Attached Link: Silo ver 2.3

I've looked several times a Blender and I'm just not interested in learning it. It's way too clunky even with the new interface. Perhaps if they pulled out the modelling tools from Blender and offered it alone as I'm not interested in Blenders annimation or rendering capabilities.

And Nvil IMHO has one of the worst ui out there with it's exploding windows and ballons. Yes I know the ui is customizable...BUT I'm just not interested in learning how to customize a modeling app when  one of the features I desire is a simple ui right out of the box and Hex seems to feel the bill...

Thanks for posting. Good to hear some updates from the Silo....   Always been wondering when they'll launch their missiles for the final attack on the competition ;-)

Now available for Linux! I guess the 3D modelling world know something the business world doesn't. I do have a licence - bought this ages ago, the current version I have being 2.2, and it looks like my licence should be honoured.

Well done, NeverCenter... kudos to a good product! (And this, from a devout Blender fan... can never have too many tools, they can complement each other).

Quote - Now available for Linux!

I noticed that too. Totally awesome.

-Philip

thebest3d.com - beyond digital painting

This brings up a very interesting topic I've been wanting to explore.

Has anything been added to the tools in Silo with this update?  Any new workflow enhancements or features?  Any bug fixes or stability improvements?  At this point, I have to think there's a very limited market for a bare bones, dedicated modelling software that is intended to perform just one type of production module, and nothing else.  You would think in the absence of such a software, many upstart companies would have stepped up to the plate and put out something to take over this niche, while Nevercenter slept for years on v2, but that didn't happen.

Seems Nevercenter and Daz, Inc. could just sit on their current software indefinitely, and still face no real challengers to their specialized markets, because the user base isn't growing, it's either stagnant or unchanged.  Instead of an update of substance, it's one of monitary gain, just capitolizing on a very narrow user base by opening it up to Linux users, and giving people a reason to buy into it again.  I really thought Nvil would have smashed this tiny market wide open by now, but a lot of people seem to dislike the appearance of the UI so much, that it hasn't really taken off.  I could understand that, but I disagree with it in principle.

I understand why Hexagon would appeal visually to a beginner, but in spite of the intuitive UI, Hexagon quickly loses out to it's competitors with a counterproductive workflow, which constantly reminds you to validate after using a tool, as if you, the user, are the one prone to instability.  While it does have customizable hotkeys, the Icon-driven UI is locked in a perpetual novice state.  I like the idea of a dynamic geometry, but it falls flat in Hexagon, as many essencial modelling tools that would make a procedural model useful, are not even present in the software.  The selection tools for making complex poly, edge, or vertex selections, are very limited.  Good luck if you need to make a dot or skip loop selection of every other, or every third, vertex in an edge loop with 20+faces.

There seems to have been a serious decline in the interest of standalone modelling apps, and there may be more to it than the stalled development they have seen at the hands of their developers.  In fact, there may be a reason why development has stalled.  It might have a lot to do with how fast people progress their skills, and the need or wish to move on to bigger and better things, without re-learning how to walk again.  Today's younger users look to invest their time and effort in a software with synergistic tools, something to seamlessly move between different tasks, rather than learning a dedicated specialty software that isn't optimized to work together with other apps fluidly, and use old tech to transfer meshes back and forth.  Today's younger users would rather just switch tabs, or click a button, to jump from modelling to texturing, or rigging to animation.  This is the GO-Z and APPlink workflow generation.  A generation who like it all in one, or have it at least appear as such.

These dedicated apps are fine for entry-level modelling, or even for people who only ever intend to do modelling, and nothing else, in the CG industry.  In a studio, it's very common to be specialized in one given task, but in a studio there's also a need for modularity, and tools that can be programmed to do more than what they were designed to do.  Anyone who's ever worked on a really big, time-sensitive production knows the value of a tech director, and working with software which allows you to write scripts that bring new functions to the software, or handle mundane or repetitive tasks.  If the modellers find themselves needing a new primitive object, it's beneficial to have the ability to write a plugin that can bring this to you.

So is there really any room in the industry for these dedicated modellers?  Competition sparks growth and innovation.  So far, in the world of the dedicated modelling software, we aren't seeing much growth or innovation, except possibly Nvil. However, Nvil doesn't seem to resonate.  Some people thought Blender would cause the demise of some big name 3D applications, but in fact, it seems to have had no affect on the hold that companies like AD have on the industry, and it may have actually fueled the innovation of tools in companies like The Foundry and Maxon.  Ironically, Blender may be the very reason smaller companies of dedicated modelling apps have been grinding to a halt, and losing consumers. Food for thought.

The market for standalone modelling apps in today's industry is about the same as the market for standalone rendering apps.  Most people prefer to render where they model or animate (IF they model or animate), just as most people prefer to model where they unwrap, or rig (IF they unwrap or rig).  Seems like the majority would prefer an integrated solution if they are skilled at more than one thing, but if the standalone product is awesome, then there will be an interest in using it.  So if it's a lack of funding that has slowed the development of the software, then these companies only have themselves to blame.

The minute you start to ignore your user base, or slow down the progress of your product, the faster people will start diverting their ttention to the next best thing.   You can't go years without updating your software, if you really expect to stay in the game.  That ship has sailed.

I personally see this update as a bad sign for true future development.  After nearly 5 years of silence, and forum censorship, they finally release a "build", but all they add is Linux support, to bring in some more cash avenues?  It seems like the intention here was secure continued income, in the event their software stops working on future WIN/OS releases.  Does it even have 64 bit support yet?  I really hope users don't have to wait as long for the next REAL update, with some improved tools, added functionality, and definitely more stability. Silo is barely on the radar, and fading fast.

Adding Linux support is not as trivial as one would think at first blush. Some of the largest 3D graphics "houses" depend on Linux for reliability and speed. What I'm reading between the lines is that Nevercenter is targeting not so much the odd Linux Desktop user (like me) but those in the industry who will now be able to add Silo to their arsenal of 3D development tools.

Smart move, Nevercenter.

Much of the really serious graphics software (notable exception: Photoshop) has a Linux flavour. The writing is on the wall. Personally, I think a Linux version of Poser Pro would be incredible: it's the only reason I still keep Win7 on my desktop (dual-boot, as opposed to running Windows in a VM, which I do on my laptops).

Quote - Adding Linux support is not as trivial as one would think at first blush. Some of the largest 3D graphics "houses" depend on Linux for reliability and speed. What I'm reading between the lines is that Nevercenter is targeting not so much the odd Linux Desktop user (like me) but those in the industry who will now be able to add Silo to their arsenal of 3D development tools. Smart move, Nevercenter.

Much of the really serious graphics software (notable exception: Photoshop) has a Linux flavour. The writing is on the wall. Personally, I think a Linux version of Poser Pro would be incredible: it's the only reason I still keep Win7 on my desktop (dual-boot, as opposed to running Windows in a VM, which I do on my laptops).

I'm sorry, but I know that's not actually factual.  There are very few studios which openly advertise Silo in their pipelines.  Linux is being used, but not as widely as you think.  Most CG companies are running Linux mostly in their render farms, but not their modelling pipelines.  I've actually only worked at one studio that had their workstations running Linux, and they were using a version of Cinema4D which is not commercially available, except to big studios on special order.

In fact, only a VERY small handful of elite studios (by that, I mean probably less than 5) are exclusively using Linux-only workstations, and that is with proprietary software.  Maya and 3dsmax do not run natively on Linux, at least not the commercially available products.  Actually, 3dsmax will ONLY run on Windows.  There have been articles citing that almost 80% of the world's best CG studios are using Autodesk products for modelling, animation, or post production.

http://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/maya/troubleshooting/caas/sfdcarticles/sfdcarticles/Operating-system-compatibility-for-Autodesk-Maya.html

So if this was a "power move" by Nevercenter to get Silo into the top 5 elite CG studios in the world, and replace some of the best modelling tools available in Maya and 3dsmax, then they are going to be out of business sooner than not.  The modelling tools in those softwares have a lot more features, and are open to scriptability and additional programming as well.  I know some people like Silo better, but I doubt it will replace those guys in most of the studios.  Especially when it's been known to be far less stable.

I understand most people think Linux is being used in most studio pipelines, but most studios are using the following software, under commercially available licensing.  If you notice, only the lesser used 3D software is natively supporting Linux.  The major players do not  This doesn't mean they can't be run virtually, but there's no native versions..

Maya - No native linux support.

3dsmax - No native linux or mac support.

Cinema4D - No native linux support, but I know they have a highly customized, elite version available for only the largest studios.  90% of studios would not be using this in their pipelines, and it's not available for commercial use.

Softimage XSI - YES, but this software is being discontinued after 2015, and will no longer be updated by Autodesk.

Lightwave3D - Looks like only Win and Mac native support, although I have seen it bing run on Linux, virtually.  Lightwave3D System Requirements.

MODO - Yes.  One of the few big guns that openly supports Linux OS natively.

Houdini - YES.  This one is being used by the largest CGI/FX houses on dedicated Linux workstations.

I'm sure there's many more 3D software out there that run natively on Linux, but those apps above are the ones that every major and medium size studio are running on their workstations.  Mind you, I'm not referring to render farms.

Quote - Maya - No native linux support.

Maya does support Linux natively.  Look here.  We've recently moved our animation and rigging departments to Maya seats, on Linux - Fedora.  There are no plans to do this with our modeling and texturing seats.

ILM and Dreamworks are two of the most noteable studios employing literally hundreds of Linux workstations, and renderfarms, with deep proprietary applications, as well as commercially available products.  The very best proprietary software is traditionally built on top of open-source software.  This, however, shouldn't be considered the industry standard.  Not every studio in the industry utilize proprietary software, and commercially-available packages do have a long, prolific lineage in the motion picture FX industry.

I don't have hard numbers, but if I were to speculate, based on the information I have seen, I would say the majority of studios are still using Windows or Mac for the largest number of seats. 

Autodesk once released information suggesting 3dsmax was the 3D software package with the largest registered user base of the "big 3".  This was about 7 or 8 years ago, but I imagine it is still the case today, and as previously mentioned, it is only available for Windows. I have seen 3dsmax hosted in Wine and Ubuntu, but not in a production environment.  This would seem to indicate that there are a great deal of professional studios, particularly in the gaming and architectural CG communities,  running on Windows-based seats.

Ok, I was looking at the download page for the product.  The only options there are Windows and Mac.  There was no Linux download option.  Why?

I do not work with Autodesk products anymore, mate.  Thanks in large part to c4dfreelancers.com, I've been keeping true to my favored work app.

I appreciate the info, Daniel, and forgive me for asking, but why would you move a rigging pipeline to Linux if you don't have plans to bring the modelling guys along with it?  I've never been part of a system where modelling and rigging weren't in the same production flow.  Granted, it's been a while since I was last part of any vfx pipelines.  I've been modelling for a UK based visualization studio for the past 4 months, and the pipeline for this kind of work is a little different.  I recall the last broadcast animation studio I worked with kept the modelling, texturing, and rigging teams on the same custom HPC/WS rigs (under Windows), because the way things needed to move along, they had to be.  Similar solution, I believe,  for the one before that.  I'm not knocking anyone's system, just curious why they got split.

Quote -  I have seen 3dsmax hosted in Wine and Ubuntu, but not in a production environment...

Given my experience with Poser running in both a VM and in WINE, I would have to conclude that at this point (at this stage of WINE and virtual machine's limitations), any software that requires direct access to the graphics subsystem will need to run in their native OS running on bare metal. I'm guessing what holds true for Poser would hold true for 3DSMax.

Still, good to see that Linux versions are coming along for more and more software. Competition is healthy and good for consumers. 

I run Blender in both Windows (rarely now) and Linux: on the same system, the same programme behaves quite differently in Linux vs Windows. Render times in Cycles is significantly different. Interesting (and gratifying) to see free software behaving so well. Very curious to see how the Linux version of Silo will behave. I'm firing up Fugazi's tutorials on creating dynamic cloth: he uses Silo in those examples! So, YAY! :biggrin:

ETA: just installed this - what's really impressive is that my 2.2 licence is valid! The install was clean and quick, and on this little laptop with its NVidia 230 (very early CUDA) graphics card, Silo runs beautifully. I am going to enjoy this a LOT.

So has Any Silo3D users upgrade to this version?

Quote - So has Any Silo3D users upgrade to this version?

I have, to the Linux version, in order to do the Fugazi modelling tutorials. I still prefer Blender for most stuff, though... just easier to use, well, for me it is, anyway.

Got it.  I loaded it up and was working through a tut at DT and it white screened on me.

The teacher did say that Silo doesn't use resources well and it is not Mudbox or ZB.

I tried again with resource monitors.  Lots of page faults prior to crash.

Have two E5 2630 CPU's, win 7 ultimate, 64gram, GTX 780.  No reason for any app to run out of resources.

I noticed that silo used about 1/4 of the cpu capability during modeling and very little ram while it was building page faults.

From what I can tell, this app is robust when it comes to basic tools and custom interface.  Not quite there yet for a pro modeling app, but does combine some scultping and poly tools in ways that many pro apps don't.  If they fix the machine language, this app might do very well.

Eric

Quote - Ok, I was looking at the download page for the product.  The only options there are Windows and Mac.  There was no Linux download option.  Why?

I do not work with Autodesk products anymore, mate.  Thanks in large part to c4dfreelancers.com, I've been keeping true to my favored work app.

I appreciate the info, Daniel, and forgive me for asking, but why would you move a rigging pipeline to Linux if you don't have plans to bring the modelling guys along with it?  I've never been part of a system where modelling and rigging weren't in the same production flow.  Granted, it's been a while since I was last part of any vfx pipelines.  I've been modelling for a UK based visualization studio for the past 4 months, and the pipeline for this kind of work is a little different.  I recall the last broadcast animation studio I worked with kept the modelling, texturing, and rigging teams on the same custom HPC/WS rigs (under Windows), because the way things needed to move along, they had to be.  Similar solution, I believe,  for the one before that.  I'm not knocking anyone's system, just curious why they got split.

 

Sinnersaint,

The modeling, production planning, texture mapping, and matte painting departments are now part of the Pre-Production workgroup.  Rigging has been reallocated to work more closely with the Animation dept., and others, as part of the Shot Production workgroup.  Most of the modeling dept. has decided to continue working with 3dsmax, but Rigging and Animation is now being done entirely with Autodesk Maya.   All of these departments work closely together, of course.  Asset tracking and data synergy between departments is typically done through FBX and OBJ standards, if not application-native file formats, so there's no need for departmental workstations to function on any singular OS.  Cross-platform asset sharing has never been an issue of concern.

I went from 2.2 to 2.3.  Don't notice any difference.  Digital Tutors has a few training series that combine Maya and Silo. 

One of the things I learned at DT is that Silo cannot handle heavy work.  Isolate your mesh, sculpt on small parts, keep it light.  It is not zb or mudbox.  etc.

Yeah, well, I have a dual E5-2630 machine, win 7 ultimate, 64g ram, ssd drives, gtx780.  I have all the resources that any app can need.  And yes, I got silo to whitescreen pretty fast while sculpting. 

So folks seem to know at DT and here at home that Silo has resource usage issues.  I noticed high page faults just prior to the crashes. 

They gotta fix that.  I can load up poser to where it has slammed all 24 cores to the max and still go play with other software while it is rendering. 

And yes, XSI is pretty awesome, way ahead of its time.  Shame on AD for killing it.  I know they want to take the code to make Maya better.  AD has had 6 years of owning XSI to learn it.  I'll be all ears if they have it understood now and can really use it to enhance Maya.