatever you want to call it than everyday clothing. Yes, I have bought impracticle armor too, because I'm not trying to create reality, or create historicaly accurate images. I'm trying to make 3D images of worlds/realms that never existed with fantasy heroines, an occasional "pin-up" style render, and the occasional contemporary or fantasy image with more practicle clothing (usually because I want to either use a really nice scene I picked up, or some outstanding quality clothing).

I'd be lying if I said I didn't frequently render scantily clad fantasy/scifi heroes and heroines. I'm a Frazetta, Vallejo, Royo fan, too. And I got into CG because I am lousy at drawing figures, as well. :) 

It's not the existence of slutwear that I find odd, or even its popularity. It's the fact that it is soooo dominant. I mean, you would think that the back catalogs would have enough mini skirts, micro bikinis, and skin tight half shirts that no one would want to buy more. But it seems that, despite the enormous supply, the demand for more is endless. :D :D

What for me the most important property for a 3D-model is, is the face. And IMHO V4 has the most versatile and morphable face of any other released model. V3 was rather good, but V4 is better. The topology is that good, that you can almost make any lookalike or reallife face with just the ++morphs and has superb possibilities for real extreme or just subtile expressions.

Genesis and Genesis2 are in that view a step back. And you can have arguments like the proportions are better, or she bends better, if the face isn't good the whole model is spoiled. In that opinion Poser-manufactures have hopelessly failed in the past years and inspite of the high expectations Dawn was a big disappointment for me.

And you can argue why I want to make reallife renders: The holy grail and purpose of GC is making reallife renders, even when you make a character like Shrek, you want to make his burlap pants look like  he's wearing burlap pants. And under all circumstances he has to look like Shrek: when he's happy, when he's angry, when he's sad...

Too often have I spent hours with Judy, Jessi and Sydney with the faceroom or morphs to make them look "different" and when I gave them an expression (with the built-in morphs) the whole face changed back. Which never happened with V4.

I think there is a simple economical explanation for it : Smithmicro (or any poser-producer in the past) makes software and pays less attention to its content and DAZ makes content and pays less attention to its software (allthough it's getting better with every incarnation) So we have to live with that, but it would be better for the users and in the end also more profitable for SM and DAZ if they had worked together and made some synergy.

best regards,

Bopper.

I will say this-- V4 has the most extensive closet of clothes. That includes other time periods, which has, so far at least, sealed the deal when it comes to using certain figures in graphic novels. My biggest regret with her however is the lack of diversity she provides in charcters. Granted, I can put a differnt face on her and have a whole new character, but there's very little diversity in body types for her. Everyone is a six foot amazon around her.  That's one of the reason I liked Stephanie 3&4 so much. They added a bit of body type variety to the DAZ world.

On the other hand, Poser's native figures offer a whole stable of body type diversity. And now with the fitting room at hand, at least until I learn how to make some of these outfits myself, I can simply take some of the outfits for V4, like medieval clothes and make them fit other figures like Roxie or Sydney or Anastasia.

Quote - It's not the existence of slutwear that I find odd, or even its popularity. It's the fact that it is soooo dominant. I mean, you would think that the back catalogs would have enough mini skirts, micro bikinis, and skin tight half shirts that no one would want to buy more. But it seems that, despite the enormous supply, the demand for more is endless. :D :D

You have a point there that's rather hard to explain. It seems that there are a lot of content collectors, and/or people who make a lot of impulse purchases (i.e. see something they like, they buy it while on sale because they might use it someday). So, whatever style they like, maybe they tend to buy every incarnation of it that looks great in the promos because they might use it some day.

In the occasional threads on various forums about spending too much on content, it's not uncommon for several people to respond about spending thousands a year on content. Many others post about montly content budgets of $100 or more.That alone makes me think many people may be puchasing similar content .... repeatedly, because they might use it (maybe they do use it all - it takes me way to long to set up a scene to even come close to using that much content). Therefor I think there might be a lot of content "collectors" that buy a lot of it.

Of course, if your doing a scene with multiple figures, having multiple versions of similar clothing would make sense. Even though it seems to me like I have way to many similar "fantasy" costumes, when I make multiple figure scenes, I quickly realize just how limited my collection is. Often items that in my mind seem very similar, when placed together in a scene, they really don't look quite right together in the same scene. Soooo, maybe getting numerous similar items of skimp wear really does make sense? A V4 character in impracticle armor can look rather silliy next to one in full armor 

Although I am certainly guilty of buying too much, something I do every month, but then I don't drink, don't smoke, can't draw or sing and I have never been God's gift to women so I have to spend my money on something.   I do however play with the materials to make the outfits either look different or, in the case of uniforms, the same.  I tend to co-ordinate colours and badges across a number of different products and convert the items to work with M4, again to give a 'crew look'.  In some cases I will buy items that I know I will never use with the supplied materials, particularly if they are on sale. 

I wonder how many people buy very similar items to have variety when they could achieve the same thing by playing with the materials.

I agree that a figure should be "non-hideous" out of the box.  It shouldn't be a total shocker.  Whether a head is pretty or not is completely subjective though.

I'm confused about the base face being extremely important because it can be morphed, even if you have to go to the morph brush to do it.

At worst, I think you can say the Genesis faces are plain but I've seen some fantastic faces come out of them.

IMHO V4 looks "stern" out of the box but not hideous.  Roxie is plain but I think there is some cuteness in there.  Dawn has a long face and the jaw makes it semi-tricky to change because you have to be be careful to not morph too far away from the jaw "bone".  Alyson is one I didn't like at all out of the box, still morphable but I'd need a bake a new face into that mesh.

If you're going to just load and not shape the face at all and just maybe blink the eyes and smile, I guess the default look would be very important.  But if the morph packs are top-notch, you should be able to get different faces on a figure.  And that's not to attack what people look for, but if folks aren't going to adjust proportions and the mesh or morphs don't facilitate that, then they aren't going to be happy with the figure and it isn't going to be as versatile as it could have been.

In V4's defense we did not have the scaling features that worked on clothing when V4 came out, so you were really left with the base proportions and reliance on good morph packs for that.

These days, using a reasonably modern version of Poser, if good scaling is designed for the figure, it could be applied to clothes automatically and you can change whatever proportions you would like to.  That's one thing that would be (and should be) a step up.

It's too bad we didn't get an official V4.5 with weight-mapping, re-worked scaling, SSS and so on.  I am well aware of the WM variants but you need a single, official (or community adopted) version to have a foothold for it to be successful.

Any new figure, you need some good, solid reasons of what new you want to bring to the table, otherwise there's no point and it's just another figure, speaking of humans of course.  I can't short-change simply the desire to make something new too.  I think that's important.  You need cycles (which you might call reigns) to make it all work.  Nothing gets moved forward if you use one figure for the next 10 years without new versions bringing in new ideas and content.

The face is very, very important.

V4 came out with a set of good head morphs.

I actually think, over time, that V3's were better because someone made a set of "Head Sculpting Morphs" (for M3 as well) that allowed very detailed and nonsymmetrical fine turning. But if tons of people haven't bought these morph packs, vendors won't use them in their characters. I'm sure customers are turned off by products with too long a list of requirements.

And that's the thing. There are a lot of character vendors who are extremely talented with texture making. They make beautiful skins. But their characters are often dial-spun. If you don't provide the dials for these folks, they won't make characters for you. I buy their products for the skins, and usually dial my own faces (and bodies) -- or use someone else's custom face. But I expect, when they're making a character that these vendors have a specific look in mind, and your figure better be able to accomodate their imaginations. And you had better do it with a single (or at most, two) morph packs that all of their customers will already own.

The same, I guess, must go for body morphs and clothing. If you've got five body morph packs on the market, how is the vendor going to know which one the most customers have bought? How will they guess which morphs to support?

Over time, these questions may be answered, but at first, you really should start with a couple of very comprehensive morph packs that you know everyone is going to buy, and which provide enough versatility to create a lot of different looks.

People won't use most of the dials. That's clear from looking at the MP. There's a certain "look" that seems most popular. But the dials for other things need to be there for that large minority of people that do need them.

You can't rely on vendor support just from people with Z-brush. You can't expect customers to do the work. If you want a figure to become wildly popular, it has to be very easy to customize. And it needs to be so right on the first day of release.

"If you want a figure to become wildly popular, it has to be very easy to customize."

Well said.  I think a figure with at least 1500 morphs would fit the billet.

If folks aren't willing to customize the head by some means (supplied morphs, morph brush, whatever), then yeah, you're left with the "Boba Fett Clone Army".  Twiddling a dial isn't work but okay :)

Besides using poses as starting points and loading morphs and turning dials, I'm not sure what else a figure could magically be expected to do.  That just seems to be putting one's self in a position of just being difficult.  You'll never have a head/body that everyone likes even if you scanned a real person (and especially if you scanned a real person) ;)

Quote - "If you want a figure to become wildly popular, it has to be very easy to customize."

Well said.  I think a figure with at least 1500 morphs would fit the billet.

Or, more seriously, at least as many as V4 had available in her morphs++. ;)

What I've learned the past years, that real beauty isn't in perfection: Beautiful women can have ugly noses,ears, big chins, skinny bodies ugly legs. It's the whole picture that makes them beautiful. It is the perfection of the models offered by merchants that annoys me.

Real beauty is hard to grasp and perhaps very personal. I like women with some meat on their bones and I think women between their 40 and 60 (sometimes even 70) are the most beautiful women in the world, which is not really the average standard, but young women (between 18 and 30) have something volatile and careless (which they should have, by the way) and women between 30 and 40 are to busy with raising their children to take care of their appearance. But I'm really off topic now.

Anyhow any posermodel that has the ability to grasp that kind of beauty appeals me, and V4 comes very close to that.

"Or, more seriously, at least as many as V4 had available in her morphs++. ;)"

I stand corrected and thank you.  And the more i think about morphs the more the immortal Bard's words remind me...

“What a piece of work is a man! How noble in reason! how infinite in faculty! in form, in moving, how express and admirable! in action how like an angel! in apprehension how like a god! the beauty of the world! the paragon of animals! And yet, to me, what is this quintessence of dust?”
― William Shakespeare, *Hamlet    *

Quote - I stand corrected and thank you.  And the more i think about morphs the more the immortal Bard's words remind me...

“What a piece of work is a man! How noble in reason! how infinite in faculty! in form, in moving, how express and admirable! in action how like an angel! in apprehension how like a god! the beauty of the world! the paragon of animals! And yet, to me, what is this quintessence of dust?”
― William Shakespeare, *Hamlet    *

I wasn't correcting you. I was simply replying to your rhetorical use of hyperbole. If I were correcting you, I'd have mentioned that a 'billet' is most commonly a civilian residence where soldiers are temporarily lodged, and that what you meant to say is 'fit the bill'. That'd be a correction.  :D But I rarely correct people -- because they've usually just made a typo or suffered from autocorrectionitis -- plus it's not very nice to offer unwanted editorial advice, unless Shakespeare has been quoted. :)

And a few seconds later in that speech, Rosencrantz smirks when Hamlet says, 'Man delights not me.'  :biggrin:

Edit: And just in case it isn't clear (because it's hard to know how your words will be received over the ether) -- I'm joking. :D

For me, V4/M4 have the most flexible human morphs of any figure available (and yes, I include Genesis and Genesis 2 in that--their basic morphs leave a lot to be desired in terms of human diversity). That, combined with the huge number of high quality characters and clothing available to them (particularly V4), and no figure will trump them in my library until they can outdo them on one of those two points--the first more importantly than the second, as demonstrated by the fact that I still don't use either version of Genesis. Anastasia lacks both morphs and content. Dawn is a step in the right direction but she's still a long way from competing with V4.

Quote - For me, V4/M4 have the most flexible human morphs of any figure available (and yes, I include Genesis and Genesis 2 in that--their basic morphs leave a lot to be desired in terms of human diversity). That, combined with the huge number of high quality characters and clothing available to them (particularly V4), and no figure will trump them in my library until they can outdo them on one of those two points--the first more importantly than the second, as demonstrated by the fact that I still don't use either version of Genesis. Anastasia lacks both morphs and content. Dawn is a step in the right direction but she's still a long way from competing with V4.

Anastasia IS a morph. Alyson2 may not be the prettiest girl at the party but one thing you can't say about her is that she doesn't have any morphs. Girlfriend is easily the most morphable figure that Poser has ever put out.  Roxie would be a ten times better figure if she had just half the morphs that Alyson2 has.

I've had V4 since day one. Over the years I've collected an incredible amount of content, add to that now most clothing for V4 also works with S4,A4, and G4 what's my incentive to jump ship?

I've also amassed 3rd party morphs, body fixes, etc. that have fixed the original shortcomings of V4. 

I remember using Victoria, V2, V3 (which I still like), and working with Posette as well. The Gen4 group was so above what had been before it basically blew everything else out of the water.

Why should I start all over with another model when I have one that does everything I need and does it better than something new?

Some of my most used morphs have come from sites other than DAZ. I give kuddos to content creators that have worked so hard to give us what we wanted. A way to make V4 almost timeless. Just my two cents. :)

Quote - I've had V4 since day one. Over the years I've collected an incredible amount of content, add to that now most clothing for V4 also works with S4,A4, and G4 what's my incentive to jump ship?

I've also amassed 3rd party morphs, body fixes, etc. that have fixed the original shortcomings of V4. 

I remember using Victoria, V2, V3 (which I still like), and working with Posette as well. The Gen4 group was so above what had been before it basically blew everything else out of the water.

Why should I start all over with another model when I have one that does everything I need and does it better than something new?

Some of my most used morphs have come from sites other than DAZ. I give kuddos to content creators that have worked so hard to give us what we wanted. A way to make V4 almost timeless. Just my two cents. :)

That is the complete opposite opinion of mine. I'd like to see new figures with new Poser-tools used. Be as up to date as you can, Don't be stuck on the past, march foreward. Poser is defniatly the leader of this market, so IMO it should also be the leader in technologie. Compete with Autodesk, but have a variety of content available. That is what "Pro" in "PoserPro" should be. Some might still be happy with Poser7, why not -V4 works fine there. But I praised the gods of 3d, when a new age of Poser has finally come by introducing a new UI, weight maps , morph brush, dependecy editor and several other small features ,i don't want to be without.

As I allways say and lot's of others disagree: Give a Poser11 to the average "pose and render V4 users", and give a real PoserPro2016 with Pro tools to users who like to benefit from advanced creation tools and modern rigging technology.

"I wasn't correcting you. I was simply replying to your rhetorical use of hyperbole. If I were correcting you, I'd have mentioned that a 'billet' is most commonly a civilian residence where soldiers are temporarily lodged, and that what you meant to say is 'fit the bill'. That'd be a correction.  :D But I rarely correct people -- because they've usually just made a typo or suffered from autocorrectionitis -- plus it's not very nice to offer unwanted editorial advice, unless Shakespeare has been quoted. :)

And a few seconds later in that speech, Rosencrantz smirks when Hamlet says, 'Man delights not me.'  

Edit: And just in case it isn't clear (because it's hard to know how your words will be received over the ether) -- I'm joking. :D"

I stand corrected that you were not correcting me about the morph statement only that you wer correting my grammar am i correct?:D 

You know,  while i"ve been standing here,  i've been thinking on figure creation.  Correct me if i'm wrong,  but if two or more people were to create a figure would the start be studying and observing groups of people and/or concentrating on individuals alone. 

We all know "NVIATWAS". And now we have the "V4PIAEDSOAMITF".

Victoria4-Pixi-in-an-elfen-dress-sitting-on-a-mushroom-in-the-Forrest. XD

I like Poser and the way it has progressed and I love new technology but not for technologys sake.  I use Poser Pro 2014 despite the fact that I don't rig or create figures because it still provides me with benefits over Poser 10.  For me new tech is the same as a new figure in that, unless it allows me to do something I can't already do, there seems little point.  As the thread is about the popularity of V4 what new tech is going to expand or improve on V4s use?

Technology like the morph brush and the ability to copy morphs from figure to clothing is a tremendous help for all figures - including V4. You can create custom morphs in the figures and the user can fit ir with the morphbrush or transform this morph firectly to all types of clothing.

But the problem is of course that these new features are P10 and PP2014 (copy morphs) only. So the content creators are faced with the same problem as with supporting a new figure with new technology - compatibility with older versions of Poser. 

To me it is about realistic joints, for example. Without the need to put tons of JCMs inside that still won't make my figure perfect. I don't want anybody seeing my renders and saying:" oh hell , it's Poser again."

Some JCMs on V4 aren't just enough. I don't want less, than any joint , any muscle, any tendon posed realistic and I am hoping, that we will have that technologie in Poser some day. Beeing stuck and just happy with what we got, won't help.

Quote - I stand corrected that you were not correcting me about the morph statement only that you wer correting my grammar am i correct?:D

You got me there! :D

Quote - To me it is about realistic joints, for example. Without the need to put tons of JCMs inside that still won't make my figure perfect. I don't want anybody seeing my renders and saying:" oh hell , it's Poser again." Some JCMs on V4 aren't just enough. I don't want less, than any joint , any muscle, any tendon posed realistic and I am hoping, that we will have that technologie in Poser some day. Beeing stuck and just happy with what we got, won't help.

I paint over many of my renders in an attempt to eliminate that give-away Poser look, but it would be nice if the figures weren't so obvious. Most of the time, though, I don't think it's anatomical incorrectness so much as a very characteristic stiffness in posing. You can recognize it a mile off.

I do mostly illustrations, so strict realism isn't a criteria for me. However, I think it's a worthy goal to strive for. The day we can do renders that manage to scale the uncanny valley to be completely indistinguishable from photos is the day we can say we've finally arrived.

you could always rig vicky in autodesk ,blender or any app.
zBrush has transpose so no rigging required.

aerysoul and a few other had exstream morphs that change vicky so much she didn't have the standard head to toe vicky ratio.

but her ratio gives her away everytime.

We have a fitting room now and some tools here can also even transfer texture maps. So why stick with V4? ;) <grin, tounge in cheeck, blink>

It cannot really been because of the V4-shapes. Most of them are just "V4morph++" remote-dialers. I would only buy those, if I really liked the textures. Only a few vendors really offer custom morphs.

zbrush, yeah about to save money for it. just a little bit afraid of the step learning curve and the resulting frustration. Blender is free, but without a rhyme or reason of the UI to me. Autodesk, I am not handsome enough, to earn some quick money,in order to affort it. ;)

Quote - To me it is about realistic joints, for example. Without the need to put tons of JCMs inside that still won't make my figure perfect. I don't want anybody seeing my renders and saying:" oh hell , it's Poser again."
Some JCMs on V4 aren't just enough. I don't want less, than any joint , any muscle, any tendon posed realistic and I am hoping, that we will have that technologie in Poser some day. Beeing stuck and just happy with what we got, won't help.

We have the ability to create that figure in Poser now. Have had for a while. The problem with it is that most content creators would likely find it too complicated to build content for, because figures like that usually require dynamic clothing to complete the effect and since the majority of users aren't interested in dynamics, conforming clothing can be very difficult to make function properly without looking like it's twisted around the figure cause he slept in his clothes.

The only feasible way that I can think of is to create it as an add-on, so that content creators aren't forced into creating their conformers to function fully with it, but then that would mean that most conformers wouldn't function with the add-on. The conformers would need to be built in a way that either ignored most of the tendon and joint morphs but still moved properly without distorting the clothing or allowing poke-thru, or counteracted the tendon morphs so that the conformer isn't affected by it the same way that the figure mesh is affected. Either way it's not a simple figure to create, but it is possible. The problem is likely going to be the end user/conent creator not wanting to deal with it due to the complexity, but still wanting something that produces the same results. That's where I see the disconnect between what people want in the next generation poser figure, and what new techniques they're willing to learn in order to accomplish it. The more advanced the figure is, the more work it's going to require to make content for it. Really cant have it both ways.

~Shane

Quote - Technology like the morph brush and the ability to copy morphs from figure to clothing is a tremendous help for all figures - including V4. You can create custom morphs in the figures and the user can fit ir with the morphbrush or transform this morph firectly to all types of clothing.

But the problem is of course that these new features are P10 and PP2014 (copy morphs) only. So the content creators are faced with the same problem as with supporting a new figure with new technology - compatibility with older versions of Poser. 

Dimension3D has a free Copy Morphs script on his site that works in Poser 5+ that could be used.

Quote - > Quote - For me, V4/M4 have the most flexible human morphs of any figure available (and yes, I include Genesis and Genesis 2 in that--their basic morphs leave a lot to be desired in terms of human diversity). That, combined with the huge number of high quality characters and clothing available to them (particularly V4), and no figure will trump them in my library until they can outdo them on one of those two points--the first more importantly than the second, as demonstrated by the fact that I still don't use either version of Genesis. Anastasia lacks both morphs and content. Dawn is a step in the right direction but she's still a long way from competing with V4.

Anastasia IS a morph. Alyson2 may not be the prettiest girl at the party but one thing you can't say about her is that she doesn't have any morphs. Girlfriend is easily the most morphable figure that Poser has ever put out.  Roxie would be a ten times better figure if she had just half the morphs that Alyson2 has.

Meh, I could never make Anastasia look like anything but Anastasia, and Alyson's morphs were pretty lacking too, even compared to V4 with just M++.  

You can design things in a way that eases complexity in content creation.  First, you can make things "optional" and allow them to be turned on or off.  Scaling can replace some of the burden of replicating masses of body morphs in clothes.  It's possible to build a rig that uses embedded magnets that could be conformed and then magnetized to a figure and it's clothes for breast and butt movement (I recall having a product that does this).

It just takes some forethought, looking beyond the core figure and some clever work that can be applied optionally (or automatically) to help users and designers.

I don't feel weights are any trickier to mess with than spheres, they are just "different".  You learn to resolve different issues, like smoothing out the weights in areas that connect or smoothing things as joints are bent, which can of course be done in real time with the weight tools.  In fact, in some ways weights are easier.  Comparing rigging a glove with fingers with spheres to a weighted glove.  No contest which one is full of PAIN.  Try to get spherical zones into something's crotch... NUFF said.

And in Poser you can have both worlds of rigging on one figure.  If you create a hair and you get better results with spherical zones or you want to use a mix of spheres and weights, you can.  And it will still conform to a weighted figure.  In Poser, conforming has to do with center points and end points, so as long as those line up, you can do interesting things.

BTW, PP 2012 also has Copy Morphs From.  However, in my opinion, copy morphs from is very hit or miss and you'll have to clean up all the results.  You'd be better off trying to set up magnets to do it instead and magnets can be re-used.  In P10+, you could even use weighted magnet zones for precise changes but they are less recyclable.

Quote - BTW, PP 2012 also has Copy Morphs From.  However, in my opinion, copy morphs from is very hit or miss and you'll have to clean up all the results.  You'd be better off trying to set up magnets to do it instead and magnets can be re-used.  In P10+, you could even use weighted magnet zones for precise changes but they are less recyclable.

Copy morphs From has defintely been improved in PP2014. In most cases it works fine without any clean up (speaking as an end user). The only thing where it fails is in scaling morphs but the apply scaling property usually fixes that

There is one caveat however - if you copy morphs to autoconforming clothing, you may have to dial in the morphs manually