https://www.yurdigital.com/catalog/content-developers/glitterati3d

Lol Glitterati why did you delete the product that MM3 linked? It's no longer there. Have something to hide?

** **

Glitterati3D you bore me

** **

He He, never said that they are a conspiracy.

I do use JCMs regularly myself.

But I'm just wondering: JCMs are as old as V3, perhaps older. (I remember a Posette freebie having some)

But first DAZ gets out of their way to avoid them in V4, stuffing gazillions of magnets into her rig instead.

Then they develop TRI-AX featuring three separate weightmaps per joint to avoid both JCMs and magnets.

And now they drop TRI-AX and suddenly a single map + lots of JCMs are the latest, greatest thing.

I'm just a little confused now.  :-)

could V7 be rigged the way she is cause of unity and all https://www.morph3d.com/ ?That's Genesis 2 from morph3D.

Now this is what I call a community effort.

At least I know what happened to that gatsby outfit. China doll isn't as good as the k4 fantasy, but it's close.

Now now, let's not act the way she does. Let us all be nice:) But ye point proven. Want to talk smack and act like you know everything? Then be prepared to back it up, or people will call you out on it:)

Now that glitter has had her fun, let's at least get somewhere in the vicinity of speaking about V4.

He He, never said that they are a conspiracy.

I do use JCMs regularly myself.

But I'm just wondering: JCMs are as old as V3, perhaps older. (I remember a Posette freebie having some)

But first DAZ gets out of their way to avoid them in V4, stuffing gazillions of magnets into her rig instead.

Then they develop TRI-AX featuring three separate weightmaps per joint to avoid both JCMs and magnets.

And now they drop TRI-AX and suddenly a single map + lots of JCMs are the latest, greatest thing.

I'm just a little confused now.  :-)

could V7 be rigged the way she is cause of unity and all https://www.morph3d.com/ ?That's Genesis 2 from morph3D.

my bad does unity,unreal etc etc use tri axe,maginets,jvc's,weights ? and Zev0 when you respond to quotes could ya right below the vertical bar, thanks

The mesh is converted to Tri's. Genesis 3 rigging and mesh was designed for compatibility with Maya and Max. Game engines don't really care about that rigging or wm's once a figure is converted to Tri's. And I hate the quote system in this forum.

And the poor little DAZ Gang is owned yet again.

Oh, did you see that?  I can even rig for V4!  Dang, I'm certain that just breaks your pea pickin' little hearts.

Rorr, get back to me when you rig it.  JCMs or not.  LOL!

And the poor little DAZ Gang is owned yet again.

Oh, did you see that?  I can even rig for V4!  Damn, I'm certain that just breaks your pea pickin' little hearts.

Rorr, get back to me when you rig it.  JCMs or not.  LOL!

So on that K4 Fantasy item you deleted so quickly, did that have jcms that you could show as an example to your assertions? From the way you were speaking earlier, I thought you wanted us to do a google for your work. Then you deleted it?  That part I don't quite understand, but I think it ultimately makes sense.

Edit, the 2nd promo of that v4 product in your store has a thigh jcm issue, jagged edges and the bottom cuts right through the right leg as well. You probably should have added some ghost bones in there too so it could clear the leg rather than go right through it. Or if you weren't going to correct it, you probably lost a few sales by including a promo with that pose that shows the issues with your outfit when posed with a leg and thigh bend.

LMAO ,zBrush does not use riggs anything like daz ,poser .zBrush uses zSheres ,TransPose

The mesh is converted to Tri's. Genesis 3 rigging and mesh was designed for compatibility with Maya and Max. Game engines don't really care about that rigging or wm's once a figure is converted to Tri's. And I hate the quote system in this forum.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fv__G6KJQ8

call of duty ghost uses quads subD's ,I was tripping out. I was use to tri game meshes that ya could never tell what you was looking at.

I would have thought max n maya didn't need all those ghost bone and had a better rigging system.ya know some kind of unheard of 2050 tech .

wish they'd get a indie subscription 

ya the quotes kill me to.

It depends on the game engine. Some can handle quads. Most prefer to deal with tri's only.

Guys, please stay on topic. Attacks will lead to a warning up to a ban.

Thanks!

 to follow the rules I made a thread here

 http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2891797

this thread has been very educational and I don't want the education to end

thanks 

I will note, to the topic of this thread, that I stopped using V4, in general use and renders about 3 to 3.5 years ago. These days I use her to set up morph transfers using GenX2 and for texture transfers to Genesis 2 Female and nothing more. Bend quality, even with addon "fixers," and clothing quality, just isn't, generally, up to the quality I have become accustomed to working with.

In my opinion, great for her day, yes. Compared to Genesis/Genesis 2/Genesis 3, no. 

"I will note, to the topic of this thread, that I stopped using V4, in general use and renders about 3 to 3.5 years ago. These days I use her to set up morph transfers using GenX2 and for texture transfers to Genesis 2 Female and nothing more. Bend quality, even with addon "fixers," and clothing quality, just isn't, generally, up to the quality I have become accustomed to working with.

In my opinion, great for her day, yes. Compared to Genesis/Genesis 2/Genesis 3, no."

I recently Dumped  V4/M4 As primary Characters as well

in favor of G2 now that I have a clean pipeline to get  fully textured&animated G2 figures over to Maxon C4D for animation  projects via OBJ+MDD out from Daz

I will still use V4/M4 as well as the poser 6 natives (jessie& james), for some animations depending on what the clients needs are.

On the thread topic I will Add this to Why I used V4 For so long( and now her natural Genesis successors)

As far as I can tell All of the afformentioned Third party poser figures (and their rare token, after thought ,Male counter parts,)

Were based largely on someones Idealized,Fantasy notion of thin/fit caucasian/nordic/European breeds

I use My 3D character programs for$$paid$$ Client work both still illustrate& animated.

V4 with the Morph ++ along with the great free body morphs from "Die Trying",Was the first Figure to allow the creation of realistic

"normal" and Overweight & Obese characters for 

"Stages of life "medical Illustrations and the like

.

And Genesis is even better particularly with its HD Cellulite morphs.

not mention decent looking Aging morphs

Yes I am sure there were some "ethnic skin" packages for Dawn or whomever.

But show me renders of an overweight dawn,Rex or roxy that looks realistic.

Some of us need figures that offer versatility that is far removed from these Eurocentric skinny white girls that  those other figure largely represent.

V4 , and her genesis successors  offer such versatility.

New Octane render using V4WM.

As a hobbiest, doing this at night on a notebook on the kitchen table, V4 is the most familiar to me, and she does what I ask her to do. I have huge libraries of stuff for V4, 98% of it I've never used, will never use. I've made custom morphs and textures for her, and don't want to have to reinvent the wheel.

I've made an honest effort to learn DS, but I'm too entrenched in Poser, and having to learn new software takes time away from doing what I really want to do, create images. I've used V4 WM, and she is likeable, but haven't seen the advantage of her over V4. Yes, I know she can do these wonderful things, but I'm not seeing it. I have Dawn and her hubby/boyfriend in a seperate runtime, and have really been underwhelmed with her. Probably using her wrong.

The G2 and up are impressive, but I can get results I like (mostly) with the tools I have. Having better models will not make me a better artist. Most of a good render comes down to textures and lighting.

That's not to say that If they made V7 compatible (and stable) with Poser I would be all over her like a hobo on a hotdog.

I still use most of the Generation 4 figures because I hate DSON.  However, I recently moved to the Genesis 2 figures because there was better clothing available especially for the male figures which are often neglected.  I got V6 for free just for buying a cheap prop item.  If I could convert Genesis clothing back to V4, I would do so because I could get rid of DSON. Even trying to convert clothing without PCF is a pain and often requires a lot of work or giving up.  Exporting from DAZ Studio doesn't always work.

I still use most of the Generation 4 figures because I hate DSON.  However, I recently moved to the Genesis 2 figures because there was better clothing available especially for the male figures which are often neglected.  I got V6 for free just for buying a cheap prop item.  If I could convert Genesis clothing back to V4, I would do so because I could get rid of DSON. Even trying to convert clothing without PCF is a pain and often requires a lot of work or giving up.  Exporting from DAZ Studio doesn't always work.

You can - it just isn't very easy - how much pain are you willing to endure?

New Octane render using V4WM.

I want to thank you for that excellent example of why I no longer use older figures.  The elbow bend is quite unrealistic. On a person the elbow bone should protrude and the crease should generally be straight and not look like a mesh tear. And the neck looks incredibly painful. 

Now while some people may consider that "good enough," I don't, especially when there are other options that do appear more realistic.

I'm set up with V4//M4 and the skin maps and muscle maps and some internal organs that were adapted, and morphs and skeleton.  So when I do medical illustrations, it is just easy.  I'll probably use these models for many years to come.  And, after making a few things in Marvelous Designer to fit the 4 series, I'm content.

@ bhoins:

Instead of constantly bickering, why don't you show us a render of your oh so superiour "G" thing, in the exact same pose?
Maybe THAT could convince me, eventually.
Just unproven claims by a known troll doesn't. It's just blabbing.

Best regards
-P-

@ bhoins:

Instead of constantly bickering, why don't you show us a render of your oh so superiour "G" thing, in the exact same pose?
Maybe THAT could convince me, eventually.
Just unproven claims by a known troll doesn't. It's just blabbing.

Best regards
-P-

If he does, I hope he doesn't break her neck like glitter did. You know that's not a realistic neck bend right?

@ Male:M3dia:

So you say it isnt. Because you say so.

So please show us what else it should look like, just to make your point!

Otherwise I'd be sorry to consider your post just more blabbing, by another known troll.

Kindest regards, and good luck with the posing
-P-

@ Male:M3dia:

So you say it isnt. Because you say so.

So please show us what else it should look like, just to make your point!

Otherwise I'd be sorry to consider your post just more blabbing, by another known troll.

Kindest regards, and good luck with the posing
-P-

It's no need to disprove the obvious, the neck and the rest is badly posed. Thanks anyway.

It's not the neck... the side to side rotation of the head is too extreme and as children effect their parents in the heirarchy blab blab blab. The other bending flaws could be fixed with a blab minutes of post blab.

@ bhoins:

Instead of constantly bickering, why don't you show us a render of your oh so superiour "G" thing, in the exact same pose?
Maybe THAT could convince me, eventually.
Just unproven claims by a known troll doesn't. It's just blabbing.

What good will that do? It will just cause more fighting. Some people here will believe what they want even if evidence is presented right in front of them.

@ bhoins:

Instead of constantly bickering, why don't you show us a render of your oh so superiour "G" thing, in the exact same pose?
Maybe THAT could convince me, eventually.
Just unproven claims by a known troll doesn't. It's just blabbing.

Best regards
-P-

...and a simple observation about the shape of an elbow devolves into the usual name-calling and sticking-out-of-tongues and ganging-up and taking sides. A normal day in the Poser community, where "Dress-up-Dolly" is actually a virtual bloodsport. It's like dog fighting, but you can do it in your underpants.

@ bhoins:

Instead of constantly bickering, why don't you show us a render of your oh so superiour "G" thing, in the exact same pose?
Maybe THAT could convince me, eventually.
Just unproven claims by a known troll doesn't. It's just blabbing.

Best regards
-P-

LOL, pikesPit, not to worry.  Did you expect any less from this crew? But what can I say....it's a DAZ figure, wearing DAZ clothing, using a DAZ pose.

Pretty standard DAZ quality.

LOL, V4 is nearly an 8 year old figure, yet she is still better than other new figures that have been released from other companies or parties. How is that for quality:) Don't blame the figure for your poor composition skills. Maybe you just don't have an eye for detail. Hmmmm, actually that would explain a lot actually:) You're just a miserable person who is bitter that nobody uses the figures you rally behind so you choose to hate as a counter argument. Everybody knows it, you make it so obvious lol. But that's why we love you. You add so much to our entertainment value here in the threads:)

I don't think it really matters what Figure you use. Just about every character out there has something odd about it, but does it really matter in the end?

Poser has the Morph Brush, which is very handy. Many of us have been digging into CR2 files for years, so there is no mystery there either. If something does not look the way you think it should, get in there and change it. Is V4 perfect? Well no, but everyone has been using it for years and has a lot of content for it. Is there a perfect character? No, and we all know that. All of them have issues, and people are going to tell people what they think should be done to it to make it better.

It is odd to me how lots of people instantly jump onto the next character and claim that it is the next best thing, then when the next one comes out they jump on that one as well. But in the end, many go back to V4 (or whatever Figure they prefer to use)

It really does not matter what Figure anyone uses, and people have said why they still use V4. I rarely use her, but who other than me really cares about that?

Apparently a lot of people do.... And the "Best Figure Wars" start all over again, even thou many are still using whatever Figure they want too. Which may not even be the one they claim to be the next best figure............

Here is a scene to show what can be done with just about any Figure. I could do this with any Figure, it doesn't really matter to me which one either.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________ 

V4~WM, this is my version of it which is based on the Poser Place one. Which still has goofy shoulders... lol... Syyds Vanilla Sky textures that I have modded. 

V3~WM, this is my version.

And here is Dawn, again one of my mods. Modded default textures.

Are all of them perfect? Well no, not really.... The differences between them are obvious. They are in the same scene, the same lighting, etc. The textures had to be modded to fit the lighting setup, simply because I use a rather non traditional lighting setup in Poser. And just because I tend to do that to a lot of content.

Was it all point and click? Well, not really. I had to spin some dials, mod the pose to fit the rigging better, etc. But what it does show is that I don;t really care what Figure it is, I can get it into a scene without pulling my hair out. 

There is no make art button aside from the one Phil put into Wardrobe Wizard.

The best part about Figures, is having the choice out of entire line up of them. At least to me anyway....

Carry on.....................................................................................................................................................

I see none of the "special experts" came up with something of their own, except more text.

Just as I expected.

So here's my version of glitter's render.

It's my own version of V4, wight-mapped by myself, and rendered in PP2014.

Using SSS and IDL, just one infinite light and BB's environment sphere.

Please note that it's the same base mesh that glitterati used, just rigged and weight-mapped differently.

Which proves to (most) people that it's not a question of the newest and hottest mesh , but of what tech you use, and how well you use the software of your choice (as shvrdavid already showed absolutely brilliantly in his post above).

This, and considering the wealth of textures, poses and expressions available for V4;

THIS is the reason why I'm still using V4, and I don't think that it will change within this decade at least.

You know, numbers (of which meshes are made) don't have an expiry date, and they don't have "planned obsolescence" either.

Regards,

Peter

Oh, and there's another thing why I still use V4, and will probably continue to do so for several years:

I know that mesh and it's cr2 in and out, so if I am after something special, I know quite well what do to, and how to achieve what I want.

I also know about the flaws of the mesh, so it's rather easy to figure out a workaround should there be problems. You know, it's like your old and worn out favourite jacket: you just feel comfortable, and it fits your needs.

-P-

Some superb renders which, for me at least, goes to show it is not so much which figure you use but the skill of the person using it.  For some the skill will come from natural ability and others it will be from a great deal of research and hard work.  Then again it might just come from the amount of time you put into such renders and, god forbid, the level of fun you are having. 

@ hornet3d,

I've come to respect you as a real Gentleman by your posts, because you never go overboard, and keep it modest all the time. I'd like to thank you for that here.

You're absolutely right in most of what you wrote, except one point maybe:

Provided you have a figure that prohibits most of the errors usually made in posing it (by constraining the body parts' bend and twist limits to something more human-like), and adding a few other features, posing a figure like V4 can become a breeze.

My render above, from loading the figure, applying the mats, posing it, and rendering, was a matter of somewhat above an hour.

And "god forbid": I did have a lot of fun in doing it! :)

Thank you!

Peter

P.S.:

I don't consider my skill level as special - just a Poser user who's learned some things over the years. The open source format of Poser's files is what makes Poser special, and allows us all to tweak our work until we have what we want to achieve.

That's the main reason why I'll stick to Poser b.t.w.

-P-

@ hornet3d,

I've come to respect you as a real Gentleman by your posts, because you never go overboard, and keep it modest all the time. I'd like to thank you for that here.

You're absolutely right in most of what you wrote, except one point maybe:

Provided you have a figure that prohibits most of the errors usually made in posing it (by constraining the body parts' bend and twist limits to something more himan-like), and adding a few other features, posing a figure like V4 can become a breeze.

My render above, from loading the figure, applying the mats, posing it, and rendering, was a matter of somewhat above an hour.

And "god forbid": I did have fun in doing it! :)

Thank you!

Peter

P.S.:

I don't consider my skill level as special - just a Poser user who's learned some things over the years. But the open source format of Poser's files is what makes Poser special, and allows us all to tweak our work until we have what we wanted to achieve.

That's the main reason why I'll stick to Poser b.t.w.

-P-

OHH, steady there, you will ruin the reputation I am trying to build as the gruff poser user.

Seriously, thanks for the comments, I do try and see merit in anything anyone writes and, if it is different from my point of view try to see why there might be a difference. Despite that there are some posters that seem to be able to push my buttons, particularly if they are trying to guide some new users down a road that may not be right for them.  In such instances the ignore button is very useful.  That aside, anyone with an aim to upset me personally has to get up early in the morning and be trying very hard to succeed, life is too short.

You are of course right in the comments regarding the ease of use of figures, which is just as well as with my limited skill level I would really struggle otherwise.  Luckily for me I can buy in some help thanks to a number of skilled vendors so I have a vast number of poses I can use to get my character to a pose that is close to what I need and adjust from there.  I have worked with V4, now V4WM, for so long now I am aware of the problems I might have with certain poses so I know where to look and how to use the morph brush to correct.

Realistic Posing is certainly is not difficult and if I gave the impression it is then that was not my intent.   I think the point I was supporting was the view that there is no perfect figure and that if someone has the time, skill, or motivation that fantastic renders are possible irrespective of the figure.  Some figures will be easier than others but it is still possible.

Finally I am so glad you admitted to having fun as reading these forums a new user could easily conclude that working with a certain figure/software and having fun was mutually exclusive.

OHH, steady there, you will ruin the reputation I am trying to build as the gruff poser user.

Oh, you fail miserably at that! :D

As for me, and "pushed buttons":

If you look over my meager post history, you'll notice that I mostly tried to keep out of the bickering. It's just this time here where I went overboard and stated the obvious. Because no one else dares, but knows exactly which members are the problem, I decided to approach the members personally, by name. I might get banned for that but - phhtt - let it be. If the trolls get more protection than contributing members, so be it.

But I'm just so fed up with always the same gang having "carte blanche" here, ruining any thread they pick upon.

All I want is to come here, learn, get my questions answered, and if I can, share what I know.

What I don't want is some "Super Gurus" ruining threads with their constant same-same of how bad Poser is, how bad the work done by it's users is, and how soon Poser will die.

Thank you for reading my ramblings.

Cheer up!

Peter

To further my point, here's another render of my V4WM.

Still waiting for the "fanboys" experts to present something similar, lest superiour...

This is as FireFly rendered it - I saved it as JPEG so anyone im doubt can use the software of his choice to verify that no postwork was done.

-P-

B.t.w., "Nudity Warning" didn't work, and I can't add it in an edit post too. You (Rendo) really need to work on the forum software... Sigh!

I'm going to leave this right here for you.

This is Genesis 3, custom head morph, custom body morph, quick and dirty pose, since I don't do poses for a living. 

The idea behind teaching people to try to do better posing is not to repeat the same broken neck pose, but to show a more appealing one. Also to show improvements by doing that pose with not a base figure, but custom head and body morphs to show the rigging and mesh isn't totally buckling when you change the body shapes. Also learning how to do proper lighting is also a must before trying to come for someone that has more experience than you. 

You're welcome. Class dismissed, please take your textbook with you because you need lots more studying and homework. Off to work on my stuff again.

I agree, the render quality is quite good for an airbrush pattern on a trailer.

Now try to paste your render into a real photograph and let's look how real it still looks...

custom made morphs don't really show much about the quality of the base mesh, because so much can be ironed out with a custom morph. So this argument is moot.

I'll skip your further comments, because you seem to contradict yourself.

Also learning how to do proper lighting is also a must before trying to come for someone that has more experience than you.  

I suggest you challenge BagginsBill then. Looking forward to that thread :D

But of course, for a super professional as you are, it shouldn't be a problem.

Tina Turner: "You're simply the best - better than all the rest"

Yes. Dream on.

Here is V7. No post work, rendered in Iray, 13:33min render. No fancy lighting. Just a render to show posing. V4 rigging looks dated compared to what we currently have to play with. Natural looking bends make all the difference, specially on the arms and legs. Anyways, this thread is about V4. But a comparison was asked, so here you have it.

I agree, the render quality is quite good for an airbrush pattern on a trailer.

Now try to paste your render into a real photograph and let's look how real it still looks...

custom made morphs don't really show much about the quality of the base mesh, because so much can be ironed out with a custom morph. So this argument is moot.

I'll skip your further comments, because you seem to contradict yourself.

Also learning how to do proper lighting is also a must before trying to come for someone that has more experience than you.  

I suggest you challenge BagginsBill then. Looking forward to that thread :D

But of course, for a super professional as you are, it shouldn't be a problem.

Tina Turner: "You're simply the best - better than all the rest"

Yes. Dream on.

LOL, I hate to burst your bubble, but that's just iray doing his thing. Also my custom morphs without any correctives, beats your plain simple rigging of old tech. In the meantime, I would try to work on improving your skill instead on hating on the vastly better work of others. Jade should be a color, not emotion. Your seat is over there. And with that, I'm going to click the ignore button. I think I've more than made my point and this is about V4, not someone trying to needlessly start fights with me.

OHH, steady there, you will ruin the reputation I am trying to build as the gruff poser user.

Oh, you fail miserably at that! :D

As for me, and "pushed buttons":

If you look over my meager post history, you'll notice that I mostly tried to keep out of the bickering. It's just this time here where I went overboard and stated the obvious. Because no one else dares, but knows exactly which members are the problem, I decided to approach the members personally, by name. I might get banned for that but - phhtt - let it be. If the trolls get more protection than contributing members, so be it.

But I'm just so fed up with always the same gang having "carte blanche" here, ruining any thread they pick upon.

All I want is to come here, learn, get my questions answered, and if I can, share what I know.

What I don't want is some "Super Gurus" ruining threads with their constant same-same of how bad Poser is, how bad the work done by it's users is, and how soon Poser will die.

Thank you for reading my ramblings.

Cheer up!

Peter

Well I sure hope that you don't get banned, so many good people have already left.  I do understand you view point and I did think a week or so ago that things were going to improve.  There were a new set of rules and a good timely intervention in a thread.  Another thread was stopped in it's tracks in the last day or so but other than that it has been business as usual.  The rules have come and gone and are generally ignored. Over at RDNA, where a lot of good posters migrated, one individual was taken to task in no uncertain terms by the site owner and the thread stayed alive and informative.  I also note that, after all the claims that it was all Poser users fault that the threads were like this, the one thread that was moved from the Poser forum to the Daz forum degenerated in the usual manner, which says a lot.

Having said all that you can only blame the individuals so far, if they are allowed to get very personal (and sometimes hateful), with only the occasional 'let's be nice' comments from the powers that be you really can't expect anyone to change.

If you read back you will see it was pikesPit that just jumped in and started all this, demanding we show comparisons to back up our comments. He felt the need to jump in and fight somebody elses battles. Wasn't it he who got personal? Surely looks that way reading back.

"Instead of constantly bickering, why don't you show us a render of your oh so superiour "G" thing, in the exact same pose?
Maybe THAT could convince me, eventually.
Just unproven claims by a known troll doesn't. It's just blabbing."

End quote

It is very easy in a 10 page thread to highlight a post and point the finger at an individual.  I tend to judge fellow users by the long term behavior of the individuals but then that is just my opinion.  You are equally entitled to yours so we are not going to argue over it.

Oh well, as long as we're comparing di..., erm, Vickys, I just as well can throw a few renders of my V4 LOD-17kWM out there:

But as I said, I just use her as a background/secondary figure to make use of V4's extensive wardrobe without much fuss.

And because it's fun morphing her:

But...

...the point is of course that while advanced users might have the talent and time needed to make even old & obsolete figures usable, the average "one-click user" wants (needs) something that works as perfectly as possible out of the box.

And of course he periodically wants something NEW and EXITING. Why else would people wait in line for hours just to buy a new iPhone while the old one they bought a few months ago is still working perfectly fine?

While you might still be perfectly content with decade old V4 content (HeHe), new users which aren't set in their ways yet, will inevitable be pulled towards the latest, greatest.

And it's that steady stream of new users that keeps a company alive.

(And I say that as someone who still uses mostly DAZ 3rd Gen meshes because I think V4's cr2 is way to complicated for my needs!)

Still, sorry to say Zev0, but V7's elbows are way ugly. I know some (most?) people have elbows like that, so they might be perfectly realistic.

They are still ugly.

Oh, and one of the straps of her top bends weirdly, too.

;-)

"All I want is to come here, learn, get my questions answered, and if I can, share what I know.

What I don't want is some "Super Gurus" ruining threads with their constant same-same of how bad Poser is, how bad the work done by it's users is, and how soon Poser will die."

And that's why I would like to see a sort of HARDCORE/PROFESSIONAL Poser forum added, where the "Gurus" and the "Serious" users can happily dissect the latest "Vicky Killer", while the rest of you can have a nice, remotely Poser themed coffe klatsch.

;-)