I said pretty much the same thing ssgbryan says up above. DAZ will ride this to the end. To me, it looks like they are hurting bad. The only reason they would add encryption is if they're looking for additional sources of revenue. Otherwise, there is no reason to do this. Anyhow, my post at DAZ forums got deleted right away for saying this. Some have said that DAZ will drop DRM if there is no cost-benifit. Incorrect. Other companies have used DRM and they've gone under. In fact, the more they lost revenue, the more they strengthened DRM. And as another user said, DAZ never has a plan B. They will stick to DRM to the end.

Vorlath posted at 9:39AM Tue, 09 February 2016 - #4253979

I said pretty much the same thing ssgbryan says up above. DAZ will ride this to the end. To me, it looks like they are hurting bad. The only reason they would add encryption is if they're looking for additional sources of revenue. Otherwise, there is no reason to do this. Anyhow, my post at DAZ forums got deleted right away for saying this. Some have said that DAZ will drop DRM if there is no cost-benifit. Incorrect. Other companies have used DRM and they've gone under. In fact, the more they lost revenue, the more they strengthened DRM. And as another user said, DAZ never has a plan B. They will stick to DRM to the end.

Speculation without foundation, however firmly stated, is not fact.

RHaseltine posted at 8:26PM Tue, 09 February 2016 - #4254040

Vorlath posted at 9:39AM Tue, 09 February 2016 - #4253979

I said pretty much the same thing ssgbryan says up above. DAZ will ride this to the end. To me, it looks like they are hurting bad. The only reason they would add encryption is if they're looking for additional sources of revenue. Otherwise, there is no reason to do this. Anyhow, my post at DAZ forums got deleted right away for saying this. Some have said that DAZ will drop DRM if there is no cost-benifit. Incorrect. Other companies have used DRM and they've gone under. In fact, the more they lost revenue, the more they strengthened DRM. And as another user said, DAZ never has a plan B. They will stick to DRM to the end.

Speculation without foundation, however firmly stated, is not fact.

I wish it was speculation, but it isn't. I've said 2 things.

1. That a business has invested money into something they hope will become a source of income.
2. That said company will continue to use said "something" to the end.

Neither one is contestable. For the first point to be false, it would mean that business invested in something that provides them zero revenue and causes zero advantage to their users. That's just nonsense. The second point would normally be challenged on the premise that if said company were to lose money, they would re-evaluate their decision. The problem is that what they implemented is something they believe will generate revenue, or worst case, stop free access to their products. So exactly how will they come to the realization that this "something" is actually the culprit or harmful in any way?

So go ahead. Challenge the points I've made. It simply cannot be done in a fashion that makes any logical sense. Now, people making decisions that don't make sense is possible, but that's not something I want to entertain for the time being.

Vorlath posted at 12:04PM Wed, 10 February 2016 - #4254173

RHaseltine posted at 8:26PM Tue, 09 February 2016 - #4254040

Vorlath posted at 9:39AM Tue, 09 February 2016 - #4253979

I said pretty much the same thing ssgbryan says up above. DAZ will ride this to the end. To me, it looks like they are hurting bad. The only reason they would add encryption is if they're looking for additional sources of revenue. Otherwise, there is no reason to do this. Anyhow, my post at DAZ forums got deleted right away for saying this. Some have said that DAZ will drop DRM if there is no cost-benifit. Incorrect. Other companies have used DRM and they've gone under. In fact, the more they lost revenue, the more they strengthened DRM. And as another user said, DAZ never has a plan B. They will stick to DRM to the end.

Speculation without foundation, however firmly stated, is not fact.

I wish it was speculation, but it isn't. I've said 2 things.

1. That a business has invested money into something they hope will become a source of income.
2. That said company will continue to use said "something" to the end.

Neither one is contestable. For the first point to be false, it would mean that business invested in something that provides them zero revenue and causes zero advantage to their users. That's just nonsense. The second point would normally be challenged on the premise that if said company were to lose money, they would re-evaluate their decision. The problem is that what they implemented is something they believe will generate revenue, or worst case, stop free access to their products. So exactly how will they come to the realization that this "something" is actually the culprit or harmful in any way?

So go ahead. Challenge the points I've made. It simply cannot be done in a fashion that makes any logical sense. Now, people making decisions that don't make sense is possible, but that's not something I want to entertain for the time being.

No problem,

1. That a business has invested money into something they hope will become a source of income.

There are numerous reasons a company or business will outlay funds other than just in the interest of direct financial return. Such as safety, compliance, philanthropy, staff morale, security. For example employing lifesavers to patrol a public pool is an expense that is unlikely to see a direct increase in revenue. You could always rely on other pool users to perform any necessary rescues, resuscitations or just generally pose about. This example falls into safety and compliance which will drive many expenses for a business that will not see a direct increase in income in many cases but may help to avoid costly lawsuits. There are many many examples of where a business will invest resources and finances other than just direct financial return. And I think you will find that in this case it relates more to asset security than an expectation of direct revenue increase. Increased security may have follow on revenue effects but not really direct.

1. That said company will continue to use said "something" to the end.

I actually find this statement to be quite a strange one and not sure what the point of it is, it's a little like saying - it will continue to keep raining, until it stops raining. And its issue mainly seems to lay in your acceptance of the first point as an undeniable truth.

History is full of amazing backflips from large companies who have altered or discontinued product lines. In fact there is a concept in marketing known as the product cycle which basically says that every product has a cycle which is Introduction, Growth, maturity and decline. What this means is that a product's viability is measurable by its sales and there is an acceptance that any vibrant business will constantly innovate and change to adapt to market demand or financial pressures.

You have asked : So exactly how will they come to the realization that this "something" is actually the culprit or harmful in any way? The same as any conclusive analysis would reveal the facts necessary for decision making, assessment of data leads to conclusions.

Conclusion in the absence of data is pure speculation...

You made a number of assertions in your first post. For them to be any more than opinion or speculation you would need to back them up with relevant data. The question is do you have any? There is no issue with having an opinion, but suggesting that opinion is fact simply because you believe to be unfortunately doesn't make it so.

None of what you've said about #1 applies to DRM. And in #2, DRM isn't measured in sales. What possible data would they look at? So your entire argument is nothing more than handwaving.

Lol okay I was trying to be polite and point out to you why your post was actually speculation and not a pronouncement of fact.

We can look more factually at your statements if that makes you happier.

DAZ will ride this to the end.

This in fact is your second point. Of course it is true but what that end is and when it will arrive is the point that is unclear.

To me, it looks like they are hurting bad.

You are even declaring this point as speculation by the statement "To me" for it to be accepted as anything more than speculative you would need to provide data to back up the assertion that "they are hurting bad."

The only reason they would add encryption is if they're looking for additional sources of revenue.

There are many reasons to add encryption other than looking for additional revenue sources. The most common and overall usage of encryption relates to security and not to diversifying revenue sources. "The primary purpose of encryption is to protect the confidentiality of digital data stored on computer systems or transmitted via the Internet or other computer networks. " (1)

Some have said that DAZ will drop DRM if there is no cost-benifit. Incorrect.

As I said above all business need to continually adapt and modify their business plans and strategy to stay viable. To suggest that any business is incapable of change is purely opinion. For example Daz 3D has itself instituted many major changes in its own business strategies to maintain or increase its viability for example making Daz Studio Pro a free platform. I honestly can not see any evidence to suggest that Daz 3D would not continue this practice in the future if forces required their action.

Other companies have used DRM and they've gone under.

Sure that is true. But you're neglecting to mention the fact that the majority of the major media and intellectual property retailers actively use DRM today. Take Disney for instance, DIsney helped create DVD DRM and is actively using many forms of DRM in the market today. In fact looking at the largest and most successful companies DRM is in common usage and would almost be easier to create an argument that DRM is an essential aspect to these corporate giants business plans.

And as another user said, DAZ never has a plan B.

Quotations must be verifiably attributed to a reliable source or they are generally considered speculation.

They will stick to DRM to the end.

The end of what? Time and space? Its practical application to a viable product? Until such time as a better security measure can be put in place to add security to media assets?

None of what you've said about #1 applies to DRM. And in #2, DRM isn't measured in sales. What possible data would they look at?

All of what I said applies to DRM, DRM is not a separate intangible force but part of an overall business plan and in this situation is focusing on media asset security. The question isn't what data would they look at, but what questions are they asking. Does an encrypted product have the same takeup rate as a non encrypted product? Has the encryption made the designed impact on the illegal copying and distribution of products? Is there any significant changes in revenue or rate of sales between the two comparable assets? There are plenty of data points available to Daz 3D to measure the impacts or success of the encryption project. The question is where are the data points for the assertions that you have made here? If there is no data or evidence of their factual basis they are simply your own entitled opinion. Maybe we need to ask what were the question you were asking to reach those conclusions also?

@Razor42: As mentioned, none of your points make any logical sense.

DAZ is adding encryption after how many years? And they're doing this for no revenue and no benefit to the end user? This is what you want me to believe? It doesn't add up. And it's really painful to read through.

You've yet to indicate what metric DAZ would consider dropping DRM. You can't say what it is because there is no such metric. You try to mention some made up metrics, but none of those things matter to the decision of adding DRM in the first place if you're arguing against what I've said. DRM isn't going to stop piracy and even if it did, the argument that more people would buy their products is in support of MY argument as to why DAZ is doing this. You mention difference in sales. So you agree that DAZ created this as a source of revenue? If not, then you can't use it on both sides of your argument. You can't in one sentence deny that DAZ did it for a new source of revenue and then turn around and use source of revenue as a metric if DRM is impactful or not. This kind of double talk is not helping. And the irony is that the things you mention are actually in support of the very points I made.

About plan B, please specify when DAZ has ever gone back on a decision and implemented something different? There is no precedent. Without such a precedent, it is you who are speculating about DAZ's behaviour, not me.

And about DAZ sticking with DRM forever. Why would this need explanation? The end is when the company goes out of business. Could be soon, could be a 100 years from now. What is difficult to understand here?

And nothing you've said thus far applies to DRM. It is NOT part of a business plan. DAZ does not provide end products. They provide content creation tools and assets. The notion of adding DRM in such a scenario is completely different to the unrelated examples you've mentioned.

Again, I'll repeat that my two assertions above are incontestable. Only if you reject logic can you attempt to argue against it. This is how you end up with silly arguments that a company will do something for no revenue and no benefit to the end user. There is a PERCEIVED benefit to DAZ. And if you're suggesting it's not money, you're the one who needs to put your best foot forward and show conclusive proof. In business, saying that a company does something for their bottom line is NEVER speculation. It is the rule. Because if they're doing thing with no benefit to revenue, they will find themselves out of business in short order and my being wrong won't matter anyways because it means DAZ did something so stupid (and knowingly so) that it ran them out of business, something I've said I'm not willing to entertain. So in the future, please try to make more coherent arguments as what you've shown so far is not a productive use of anyone's time.

Sigh... So you want me to argue with you about your speculation and opinion?

DAZ is adding encryption after how many years? And they're doing this for no revenue and no benefit to the end user? This is what you want me to believe? It doesn't add up. And it's really painful to read through.

Your generalising... Daz 3D have officially stated numerous times "Why encryption?" It's not rocket science. Though it seems many just don't want to accept the official explanation preferring to speculate endlessly about maybes. The flow on effects of rampant piracy add a cost to any business that trades in media or IP. How large that impact is and the amount of mitigation provided by DRM is debatable. There are many other cost impacts other than direct loss of sale or the likelihood of additional sales. For example in my own experience just this month to date I have received over 12 chargebacks, as an individual, from fraudulent credit card purchases. Each chargeback has an associated real world cost, are you saying there is no cost associated with copyright theft? Are you suggesting it's responsible for a business to not attempt to mitigate against known loss?

You've yet to indicate what metric DAZ would consider dropping DRM.

I have indicated, numerous time you just don't want to hear the answer. Daz 3D like any business would react to market or financial changes to best secure the future of their business interests. Every change, in any responsible business is monitored and modified as requirement demands. To do otherwise would be negligent. Daz 3D has at there disposal many data points.

DRM isn't going to stop piracy and even if it did, the argument that more people would buy their products is in support of MY argument as to why DAZ is doing this.

Who said anything about DRM stopping piracy? DRM is a mitigative effort to deter piracy. Mitigating loss does not equal new revenue stream, which seems to be what you're suggesting...

About plan B, please specify when DAZ has ever gone back on a decision and implemented something different? There is no precedent. Without such a precedent, it is you who are speculating about DAZ's behaviour, not me.

Well let me see, what about Genesis 1 merge sexes to Genesis 2 agreeing that the sexes are better dealt with separately? Good enough? I expect not...

In fact I'm actually having a hard time discerning the key points to a lot of your last post to actually raise a challenge. It appears you make a statement and when it's challenged you just change the terms of that statement. For example you stated:

The only reason they would add encryption is if they're looking for additional sources of revenue.

When I raised facts that this is not the only use for encryption you ignored the evidence I linked and just changed the stance of the statement without actually adding any more data to give your original statement any more weight, leaving it still as a speculative suggestion.

So maybe I will just make a few bullet points.

1. Is Daz 3D placing encryption on some of their products to gauge market reaction and act to mitigate rampant piracy and any associated financial loss? YES
2. Does Daz 3D see encryption as a revenue stream generator? Unlikely, though secondary effects of added security may act to bolster the whole market segment and encourage growth in the creative pool of the business and be a blow to a growing culture of easy access and distribution pirated content.
3. DRM is in the far the majority of uses part of an overall system of security process to protect digital rights of assets.
4. Is usage of DRM an indicator to the long term viability of any business? No, In any business it would be considered as a single aspect of a greater whole.

I'm not going to go over why your two certainties are at best generalised possibilities, they would not even be start to be considered as certainties until the variable aspects of the statements have been pinned down to more definite statements, as it appears anything that challenges their validity is discounted as irrelevant with no actual declaration in the statement of what is relevant and no backing of actual evidence. In effect I would be arguing solely against your opinion, which would seem unlikely to change despite any evidence presented.

I'm not willing just to argue with your opinion, which you are well and truly entitled to. I'm agreeing with Richard that most things you are raising are speculation and your own opinion at best.

Oh my gosh. This type of debate is useless.

Razor42 posted at 11:54AM Thu, 11 February 2016 - #4254194

About plan B, please specify when DAZ has ever gone back on a decision and implemented something different? There is no precedent. Without such a precedent, it is you who are speculating about DAZ's behaviour, not me.

Well let me see, what about Genesis 1 merge sexes to Genesis 2 agreeing that the sexes are better dealt with separately? Good enough? I expect not...

Hmmm... seems to me going from charging for DAZ 4.0 to making it free was an awful big one. Yep, I might even call it a precedent.

"Hmmm... seems to me going from charging for DAZ 4.0 to making it free was an awful big one. Yep, I might even call it a precedent."

Wasn't that back in the days of Dan Farr DAZ? - If so it isn't a precedent for the New DAZ management. I'm just curious as to who was in charge when that happened...

GeofiX posted at 12:23PM Tue, 16 February 2016 - #4255173

"Hmmm... seems to me going from charging for DAZ 4.0 to making it free was an awful big one. Yep, I might even call it a precedent."

Wasn't that back in the days of Dan Farr DAZ? - If so it isn't a precedent for the New DAZ management. I'm just curious as to who was in charge when that happened...

Well, yes Dann Farr was still at Daz 3D at the time Daz Studio Pro was made available for free (Feb 2012), but was no longer the acting CEO of the business, at that point the still current CEO of Daz 3D Jim Thornton had been in the role for a number of months (Nov 2011). So you could probably call this one of the first major changes implemented by the "New DAZ management". Also its worth noting, a number of the current management team were actually involved with Daz 3D with Dann Farr as CEO for numerous years. So "New" may not be an entirely accurate term for the changes to the management team that have ocurred over the years.

Here is an article about the change to make DS and other software available for free with comment from both Dann and Jim from 2012. And secondly an article from 2011 announcing the new CEO and CMO (1) (2)

Or if you would like a long and rambling thread full of speculation, cynicism and people talking about "the announced change that are going to ruin Daz forever!!!!" You can try this Rendo thread in the Poser forum from 2012 (3) which was started after Brian Howell announced that a "Game Changer" was about to be announced by Daz 3D CEO Jim Thornton, Brian Howell who is today Daz3D's current VP of Production and has been with Daz 3D since 2007 which was 4 years before Dann left. Parts of the old linked thread are quite an interesting read with some very obvious bias, overt cynicism and what ended up being some far from accurate predictions made by some members in regards to what the change will mean to the future of the industry. Funny the echoes that still ring out to this day from some that seem to have been getting it very wrong for years, but see no need to change their tact...

I'll take your word about it, after all you work for them.

GeofiX posted at 6:15AM Tue, 16 February 2016 - #4255285

I'll take your word about it, after all you work for them.

Remember the new TOS, now. Let's not argue facts with personal attacks.

So is DAZ doing away with the content in zip format? Is there a specific date for this? Is it going to be retroactive, or just applied to new content?

Thanks!

TylerZambori posted at 3:19PM Tue, 16 February 2016 - #4255353

So is DAZ doing away with the content in zip format? Is there a specific date for this? Is it going to be retroactive, or just applied to new content?

Thanks!

Content that is currently available via DIM will continue to be available via DIM while there are enough people using it to make the servers worth maintaining, and will not be encrypted. There has been no absolute commitment to making new content encrypted-only - so far only a few items, freebies, conditional freebies, or items heavily discounted with other purchases, have been released in encrypted form.

Well, today I found a freebie, Canoes, that is "Encrypted Daz Connect" only

@Jules53757 I'm thinking it should be good for another 10 pages LOL. Daz has done this with 2 or 3 items that were also freebies about a month ago during some sale.

GeofiX posted at 1:16PM Wed, 17 February 2016 - #4255285

I'll take your word about it, after all you work for them.

Really no need to take my word for it, if you read my post I provided references to all of my statements, as they weren't "my" opinion, they were statements based on primary sources...

DAZ_Steve has just(ish) posted to announce that all encrypted content will be made unencrypted twelve months after its release - people who bought early will be able to update to the unencrypted version as with any product update, people who buy after the twelve-month mark will get the unencrypted version on purchase.

Well I will try my luck in here as I tried to write my personal impression in the DAZ forums but it seems there unless it does not go in direction sporting there ideas that Comments are censured or removed.

I realized the past month's that content for Daz or Poser have drastically decreased there amount, it seems that the Content Creators are loosing there motivation meaning that there are also less potential customers. Also I realize that the quality of Poser/Ds have decreased Drastically. I guess it is all caused through the Drastic aggressive changes of Daz stores justifying there acts as fight against piracy. I can't agree with there arguments as for me it looks more like a desperate act to gain control over the market why do I get to this conclusion? Well as a Content creator " Artist " I know how much Time energy I have to spend to get a few Products out and naturally the Stores get a big part of the Cake , regimentations in Stores are set up as a rent space for Content sales but Vendors Creators are treated like Employees. Rental is 50% of the sale but the artist has the whole work and is the owner of the sold creation all this is ok as every Individual can decide him self if he wants to play the game or not. To the Point : what is Daz doing well he tries to secure hes income respect-less to what content creators think about it taking controll over content that does not belong to him. If I rent a store in a City selling vegetables that I Plant I rent some space to sell my stuff but I am my own boss about my products, In the stores it sure is mentioned to work this way but it is not treated that way especially not at DAZ. Com-paired to a Year ago it seems that only half of creations reach the store platforms and it seems to me that less great creators are willing to keep on playing that game. So actually all this stff about encryption does not seem to be to support costumers , protect Creators from piracy , either to prevent Piracy , it is only in the Interest of the Store to grow and secure there income. makes me think who is the Pirate ?

my personal impression in the DAZ forums but it seems there unless it does not go in direction sporting there ideas that Comments are censured or removed

I also saw this going on. Between this and the DRM content, it's very disrespectful to those of us who have incorporated 3D art into our businesses.

RHaseltine posted at 5:53PM Thu, 18 February 2016 - #4255601

DAZ_Steve has just(ish) posted to announce that all encrypted content will be made unencrypted twelve months after its release - people who bought early will be able to update to the unencrypted version as with any product update, people who buy after the twelve-month mark will get the unencrypted version on purchase.

I don't get the point of it then?

gate posted at 12:34PM Fri, 19 February 2016 - #4255731

Well I will try my luck in here as I tried to write my personal impression in the DAZ forums but it seems there unless it does not go in direction sporting there ideas that Comments are censured or removed.

I realized the past month's that content for Daz or Poser have drastically decreased there amount, it seems that the Content Creators are loosing there motivation meaning that there are also less potential customers. Also I realize that the quality of Poser/Ds have decreased Drastically. I guess it is all caused through the Drastic aggressive changes of Daz stores justifying there acts as fight against piracy. I can't agree with there arguments as for me it looks more like a desperate act to gain control over the market why do I get to this conclusion? Well as a Content creator " Artist " I know how much Time energy I have to spend to get a few Products out and naturally the Stores get a big part of the Cake , regimentations in Stores are set up as a rent space for Content sales but Vendors Creators are treated like Employees. Rental is 50% of the sale but the artist has the whole work and is the owner of the sold creation all this is ok as every Individual can decide him self if he wants to play the game or not. To the Point : what is Daz doing well he tries to secure hes income respect-less to what content creators think about it taking controll over content that does not belong to him. If I rent a store in a City selling vegetables that I Plant I rent some space to sell my stuff but I am my own boss about my products, In the stores it sure is mentioned to work this way but it is not treated that way especially not at DAZ. Com-paired to a Year ago it seems that only half of creations reach the store platforms and it seems to me that less great creators are willing to keep on playing that game. So actually all this stff about encryption does not seem to be to support costumers , protect Creators from piracy , either to prevent Piracy , it is only in the Interest of the Store to grow and secure there income. makes me think who is the Pirate ?

That's is an interesting argument, a change that primarily benefits PA's is making PA want to leave the market?

Also I think you will find the release rate at Daz 3D of products has increased not declined. The amount of PA's selling Daz Studio content has increased and not declined. I am actually a PA at Daz3D and I can personally say a lot of what you have said here is well and truly miles from the mark. The sales agreement is in no way similar to renting a store. The equivalent of that would be the marketplace stating you need to pay $1000 a month regardless of the income of your store. So if you only earn $600 in sales you need to give it all to the store plus add an amount of debt per month while you continue to trade. In effect making sales a cost to the seller not to the market and forcing creatives to continue to produce or find the cost of their store means they need to withdraw. I have never actually spoken to a Daz PA that doesn't feel that Daz 3D is entitled to every penny of the 50% of sales they take and over the years I have spoken to many including a lot of the major names in the industry. The %50 share is in exchange for their(The marketplaces) site hosting, marketing and sales efforts, Promotion of new releases as well as back catalogue sales, Payment services, Customer security, PA Perks, Platform development etc etc.

The fact that you consistently refer to Daz PA's as Vendors seems to indicate your talking from speculation and not experience.

As a PA at Daz I can actually say from my experience most of what your saying is unfounded and seems to be mostly an effort at smearing for some unstated reason or gripe.

There is an old saying in the business world - %50 of a something is worth more than 100% of nothing...

Well I agree that the amount of Sellers Increased at DAZ a rate of people who just swaped from one store to another. but you have to agree that allot of great Creators stopped with there contributions. My point is not on how much the Store gains as Long a Vendor is agrees with this kind of system it is ok everyone can decide on hes own how he likes to market hes product. I am many years in the Artist scene my creations Never have been Pirated Never been shared, no matter where I sold em or gave them as freebies. you might ask your self why? it is because I respect either side and don't make a big deal about these issues.it is how you get respect for what you Create. as for the marketing there are other solutions to support Artist rather then to head for a Million heavy Industry . I give you a sample ! I place 4 products into a store like Daz sales for 3000$ in a month my contribution is 1500$ ( Experienced Fact ) now my costs are 1500$ lets say there are an average of 20 vendors that reach this amount it would be a contribution of 30'000 a month take the 1000$ away remaining 29'000$ For the store. But actually it is not my Point , it rather disgusts me to see to what it leads. it all leads to encrypt files , take control of a market , and worst of all trying to make such concurrence to other Products that these have no more place in the market. Daz Studio Vs Poser , we should not forget what the root was of this Market ! Concerning my Experience , I would say with the sites I am running the People Artists I support not trying to ripp em off I sure have enough experience. I don't gain from those who wish to get a little money from all the hours they spend on there creations I earn from what I do my self. And I even offer to artists help to establish them selves into the market without cost the artist ends up to having a 100% gain from hes Creations. A shake hand method ! you will ask your self where is the Profit , well the Profit is that Every Creator sells better as there are Many ( Mall system ).

The next question would be , If Daz goes that far to encrypt files what will happen next how far will it go ? will They gain full control, Will Renderosity Rdna Ec. Be forced to fallow ? just to be able to contribute in Daz Studio. Will the Creator other stores have to agree to new stricter Roles based on DS and start to make agreement contracts ?

I am many years in the Artist scene my creations Never have been Pirated Never been shared, no matter where I sold em or gave them as freebies. you might ask your self why? it is because I respect either side and don't make a big deal about these issues.it is how you get respect for what you Create.

So you're suggesting respecting pirates protects against piracy? ...

The next question would be , If Daz goes that far to encrypt files what will happen next how far will it go ? will They gain full control, Will Renderosity Rdna Ec. Be forced to fallow ? just to be able to contribute in Daz Studio. Will the Creator other stores have to agree to new stricter Roles based on DS and start to make agreement contracts ?

This has been covered many times, you're basing a suggestion of what may happen on speculation. Daz Encryption doesn't affect any of these stores.

Daz official comment was "Will products from stores other than Daz 3D keep working? Products from other stores will continue working the way they did prior to Daz Studio 4.9. These products do benefit from features that have been added by Daz Studio 4.9, but they cannot benefit from any of the Daz Connect specific features."

Quote : So you're suggesting respecting pirates protects against piracy? ...

it is to respect the Individual you never know who sits on the other end of the machine it might be your best friend your Nabor or your Wife.

99% of people who own a computer can be accused of Pirated stuff "even on your machine" if there would be a control for sure something could be found that are not Legitimate! could be a song a clip a movie a game a youtube ect ect even a text you have copied on Google "we all are Pirates of some sort". so I would say why accuse others if you might have something your self on your machine. Your even guilty if you did not know that you have it . "I am not a white sheep and I think either are you".

As I stated it is Everyones own decision on what he supports and sure it might be a speculation just like Daz speculates on Encryptions. but I don't think that I am wrong , if customers, Creators fallow, it will state the act ! And Daz will build up upon that system , if Creators Consumers don't fallow, Daz will be forced to drop that idea. things are not carved in stone the costumer is still king and it will be on there decision on how things will be treated. I see that Encrypted stuff still as suggestion , but I also see that allot of costumers are offend by the Idea, feeling pushed into something they actually dislike.

Quote 2 : So you're suggesting respecting pirates protects against piracy? ...

Additionally: I honestly was hoping that a few of my Products would be Pirated and spread over the net. It would be free advertisement and in some sort would say " that product is really cool " it would attract allot of attention ( Well it never happen ) so sometimes I ask my self is my Product not good enough to be Pirated, or am I to much respected ? trying to figure out what I may do better. Allot of great artists gotten famous this way , if a song Reaches the top it gets ripped all over and it is what makes it even greater at the end. so every situation can be taken as advantage. Oh and adding a little drama to it " They pirated me " will get additional attention to the Product this drops the next question , Using encryption against Piracy? is it really constructive or rather Destructive for the small Poser/DS market. advertising can be very expensive and not always effective. Also I think that Honest people who really Plan to use a Product will buy that one, the others just keep on collecting Dust-catcher addicted to Collect and never really use.

gate posted at 1:04PM Fri, 19 February 2016 - #4256035

Quote : So you're suggesting respecting pirates protects against piracy? ...

it is to respect the Individual you never know who sits on the other end of the machine it might be your best friend your Nabor or your Wife.

Can you be more specific on how to give that respect? My first product was on sold on Poseraddicts years ago when I started selling and way before I submitted anything to DAZ. It sold rather blah, which as a new vendor I understood but it was good to get some grocery money. ;) After about a year or so I put it on sale for $1.99 and I kept it there (it may even be that price now at that site).

It was pirated. I was rather shocked. And this is a small site, not DAZ.

To be honest, I don't think respect has anything to do with whether an item is pirated or not. It doesn't matter if a store decides to protect their investment. Things are shared if they are perceived to have the value to bring people to share other items with them.

The thing is respect work both ways, and it's not always DAZ vs the world. I remember I had just started learning how to render and I made an erotic render which I was happy about posting. I put it on a gallery and about a week later, it end up in a Pay-for-view gallery. Where exactly is the respect from someone takes the work that wasn't even selling for their own gain? There is no respect, so I don't think your argument holds any water.

Piracy is not marketing. Marketing encourages people to go and buy products....Piracy gives the stolen work away. Marketing is directed by the product creator who has control over which market it hits.....Piracy gives stolen work to people who dont want to buy. People who steal the products and share the products are not respecting anyone

DAZ works hard to protect their PA's because they respect the hard work that we put into our products. Customers respect PA's by continuing to purchase the products we make. PA's respect their customers by continuing to sell their products at very reasonable prices, and ensure that the customer always gets the best quality work that they can put out. THAT is a healthy work cycle.

And for the record.....The PA rouster at DAZ is growing not shrinking..the customer market at daz is growing not shrinking (as I jumped yet another tax bracket with this income tax filing). The whole industry is getting stronger...and PA's feel safer knowing the site they sell at has their back and is working hard for both protecting them and growing their sales.

Well then we all should check our Computers very well Don't we? it is not all about Poser or DS. actually it is not that you have to give respect to Piracy or support it it was not met to be understood this way, but finding a way of Balance and get respected for what you do , not by whining ( Ohh I got Pirated ) that is not the solution and either is to Encrypt stuff, this will bring out a new Hack hero and he is gonna get the name not Daz not you! How do you act if you in the dark woods surrounded by Wolf's? Many great Producers tried to protect , but have they gained? Lets imagine that the store is a castle with a King but that king just wants more gold he will cut the heads of the farmers because they steal a piece of bread not asking why did he steal calling him a Pirate trying to Protect his kingdom. but one day that king would fail , it is known in history how things end and it always ends the same way. Our parents were reading us fairy tales that actually were leading us to the right way. I can imagine that if I see the aspect of a Pirate I would think he is some sort of Robin Hood stealing from the rich giving to the Poor. But like I said we are in times of digital floods, most just collect even if they never will find the time to use it . you tell me "the one who has been pirated" , have you ever seen a Product a render or anything that has been made out of your stolen goods? I would not think so ! as those who stole never used it , and if it ever was used then by one who honestly purchased your Product.

back to the Encryption as I get the impression that this all leads to other discussions. So what do you think if stuff will get encrypted how long will it take until it will be cracked ? it is like provocating wild animals to open the chest with the bloody meat. and if one will do it might get even worse then it ever was before!

Can you be honest ? tell me how much songs movies clips have you on your machine that are not Legitimate ? if there is just one then the one who has it would not be any better then the one he is pointing the finger at!

But naturally I agree the strategy is sure to be handled with respect as how said the Industry just wants to protect the Pa's Interests and make there sales grow. I do not think for the ones who go that way do wrong as everyone is free on how he wishes to Market hes Products. I just wonder if it is the right way after reading allot about concerned costumers and also concerned Creators.

Either way may be the right way and either the wrong it is just the way of aspect.

"Can you be honest ? tell me how much songs movies clips have you on your machine that are not Legitimate ? "

I can answer that. Pretty close to zero. And that which exists on my machine that is not legitimate I don't use and haven't bothered getting around to deleting.

I do believe in trying before you buy, and that may include getting music from artists I haven't heard before to listen to it. And if I like it, I make sure I pay for it. As well as any 3-D content, programming tools, etc. Including stuff I have picked up from shareCG and wilmap. Why?

Because if you like something, and want to see more of it, the artist needs to be supported. Or they can't create more art. Which means I have sent some money Beat578's way through the donation button simply because I'd like to see him do more stuff, it has value to me.

Now someone who picks up things through pirate sites probably doesn't care much about the art or the artist or they would be paying for it. The people creating this stuff are not huge corporations, and if you steal something from DAZ by picking it up free you're only stealing half of it from DAZ.

What I am not buying is any argument saying that putting DRM on an item will increase sales, never have. I don't begrudge someone trying it though as long as it doesn't get in the way of how I use it.

Now clearly any PA at DAZ who is not using special tools (like the HD ones) is perfectly capable of bypassing DAZ entirely, and using any other store, or setting up their own site. The reason they are at DAZ is DAZ provides services that in their mind is worth that 50% cut, and those services may well include copyright protection, whether through DRM or legal means.

What DAZ has said is that pursuing the pirate sites legally isn't working now, which is why they went to DRM, and I believe that. I don't think the DRM will work either.

But I don't for a moment believe DAZ is going to DRM either to lock in Vendors, or lock out other legitmate sites, and you have given me no reasonable argument to think you are right on that one.

I do not think either that he will Lock in vendors or really try to reserve the whole market to him self it would be like choping of a feeding hand , in a way I like to be a little dramatic at times resulting that people let there masks fall. that is my way.

sure now days everyone is able to build hes own little corner in the net or join in groups new store communities , out of experience I sure understand that creators go to Daz or be in the large stores , and it is honestly worth the contribution as they are grown community. the other way is the hard way, to build alone there is no future or not a large one unless having a great Artist name. normally the costumer leads the way that will be, not the creator not the Store, we just adapt it to the needs of the ones who feed us.

time to work a little on my Egyptian brain mask that I'm creating :)

and oh for once thank you to the mods not to have deleted censured my dramatics , it seems things have changed I mean in a positive way in these forums , Not being personally attacked or discriminated for hes opinions I guess others could learn.

We only delete things that violate the TOS. Your posts didn't.

@gate agree with wheatpenny it is within the guidelines. You have put forward a view that might not win too many fans on a website that houses vendors that work their butts off on their creations and their customers scrimping and saving to the buy content which is supporting them so you probably could expect the view to be challenged. Of course this will be done with intellect and rat cunning as they are pretty skillful at it without the need for personal attacks. It is the Daz forum and it is what it is. We try to keep it friendly.

As for your content not getting knocked off by the pirates in the context of your opinion I can't say I have ever seen that raised on a forum before. So it is difficult to draw on previous experience. If it was me and I can only speak for myself, If the product was 100% my content and I shared the same view as you I would upload a couple zips to hedge my bets. No one need ever know. That said there a a ton of safe places to upload your content and gain a reputation for your work. If you have a store and your free products carry the info in the readme and you gain a good following they will track you down to browse and possibly buy your paid items. tbh The day I have to turn to a bunch of thieves to evaluate my worth in anything I do will be the day I change that career.

Well thank you , :) Actually it would not be my intention to get Fans I am Artist , placing comments that are not my personal opinion would offend my personality.

evaluating the strategy to Place out a product that needs to cover the costs of creation you need allot of hits, no matter from who. a sample : When i place something out I get up to 1500 hits within 2-3 hours actually the faster the better from these 1500 hits you might get 5-10 potential buyers eventually one admirer that collects. If there is to many Roles restriction Codes Encryption Ect you might loose a whole bunch of Interests especially newcomers if the application cant be learned within a short period of time.

the intention of my arguments are not to push down any other Store or creator rather contrary as the more that support a Product no matter where they might do it the better it is for the marketing it generates potential Costumers and new Creators and new Pirates. In the case of Daz in my opinion is that it is rather contra productive.

I give you a sample for a Limitation Eula in a Product:

Limitations: This product may be used in all of your commercial or non-commercial renders. I am aware that some will share my Creations and nothing about that, well as long as you just have them as Dust Catcher in your runtime! Most just collect and never Really use the stuff! But if you Intend to use the Renders for your work, Comics Public Images or what ever it would just be fair to get a legal License and Buy the Product. Thank you for supporting and buying my Product

the Sample shows a tolerance for the product you sell ! the ones found in almost all sold Products are very restrictive almost threating people , Like if you do then we will ! all this gets more and more restrictive as the time goes by because the creator thinks that he deserves more then he gets not considering that a market might grow and that floods of Products give more choices to be consumed , but not always generates more buyers. Considering such an issue the Creator Store tries to blame a Pirate that the Income is not Increasing! not considering the fact that these would not Purchase the Product even if it was not Pirated allot are not willing to Invest into Dust catchers.

Thing is...while it is great to have theories as to what you think is or is not a good idea, DAZ has the experience. They have been playing this market for a long time, they are the most successful of the sites, and they are the only site that is actively bringing in new customers. They really do know what works and what doesnt to grow the market.

I have not always agreed with their decisions either,and have had more than a few debates over their plans. But in the end I cannot argue with their results. I have been with them for a long time, I have personally met with the old management and with the new, and can tell you that the new management really has a strong vision for growth, and professionals with real world experience guiding their decisions. They can see beyond just this community and into newer and exciting markets all as avenues for growth. So while our opinions on this or that may occasionally differ, they do have the skill to know what is what and what the communities require for growth.

....and I can tell ya.....dealing with pirates is not a way to grow ones name or reputation. Reputations are made by creating quality products, and marketing them to customers who appreciate them. If as you say, pirates simply download and never use the products, there is obviously no appreciation, and no customer......and do you really think they care about who made the product?...come on...of course not.

So Daz's plan to market to an active and growing customer base really does make alot more sense.

Quote: ....and I can tell ya.....dealing with pirates is not a way to grow ones name or reputation. Reputations are made by creating quality products, and marketing them to customers who appreciate them. If as you say, pirates simply download and never use the products, there is obviously no appreciation, and no customer......and do you really think they care about who made the product?...come on...of course not.

Well that sure is something to consider thinking about . there are some arguments about " do they care Who made it" I think they do ! as for in most cases things do not seem as they would steal the product pretending they made it . it rather shows up with an original Promo and a credit for the creator and the store, what brings us back to Free publicity. so why if they Steal would they give Credit and make publicity for the product on where it is possible to purchase or get?

Assuming a robbery of jewelery I don't think that the Robbers would go out and say hey I got it from this guy and here is the a dress that would not make any sense and brings me a little into a conflict.

I think that allot of these places are gold mines for the industry! they grow fast get many members hit the top of the charts, they get sold to industries to place adds as to spend 10'000$ for 200'000 hits might be worth more then to place it into TV for a million a minute.

but the argument is not that Sharing or pirating should be supported the argument is does an encryption really prevent it or does it put it more at risc? as I said there are allot of Hackers just waiting for such opportunities.( I guess they see it as a challenge )

And why did DAZ first state we will encrypt and just short after they state it will be just for a Year then you might do with it what you want. this would mean that they sure what to get there idea to live no matter what but realized that it is a RISC.

A statement like this one
Quote :Thornton and the team “We have great investors, the best products in the industry and a laser-focused vision of where we are going.”

this means that plans are made years before they show a Political tactic to get costumers used to there ides. not really stating "our Artists offer the best products in the Industry and we have a laser focused vision on how to Promote them " the statement tells me they take the whole credit not even mentioning that it is not theres but that they just represent the products of the Artists the Creator remains the original copyright holder and should be treated this way.

To all my Daz friend here. I wanna thank you all for the support & love you have giving me over they many years I have been here at renderosity. But with the recent development of new TOS & no off site linking & Politically correct forum rules. I decided its best I leave renderosity. Because I am anything but Politically correct so it would be just a matter of time before I would violate your stupid rules anyway. So I have pulled all my free 3d content & ani blocks, and zbursh morphs out of rendersoty freebie section.& just left my gallery for now. . I am sorry if this inconvenience any of you members.

I have adored my time here and my friendships I have made. But i feel if I can not link share to my own website or sites I share my work like youtube or facebook.&/or be able to speak freely about the "ALL" things that interest me in 3d whether they be political or anything out side the box of rendersoity TOS then there is no longer reason to come here anymore.

To me Art is the purest form of freedom of expression . which I feel is not longer honored at this web site when renders of Political Satire and off color jokes can be removed because it might hurt someone feelings. or that one person(a moderator) may not like a comment and just say its not being politically correct for the forums & remove it, is going way to far for me to accept. I would post a link to where you could find my new home for my content But that will be against the TOS here so from now on you'll need to GUESS where everyone is keeping there free content. . I am sure it will not matter to some of you or "the I agree with everything Posse" that I have left here. But be assured I am am not the only member that has pulled out our free 3d content because of this new tos rule. Renderosity new rules are just a little to fascist for me to agree with. I am to old to deal with Politically correctness when Art is Expression and sharing of all ideas and opinions, not just the ones you like. . Some art is meant to be thought provoking and something even controversial . which is no longer accepted at this web site and a real shame. If you reply to my comment I will not be replying back. The opinions of those running this site no longer matter to me with it comes to this issue with the politically correct TOS rules. So I am retiring my renderosity account and will no longer be supporting or purchasing any more content from renderosity.

May you all have have a great life here at rendersosity and I will miss you greatly. & even perhaps I will see you in another website that is less restrictive & believe in the freedom of expression of all art forms. So I will not be back until some major changes have happen to bring this community back together like it once was. I do hope the idiot that thought this stupid rule up relies Artist like me are what pay your salary. so take some time to think about that so you don't have to wonder why when your sales have dropped . Take care & God bless. Sincerely Ivy Summers

Gate...your logic hurts my brain. There is no "Free Publicity" if people are stealing your product and giving it away...that is all pure loss. No matter how you try to turn that around it will never be anything good. Good luck with your products...you can market them how you see fit. But for me....I am glad to have mine marketed to actual customers who actually respect the product and the people making them.

:) Marketing is a Ruff business that is for sure , actually you on your own with it. There is no right no wrong, just sides ! I usually am on my own and I like it this way, I offer others to learn to do it on there own , being free not guided by Guidelines from Stores Not being guided by Pirates and especially not letting others getting the laurels for what They made. Taking laurels from Artists sure would be more Criminal then a Little Pirate. and Reading what I wrote before, what I made Never has been Pirated , it might be caused through my Opinion about things and how I treat them . well actually even if it would one day then I would not even use that hard Word "Pirate" I would just say it got shared. but if someone would state my Creations in a way Like daz made in hes statements then I would say I got Pirated. But either of ever happen and never will so I just let it be a Speculation.

Marketing is a Ruff business that is for sure , actually you on your own with it. There is no right no wrong, just sides!

Hmm, I would suggest you google "marketing disasters". You may not see right or wrong, but you may see 8 figure settlements.

Reading what I wrote before, what I made Never has been Pirated , it might be caused through my Opinion about things and how I treat them

This is a pretty strange concept it seems a little like saying, "You know the bank robbers must really respect me and have taken note of my understanding of their desperate plight, because the branch where I do my banking has never been robbed since I started banking there." I hope when you read back, you also noted how unrealistic this premise sounds. Seems like you believe in the concept of honour among thieves? Sadly I have personally seen a junkie punch his girlfriend square in the face because she presumed to light the last cigarette in the pack without his consent. I labour under no such delusions. So people do, some don't. Unfortunately there is no Pirate's Code in realms of software piracy, everything is fair game. I wonder what you think of the practice of stealing content and planting malware in it for fellow "Sharers" to enjoy?

I would not even use that hard Word "Pirate" I would just say it got shared.

Well shared would be an entirely inaccurate term, shared implies permission is given for the "sharing" of the file. Piracy indicates an unauthorised act of software or data copyright infringement, including unauthorised sharing, copying and redistribution in breach of the associated EULA or licensing conditions. If you don't wish to apply licensing protection to your own content then you're free to release it under a license agreement that allows for sharing or redistribution if that's what you prefer.

So you have a place of marketing genius, commission free sales for third parties and an impregnable bastion from piracy. Pls then why don't you share the name of this place?

Quote: So you have a place of marketing genius, commission free sales for third parties and an impregnable bastion from piracy. Pls then why don't you share the name of this place?

Well I had the place as signature on my renders Providence of the Images just like a copyright signature but it seemed not to be allowed to have such a signature on renders. you can imagine what happen ( Renders had to be removed from Renderosity ) and yes there are amazing freebies and some good stuff :) but placing a link in here would be against the roles in here .

Quote : I wonder what you think of the practice of stealing content and planting malware in it for fellow "Sharers" to enjoy? that is really interesting , and wold be if we analyze this concept a great method to fight piracy ! probably better then encrypting files , fight them with there own weapons. A pirated Creator pulls up hes sword takes what belongs to him with a modified Pyton script that kills any runtime and placing it on such a site. well this also would be Strategic and may be effective. but not sure if it would boomerang! self-justice I would call this :)

You can just say the name, I can use google. Linking is against the TOS, but you can just say the name.

gate posted at 9:02PM Sat, 20 February 2016 - #4256363

Quote: So you have a place of marketing genius, commission free sales for third parties and an impregnable bastion from piracy. Pls then why don't you share the name of this place?

---

Well I had the place as signature on my renders Providence of the Images just like a copyright signature but it seemed not to be allowed to have such a signature on renders. you can imagine what happen ( Renders had to be removed from Renderosity ) and yes there are amazing freebies and some good stuff :) but placing a link in here would be against the roles in here .

Quote : I wonder what you think of the practice of stealing content and planting malware in it for fellow "Sharers" to enjoy? that is really interesting , and wold be if we analyze this concept a great method to fight piracy ! probably better then encrypting files , fight them with there own weapons. A pirated Creator pulls up hes sword takes what belongs to him with a modified Pyton script that kills any runtime and placing it on such a site. well this also would be Strategic and may be effective. but not sure if it would boomerang! self-justice I would call this :)

So you don't actually sell, correct? If not, of course you would not experience piracy because in fact you had nothing for pirates to steal.

Can you take a minute to explain how your experience in not providing anything to steal can provide advice that can be of any value to vendors who in fact sell and had their items stolen? I have to be honest in saying I'm not seeing where your advice can be relevant and what you've said so far makes no sense in terms of marketing since you don't sell.

Also I'm curious if you are creating items that are DS native and not poser items that DS users have to import (or the items were not tested in DS) and adjust materials to use.

You wanna google then go ahead

Freedom Poser DS

and at renderotica

I don't need to hide or lie the one you google is one that has been set up just recently to be a Store and still on testing actually a Sleeping site that I use as tryout and oh just stay friendly :)

gate posted at 9:43PM Sat, 20 February 2016 - #4256372

You wanna google then go ahead

Freedom Poser DS

and at renderotica

I don't need to hide or lie the one you google is one that has been set up just recently to be a Store and still on testing actually a Sleeping site that I use as tryout and oh just stay friendly :)

Ok so it's not DS native; it's really Poser items that DS users have to adjust. Also are you sure you should be selling content based on Fallout 4 and Firefly? (I could be wrong, but that's what is what popping up and as I do follow videogames those are what stuck out in that store, unless you made the G3F character). Those are copyright violations and should really not be sold. So really my comments stand on the subject. Finally you are just setting up a store for sale so you're not a vendor yet, so I'm still curious how you can give advice to those that have been selling for years as I still not understanding it.

Also I did see your items at rotica, but as they aren't really DS compatible (and anything that requires me to adjust materials aren't for DS, materials need to be made for customers as I used to go into Poser to create materials for my characters that I said are compatible for Poser), I skipped right over them. Saying that may have been acceptable 6 years ago, it simply isn't acceptable today for a vendor to say something is DS compatible and won't even open DAZ Studio to make native materials but expect customers to pay for an item and convert it themselves.