the one closer to the camera is the improved neck. morphs don't get destroyed, the core geometry needs no modification in the newer posers

in my opinion, the forward bend is improved but the backward one is not (that much).

But in the end, mammals have 7 neckbones, so...

Thansk for the effort anyway.

That's a good idea. I always wondered, how the V4 fig. would be (as in bend, plausible posing ... ) if there'd be the one or other bone more in the neck and in the torso area in general. I always thought that the two abdomen and chest bones were a bit to few. But then again, knowing nothing about rigging, topology etc at all, I never knew if it would be even necessary, to add more bone to this fig. .. and since lacking these skills, I could never try it myself =)

they look good IMVHO.  maybe you could also try render subdiv.

I do not know what Poser version you are using but W-Map painting is often used with good results for an issue like this.

Well, Dawn has weight maps and still uses two neck bones. I guess they wouldn't have rigged her in that way without a reason.

If you see the images above I clearly see a reason to have more than just one neck bone.

Tja, the more I look at Dawn's mesh, the more I am convinced it was build around 2003-2005.

I don't think that this depends on the mesh. When people move their head , the movement doesn't use just one or two pivot points. Being able to "roll" the neck is better IMHO, and needs more than just one bone.

Dawn's rig with a pelvis actor and two chests bones isn't something I've seeen around 2003-2005. I talk the rig here, not the topology.

I'd like to package it but I do not know yet how.

How do cloth merchants do that with the bones and spheres, is there any template of DAZ that may be redistributed? As cloth must follow the rig of the original figure I assume it uses the same rig (with slight adjustions).

I want to try to make sort of a "dummy" cloth without geometry that stores the multi bone setup for the entire figure (reusing the original rig for the unmodified parts). Then one could use Figure->CopyJointParams  to take over the new rig to an existing V4, which just needs the additional bones, but I think that is manageable somehow, either with Python or some other hack.

What is the way cloth merchants do to take over the DAZ bones into their figures without copyright violation?

I think I would distibute a changed cr2, rte-encoded so that only V4 users can use it. I'm not the copyright guy here, but IMHO that would be suitable.

Thats difficult because the .cr2 of the V4 is generated, depending on morph addon packages there are many different .cr2's for her (with different channels etc).

I think distribution as cloth would be neat, because it reuse of a standardized process. All is needed is a local magic trick to copy the rig onto an existing v4 instance.

Real neck anatomy is a little more complicated than people are thinking.

The greatest range of motion of the neck is due to the C1 and C2 vertebrae (the atlas and the axis), which are significantly different from other vertebrae. The Atlanto-occipital joint--where the spine meets the skull--is actually the place responsible for the nodding motion of the head, and some side-to-side. The joint between the atlas and axis (C1 and C2) is responsible for most of the twisting motion of the head (thus the reason the C2 is named "axis"). Because the atlas and axis are so small, in a 3D model you can consider them a single joint for the purposes of movement.

The rest of the cervical vertebrae (the neck, in other words) has a much more limited range of motion. If you somehow froze the C1 and C2 in position and just moved the head and neck through the range of motion possible allowed by the other bones, you'd see that the neck without those two specialized joints at the top isn't that flexible. In other words, it would look a lot more like the "before" model in the above images than in the one with the two added bones.

The result of this is that the rigging currently present in most figures, like the V4 shown above, is anatomically correct. The neck moves stiffly as a unit, and most of the head movement is at the joint between head and neck. Adding (rigging) bones to the neck makes it less natural, not more, unless you severely restrict their range of motion to only a few degrees.

Yeah I have to agree with Keith (that's my middle name!). Unless you're expecting the neck to do all the work I don't think this would be the way to go. In most cases looking up involves both the head and the neck. Actually, as I try while I type I find it almost impossible to move just my neck back without moving my head.  That said, if the goal was to remove the sharp crease in the original rigging's backward motion, then I can understand . Just be sure to do as suggested and set realistic limits on the motion.

As for distribution, I don't see how you could do it. Unlike clothing, you'd have to also distribute the original mesh wouldn't you?

hehe. maybe you are right, i have not thought about that. i assumed the vertebrae bend all a bit, and when i tried to pose the neck once it looked odd from my point of view, i think one bone is not enough. the results that i get with that do not feel natural. http://www.jameda.de/krankheiten-lexikon/bilder/big/559900.jpg here, like this. i think a sequence of vertebrae bones would be the easiest way from a technical point of view. i am not a biology expert ;) despite i was trying to learn some anatomy, and that neck adventure helped me finally find out how posers rigging tools work ;)

Hello all,

Because the mesh topology is not changed, I think it is possible to create a morph to simulate the final effect of having two bones. But this can be complex to made because of the changes in other parts of the model (head and trunk).

Allstereo

Quote - hehe. maybe you are right, i have not thought about that. i assumed the vertebrae bend all a bit, and when i tried to pose the neck once it looked odd from my point of view, i think one bone is not enough. the results that i get with that do not feel natural. http://www.jameda.de/krankheiten-lexikon/bilder/big/559900.jpg here, like this. i think a sequence of vertebrae bones would be the easiest way from a technical point of view. i am not a biology expert ;) despite i was trying to learn some anatomy, and that neck adventure helped me finally find out how posers rigging tools work ;)

Well learning is always a good reason to do most things. That said, I would think changing the origin of the neck bone would probably have a similar effect as adding the extra one. I could be wrong though, I don't know her rig and I'm not as good at rigging as Darrell (my former co-worker).  That said, it's always worth experimenting on new rigging ideas. :-)

Hello all,

After a brief search on the net, I not sure that Keith is right about the lack of motion between vertebra in the neck. Moreover, the motion occur in all intervertebral level, so the neck described an arc about the trunk part. Please check the following paper about cervical motion:

 http://www.rehab.research.va.gov/jour/03/40/6/Gavin.html

Allstereo

Haha, interesting find, for sure.

Quote - I'd like to package it but I do not know yet how.

How do cloth merchants do that with the bones and spheres, is there any template of DAZ that may be redistributed? As cloth must follow the rig of the original figure I assume it uses the same rig (with slight adjustions).

I want to try to make sort of a "dummy" cloth without geometry that stores the multi bone setup for the entire figure (reusing the original rig for the unmodified parts). Then one could use Figure->CopyJointParams  to take over the new rig to an existing V4, which just needs the additional bones, but I think that is manageable somehow, either with Python or some other hack.

It's been a long time, so I'm a bit rusty with it (WandW and shvrdavid seem to have a better user-level understanding of the script, at this point), but this is basically what we designed the Poser Place Outfitter to do.  It adds helper bones and transfers weights, using a trimmed-down cr2 as the donor.

If you want to try to make an Outfitter distribution for your rigging, PM me and I'll see if I can explain how to do it.

You want to use the Applicator script on a character to insert bones, Outfitter transfers it to the clothes.

Look at how the files are set up to convert V4 to V4~WM, it is not that hard to set up. Basically all you want is the added bone/dependency information. Then set up Applicator to do the transfer without taking taking JCM's, magnets, etc out of V4. You will need a settings text file for it as well. Just copy the V4~WM one and remove the items from the file that need to be removed. (The naming structure has to remain, just remove things added to those) If you have OBJ's attached to the bones so you can select them, they will need to be included in the package. You shouldn't need them if it is all set up as dependencies. But it is nice to have a way of selecting them in the pose window.

As far as conforming hair is concerned, that has to have a different approach and usually you don't have to add anything to it. If the joint centers are changed in V4's original neck centers, you should make a pose file to just change the centers in conforming hair, hats, etc.

Quote - You want to use the Applicator script on a character to insert bones, Outfitter transfers it to the clothes.

Yes, the Applicator!  :laugh:  Cage has slept like a zillion times since then.  :lol:  He forgets.

Setting up the donor files for the Applicator is pretty easy.  They're just portions trimmed from the original .cr2 containing the new bones.