Using Pos10 I have a hard time posing and using DAZ figures and clothes. Suspect DSON intermediary is problem and wondering if Genesis product handling will be improved.? Since I Use a lot of that stuff without any improvement in this area even the $99 upgrade price seems ridiculous. All the need goodies in the world do me little good if I can't get there.

Hi. Genesis is not a Poser figure and so the DSON plugin is needed to use it. That is DAZ technology and nothing related to Poser. If improvements can be made they need to come from DAZ, not Smith Micro.

Seems dumb to me since so much of what is being produced is relying on DAZ-esque stuff Poser seems to think the other guy should be the one to change. As much as SM might think they are the big boys here. They AIN'T. . . . . . at least as far as most of the amateur community is concerned. And they are a big part chunk of the pie.

There is nothing propitiatory about the way the genesis 3 figures are set up and it was created to be more easily integrated into the wider industry. SM chose not to support those wider industry standards. They also chose not to integrate the initial genesis figures for what ever personal reasons.

I think I am stuck in a time warp. Each time I come into the forums I seem to relive a day from about four years ago.

hornet3d posted at 12:27PM Wed, 18 November 2015 - #4239331

I think I am stuck in a time warp. Each time I come into the forums I seem to relive a day from about four years ago.

It is sad,but true.

Jesus Christ, can't people just learn to accept that POSER WILL NEVER BE GENESIS COMPATIBLE! Get over it, and move on!

Sick and tired of seeing the same old thread pop up on regular intervalls.

hornet3d posted at 11:20AM Wed, 18 November 2015 - #4239331

I think I am stuck in a time warp. Each time I come into the forums I seem to relive a day from about four years ago.

You know, I think you've nailed it. We're all stuck in a Renderosity Forum version of "Groundhog Day".

Khory_D posted at 8:23PM Wed, 18 November 2015 - #4239328

There is nothing propitiatory about the way the genesis 3 figures are set up and it was created to be more easily integrated into the wider industry. SM chose not to support those wider industry standards. They also chose not to integrate the initial genesis figures for what ever personal reasons.

And the other "wider industry" programs who fully support Genesis are which, please?

So will you stop pestering us with your ever-the-same "Genesis is Industry Standard" claims. It is not, and those claiming it is become a PITA. Seriously.

Regards

Peter

Maya and 3dmax both support Dual Quaternion which is what Poser would have needed to support for people to use Genesis 3.

Just checking the marketplace here on Renderosity and find very little other than Genesis figures and supporting do-dads. Kinda makes it an industry standard don'cha think. As an old (emphasis on Old) poser user I've resisted Studio since learning new stuff is hard at my age and ignoring Genesis isn't helping my loyalty. SM recalcitrance only hurts their market share. And "Party Hack" boo hoo's help even less. Don't like the complaint quit the complaints and help fix the problem or watch Poser slip to an distant also ran as far as the very lucrative amateur market is concerned. with the advent of Reality, Iray and other third party helpers for our use I can't see where P11 offers people like me a good reason to up grade. If SM had fixed this problem I would have jumped on it. As an added thought I personally am not happy with DAZ dominance but if you look around you lots of people have jumped on the bandwagon producing great products for the amateur. DAZ is NOT leading from behind like or not.

The only people complaining are the ones who want to use genesis in Poser. The rest of us are happily using Poser as it was intended. (And for many of them, DSON importer works just fine)

Can Max and Maya read .duf files?

I am not here to create a flame war by any means ... but it was never SM's choice to not support Genesis. It was DAZ's who owns Genesis technology and DSON. Just to be clear here.

moriador posted at 3:19PM Wed, 18 November 2015 - #4239340

hornet3d posted at 11:20AM Wed, 18 November 2015 - #4239331

I think I am stuck in a time warp. Each time I come into the forums I seem to relive a day from about four years ago.

You know, I think you've nailed it. We're all stuck in a Renderosity Forum version of "Groundhog Day".

ROTFLMAO

DreaminGirl posted at 9:16PM Wed, 18 November 2015 - #4239360

The only people complaining are the ones who want to use genesis in Poser. The rest of us are happily using Poser as it was intended. (And for many of them, DSON importer works just fine)

Can Max and Maya read .duf files?

No, they can't read .duf files but they can read FBX. That's what allowed me to get a rigged, textured and morphable G3f into Cinema on day one. No special exporter, no special importer.

Just so you know. .. I upgraded to poser 11 and dson will not work with old pz3 files. SM sent me to Daz. Luckily I don't have a big investment in Genesis 2. I tried to reinstall dson and the settings does not have an option for poser 11. Thus I will not be getting any more genesis stuff and I will have to think hard about other Daz products . It looks lik v4 and m4, Paul and Pauline will HAVE to do.

cclesue posted at 4:45PM Wed, 18 November 2015 - #4239349

Just checking the marketplace here on Renderosity and find very little other than Genesis figures and supporting do-dads. Kinda makes it an industry standard don'cha think. As an old (emphasis on Old) poser user I've resisted Studio since learning new stuff is hard at my age and ignoring Genesis isn't helping my loyalty. SM recalcitrance only hurts their market share. And "Party Hack" boo hoo's help even less. Don't like the complaint quit the complaints and help fix the problem or watch Poser slip to an distant also ran as far as the very lucrative amateur market is concerned. with the advent of Reality, Iray and other third party helpers for our use I can't see where P11 offers people like me a good reason to up grade. If SM had fixed this problem I would have jumped on it. As an added thought I personally am not happy with DAZ dominance but if you look around you lots of people have jumped on the bandwagon producing great products for the amateur. DAZ is NOT leading from behind like or not.

I have the same opinion as you and i am also an "old" poser user. These topics always end with comments like "discussed many times, get over it", "you do not have the real poser attitude", "start using daz studio".

Integrated daz studio support it is not going to happen. So although i am 56 years old and i was not looking forward to start using DAZ studio, out of frustration i started using daz studio. O it was frustrating in the beginning but after a month it was ok. Nothing wrong with giving the brain a little workout, prevents dementia.

Just try it.

I am still using poser also, but i will not upgrade to poser 11. I always upgraded in the past, i guess i am not the only one not upgrading because of this issue. Very difficult to judge how many users have switched to daz studio, but i also see a lot of content for G3F offered on this marketplace. So that kind of content must sell very good thus quit a lot of people are using daz studio.

I regret that things are the way they are, but no one is to blame. Just simple company decisions to make as much profit as they can. SM could offer integrated daz content usability, but it would cost a lot more to implement that. So the price of poser would be higher or they would have to sell more copies of the software. I guess they evaluated this and made a good business decision. DAZ judged years ago that they could not go where they wanted to go with the poser platform, they took a big risk and started there software platform. It was also a good business decision.

Do not get frustrated about these things.

Michel

Boni posted at 7:08PM Wed, 18 November 2015 - #4239362

I am not here to create a flame war by any means ... but it was never SM's choice to not support Genesis. It was DAZ's who owns Genesis technology and DSON. Just to be clear here.

I'm not sure what it would be called other than a choice. The Poser team was offered the tech to support Genesis before Genesis was released and they didn't choose to. DSON was developed later by Daz because people wanted to use the figures in Poser. They also knew what they would need to do to support genesis 3 while they were working on this version of Poser and did not.

@OP, don't expect to be allowed to have a reasonable discussion here about Poser's compatibility inefficiencies. all you will get is bullying and trolling no matter how diplomatically you raise an issue. That's how it rolls in here. Anyone who dares to go on and make a counter point the Poserphiles will yell "Troll,troll,troll!!!" over and over again until everyone wanders of.

There is nothing in Genesis that the Poser Platform couldn't support if SM wanted to. Daz3D would actually happily work with SM to make Genesis native and get rid of the clunky DSON setup, improving everyone's user experience. The reality is Poserphiles and SM have a personal grudge and they don't want to support these things for their customers. So Daz Studio is increasingly the markets choice.

Yep what's done is done..Don't want to support Genesis then fine. No problem. But offer an alternative for your users if that is your decision. So what was SM's response? Pauline and Paul..Kind of an Appauline effort compared to what else is currently on offer.....It's like they simply didn't bother comparing their figures to what is dominating the market. I was really hoping for something groundbreaking this time around, since they keep boasting about Posers capabilities and how powerful it is, yet the figures do not showcase that at all. They still look like something from 2005.

Anyways, this was the last straw for me. I gave up all hope of SM ever getting their act together. This version release proves they simply do not have the resources, manpower and vendor support to compete in this market anymore. I wish them the best of luck. And now, this "troll" shall return to lurk mode...

If being honest makes me a troll.. Well nothing you can do about that. Your right Razor. Daz is pragmatic about all of this and would be happy to work with SM. SM though I think is coming from an emotional place. To the determent of themselves and at least a fair portion of their remaining customer base. They could have had free marketing and free R&D but fear that they might help the "competition" prevented them from reaping those rewards.

So this all is kind of an ego thing on behalf of the SM people according to the last posts. IF that is true it sucks.

I won't say ego really, more like pride. Nothing wrong with pride, however it can affect certain business decisions. Sh1t I'm supposed to be lurking. Ok gone... C ya...

I think it is not fair to put all the blame on SM. It is the majority of the Poser community. SM promised to listen to them and SM fulfilled their wishes. That community wanted something new, but without any having a change. After all their biggest fear is, that they can't make use of their V4 content. PP2014 was amazing, P11Pro pretty disappointing. Reread the wishlist threads and you know who is to blame. And Pauline? Not appealing at all, but the excample Anastasia shows, that she's not necessary lost. Erogenesis showed, that somebody skilled could save her. Unlike Anastasia, Pauline needs to be rerigged as well. Too bad, we don't have modern rigging standarts with this new Poser. Ah right, backward compatibility.

hornet3d posted at 8:41PM Wed, 18 November 2015 - #4239331

I think I am stuck in a time warp. Each time I come into the forums I seem to relive a day from about four years ago.

And, this thread is a perfect example of why Poser users have abandoned Renderosity in droves.

I wouldn't say ego really.. My personal guess is that at a meeting someone said "but do we want to do something that might help another company" and the answer was "no" so they refused the offer. Which is ironic really when you think about it because Daz very much wanted (and I suspect expected) to be inclusive with Genesis and Poser. After that they felt sort of locked into a less than ideal stance. I think at the time they did see content for poser users as very important and for Daz content is still the most important factor as a company. Other wise they would never have worked on a system to try and get the figures into Poser. That choice really did start a change in the landscape for product support. Non inclusion of the Daz figures made everyone start looking at the numbers as far as sales and support. Had Poser included Genesis then I doubt that ever would have happened for many content creators. It would have been (and I think Daz felt very much it would be) a win win for both companies. Daz continues to be able to support poser customers more fully and SM would have had solid content that was well supported and taking much of the stress off of them as far as figure creation goes. SM would also have been able to coat tail on a fair bit of Daz marketing as well. There is a reason companies that might seem competitive work together. It can often be beneficial to everyone. One example would be Daz and Unity. They both sell content but Unity also understands that more content for their customers to use helps potentially expand the customer base.

"And, this thread is a perfect example of why Poser users have abandoned Renderosity in droves."

If they did they have not shown up anywhere else in droves...

This argument is moot anyway, as it's just a matter of time before content released at Daz will be connect only. At that point it won't matter if Poser supports Genesis or not, you won't be able to use it anywhere but Studio. I think that says it all.

DreaminGirl posted at 9:52PM Wed, 18 November 2015 - #4239419

This argument is moot anyway, as it's just a matter of time before content released at Daz will be connect only. At that point it won't matter if Poser supports Genesis or not, you won't be able to use it anywhere but Studio. I think that says it all.

And that is nothing but bs conjecture.

DreaminGirl posted at 1:50PM Thu, 19 November 2015 - #4239419

This argument is moot anyway, as it's just a matter of time before content released at Daz will be connect only. At that point it won't matter if Poser supports Genesis or not, you won't be able to use it anywhere but Studio. I think that says it all.

Of course the argument is moot, SM have no interest whatsoever in collaboration with Daz3D in anyway. They would much prefer to leave their customers with lesser products out in the cold, rather than consider collaboration with the industry's largest leading content development site. Gun--->Foot.

Plus what you said is, at best, a distortion of the facts. I think that says it all...

One of the primary reasons SMS chose not to go with native Genesis support had to do with tying not tying Poser to another company, their upgrade schedule, their SDK and any changes that might have broken other parts of Poser. There was also the decision not to go with DAZ Triax WM which was proprietary. SMS opted to keep Poser's open code which has allowed for many past user breakthroughs such as ERC. Was there some board meeting at SMS where members decided not to add native Genesis support to Poser because it would help DAZ? Who knows? Unless the poster was present in that board meeting, they shouldn't cast such aspersions on SMS.

Icprncess, I made a guess and I stated as much. It was not an "aspersion" unless your implying something about them that I was not. I am sure they believed that cutting the amount of content available to their customers was the way to go forward. That they continue to do that even without the excuse of proprietary, and with all the freely available information on site statistics and content popularity, to continue to exclude Daz figures says worlds more however.

By the way, you can say my name rather than "the poster" when your looking to cast a few aspersions of your own.

I wonder how important we are to SM. Their promo stuff does not feature any naked chicks with swords. Instead, it's contemporary people wearing ordinary clothes. Poser 7 had the Winter Princess (I think it was Poser 7), but mostly the Poser figures come with street clothes, not brass bikinis or chain mail.

There's a quote from Sydd at RDNA on their promo page, but also a quote from someone who works for Jimmy Kimmel, talking about how great it is to be able to prepare animations that will be broadcast that day.

And when I've seen Poser renders "in the wild," it's been in stuff like industrial training videos and forensic animations.

Maybe the NVIATWAS segment of their customers just aren't that important to them.

Okay folks let's try to be as objective as we can, no need to start attacking each other personally. We are all Artists and 3D content creators, we all want to see this field fertile with as many possibilities as possible for both pursuits. And i'm not saying that I haven't also been adding my fair share of tinder to the fire.

There is room in the market for both Poser and DS, it's just that the overlap is shifting content wise and to be honest has been for quite a while.

Despite what Poser or Daz do as companies we are all a stronger as a community in general, if we can work together with at a least a token of respect for each other and our tools of choice. The rifts in the community have unfortunately been underpinned by the rifts in the business direction of both SM and Daz3D. My hope is to one day see that overlap for content development be reintroduced as a broader community, we all stand to gain from this. Honestly I can't see how anyone would lose. But I'm also a realist and will work with the tools that best suit my needs without false delusions of what may happen in the future.

The real question is can Poser stay viable with a gaping content hole and no apparent intention to collaborate with the "tail" to fill that void. Is Poser providing a fertile ground for 3rd party content development and therefore a stronger community in general? Or moving to insulate itself as a small market niche software package, for those that like to build from the ground up, singlemindedly focusing on SM's own main profit stream (Selling Poser packages). I fear that a symptom of SM's anti Daz3d Collaboration approach is that it's a little anti 3rd party developer in general. Which is reflected in an industry wide slowing of Poser content creation.

If there market share is sinking it will become harder and harder to sustain oneself as a content developer with a Poser exclusive approach. This in turn will add to the independant 3rd party developer drop off. It seems to be heading down a gloomy path. Less content, less relevant content, leads to less users, leads to less development of 3rd party content due to viability issues, which leads to less users and so on. SM need to break this chain with Poser sooner rather than later.

Ask the question why is noone asking "Can I use Pauline in Daz Studio"? ;)

randym77 posted at 11:01PM Wed, 18 November 2015 - #4239433

I wonder how important we are to SM. Their promo stuff does not feature any naked chicks with swords. Instead, it's contemporary people wearing ordinary clothes. Poser 7 had the Winter Princess (I think it was Poser 7), but mostly the Poser figures come with street clothes, not brass bikinis or chain mail.

There's a quote from Sydd at RDNA on their promo page, but also a quote from someone who works for Jimmy Kimmel, talking about how great it is to be able to prepare animations that will be broadcast that day.

And when I've seen Poser renders "in the wild," it's been in stuff like industrial training videos and forensic animations.

Maybe the NVIATWAS segment of their customers just aren't that important to them.

In all the years I've been using Poser, I've seen it being used and recognized it's models in dozens of tv commercials, forensics recreations, department store displays, check outs, etc. It's used in the TV show Bones and Comedy Central's Colbert Report's intro clip was even created with Poser. And if I recall correctly even a portion of the CSI intro was done in Poser. Yet in all of those instances, it's always been Poser's native content I see being used. Never once did I see a daz model in any of those clips. I'm sure they are out there and I know they're being used in comics and such, but it's a lot harder to find than it is to find Poser content "in the wilds" as you say. It seems to me that it would be more beneficial to daz for their models to work in Poser, than it is to SM to have daz models in Poser. Contrary to popular opinion around here, Poser's existence and success is not dependent on whether or not it supports a 3rd party's content, which has been proven 3 times over now (P9 - P11). It's up to that 3rd party to make their content compatible with Poser. If they decide they don't want to that's their problem, not Poser's. I make and sell content for both platforms, and see no reason to merge the two.

As for Pauline, she seems to be sharing the top rows of what's hot on the front page of the store here for the last two days just fine, with a couple of her items contending with a hair model for the #1 spot. I've seen the two jump back and forth a few times just in the last 24 hours. Everything that's been released for her so far is on the what's hot page. How long it will stay there depends on how many people decide to continue developing content for her.

AmbientShade posted at 3:25PM Thu, 19 November 2015 - #4239435

randym77 posted at 11:01PM Wed, 18 November 2015 - #4239433

I wonder how important we are to SM. Their promo stuff does not feature any naked chicks with swords. Instead, it's contemporary people wearing ordinary clothes. Poser 7 had the Winter Princess (I think it was Poser 7), but mostly the Poser figures come with street clothes, not brass bikinis or chain mail.

There's a quote from Sydd at RDNA on their promo page, but also a quote from someone who works for Jimmy Kimmel, talking about how great it is to be able to prepare animations that will be broadcast that day.

And when I've seen Poser renders "in the wild," it's been in stuff like industrial training videos and forensic animations.

Maybe the NVIATWAS segment of their customers just aren't that important to them.

In all the years I've been using Poser, I've seen it being used and recognized it's models in dozens of tv commercials, forensics recreations, department store displays, check outs, etc. It's used in the TV show Bones and Comedy Central's Colbert Report's intro clip was even created with Poser. And if I recall correctly even a portion of the CSI intro was done in Poser. Yet in all of those instances, it's always been Poser's native content I see being used. Never once did I see a daz model in any of those clips. I'm sure they are out there and I know they're being used in comics and such, but it's a lot harder to find than it is to find Poser content "in the wilds" as you say. It seems to me that it would be more beneficial to daz for their models to work in Poser, than it is to SM to have daz models in Poser. Contrary to popular opinion around here, Poser's existence and success is not dependent on whether or not it supports a 3rd party's content, which has been proven 3 times over now (P9 - P11). It's up to that 3rd party to make their content compatible with Poser. If they decide they don't want to that's their problem, not Poser's. I make and sell content for both platforms, and see no reason to merge the two.

As for Pauline, she seems to be sharing the top rows of what's hot on the front page of the store here for the last two days just fine, with a couple of her items contending with a hair model for the #1 spot. I've seen the two jump back and forth a few times just in the last 24 hours. Everything that's been released for her so far is on the what's hot page. How long it will stay there depends on how many people decide to continue developing content for her.

Hmm, can I please direct you to have a look here.

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/www.renderosity.com

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/www.runtimedna.com

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/www.smithmicro.com

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/www.contentparadise.com

Compared with:

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/www.daz3d.com

It seems you're relying on intuition and past experience to draw your conclusions. I know statistics are not absolute but this is just one indicator among many of a trend in the market.

I have also in the past made content for both platforms, these days I find one platform far exceeds the other in sales return. So now I develope for one exclusively and the return is higher than ever before when I used to divide my time creating for both.

No points for guessing which is what I'm afraid.

Razor42 posted at 10:20PM Wed, 18 November 2015 - #4239434

Is Poser providing a fertile ground for 3rd party content development and therefore a stronger community in general? Or moving to insulate itself as a small market niche software package, for those that like to build from the ground up, singlemindedly focusing on SM's own main profit stream (Selling Poser packages). I fear that a system of SM's anti Daz3d Collaboration approach is that it's a little anti 3rd party developer in general. Which is reflected in an industry wide slowing of Poser content creation.

Well, Paul and Pauline are merchant resources, so I don't think they're anti third party in general.

I suspect we Rosity/DAZ types are a niche market for SM. Their bread and butter are TV shows that need to do quick animations, instructional animations (like the ones at Wal-Mart's automatic cashiers), documentaries, industrial video, forensic animators, commercial artists who do ads and technical illustrations, etc.

They're happy to have us, and will support us if it's not too much trouble, but they aren't going to jump through a lot of hoops. Yoking themselves to DAZ just doesn't make sense to them. It's not a matter of ego or grudges, it's that their main business is not Vicky users, and they aren't going to marry DAZ in order to keep Vicky in Poser.

If there market share is sinking it will become harder and harder to sustain oneself as a content developer with a Poser exclusive approach. This in turn will add to the independant 3rd party developer drop off. It seems to be heading down a gloomy path. Less content, less relevant content, leads to less users, leads to less development of 3rd party content due to viability issues, which leads to less users and so on. SM need to break this chain with Poser sooner rather than later.

Maybe they don't. Maybe they make enough money from their corporate users that they don't need us. It's nice to have us, but maybe they'll be just fine without us.

I really think all the supposed drama is just business. DAZ wasn't sure Poser would survive, and did what they could to ensure they would survive even if Poser didn't. SM doesn't see DAZ customers as all that important to their business, and aren't going to rewrite Poser for them. Nothing personal. Sucks for us, but it's nothing personal.

All indicators are showing SM is verging on Bankruptcy. Their stock price has plummeted from 17$ 5 years ago to .70c today. Their future is rated as uncertain by most investor advisors. So unfortunately the scenario you're describing doesn't really stack up at that end either I'm afraid.

Basically what Randym just said. Which makes all that alexa stuff pretty trivial. Not that it can be counted on as accurate anyway. I used to waste my time looking at site statistics too until I realized how irrelevant it all is.

The bottom line is I'm a content artist. Most of my work is done by commission. I don't limit myself to app wars and digital barbie doll fights. I build whatever content my client asks me to build if it's within my means of doing so. And most of my commissions come from Poser users, I might add.

Razor42 posted at 10:45PM Wed, 18 November 2015 - #4239436

Hmm, can I please direct you to have a look here.

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/www.renderosity.com

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/www.runtimedna.com

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/www.smithmicro.com

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/www.contentparadise.com

Compared with:

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/www.daz3d.com

It seems you're relying on intuition and past experience to draw your conclusions. I know statistics are not absolute but this is just one indicator among many of a trend in the market.

I don't think that means anything. Well, it does to content creators, and to DAZ, but not necessarily to SM.

Poser is supposed to be a complete package, and I suspect most users do not buy content for it. They just use what comes with it. SM doesn't care if they buy content or not, because their profit is from selling the software, not the content.

And if you're doing a workplace safety video, or instructions for a Wal-Mart checkout, or a medical diagram...what do you need to buy? The clothing, hair, etc. that comes with Poser is enough. (I've noticed a lot of the Poser guys are bald in these productions. Hair is still a pain, after all these years.)

Irrelevent to you ambient, but not irrelevant to the situation I'm afraid and to those who like to keep a finger on the pulse of things. What I'm talking about is keeping tools viable for all of us not "app wars and digital barbie doll fights" as you put it.

I don't think that means anything. Well, it does to content creators, and to DAZ, but not necessarily to SM.

Poser is supposed to be a complete package, and I suspect most users do not buy content for it. They just use what comes with it. SM doesn't care if they buy content or not, because their profit is from selling the software, not the content.

What profit SMS loses millions of USD each quarter?

Well, it does to content creators

Have a look here http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/smith-micro-reports-2015-third-quarter-financial-results-300167585.html

Bottom line SM lost 2 millions dollars in the last quart, 12 million in the YTD.

Razor42 posted at 10:55PM Wed, 18 November 2015 - #4239438

All indicators are showing SM is verging on Bankruptcy. Their stock price has plummeted from 17$ 5 years ago to .70c today. Their future is rated as uncertain by most investor advisors. So unfortunately the scenario you're describing doesn't really stack up at that end either I'm afraid.

If SM goes under, it's not because of Poser. Poser is a small part of their business. Their main business is mobile networking and stuff like that.

Anyways, it seemed your line of thinking was Poser doesn't need this part of the industry, because it's bottomline is healthy but apparently SM's bottom line isn't healthy. And no one truly knows if Posers is or not. I expect the next few months will be telling for Poser. So can SM really afford to narrow Poser's market and long term interests? I think Poser's future is tied to SM, if SM goes down Poser needs to be as viable as possible to attract new investment or it might just end up in a New Mexico Ground fill somewhere.

[Razor42]

I have also in the past made content for both platforms, these days I find one platform far exceeds the other in sales return. So now I develope for one exclusively and the return is higher than ever before when I used to divide my time creating for both.

No points for guessing which is what I'm afraid.

So, we can presume the time you're spending in this forum is just to brag? Why are you wasting your time on us lowly Poser users?

Making genesis compatible with poser has nothing to do with making tools viable for all of us. Nothing is stopping anyone from creating content for either or both platforms. Genesis using DQ rigging means nothing in the larger scope of things beyond marketing hype. You still have to buy the alembic plugin for it to work in other apps. So what are you really benefiting from there? Alembic export is part of Poser 11 Pro. DS and Poser both import and export FBX. And with Poser fusion you can use your poser content in maya max and a few other apps, without having to buy any additional plug-ins or use any special kind of rigging. Fusion for P11 will be out soon.

Razor42 posted at 11:23PM Wed, 18 November 2015 - #4239447

Anyways, it seemed your line of thinking was Poser doesn't need this part of the industry, because it's bottomline is healthy but apparently SM's bottom line isn't healthy.

Poser's bottom line could be healthy even if SM's isn't. If SM goes under, I imagine another company will buy Poser. It's not like we haven't seen it before.

And no one truly knows if Posers is or not. I expect the next few months will be telling for Poser. So can SM really afford to narrow Poser's market and long term interests? I think Poser's future is tied to SM, if SM goes down Poser needs to be as viable as possible to attract new investment or it might just end up in a New Mexico Ground fill somewhere.

Or...can SM really afford to cater to a small minority of Poser users when they need cash elsewhere?

Like I said, if SM goes down, it will be sold off, in pieces or as a whole. If it's profitable, someone will buy it. If it's not, DAZ compatibility won't save it.

Heck, maybe DAZ will buy it. They can make it Genesis compatible, and start giving it away for free!

randym77 posted at 9:59PM Wed, 18 November 2015 - #4239440

Razor42 posted at 10:45PM Wed, 18 November 2015 - #4239436

Hmm, can I please direct you to have a look here.

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/www.renderosity.com

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/www.runtimedna.com

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/www.smithmicro.com

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/www.contentparadise.com

Compared with:

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/www.daz3d.com

It seems you're relying on intuition and past experience to draw your conclusions. I know statistics are not absolute but this is just one indicator among many of a trend in the market.

I don't think that means anything. Well, it does to content creators, and to DAZ, but not necessarily to SM.

Poser is supposed to be a complete package, and I suspect most users do not buy content for it. They just use what comes with it. SM doesn't care if they buy content or not, because their profit is from selling the software, not the content.

And if you're doing a workplace safety video, or instructions for a Wal-Mart checkout, or a medical diagram...what do you need to buy? The clothing, hair, etc. that comes with Poser is enough. (I've noticed a lot of the Poser guys are bald in these productions. Hair is still a pain, after all these years.)

Indeed. The site statistics show that there are a lot of users. But how many of them are like the members posting in this very thread? I guarantee that very few users who log in to Daz3d or Renderosity buy content every single time they visit. Many of those visits are gallery and forum posts, and people complaining that their coupon only gave them a 70 cent rather than an 85 cent discount.

But consider a corporate or educational environment in which software may be purchased for 50 workstations -- without anyone ever actually visiting the Smith Micro website.

Site visits don't tell us anything about how Poser itself is selling. But I agree that they may be a decent indication of how third party Poser content is selling among those who rely on mass marketplaces to get customers (which, as AS points out, doesn't cover every Poser content creator, by far).

In any case, I still don't get why Daz users who neither use Poser, nor help Poser users get Genesis 1 or 2 working are even posting in this forum. As I said somewhere else, I get why correcting inaccuracies is important, but this thread is almost entirely speculation based on opinion. Why on earth would a Daz user care about that? Is the Daz forum here not active enough? Don't you have some renders in Iray to do? Surely you didn't buy all that Genesis 3 stuff just so you could bash Smith Micro in the Poser forum.

Edit: As for Poser users who want to use Genesis 3, I guess we'll have a repeat of the same bloody argument with every single new generation of Daz figures and every single new Poser release.

Or we could ask ourselves whether Poser native plus Genesis 1 and 2, which do work (to varying degrees, depending on how much work you want to do) and can even work natively in Poser without the DSON importer, aren't, in fact, sufficient for our actual needs. I'm fairly sure that a Python script could be written to make the process only take a few clicks -- for those willing to export assets out of DS. But would anyone buy it when the addiction to front page content is so enormous?

CrystalGames posted at 5:12PM Thu, 19 November 2015 - #4239448

So, we can presume the time you're spending in this forum is just to brag? Why are you wasting your time on us lowly Poser users?

Meh, sorry this is a to us and them type of comment. Not worth taking seriously to respond to. Please try to be constructive it will benefit us all and makes a much healthier forum environment.

AmbientShade posted at 5:14PM Thu, 19 November 2015 - #4239449

Making genesis compatible with poser has nothing to do with making tools viable for all of us. Nothing is stopping anyone from creating content for either or both platforms. Genesis using DQ rigging means nothing in the larger scope of things beyond marketing hype. You still have to buy the alembic plugin for it to work in other apps. So what are you really benefiting from there? Alembic export is part of Poser 11 Pro. DS and Poser both import and export FBX. And with Poser fusion you can use your poser content in maya max and a few other apps, without having to buy any additional plug-ins or use any special kind of rigging. Fusion for P11 will be out soon.

While this is all very true. The viability has more to do with the broader functionality of a program, when a program has more functionality often the result is an increase in market share and stronger investment in the platform, which means higher returns for development, which leads to growth. In effect more Poser users mean more viability, fewer is less viable. Fragmentation of the user base also severely debilitates viability of a 3rd party product. The only people purchasing Pauline base products are Early adopters of Poser 11 which I would expect is a small portion of Posers greater market share. Does this affect SM? Well obviously not directly, but it may in the long term decrease their user base if content support declines dramatically. Can you please explain how Poser users wouldn't benefit from having access to a broader product range including the Genesis characters? Or why content creators wouldn't benefit from greater cross platform compatibility. Export tools are awesome but the thing that is to be exported is the key. I'm seeing Genesis 3 being ported over to a range of 3D suites. Do you expect the same for Pauline and Paul? Honestly if you don't value a content market, there is no issue for you in the trend. If you value 3rd party content you may need to learn fast to make your own. I can't see movie studio's, safety video makers being that keen to invest that much time as well as their money.

randym77 posted at 5:20PM Thu, 19 November 2015 - #4239451

Or...can SM really afford to cater to a small minority of Poser users when they need cash elsewhere?

Like I said, if SM goes down, it will be sold off, in pieces or as a whole. If it's profitable, someone will buy it. If it's not, DAZ compatibility won't save it.

Heck, maybe DAZ will buy it. They can make it Genesis compatible, and start giving it away for free!

It's not about catering to a small minority, it's pretty clear that DS is or is becoming the market leader. Poser isn't on the edge of losing a small market share it's on the edge of losing the "market". This has begun by it's market share of the content market deflating rapidly. If Poser gets sold off, sure it may land in fertile hands, or it may be closeted as competition or just left to ring out the last few dollars from the faithful Poser users out there. I think it's much easier to make a case for a liquidated product base to face a retrograde future rather than they will usually land on their feet. As I said the chances of it landing on it's feet will be dependent on its current market share and profitability. Which we honestly don't know the exact statistics.

moriador posted at 5:24PM Thu, 19 November 2015 - #4239453

Indeed. The site statistics show that there are a lot of users. But how many of them are like the members posting in this very thread? I guarantee that very few users who log in to Daz3d or Renderosity buy content every single time they visit. Many of those visits are gallery and forum posts, and people complaining that their coupon only gave them a 70 cent rather than an 85 cent discount.

Your right the site statistic are not conclusive by any means they are indicative of trends, compiled trends with other data offer insights into the future prospects. The difference between speculation and educated guess is data and research. Some other factors to consider are the galleries, the marketplaces what's new, Forum usage, which all offer their own small pieces of contributive data. All of these are small pieces that form a much a larger picture. The most conclusive data I have available is my own sales data and what I hear from others directly impacted in the industry (which are are no short supply currently).

But consider a corporate or educational environment in which software may be purchased for 50 workstations -- without anyone ever actually visiting the Smith Micro website.

Sure but also consider saturation of markets where there are free options available in direct competition. Any suggestion on volumes here are pure speculation. You could say there are millions of licenses purchased in this manner or very few depending on which way you want the outcome to slant. So it best to discard it unless there is some actual data available somewhere?

Site visits don't tell us anything about how Poser itself is selling. But I agree that they may be a decent indication of how third party Poser content is selling among those who rely on mass marketplaces to get customers (which, as AS points out, doesn't cover every Poser content creator, by far).

As a content creator and as we are in a content marketplace, this makes the data relevant to what we are talking about and the OP.

In any case, I still don't get why Daz users who neither use Poser, nor help Poser users get Genesis 1 or 2 working are even posting in this forum. As I said somewhere else, I get why correcting inaccuracies is important, but this thread is almost entirely speculation based on opinion. Why on earth would a Daz user care about that? Is the Daz forum here not active enough? Don't you have some renders in Iray to do? Surely you didn't buy all that Genesis 3 stuff just so you could bash Smith Micro in the Poser forum.

Again this is very divisive type language, very us and them. DS and Poser are tools not tribes. Your speculating that I don't have Poser or use Poser. Even when I have actually stated here that I have made content for Poser in the past. Again I ask if you want to comment, please try to make it constructive if you can. Preferring one tool doesn't mean you don't care or don't need to know about the other tools available and their viability. You're also assuming that I'm not using Poser because of some form of prejudice and not because market factors are affecting my livelihood and my decisions to be competitive in the sector. And Iray is rendering as I type (quite beautifully may i add :P).

Edit: As for Poser users who want to use Genesis 3, I guess we'll have a repeat of the same bloody argument with every single new generation of Daz figures and every single new Poser release.

No, with current trends eventually the markets will separate so radically that the common ground between these apps will slowly dissolve. Again looking at the last part of your comment if these "bloody arguments" are so frustrating and terrible for you to bare, why did you click on a thread titled "Poser 11 improve DAZ product handling?" did you expect to find something else in the thread? Surely it can't be that hard not to click on a link and harass the people who do want to further discuss the issue?

Or we could ask ourselves whether Poser native plus Genesis 1 and 2, which do work (to varying degrees, depending on how much work you want to do) and can even work natively in Poser without the DSON importer, aren't, in fact, sufficient for our actual needs. I'm fairly sure that a Python script could be written to make the process only take a few clicks -- for those willing to export assets out of DS. But would anyone buy it when the addiction to front page content is so enormous?

Tinkerers paradise: High marks <•> Commercial viability for a 3rd party content market: Unviable or at least unstable

I need a drink... :D

Razor42 -- You're making guesses about the relevance of a set of data about one thing (3rd party Poser content purchases and site visits) to a completely different thing (sale of Poser software). YOU made that connection when you started talking about Poser's bottom line. And as a result, I am merely pointing out that your guesses in this regard are no better than mine, since the actual data we would need isn't available. Only SM knows how many copies of Poser it has sold, and there's nothing in your data that tells us much about that.

I'm not assuming any prejudice on your part other than what you have demonstrated in your posts in this thread. As for myself, since I use both Poser and DS, and spent that last month draining my bank account in the PC Anniversary Sale, I'm not taking an US v THEM stance when it comes to Poser and Daz.

_The only US v THEM stance I am taking is forum members who want useful threads VS people who just seem to want to argue pointlessly. _ And if you believe that pertains to you, fair enough.

I don't care what software you used in the past, if you're not here to help people use Poser or get help using Poser, what are you here for? Information about market viability? Why? AFAICT, you've already made up your mind about that. You're not looking for information; you're asserting your own opinions. But why?

Edit: By the way, I have some idea of why Zev0 is here, and he and M3M have been a truly great source of help and information. So I certainly don't subscribe to the idea that the Poser forum is only for totally loyal Poser fanatics at all.

moriador posted at 6:22PM Thu, 19 November 2015 - #4239458

Razor42 -- You're making guesses about the relevance of a set of data about one thing (3rd party Poser content purchases and site visits) to a completely different thing (sale of Poser software). YOU made that connection when you started talking about Poser's bottom line. And as a result, I am merely pointing out that your guesses in this regard are no better than mine, since the actual data we would need isn't available. Only SM knows how many copies of Poser it has sold, and there's nothing in your data that tells us much about that.

I'm not assuming any prejudice on your part other than what you have demonstrated in your posts in this thread. As for myself, since I use both Poser and DS, and spent that last month draining my bank account in the PC Anniversary Sale, I'm not taking an US v THEM stance when it comes to Poser and Daz.

_The only US v THEM stance I am taking is forum members who want useful threads VS people who just seem to want to argue pointlessly. _

I don't care what software you used in the past, if you're not here to help people use Poser or get help using Poser, what are you here for?

Well to discuss Poser in a free and friendly environment free from personal harassment or bullying, no matter the opinion voiced or by whom as long as the poster respects the forum TOS. May I ask what you're here for, in a thread titled "Poser 11 improve DAZ product handling?" telling people that they don't belong here or have a right to discuss things because your tired of hearing it? Again if you don't like the subject what are you doing here in this thread?