Razor42 posted at 9:15PM Thu, 28 January 2016 - #4251893

So I believe the lost in revenue because of Piracy is not as great as I am being told by other that sell on that site as well.. like it is in the music industry.

There are many other impacts beyond purely monetary that need to be considered.

I was reading on a somewhat dodgy site, people who believe piracy is a freedom of information activity. Seeing themselves as community based free thinkers and digital revolutionaries. On this thread they had taken to speculating about 'What if piracy was legalised globally?'. One of the first things they all agreed on is, it would bring an end to most of the existing media structures. When asked 'Well, where will new content and media come from when these media giants fall?' The answer was immediately put forward, well because the pirates are so creative and morally sound in motivation they will create the new media themselves. Of course it will all be opensource and free to everyone. I thought 'Wow, that's great pirates are willing to work for free, with 0 income for the betterment of mankind to bring us all media content'. I guess they can just depend on someone else to feed, shelter, clothe and protect them as they will be in effect 'media monks'.

In reality, it's purely a delusion being put forward to justify their actions as not only a destructive one, and it also helps to ease their conscious. Most people engaged in this kind of behaviour are quite misinformed about it's impact and do work diligently to create that margin of doubt of it being a victimless crime. It actually made me think of what the world would be like where media was nothing more than a global 'Please be kind rewind' project. Sounds pretty sad to me.

You just hit the nail on the head as to why the various protection schemes actually do little to increase sales. Many, if not most, of the people involved in "pirate" activities simply don't view the world the way you (or I) do, and have a different value system. The crackers/hackers do it for social status, years ago they often made sure their "ID" was included with the "package". I would guess it is still that way. While many of the users of their "products" would do without product "X", before paying for it. Other users will typically be people who simply can not afford to buy the retail version. Neither one of these groups will buy the products. So the few people who don't fit these two major groups, might buy the product. So for what DAZ is doing, the big question is will the few people who might now buy their encrypted content offset the number of people who now won't buy encrypted content? Of course this all assumes that the content isn't cracked and put up on pirate sites anyway. If cracked versions are redistributed, then really all that has happened is lost sales from people who won't buy the encrypted content, or that are much more selective and by less content due to encryption

It's important to remember that the "pirates" and their "customers" do not see the world the same way other people do.

Of course this is just my opinion.

Well what you're saying has a lot of truth. There are a few things you may not be considering though.

Growth in anything is generally accelerated by a number of conditions. Conducive environment being the major factor. You could argue that piracy only exists because the environment is conducive to the practices used. So in an environment where piracy is possible and easy you can only expect to see more piracy. And as a pirate thinks different as we discussed, once they have come to accept that they can access this content for free, with almost 0 effort or risk, it is unlikely they will ever decide, encrypted or not, to rejoin the legitimate customer base.

That said by reducing the conduciveness of the environment in this case, the ease of piracy. You may have an impact on the growth of piracy as an expanding user base. Meaning that if the means to acquire a product is harder through illegitimate means an individual may not enter into piracy at all and accept that access is easily grant by a legitimate purchase. Financial hardship is another conducive factor to piracy but generally not the largest one.

An environment that allows piracy to thrive is in a way perpetuating the practice. To do nothing is to actively allow the practice of copyright infringement to continue to grow and expand it's own user base and community.

So for what DAZ is doing, the big question is will the few people who might now buy their encrypted content offset the number of people who now won't buy encrypted content?

The answer to this is, well it's hard to judge accurately, but you could say that reducing the accessibility of illegal content will damage the expansion of piracy as a practice. Imagine if when you typed into google and the first 300 hits were to torrent sites with illegal content. And not legitimate sites. The likelihood of any individual at any given time to visit one of these sites and perhaps try a few illegal downloads would be greater. Does google removing these threads stop piracy? No, but it does mitigate people's access to pirated content to a certain degree. In a similar way that Daz encryption mitigates casual pirating. One thing is for certain though continued free access to pirate material will only result in more piracy.

No doubt the new encryption will curtail some of the casual illegal sharing among friends/family. However, if the crackers (meaning those that just love to crack software protection schemes) see this as someone throwing down the gauntlet, and worthy of their time, then the once encrypted content will show up just like the current un-encrypted content, either being fully un-encrypted, or with a simple way to install the encrypted content and have it fully functional on any computer. If this happens, then what will the real benefit to curtail real pirating be (not casual sharing)?

Sure, those that once shared the content casually (the friends and family plan), can no longer do that, so they will either decide to purchase their own (if they can), they will go without, or they will now be visiting the pirate sites because they are mad at DAZ. For the other consumers of pirated content/software, they will just have to wait until the illegal version shows up for download. Once the cracker understands how it is encrypted, the time to wait for the cracked version to show up will probably be minimal at best. Of course, they may feel that the stuff from DAZ isn't worth their time to crack, because it's monetary value is low, and may not have the status value they want.

Encrypted content will reduce sharing of content via the "friends and family plan", but it will take a while to learn if it stops other pirating or not. It will also take a bit of time for DAZ to get any sort of real understanding if and/or how this will/has impacted their sales.

For me personally, DAZ Connect only, or encrypted only content carries a lower overall value index. First and foremost, it is not directly usable in Carrara (or Poser). Second, I prefer to not have software or content that has any sort of protection scheme, simply because of inconveniences that are often associated with the protection schemes, which also may at some point for unforeseen reasons include loss of use of the product. I'm not saying with the right item I won't purchase encrypted content, but it is devalued because of the encryption, or being connect only. For example, I really, really like Lynsey for Genesis 3, but because she is encrypted I chose to pass on her (and spending $49 dollars to get her free was a no go too). In fact, there hasn't been one encrypted item yet that I would buy. Lynsey was the closest to getting my money, but the value, because of encryption, simply wasn't there for me. Your mileage may vary.

That was hard going. Well done Ivy, Razor & DustRider

No doubt the new encryption will curtail some of the casual illegal sharing among friends/family. However, if the crackers (meaning those that just love to crack software protection schemes) see this as someone throwing down the gauntlet, and worthy of their time, then the once encrypted content will show up just like the current un-encrypted content, either being fully un-encrypted, or with a simple way to install the encrypted content and have it fully functional on any computer. If this happens, then what will the real benefit to curtail real pirating be (not casual sharing)?

I honestly have trouble getting my ahead around this type of theory. There hasn't been a physical lock invented that 100% works every time, a Safe designed that will keep everyone out forever. All of these are security devices that mitigate. Have you ever heard anyone saying they are worthless because they are not 100% effective all of the time? I also think people have an inflated rating of the average pirates ability to hack or crack anything more difficult than a pack of Doritos. Most piracy is the form of exploiting a loophole. In existing content the loophole is the .zip format which has 0 protection.

A lot what happens if/when Daz 3D product encryption is hacked/cracked is pure speculation. As a lot would depend on the method. Can you use a cracked product on any version of DS? Will you need a cracked version of DS? Can you use a cracked version of DS with the store and not have the store know that its cracked. If you are using a cracked version what happens with upgrades, WIll your cracked version be dependent on a small group that can release cracked product etc? The only pirated encrypted product I have seen so far used an export method to circumvent the encryption and was rather sloppily done.

Plus cracked version of a pirated item are at least 5 times as risky, because the potential for a skilled black hat to embed malicious code is far greater than in a straightforward .zip of content that you can scan easily. Want to crack DS encryption? Just run this little program make sure to turn of your security setting first so Daz isn't alerted....

Casual piracy goes beyond friends and family sharing. It refers to an unskilled pirate picking up a .zip and uploading it to a torrent site with no actual barriers to impede them.

Content compatibility in my eyes is the biggest issue at the moment with encryption, alongside of continued access to paid for legitimate content in the long term. Hopefully we will see both of these addressed in the future by Daz, I would expect at least Carrara to see some love for the encrypted format in the future. As far as Poser compat goes, the issue goes well beyond encryption with the divide between the two apps growing with each incremental update.

LPR001 posted at 7:36PM Fri, 29 January 2016 - #4251922

That was hard going. Well done Ivy, Razor & DustRider

Just don't call me Razon ;)

I will try but I have a library of names I will use up first I assure you.

Razor42 posted at 9:58AM Fri, 29 January 2016 - #4251926

LPR001 posted at 7:36PM Fri, 29 January 2016 - #4251922

That was hard going. Well done Ivy, Razor & DustRider

Just don't call me Razon ;)

would Razin be acceptable ? J/k :)

LPR001 posted at 11:00AM Fri, 29 January 2016 - #4251922

That was hard going. Well done Ivy, Razor & DustRider

No problem Johnny! Isn't that the way adult discussions are supposed to work?

Razor42 - the pirates won't crack the product DRM - they will bypass the encryption in Daz Studio.

I love you guys, but vendors are delusional in thinking that piracy = lost sales. The people who download pirated content never had any intention of paying for the products, at ANY price.

It is obvious that DAZ's long-term goal is customer lock-in with a subscription model and/or renting 3d assets. The people that made DAZ great (and Steve Kondris) no longer work at DAZ. The new owners are looking for steady income streams - which CAN NOT be done with DAZ's current sales "structure". This is simple business economics.

Coding-wise, it is a very short step from using DRM content to requiring DRM content. Anyone want to take bets on the next version of genesis (24 months out) being "DAZ-Connect"-only?

Razor42 posted at 1:02PM Fri, 29 January 2016 - #4251925

No doubt the new encryption will curtail some of the casual illegal sharing among friends/family. However, if the crackers (meaning those that just love to crack software protection schemes) see this as someone throwing down the gauntlet, and worthy of their time, then the once encrypted content will show up just like the current un-encrypted content, either being fully un-encrypted, or with a simple way to install the encrypted content and have it fully functional on any computer. If this happens, then what will the real benefit to curtail real pirating be (not casual sharing)?

I honestly have trouble getting my ahead around this type of theory. There hasn't been a physical lock invented that 100% works every time, a Safe designed that will keep everyone out forever. All of these are security devices that mitigate. Have you ever heard anyone saying they are worthless because they are not 100% effective all of the time? I also think people have an inflated rating of the average pirates ability to hack or crack anything more difficult than a pack of Doritos. Most piracy is the form of exploiting a loophole. In existing content the loophole is the .zip format which has 0 protection.

A lot what happens if/when Daz 3D product encryption is hacked/cracked is pure speculation. As a lot would depend on the method. Can you use a cracked product on any version of DS? Will you need a cracked version of DS? Can you use a cracked version of DS with the store and not have the store know that its cracked. If you are using a cracked version what happens with upgrades, WIll your cracked version be dependent on a small group that can release cracked product etc? The only pirated encrypted product I have seen so far used an export method to circumvent the encryption and was rather sloppily done.

Plus cracked version of a pirated item are at least 5 times as risky, because the potential for a skilled black hat to embed malicious code is far greater than in a straightforward .zip of content that you can scan easily. Want to crack DS encryption? Just run this little program make sure to turn of your security setting first so Daz isn't alerted....

Casual piracy goes beyond friends and family sharing. It refers to an unskilled pirate picking up a .zip and uploading it to a torrent site with no actual barriers to impede them.

Content compatibility in my eyes is the biggest issue at the moment with encryption, alongside of continued access to paid for legitimate content in the long term. Hopefully we will see both of these addressed in the future by Daz, I would expect at least Carrara to see some love for the encrypted format in the future. As far as Poser compat goes, the issue goes well beyond encryption with the divide between the two apps growing with each incremental update.

I think there may be a bit of difference between how you and I define some of the terms we are using, which is causing some of our incongruities. Anyway, to me casual refers to a very low risk activity, which would be the friends and family plan. Once someone illegally puts something on a torrent, then there is some higher level of risk (and intent) involved, which indicates either the person doing so has an issue with DAZ, the PA, or just believes that everything should be free to everyone. For lack of a better term I'll just call this level of sharing/pirating the Robin Hood Syndrome (RHS).

So, for illegal casual sharing, and RHS, encryption will definitely stop most, if not all of it. Simple export/import won't work either (due to the loss of quality that you mentioned), so truly cracking the encryption would have to come from more skilled individuals. Before I move on the the higher level, I am faced with the question, just how many of these people engaging in illegal casual sharing or RHS sharing will actually buy the products if they are never cracked? There are not good statistics to rely on here, just personal views, experiences, and instinct which ultimately forms our own opinions. My opinion is that the vast majority of the people involved in RHS downloading are not regular DAZ customers, may not have ever purchased anything from DAZ, and are unlikely to start now. As you noted from your brief trip to the dark side, many of these people feel it is their right to receive digital goods for free. I feel it is highly unlikely that they will purchase anything from DAZ if they can't get it for free, because that is counter to their world view (why people like this are often referred to as being a part of a counter culture).

I surmise from some of your statements above, that you feel the people downloading content from torrent sites are also paying DAZ customers. If this is true, then my assumptions are obviously wrong. However, even the comments you noted from your visit to the darker side seem to counter this view that the down-loaders are also customers (but no doubt some of the distributors are customers). If sales increase dramatically for encrypted content, then obviously my assessment of the situation is completely wrong.

The other question is will the crackers be interested in cracking the content and/or DS if needed. It really depends on if they see it as a worthy and worth while challenge. If a cracked version of DS would be required in addition to the content, many of the downsides you noted, such as no upgrades to DS, I would think simply don't apply to this counter culture. If they have a working version, that is really all that matters. They can wait until a new cracked version comes out if there are any new major features. Otherwise, they are already OK with the fact that they won't get continual bug fixes, after all, what do they expect for "free"??? There is one area though that we will simply have to agree to disagree. There is no doubt what so ever in my mind that if an experienced cracker decides to take on Encrypted DAZ content, and if needed, DS too, they will be able to keep the flow of perfectly usable DS content going. For the last 30 years, and probably longer, as far as I know, there has not been one commercial software protection scheme that has not been fully compromised when a dedicated cracker (or crackers) has taken on the task (I did spend some time as a part of my job on the dark side of the web years ago). Keep in mind their goal is to develop a crack that will provide everyone with full functionality. Maybe DAZ has developed a scheme that is more difficult to crack than anything else that has ever been used, but I honestly doubt it. These guys/gals who do the cracking are geniuses (seriously, those who have been caught typically have very impressive IQ's), and take real pride in the fact that they outsmarted the protection scheme creators (who are also typically really smart).

To be honest though, I doubt DAZ content will have the needed clout to even show up on the radar screen of the real crackers. The software is free, the content is inexpensive, so the status points for cracking the encryption are probably pretty low. However, it may still garner the interest of someone, and if it does, I have little doubt that it will be fully compromised, and once it is, the turn around from new release at DAZ to release on pirate sites will be quite short. Also, keep in mind I'm not talking about what you call the average pirate, the people who just upload and share files illegally(i.e. DAZ/Poser stuff, music, videos, etc.) are not in the same 'class", and do not have the skill set needed to crack the protection schemes. Again, only time will tell what will happen.

ssgbryan posted at 3:55PM Fri, 29 January 2016 - #4252003

Razor42 - the pirates won't crack the product DRM - they will bypass the encryption in Daz Studio.

I love you guys, but vendors are delusional in thinking that piracy = lost sales. The people who download pirated content never had any intention of paying for the products, at ANY price.

However, not doing anything isn't the answer. Really there has to be a compromise between ease of use and the protection of assets. A lot of good vendors have left the industry because nothing was done to protect their work, and that is more of a loss than anything else.

It is obvious that DAZ's long-term goal is customer lock-in with a subscription model and/or renting 3d assets.

How would that work when most of the products in are vendor owned? DAZ, rendo, and RDNA are brokerages who deal with multiple vendors with multiple products with multiple prices. Products have one or more owners with different partner splits. It would be a nightmare to set up and maintain and is basically unworkable unless they plan to buy out every single product in the store. A brokerage is not like a music service where they deal with a few owners of the content for their libraries, so it's highly doubtful they could pull off any type of subscription service. They get their money from their content sales, that's why the application is free and unlocked so that anyone can create DS content for support of their base figures for their own use, provide freebies, or broker anywhere including DAZ. Having lots of content available is why a lock out of anyone wouldn't make sense.

The people that made DAZ great (and Steve Kondris) no longer work at DAZ.

There are some people that would strongly disagree. DAZ is in a MUCH better financial state than with the old management. Many vendors will tell you their incomes increased under the new management.

The new owners are looking for steady income streams - which CAN NOT be done with DAZ's current sales "structure". This is simple business economics.

Can you prove that? DAZ has shown that they can add new features including iray, get more customers, and offer their program for free because of their current sale structure. And they've done that for years. They can prove that with their sales and adoption of their content.

Coding-wise, it is a very short step from using DRM content to requiring DRM content. Anyone want to take bets on the next version of genesis (24 months out) being "DAZ-Connect"-only?

Connect isn't solely encryption so if it's easier for new users to install and use the content, I don't see that as a bad thing. Besides all the genesis content is being offered as DAZ connect now.

ssgbryan posted at 4:12PM Fri, 29 January 2016 - #4252003

Razor42 - the pirates won't crack the product DRM - they will bypass the encryption in Daz Studio.

I love you guys, but vendors are delusional in thinking that piracy = lost sales. The people who download pirated content never had any intention of paying for the products, at ANY price.

It is obvious that DAZ's long-term goal is customer lock-in with a subscription model and/or renting 3d assets. The people that made DAZ great (and Steve Kondris) no longer work at DAZ. The new owners are looking for steady income streams - which CAN NOT be done with DAZ's current sales "structure". This is simple business economics.

Coding-wise, it is a very short step from using DRM content to requiring DRM content. Anyone want to take bets on the next version of genesis (24 months out) being "DAZ-Connect"-only?

Thanks for saying what I have been thinking Sarge

I don't care how many times I try to tell people, Pirates DONT plan on buying your stuff! Actually, MOST pirates of 3D stuff, that I have talked to online, at least, DONT even USE the stuff they pirate!

I bought a hard drive off a guy a little while ago. It was Filled to bursting with Pirated stuff. I deleted a bunch of it, as I really couldn't use it. TONS of Music Top 40 rubbish and rap, plus software I will never use and have no need of. The guy hadn't even accessed most of the files, nor did he even know how to use the software.

I'm NOT advocating piracy, but 1 pirated download does NOT equal 1 lost sale.

I am an artist and don't like to see my stuff stolen, but spending money and energy to prevent theft from people I was NEVER going to make any money from is pointless.

@Razor - I just forgot to say thanks for the great discussion. It has been great for me to help try to understand your point of view, and the reasoning behind it. I hope I have been able to convey information that is equally helpful on your end.

@Dustrider Likewise mate, I guess what a lot of people need to appreciate, myself included, is we do live in a world of greys and nothing is really just black and white. Somewhere between for and against is likely to the compromise that works for most.

ssgbryan posted at 11:23AM Sat, 30 January 2016 - #4252003

Razor42 - the pirates won't crack the product DRM - they will bypass the encryption in Daz Studio.

I love you guys, but vendors are delusional in thinking that piracy = lost sales. The people who download pirated content never had any intention of paying for the products, at ANY price.

It is obvious that DAZ's long-term goal is customer lock-in with a subscription model and/or renting 3d assets. The people that made DAZ great (and Steve Kondris) no longer work at DAZ. The new owners are looking for steady income streams - which CAN NOT be done with DAZ's current sales "structure". This is simple business economics.

Coding-wise, it is a very short step from using DRM content to requiring DRM content. Anyone want to take bets on the next version of genesis (24 months out) being "DAZ-Connect"-only?

Well thanks for your thoughts on the subject ssgbryan,

The funny thing is a good 75% of my comments on this thread relate to the fact that piracy is more than just a monetary loss or lost sales.

Bypassing the encryption is time consuming and as about as efficient for the end receiver as watching the new star wars movie that someone recorded on their mobile phone in the back row of a cinema while eating a bucket of popcorn. As important as what is there, is what is not there.

It is obvious that DAZ's long-term goal is customer lock-in with a subscription model and/or renting 3d assets.

Well that may be obvious to yourself, but I've never actually seen a business model fleshed out for this speculation, that would give any indication that it would be advantageous for Daz 3D to adopt it. But since it's pure speculation I guess that's just a a minor detail. May, may not, Que sera. But in my own opinion it's up there with the likelihood of the construction of a Death Star by Daz3D.

Likewise with the coding wise scenario. The difference between Mein Kampf and the Bible is just the letters are arranged differently. Both are books, but definitely both don't equate to the same thing in any real consideration.

Also just to clarify Daz Connect isn't Daz Encryption, it's a new version of DIM built into DS. You can use Daz Connect without encrypted files also.

DustRider posted at 3:01PM Sat, 30 January 2016 - #4251994

LPR001 posted at 11:00AM Fri, 29 January 2016 - #4251922

That was hard going. Well done Ivy, Razor & DustRider

No problem Johnny! Isn't that the way adult discussions are supposed to work?

Yes DustRider it is and your posts have always been that way. Once I see comments like RE Daz staff and vendors "Weight their words their paycheck depends on it" in order to bolster one's own opinion I am at times left pondering just how adult some of these discussions really are. Thankfully 99.9% of the members would not even entertain the thought to go down that insulting path and can skim past this without it even being a blip on their radar.

I am impressed with how this discussion is heading now and how it is being handled from both sides of the divide. Truth is it is the same detail members have been trying to relay all along just with a much better delivery, more respect and this does open the door to discussions that will cover far more ground and be beneficial to all.

It is also understandable that typing at 450 wpm with steam coming out the ears will lead to mistakes being made as I have tried it myself. As a moderator I kind of noticed since the announcement there are some unhappy campers and I get it, I really do. If we can achieve a balance somewhere between "Gone With The Wind" and "Terminator" I think we would be onto something.

Thank you all :-)

I see a lot of folks defending DAZ, that is fine. But there is absolutely no reason what so ever to add DAZ controlled encryption to model you have purchased and placed on your hard drive unless they intend on forcing you to pay repeatedly to use the model..you purchased. period That is why they do that

good news then is, I will be spending money here and not there.

Hi father,

I'm not sure how they can force you or anyone to pay repeatedly for anything without changing the EULA. I suspect if they were to change the EULA to allow what you're suggesting, you wouldn't be the only one to find somewhere else to purchase their content. In fact Daz have already announced that a free decrypter utility would be held with an Escrow company to be released at the time of their demise "or is unwilling to continue offering this as a free service" and are in the process of updating the EULA to reflect that.

But of course you are free to spend your money wherever it brings you the most joy. :)

You miss the point, you only encrypt an item ON their hard drive if you intend on controlling it's use and charging a subscription for it's use. There is no other reason to do it. and they say well the EULA stops it, no the company can change the EULA at will. it is not binding.

father1776 posted at 9:09PM Sun, 31 January 2016 - #4252442

You miss the point, you only encrypt an item ON their hard drive if you intend on controlling it's use and charging a subscription for it's use. There is no other reason to do it. and they say well the EULA stops it, no the company can change the EULA at will. it is not binding.

Except there's not encrypting on the hard drive, it unencrypts it so you can use it in the program. And once you get it on your machine, it's there. Also since it's a brokerage that sells other vendors' products not their own, it would be practically impossible to offer subscription services when you have products owned by multiple vendors with different percentages of payouts, bundles, etc. But these arguments have been disputed now hundreds of times; I think people are spending more time jumping to conclusions and being upset when they don't truly understand how everything, including brokerages, work.

You miss the point, you only encrypt an item ON their hard drive if you intend on controlling it's use and charging a subscription for it's use. There is no other reason to do it. and they say well the EULA stops it, no the company can change the EULA at will. it is not binding.

Actually there are a few issues with this statement.

Companies can not change the terms of sale after a sale retroactively. So what that means is that if you purchase an item under a specific licensing agreement. Any changes to the licence agreement only apply to new items sold under the new agreement. An EULA is in effect a contract that is agreed on by both parties and is protected by law. So in effect an End User License Agreement is binding. (1) (2)

You miss the point, you only encrypt an item ON their hard drive if you intend on controlling its use and charging a subscription for it's use.

This is speculation and I can point to dozens of incidences of encryption that haven't led to the situation you're describing. Like the fact that this webpage is using encryption on your hard drive. Even in a content scenario like games on Steam. (3)

I feel you may have missed the point, if you purchase an encrypted product from Daz 3D you will have made a contract with Daz 3D under the EULA for it's usage, changing the terms after the fact to retroactive purchases would leave them open to legal recourse. Any new Eula conditions are not valid until you agree to them. The EULA currently in place does not allow for the situation you are describing.

What your suggesting is the equivalent to Apple saying you know all those $1.99 song you bought? We decided that we are going to change our terms and now charge you $4.99 for each one retroactively, you have bought 1500 songs in the past. So here is your bill for $4500 dollars.

It's not only unethical it would be a breach of contract. (4)

I don't see how DAZ's goal can be vendor lock in. It is chiefly a brokerage for other vendors to start with. Are they trying to give their PA's a leg up on others? Pretty obviously since that's what they've been doing for a while. But that's a whole lot different from trying to lock down their ecosystem.

I take their statements at face value. Of course there is going to be connect only content, what would be the point of the whole goat-dance anyway? But at this point, in February all they've put out are trial balloons - the vast majority of new content is still DIM, and what they've sold as connect only has either been given away, or sold at next to nothing.

In hindsight what they probably should have done is implement connect without the DRM to get people used to it, then introduced the DRM later down the road. As it stands, the connect roll out is compromised even if they drop the encryption.

In any case, I'm certainly not through with using DAZ, I like it. I am on the fence about encrypted products, but as long as a steady stream of encrypted comes out I'll deal with that issue later. So those of you with the "sky is falling" complex, please, it is getting old. If you don't want encrypted content, don't buy it. That really is the only thing that will effect the situation.

diogenese19348 posted at 4:00PM Tue, 02 February 2016 - #4252747

So those of you with the "sky is falling" complex, please, it is getting old. If you don't want encrypted content, don't buy it. That really is the only thing that will effect the situation.

What is getting old is people saying that the sky isn't falling when clearly it has at least dropped a few yards and continues a downward direction.

It doesn't hurt to keep ones eyes open and pay attention because things don't seem to be getting better.

A friend of mine told me that same rot back when I said our local market is collapsing. "It's getting old, it's getting old."

Well, more and more of us aren't working and he's had to sell his nice car for a piece of junk, move out of his nice condo. Now he's writing letters to the senator complaining about the sky that he said wasn't falling a few years back.

My advice is... Go ahead and toss an uninstalled copy of Daz4.9 on the hard drive for safe keeping. Maybe you'll use it, maybe you won't. Don't want encrypted software, don't buy it AND let them know WHY you aren't buying it. We'll all see whether the sky is actually falling or not eventually.

tsarist posted at 3:16PM Tue, 02 February 2016 - #4252770

diogenese19348 posted at 4:00PM Tue, 02 February 2016 - #4252747

So those of you with the "sky is falling" complex, please, it is getting old. If you don't want encrypted content, don't buy it. That really is the only thing that will effect the situation.

What is getting old is people saying that the sky isn't falling when clearly it has at least dropped a few yards and continues a downward direction.

It doesn't hurt to keep ones eyes open and pay attention because things don't seem to be getting better.

A friend of mine told me that same rot back when I said our local market is collapsing. "It's getting old, it's getting old."

Well, more and more of us aren't working and he's had to sell his nice car for a piece of junk, move out of his nice condo. Now he's writing letters to the senator complaining about the sky that he said wasn't falling a few years back.

My advice is... Go ahead and toss an uninstalled copy of Daz4.9 on the hard drive for safe keeping. Maybe you'll use it, maybe you won't. Don't want encrypted software, don't buy it AND let them know WHY you aren't buying it. We'll all see whether the sky is actually falling or not eventually.

Personally I don't think in this case the sky is falling, but that's beside the point. Your suggestions about not buying encrypted software is the same one I was making. You can keep a copy of 4.8 around, I did, but frankly there isn't anything in 4.9 that is a problem as long as you don't use connect. Telling DAZ why you're not buying encrypted doesn't matter, they don't care, they will care if people don't buy it.

My point is that running around saying "the sky is falling" is not going to stop the sky from falling if it is. Make your preparations for it, but don't go annoying everybody else who isn't. If DAZ really has made up their minds to screw everybody, which I don't think they have, how is screaming on the forums going to help? Any more than it did here about another issue.

diogenese19348 posted at 12:16PM Wed, 03 February 2016 - #4252747

I don't see how DAZ's goal can be vendor lock in. It is chiefly a brokerage for other vendors to start with. Are they trying to give their PA's a leg up on others? Pretty obviously since that's what they've been doing for a while. But that's a whole lot different from trying to lock down their ecosystem.

I take their statements at face value. Of course there is going to be connect only content, what would be the point of the whole goat-dance anyway? But at this point, in February all they've put out are trial balloons - the vast majority of new content is still DIM, and what they've sold as connect only has either been given away, or sold at next to nothing.

In hindsight what they probably should have done is implement connect without the DRM to get people used to it, then introduced the DRM later down the road. As it stands, the connect roll out is compromised even if they drop the encryption.

In any case, I'm certainly not through with using DAZ, I like it. I am on the fence about encrypted products, but as long as a steady stream of encrypted comes out I'll deal with that issue later. So those of you with the "sky is falling" complex, please, it is getting old. If you don't want encrypted content, don't buy it. That really is the only thing that will effect the situation.

Amen. Well said...and exactly what I was thinking ;).

Laurie

I just decided all my content will be manually installed. I got tired of DAZ's slipshod way of installing stuff all over the place. I refuse to buy any DAZ Connect only content.

wheatpenny posted at 9:06PM Wed, 03 February 2016 - #4250619

As of right now, Daz is saying that all their previous content will continue to be available as non-encrypted and they have no plans to make new content connect-only, so I have no complaint about the new setup. If that should ever change then complaints will be justified IMO, but until and unless that happens, Daz Connect should present no problems.

From the Daz Connect FAQ, Q #5: "Are All Products Daz Connect Ready"

"New products may begin to be offered through Daz Connect only. This will be determined on a product by product basis."

If one were seeking to completely obliterate all files relating to an old version of DS in order to give 4.9 the very best chance at working as planned out of the box, in addition to uninstalling DS 4.8, DIM and content manager, what else would one need to do.

I thought I had wiped out my old libraries but with the new install I just see all that content only broken.

Tony_Stark posted at 3:41PM Fri, 05 February 2016 - #4252981

I just decided all my content will be manually installed. I got tired of DAZ's slipshod way of installing stuff all over the place. I refuse to buy any DAZ Connect only content.

I don't plan on BUYING any Daz Connect only content, but I did pick up a freebie, that's available this week. I hope they don't start offering more freebies that are Daz Connect only

@Greybro Your comic series looks great. I think I will have to revisit that.

poisinivy posted at 12:33AM Tue, 09 February 2016 - #4251633

Animation was the only reason I loved using daz studio. though it has a some draw backs now. So I'm going to try poser again.. it has more features like physics & built in dynamic controls for animation plus all my older FX content i have still works in poser 2012 so I guessing it will with poser 11 maybe not until i try it..

Though you got to admit , It seems every time Daz comes out with a new software version upgrade, some how they manage break compatible with last copies of their software. even some content. . they pretty must totally broke compatibility with poser and carrera now. I don;t see how that is for the better But some how they do. I dunno how daz 4.9 works with Iclone now either because i don't have iclone . But I assume Daz it broke compatibility with iclone the same as poser & carrera .

I got some great in programming fx tools like Nerds fire & smoke, and Nerds wave & Dusty trail tool. Practical FX etc they all use to work great in Daz still. but not anymore. Also I've been hearing & seeing some really good results with superfly That has intrigued me to try using poser again. I have PP2012 when i get paid this Friday I'm gonna use my 60% upgrade coupon & update to poser 11.

I have used DS Carrara iClone for animation and recently got on board Poser 11. I have to say Poser meets most of my intermediate-pro character animation needs. Poser 11 got serious face lift, still some aging UI issues that can be easily fixed (namely animation UI)

Can't argue with Poser's soft body implementation and many soft cloth options - including finer conforming clothing control. Poser's Bullet 'live' mode is just amazing, especially after the Carrara Bullet battlefield experience!

Poser, even 2 years ago, is way ahead in physics department. Today iClone is close but not there, maybe another year. Carrara is a could've been. DS, who knows.

If DS (5.0?) suddenly grow some Physics muscles... Physics as in soft body on figures + rigid body... live collision... and maybe some volumetric particles!! I will still likely go back to DS as the main tool!

I do miss DS's Animate2 instant NLA clip preview... And definitely the original Puppeteer... DS has great grouping tool and good ZBrush support too which helps!

I want to animate characters... If I had to choose I always choose dynamics, and better UI.

From a content creator perspective... Physics = another potential-rich category of product line!

Hint hint...