I was wondering what you think of this and if they will support Poser. I have emailed Runtimedna in the past and they did not answer.

You may want to check the DAZ forums. DAZ_Steve there says that the Poser products from RDNA will be migrated to DAZ and they will also accept new ones. Time will tell.

Kalypso posted at 10:49AM Thu, 25 February 2016 - #4257126

You may want to check the DAZ forums. DAZ_Steve there says that the Poser products from RDNA will be migrated to DAZ and they will also accept new ones. Time will tell.

Well I can't see them taking any Poser products that relate to Dawn, of any of the SM figures, or any of the other 3rd party figures. Not saying they should, just suggesting that the Daz statement may not be the whole story.

Daz is a business and what they are doing is what other companies have been doing for years. They buy out competition and jack up prices. Nothing new. Daz will try to calm everyone down by saying anything that keep customers paying while doing everything the company can to make more money.

I'm with hornet3d on this one. If there is money to be made I can see them selling V4 and M4 related products but as for Dawn of SM figures I can't see that happening. There are some pretty good V4/M4 based characters at RDNA, it would be nice to see some of them on sale here.

SilverDolphin posted at 12:48PM Thu, 25 February 2016 - #4257355

Daz is a business and what they are doing is what other companies have been doing for years. They buy out competition and jack up prices. Nothing new. Daz will try to calm everyone down by saying anything that keep customers paying while doing everything the company can to make more money.

I am not saying that Daz is wrong in any way, just making the point that not all the Poser stuff will make the transition. Products for figures that compete with Genesis is clearly not going to make it but there will be a lot more that do not go across because of Daz rules on certain products. That is clearly their right, after all, no matter how you dress this up Daz has bought RDNA, to the victor the spoils. Still means some products available today may not be available for very much longer, that is the way of the world and we have to accept it but nothing states we have to like it.

This is a disaster for the Poser community. Less competition not only increases prices but limits offerings. I bought ef-Steve, doubt that we'll see anything for him at Daz. Hopefully some content providers will migrate here. I want more non genesis offerings but it's getting worse. Smith Micro needs too wake up and start supporting Poser only content or we'll only going to end up with old stuff to play with. Poser won't survive vs the free Daz Studio if people can't get good new stuff fort it.

It only decreases competition if there are fewer content providers producing. If the number of producers remains the same, no matter how many brokerages they are spread across, then the competition is still the same. So unless a slew of Runtime content producers suddenly step out of the industry then nothing much changes other than their location.

I'm sure DAZ will continue to support Poser as little as they already do. The real question is how many vendors will migrate to Renderosity, hopefully most.

A guess another question though is with RuntimeDNA now out of the way, how long until DAZ make a move to try and take out the biggest independent store still standing, Renderosity.

CobraBlade posted at 12:31PM Sun, 28 February 2016 - #4257931

I'm sure DAZ will continue to support Poser as little as they already do. The real question is how many vendors will migrate to Renderosity, hopefully most.

A guess another question though is with RuntimeDNA now out of the way, how long until DAZ make a move to try and take out the biggest independent store still standing, Renderosity.

Personal View - Not long

I think Daz3d are in a kind of "cold war" against Poser and its content, not because DAz3d "hate" Poser, but because Poser, now, is its direct competitor, Poser vs Daz Studio.

All the steps they made last years, genesis ..., are towards get the entire content and the software market, and just now, Poser is just a stone in the road for them.

So for that reason, I think sites like Renderosity, with all its defects, and RDNA till now, with all its defects, big "independent" stores, are so important for the survival of the "Poser world".

So, beside any problems people can have about the working of this site, the staff and other things, everybody, including me, have their own site vision, and own way to do things, I think is important to support this site, and, with the time try , with good ways, to convince the owners to improve some aspects of the site.

One thing is clear, everything can like some people and not to other, but for sure, a large majority of those who are here, love Poser and everything related.

This is just my opinion.

adh3d posted at 1:33PM Sun, 28 February 2016 - #4258007

I think Daz3d are in a kind of "cold war" against Poser and its content, not because DAz3d "hate" Poser, but because Poser, now, is its direct competitor, Poser vs Daz Studio. ...

I tend to agree. I'm a dedicated Carrara user, mostly because of its usually seamless handling of Poser format content. And I've had trouble using DAZ format content (*.DUF, etc.) So I am spending much more here at Renderosity these days, the best remaining source of high quality, affordable Poser format content.

It is for each to decide but for me Renderosity has dropped far too far for me to start spending here. I will still buy Poser content but from Hivewire3D and anywhere else that might appear where customers are treated with respect. Much as I like Poser I am not prepared to lay down and be walked all over on the off chance my purchases will keep Poser alive.

It's getting awfully tribal in here...

Makes me wonder if I'm flying the right colors to be sailing safely in these waters...

IMO tribalism is one of the biggest threats to the "Poser Community", it seems as if division and demarcation are the par for the course in the Poser community. As opposed to unification collaboration and acceptance, which would seem to be what a community should be about.

Some of the Poser tribes I have noticed:

• The Click and render Tribe. (Disliked by the next tribe that see them as undermining the principles of Poserdom)

• It doesn't count unless you have built it from scratch Tribe (Somewhat elitist group that often feel Poser would be just as complete without a render engine)

• Individual Poser 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 & 11 - why won't vendors support my version Tribes (Cost and other barriers have spread the community over a large version range, disputes are not uncommon amongst the different version users as to what a particular product should or should not include.)

• Various website Tribes (Don't go to X site as it's corporate and evil, but Y site is truly a community and caring site.)

• Anti Daz 3D Tribe (This group tends to never have a good word to say about Daz 3D and often harbour some years old injury that has never healed quite right)

• Don't mind Daz 3D, I'm after great content Tribe (This group tends to be more pragmatic and makes purchases based on their need for said item but are often targeted by the last group as some kind of traitors to Poserdom, so must often be quite clandestine about their acceptance of Daz 3D as a legitimate source of content)

• The V4 and only V4 Tribe (This tribe's members are made up of individuals that invested heavily in V4 content over the years and wish the world stand still, for fear that their content will become out of date, this tribe will often takes issue with those that enjoy newer figures as this is a sign that times are moving on)

• The SM figure base Tribe (As long as it isn't a Daz 3D figure, it must be better for the Poser Community)

• The Let's take a figure and rerig it completely Tribe (After it has been fully re-rigged and modified it will be best figure for the Poser Community, until the next figure that needs fully re-rigging and modifying comes along)

• The your figure is so Uugggly Tribe (This figure will always be worse than that figure as this figure is UUGGGLYYY)

• The I want the latest Daz 3D figure Tribe (It's new, it's shiny, Why can't I have it? Plllsss! ...)

• The we don't need the latest Daz 3D figures "ever" Tribe (You only want it because it's new and shiny, and you can't have it. Insert Dead Horse metaphor here)

• The various, now RDNA has departed poser community should move to "x" site Tribes. (You know what we need? A site that actually loves Poser, a website that truly cares, where the Poser users can join together as one and dance, sing and weave baskets together while the growing children play and laugh carefree in the fields of fertile wheat. Can you imagine it? Generally considered by each different internal faction of this tribe to be located at any number of small independant sites, but cannot be one of the market leading sites.)

• I use Poser and Daz Studio Tribe. ( A rare, small and somewhat shy group. But they can be seen occasionally enjoying a diverse range of products and services, using them in the best way they see fit to complete set task.)

• I love Poser and will never use DS Tribe. (These guys can be quite territorial and will defend the borders of their lands with an almost religious fervor, have waged many senseless and bloody campaigns against the last tribe listed)

• The I want new content for latest version of Poser Tribe (Another smaller tribe that seems to always be the first to buy-in supporting Poser, but are usually left waiting for content that takes advantage of the new Poser functions as the vendors want to keep most of the other tribes happy so are hesitant to offer new function support.)

• The I have lots of old content and want perpetual support forever of that old content Tribe (Most of this group are peaceful and generous, unless the creators of Poser hint that there may be changes to back compatibility in the next version, they then can immediately transform into organised and militant groups that refuse to offer any type of compromise or give any quarter until their demands are met.)

• I don't buy much because vendors don't support my favourite old figure Tribe (A peaceful tribe that tend to accept that they can't expect their treasured figure to be mainstream forever, but believe in protecting and preserving the articles of that figure.)

• The various Tribes of "x" site is obviously going to be the saviour of the "Poser community" and is in no way just another business competing for market share, but a true bastion of the "Poser Community" and which will obviously be the only savior of the Poser community. (Trouble is no one can seem to agree which is the true saviour, but happily sharpen the knives against any they see as not being that saviour in their opinion.)

• The Tribe of believers in the unifying figure myth (This group holds dear to the myth, that one day a creator will come and bring to Poserdom a new perfect figure that will be embraced by all of the different various tribes, and that the figure will be crowned as the new Queen and her consort the King of Poserdom and all the tribes will be united together under their magnificent radiance. This tribe often fall into internal squabbles over which figures are truly the prophesied ones and will at times turn extremely aggressive on any offering they perceive as being a false or inadequate Queen or King.)

I wonder will there ever truly be peace for Poserdom?

History is full of small tribes that failed to work together for a greater good often one that is shared by each, being wiped out by larger tribes that appreciate the benefits of collectivism versus opportunistic based individualism masquerading as community.

Razor42 it is not about tribes, I am not anti-Daz at all, but it is obvious that DAZ3d and SM are in "war" for the control of the software, Poser vs Daz studio.

The main problem is that the thing you called "Poserdom", if Daz go on "eating" competitors ( other big stores ) with the intention, in the future, to control the entire content market, the word Poser.. is not going to exist more.

It is logical tha DAZ3d is going to "hides" poser content and "shows" Daz Studio content in their site, for that reason I prefer content markets where the owner don't have the control of the "software used" too, because in those stores, you will find content for both applications.

The type of language that some are using has been entirely tribal, around this issue and even more broadly in the community.

Daz 3D is mainly a content provider, but you are delineating them as Anti-Poser for some reason, I suspect mainly because they are not your own particular "tribe". The same way as others label Renderosity as being Anti Poser because of the recent surge of Daz Studio content in the marketplace here. Could you please tell me why would Daz 3D benefit from Poser's demise if they make the bulk of their profit through the sale of content and not software, from a vendor base that is free to create content for any platform they choose or prefer? There is no pressure on Daz 3D PA's to abandon Poser support it's entirely their own choice to support of not. There are numerous vendors at Daz 3D currently releasing content for Poser specific use and I'm sure they will continue to do so as long as these products see support from the community.

I can however see quite clearly the benefit of third party communities vilifying Daz 3D to aid in their own tribes commercial interests though. Even to the point where they may seem to be encouraging the abandonment of CA's that have chosen to sell Poser content with Daz3D into the future. And in effect decrease the broader level of Poser support across the community.

My point was that playing a blame game rarely has any positive results, and it may actually increase the amount and the severity of the fractures that are eroding the foundations of the structure that you're attempting to protect.

Keep it calm ppl I think the members will be safe with content for both platforms for a long time to come.

Razor42, I am not sure I would use the word tribe, but I guess for some it might be, it is a good set of observations though. I can relate to the various web site tribes in that I don't shop here, not because I think the corporation is evil but because of a distinct lack of customer focus, if that changed I would start buying here again. I do like Hivewire3D a lot and one of the things I like so much is that it is a good mix of both Daz and Poser users who play nice and help each other. I don't use DS but only because it crashes my system, many other use it without a problem so the problem must be my system. I could almost certainly get it to work but I have just decided I do not want to spend the time fault finding when Poser seems to provide all I need at this point.

I do shop at Daz but it is limited as I use Poser and not Genesis so that rules out a lot of products. I don't hate Daz though, it is up to them to run the business the way they see fit.

I would love everyone to be nice to each other but that does not mean we have to agree, I think a good healthy debate with respect on both sides is a great way to understand a situation and others. I am also world wise enough to know that is not going to happen other than in rare cases.

In the end it is just a hobby for me and I just wish others could enjoy it more, irrespective of their chosen tools.

Razor42 posted at 9:56AM Mon, 29 February 2016 - #4258136

The type of language that some are using has been entirely tribal, around this issue and even more broadly in the community.

Daz 3D is mainly a content provider, but you are delineating them as Anti-Poser for some reason, I suspect mainly because they are not your own particular "tribe". The same way as others label Renderosity as being Anti Poser because of the recent surge of Daz Studio content in the marketplace here. Could you please tell me why would Daz 3D benefit from Poser's demise if they make the bulk of their profit through the sale of content and not software, from a vendor base that is free to create content for any platform they choose or prefer? There is no pressure on Daz 3D PA's to abandon Poser support it's entirely their own choice to support of not. There are numerous vendors at Daz 3D currently releasing content for Poser specific use and I'm sure they will continue to do so as long as these products see support from the community.

I can however see quite clearly the benefit of third party communities vilifying Daz 3D to aid in their own tribes commercial interests though. Even to the point where they may seem to be encouraging the abandonment of CA's that have chosen to sell Poser content with Daz3D into the future. And in effect decrease the broader level of Poser support across the community.

My point was that playing a blame game rarely has any positive results, and it may actually increase the amount and the severity of the fractures that are eroding the foundations of the structure that you're attempting to protect.

Daz3d WAS a content provider, now is a software and content provider, and mainly a content provider for its own software. I think this is an option as good as any other for a 3d company, but this is the road they choose, and that ends with an inevitable confrontation with its rival, Poser.

I am not in any tribe, I don't think those tribes you talk exist , I try to give support in the content I made for Daz Studio, and I have no problem with that, but I like Poser and the way I can work with it, and for that reason I want a strong situation for Psoer application, that's all. If you don't want to see the evidence that the creation of Genesis was an intent from DAz3d to get all the Poser people to their software, DAz Studio, well, you see, but I think it was evident.

Reading you, with your reasoning of "tribes", you are in one, "the DAZ3d tribe". I don't think that reasoning is correct, I don't see any tribe, just several communities and people with different thinking and different tastes about the application the choose. That's ok for me, the problem would be not have that opportunity of choose application or choose your site or choose market, and the "disappearance" of RDNA, contributes to this.

For that reason I think sites like Renderosity and other like this one, are so important for the Poser community.

but it is obvious that DAZ3d and SM are in "war" for the control of the software, Poser vs Daz studio.

This is actually good, because then they have to compete in features etc. Now if SM would also start to compete with characters it could be even better :D

3D-Mobster posted at 12:19PM Mon, 29 February 2016 - #4258204

but it is obvious that DAZ3d and SM are in "war" for the control of the software, Poser vs Daz studio.

This is actually good, because then they have to compete in features etc. Now if SM would also start to compete with characters it could be even better :D

I could be agree if it were competition, competition is always good for everyone, the problem is that one of them try to get a monopoly "gobbling" independent content markets like , for example RDNA.

I could be agree if it were competition, competition is always good for everyone, the problem is that one of them try to get a monopoly "gobbling" independent content markets like , for example RDNA.

Agreed, and this coming from someone who does 90% of her shopping at DAZ!

It doesn't help matters that SM isn't even trying. Content Paradise is a wreck, neglected, and holds downloads for ransom. SM relies almost entirely on third party sites for advertising. I'm sure SM's excuse is something like "we leave it up to third parties so that we can focus entirely on creating a quality product for you" We've all heard that line somewhere, before. SM needs to step up its game.
Did you know that as of yet, there are only 12 Pauline products on Content Paradise, and zero Paul products?

It doesn't help matters that SM isn't even trying. Content Paradise is a wreck, neglected, and holds downloads for ransom. SM relies almost entirely on third party sites for advertising.

Content paradis is a bit of a wreck, but I kind of like it and could easily see how it could be improved so it would be a good site. But of course it would require a serious update/overhaul.

Did you know that as of yet, there are only 12 Pauline products on Content Paradise, and zero Paul products?

Im not suprised :D

I think the problem is point of view: DAZ is primarily a content site that supports a program, where Smith Micro is a program creator. As such, Smith Micro is being extremely short sighted, for continuing users they can make one sale of around $200 for an upgrade a year. DAZ can sell you that much content in a month. Which explains why the bottom line for both companies is quite a bit different.

When Poser came out, the standard was to create the program and let users create the content. Digital Art Zone found a nitch to fill, making products that could be used for that program, and found it so profitable they found they could support programming a whole product of their own.

SM still hasn't woke up to that fact - content sales can not only fully support product development, but can actually be profitable enough it pays to give the program away just for the user base for the content.

Whether they ever wake up in time is open to debate, their current path though is not going to lead to financial success for them.

I don't see DAZ as trying to buy up any competing stores though. I think the owners of RuntimeDNA found there were quite a few advantages to use the services DAZ was offering.

Of course Poser isn't in the position it is in these days because DAZ wants to be a big bad monopolist - it's in the position it is because it really doesn't understand the industry it is in. There isn't any reason they couldn't come up with a Genesis type line of their own, they just don't seem to have the interest.

I don't think labelling and pigeonholing people into categories and using somewhat disparaging language to describe them is at all the way towards healing a divided community. All it does is demonstrate disdain for the people so labelled. And THAT is divisive.

Edit: Most of the people who may seem to belong to a particular "tribe" actually don't. Razor labelled me as a "DAZ hater" the same month that I spent over $2500 at Daz3d.

If you want to heal the community, you have to get to know people for who they are, not for who you think they are based on one or two posts.

Definition of Tribe: a group of persons having a common character, occupation, or interest

Definition of Tribal: of, relating to, or characteristic of a tribe

So basically describing the Poser community as tribal is saying that it is made up of various splinter groups who share common or similar beliefs and interests under the umbrella of the larger group of the greater "community". The thing that makes the Poser community different is that there are so many individual factions and that at times they will tend to act quite obviously in their own interest and over the best interests of the Poser community as a whole. To the point of angry confrontations, denigration of others work and the portrayal of other aspects of the community as being direct enemies open for scorn or attack. Such is the artificial construct that Daz 3D and Poser are warring factions in some kind of war. A belief that I believe does nothing but reinforces a rift in the community, which would be better served by collaboration and professional respect amongst market competitors that at the end of the day each contribute to the growth of a niche market sector. Using the word "war" is extremely inciteful, all's fair in love and war. Describing Daz 3D as a market competitor would be more accurate IMO, and a market competitor more prominently competing with the Content market sites such as this one, way before they indirectly compete with SM's Poser.

If you don't want to see the evidence that the creation of Genesis was an intent from DAz3d to get all the Poser people to their software, DAz Studio, well, you see, but I think it was evident.

I see the creation of the Genesis figure from Daz as a company putting innovation and creativity to a forefront to create a market leading figure series. Even to the point of breaking the restraints of a binding Platform to deliver said innovation. Poser is a 3rd party Software platform that could of easily of chosen to add support for the Genesis figure range to their own platform in collaboration with Daz 3D. And even so,I think you may find that every version of Genesis, has been ported to Smith Micro's Poser. Most recently by members of the community here with Genesis 3. The question is why would a platform maker choose not to include support for the market leading figure developer? I believe the official answer is that "they do not wish to be tied to a Daz 3D development cycle". Which is a reasonable position to take for a company, but also declares that Smith Micro has no actual interest in the content market nor in 3rd party content developers for their platform, they're a Platform developer, which is their primary focus. 3rd party content developers must work within the boundaries that SM define or choose to step outside them at their own risk. It's not an act of war to do so but a brave expansion of the boundaries of the market niche, which despite what some portray is a good thing for the community as a whole. A richer and more colourful tapestry full of variation, innovation and creativity. It's not "war", it's known as business or even healthy competition.

RDNA had been making a transition to more and more Daz Studio content in their own store which was doing well before the announced merge, which progressed to Syyd releasing some products at the Daz 3D store to test the waters. After that she made the decision that her and the RDNA team's future was best served with the formation of a partnership with Daz 3D . It wasn't an aggressive takeover aimed at annihilating Poser support as it seems many would like to portray. And in fact time will tell If that is the arguments being presented are true. As you would see vendors being told not to submit any products but ones that support DS and you could expect to see none of the Poser Content from RDNA to be made available from the Daz Store. Neither of these are true at this point. So please adh3d can you backup your claims with anything other than personal intuition or opinion?

Over the last month Daz 3D has released a number of Poser only products in the store. Why would a business who has declared war on Poser be offering content that exclusively supports said platform?

moriador posted at 12:45PM Tue, 01 March 2016 - #4258382

Edit: Most of the people who may seem to belong to a particular "tribe" actually don't. Razor labelled me as a "DAZ hater" the same month that I spent over $2500 at Daz3d.

Maybe you could provide a link for the context here?

If I did say that let me offer an apology, as it does sound rather confrontational and antagonistic. Which is not that attitude I wish to carry here.

Pls don't feel you need to listen to me if you disagree with my PoV.

@moriador After searching for a an hour or two, I can't seem to find reference of myself anywhere stating you are a "Daz Hater". I searched under "Hater" in my posts and even resorted to looking through my posts individually from the last few years. Where I could find no such post. I believe I can remember us at some point having a disagreement in a thread which I believe was about the health of the Poser market, if I'm not mistaken. But I can't seem to find that thread either, which may mean it has been deleted. I wonder if I meant "Daz 3D Hater" or "Daz Studio Hater" as it's hard to tell without the context. And from the posts of yours I have read I wouldn't say either is true. Either way the apology still stands.

Also my post here was not an attempt to pigeon hole individuals but an attempt to demonstrate that Poser's future would be better served by people working together, rather that targeting others (Businesses or individuals) for attacks based on minuscule differences. I'm not talking healing at this point, I'm talking recognition of some of the issues that need to be overcome before healing or healthy growth can restart.

But I will bow out now as I have made my point and I do not want to see yet another thread descend into personal conflict.

@moriador Can you point out where Razor42 has labelled you a Daz hater please as I see no reference to it but I certainly see the claims being made that he has done so. If you have spent $2500 at Daz3D then I would think that would put you into the category of a very welcome Daz customer and I am sure Razor42 would agree.

Okay so he used the term tribe in his reference it would be up to you to place yourself into that tribe.

Razor42 posted at 2:52AM Wed, 02 March 2016 - #4258128

It's getting awfully tribal in here...

I wonder will there ever truly be peace for Poserdom?

History is full of small tribes that failed to work together for a greater good often one that is shared by each, being wiped out by larger tribes that appreciate the benefits of collectivism versus opportunistic based individualism masquerading as community.

Wait, you left out the "I don't care what anyone uses, or who makes what, I just want to make art in peace tribe"

That would the one I belong to :)

Tribes are a much nicer word then clique which is what you are really describing.

Good and fun read though

• It doesn't count unless you have built it from scratch Tribe (Somewhat elitist group that often feel Poser would be just as complete without a render engine)

To be fair, the equivalent demographic among the Blender artists are far worse about this. They're just like the Linux equivalent of the tribe; very talented tech-savvy individuals who insist that their preferred software is "more user friendly" and easier to use than Windows/Mac/Poser/Daz and unable to comprehend that not everyone is tech savvy like they are. Another telltale sign is that they complain that Windows/Mac/Poser/Daz are "locked" (and I do agree with them on this point) "Locked" referring to customizability.

• I use Poser and Daz Studio Tribe. ( A rare, small and somewhat shy group. But they can be seen occasionally enjoying a diverse range of products and services, using them in the best way they see fit to complete set task.)

I see them more often than you are alluding to. Granted, you see them more often OUTSIDE of the Poser forums.

• The I have lots of old content and want perpetual support forever of that old content Tribe (Most of this group are peaceful and generous, unless the creators of Poser hint that there may be changes to back compatibility in the next version, they then can immediately transform into organised and militant groups that refuse to offer any type of compromise or give any quarter until their demands are met.)

I don't blame them at all. Not a Poser user, but backwards-compatability is a requirement for me for anything.

• I don't buy much because vendors don't support my favourite old figure Tribe (A peaceful tribe that tend to accept that they can't expect their treasured figure to be mainstream forever, but believe in protecting and preserving the articles of that figure.)

Not all of them are peaceful. There's a belligerent one on the RDNA forums who likes Gen 3 figures. The overwhelming majority are indeed peaceful, though.

I don't think those tribes you talk exist

Oh, they definitely exist. Some in far greater numbers than others-- e.g. the contemptuous "build it yourself" ones are small in number among Poser users, but in great number among hardcore Blender users and Linux users. Among Blender users some among this tribe even look down upon Blender users who do not create their own content instead of DLing content from Blendswap etc. (the exception being scripts-- I am not aware of anyone in the Linux or Blender tribe who look down on someone for using someone else's script, though I have seen "make your own script instead of whining that nobody else will make it for you, it's so easy to make a script, anyone can do it" types.)

• I use Poser and Daz Studio Tribe. ( A rare, small and somewhat shy group. But they can be seen occasionally enjoying a diverse range of products and services, using them in the best way they see fit to complete set task.)

I see them more often than you are alluding to. Granted, you see them more often OUTSIDE of the Poser forums.

@IceEmpress Good call you caught us. I am from the Poser - Daz tribe myself and we can quite often be seen on outings like other software forums, websites and the occasional forum reports.

Although I will stay with the shy and we are generally a quiet cheery bunch while peeking our heads around the corner to see what is going on. I use both software because at times I can achieve a render in Poser that would take a month of sundays in Daz due to the look and feel of the render engine. I hope the vendors continue to make content for both and the Daz vendors take the time to supply the companion files in their content where possible. I would think they will be the vendors that shine through all of this with sales and not so much who owns what or houses the forums etc. If there is a market to be had then fill it. Same as if the software fits your workflow the use it. IMO it saves a lot of hassle :-)

I'm also one of those Daz-Poser users. I have always used whatever tool I needed to get the job done. When I was using 3dsMax, people asked me why I still used Bryce and Poser when I had Max. I told them I use whatever will give me the desired result with the least amount of hassle.

wheatpenny posted at 9:04AM Tue, 08 March 2016 - #4259847

I'm also one of those Daz-Poser users. I have always used whatever tool I needed to get the job done. When I was using 3dsMax, people asked me why I still used Bryce and Poser when I had Max. I told them I use whatever will give me the desired result with the least amount of hassle.

Agreed. I use whatever works and if it's going to be Daz, then so be it. A tool is a tool, it's the end result that matters.

Ues, you are right, a tool is a tool, a 3d figure is a 3d figure, the important thing is the art we can get from them, this is the main thing, but it is important the tool itself too, there are better tools, easier, or just you are happy with the way of doing things, so a tool is a tool, but there are better tools, so it is important what tool to choose so you get the better results.

the important thing is the art we can get from them, this is the main thing, but it is important the tool itself too, there are better tools, easier, or just you are happy with the way of doing things, so a tool is a tool, but there are better tools, so it is important what tool to choose so you get the better results.

"Better" is a very subjective term-- everyone has their own definition of "better" and "best". Remember, each person has a different level of tech savvy, plasticity with learning curves, funds, computer RAM/memory, computer OS, and then come the personal preferences such as render time vs. scene/mat setup time, what they use the software for (games vs. comics vs. high-res renders), what types of scenes/models they render (terrains vs. people vs. nature scenes vs space/planets)

For some people, a more limited or simpler software such as Poser, Bryce, or DAZ is preferrable to powerful "sandbox" programs like Blender or 3DSMax, where the versatility and customization may be confusing.
It is just like the OS debate-- for some people, Windows or Mac are all they need. Others would prefer a more versatile and DIY-type OS such as Linux-- and even with Linux now, there are dozens of builds, some easier to use than others. In the end, their choice OS depends on what purposes they use their computers for, their tech skills, brain plasticity, capacity for long-term/short term memory (and further for some, their ability to NOT confuse one thing for another-- e.g. a trilinguist getting their words or pronunciations mixed up), their preferences to stick with what they know vs. try new things, and for some-- their political/ethical views.

An old rusted pickup truck is better than a lamborghini if you're helping your buddy move to a new apartment, and a lamborghini is better if you want to look seriously cool cruising down main street. I've fixed my car with a set of fingernail clippers before. Use whatever you have, whatever works for you, or makes you happy. The 'this' is 'better' than that is a dead horse. I think there are far more important issues, such as, I can't for the life of me understand why people would choose the red M&M over the yellow M&M.

Of course, everyone has their own "better" 3d tool and the "better" figure, for that reason it is so important that there are several places, figures and tools to choose from.

adh3d posted at 6:19PM Tue, 08 March 2016 - #4259993

Of course, everyone has their own "better" 3d tool and the "better" figure, for that reason it is so important that there are several places, figures and tools to choose from.

I would agree to saying everyone has their own favorite tools, of course. But as IceEmpress said, 'better' is a very subjective word. You make a good point though that it is important to have several places... or markets. Diverse markets only make the entire market stronger. I was quite surprised with the merger of Daz and Runtimedna, mainly because my favorite characters come from Runtimedna - Chip and Cookie. I hope Redspark and Littlefox keep supporting that product line. But, while some vendors may switch over, I kind of doubt vendors with such vested interest in a product line are going to just throw their hands up and walk away.

LPR001 posted at 11:41PM Thu, 10 March 2016 - #4258416

@moriador Can you point out where Razor42 has labelled you a Daz hater please as I see no reference to it but I certainly see the claims being made that he has done so. If you have spent $2500 at Daz3D then I would think that would put you into the category of a very welcome Daz customer and I am sure Razor42 would agree.

Okay so he used the term tribe in his reference it would be up to you to place yourself into that tribe.

LOLOL. I've spent a lot more than $2500 at Daz. That amount was just in a single month.

Well, I had to use Google to search the forums because I knew that Razor42 did not use the exact term "Daz Hater" about me. He stated that I was engaging in an "US vs THEM" (Poser vs Daz) argument because I asked why someone who did not like using Poser was bothering to post in the Poser forum some very negative statements about Smith Micro along with questionable speculation as to the viability of Smith Micro's business. His statement, combined with his description of the various "tribes" posted above, would make me "Anti-Daz", which is essentially synonymous with "Daz Hater" in my mind.

Frankly, it's the labelling I object to.

Thing is, Razor felt it perfectly acceptable to accuse me personally of harassment and trolling for asking what his purpose was in posting such negative and purely speculative statements in a Poser forum thread.

But his own language is hardly gentle. Just in the process of searching for that one specific thread, I stumbled across some posts (there are many, many more than these to choose from). To wit:

"It's funny how Poser users have had an App snobbery outlook for years and years, but now they are quick to draw the same conclusion of DS users. DS for a very long time had been seen as Poser's inferior little brother. Now that DS has grown up. I see of lot of Poser users with a sneer on their face that are happy to deride anything DAZ simply because of the state of Poser. "

"don't expect to be allowed to have a reasonable discussion here about Poser's compatibility inefficiencies. all you will get is bullying and trolling no matter how diplomatically you raise an issue. That's how it rolls in here. Anyone who dares to go on and make a counter point the Poserphiles will yell "Troll,troll,troll!!!" over and over again until everyone wanders of."

"The reality is Poserphiles and SM have a personal grudge and they don't want to support these things for their customers."

"A wounded animal trusts no one and is likely to attack anyone, often for no valid reason. Seems a little like the behaviour of some of the peeps in this forum. There precious little Poser is hurt. So don't come close or ... ATTACK!!!" [emphasis added]

"If this Poser community wants to see some respect it needs to give a little too. A cornered wounded animal will bite anything, even a hand that is reaching out to help and heal it. Eventually that trait will be ultimately what leads to its demise. With some wounded animals the kindest thing that can be done is to euthanize it rather than risk oneself trying to help it." [emphasis added]

One can't call a community "a wounded animal", that ought be "euthanized" and then demand respect. It goes in both directions. One also has to give it. But given the history of Razor's posts and the threads in which he has participated, it's hard to see any evidence of that respect -- in EITHER direction.

As a result, I think he probably ought to refrain from grouping people into tribes because he can hardly be considered unbiased.

So I said you were "engaging in an "US vs THEM" (Poser vs Daz) argument" which means I am saying you are "Anti Daz" which translates to me saying you're a "Daz Hater"...

So what you're really saying here, is that I never actually did label you as a "Daz Hater"?

You then go on to further quote me out of context for dramatic effect, even modifying the quotes to that effect...

I give up. Good luck with whatever it is you're trying to achieve here, I wish you all the best.

LPR001 posted at 12:23AM Fri, 11 March 2016 - #4258416

Okay so he used the term tribe in his reference it would be up to you to place yourself into that tribe.

So as long as we talk about "people" in third person or in plural, without ever actually referring to them directly, we can say whatever we want? LOLOL.

Listen, I'm not making some sort of formal complaint about Razor, months after the fact. Sheesh, he'd have to say something a whole lot worse for me to actually expect a moderator response. If I'd been so thin skinned that I couldn't take it, I'd have pushed the "report" button. A forum spat of this nature is hardly worth worrying about.

However, all I was saying was that I do not believe that labelling people -- either specifically or using the "safe way" : in general, without naming them -- is a good idea, especially when one's labels are likely to be completely inaccurate.

For context here is the whole post where I refer to the wounded animal analogy from a nearly year old thread:

Well there's an old saying "Don't feed the Troll." If it's believed that's someone's intention is just to stir trouble why not just ignore them? Seems for as many trolls here there are just as many troll feeders, which are just as much, if not more of a problem. Also just labelling anyone who thinks differently or isn't a fully sworn in card carrying member of the Poser club as an unwanted intruder, is never a policy that fosters strength in community. Community is about inclusiveness not division. There is a pretty well spread out diversity of trolls here on both sides of the DS/Poser demarcation, it's not just one sided as some would have you believe. It's tiring hearing a well thought out systematic critique of something just to have someone retort saying "Don't be a hater, what is with you haters. We don't want your hate here." I mean in this thread I have asked numerous time what are the positives with Scarlet, do I get clear and well structured response? Or do I get venom and acid spat in my face for just being brave enough to step foot in here. If this Poser community wants to see some respect it needs to give a little too. A cornered wounded animal will bite anything, even a hand that is reaching out to help and heal it. Eventually that trait will be ultimately what leads to its demise. With some wounded animals the kindest thing that can be done is to euthanize it rather than risk oneself trying to help it.

Razor42 posted at 12:31AM Fri, 11 March 2016 - #4260368

So I said you were "engaging in an "US vs THEM" (Poser vs Daz) argument" which means I am saying you are "Anti Daz" which translates to me saying you're a "Daz Hater"...

So what you're really saying here, is that I never actually did label you as a "Daz Hater"?

You then go on to further quote me out of context for dramatic effect, even modifying the quotes to that effect...

I give up. Good luck with whatever it is you're trying to achieve here, I wish you all the best.

Dude, I'm just trying to point out that you have a habit of using very inflammatory language, particularly about Poser users. As a result, when you post about the "community", it's hard to see the caring attitude you've recently adopted as all that genuine. You've contributed to the division as well. And blaming things on some sort of tribal attitude among Poser users seems, to me, to be just more of the same divisiveness.

Edit: And you've modified posts by removing parts when quoted yourself. At least I made it clear that I added the emphasis myself.

As for the context, there is no context that justifies using such language in a forum post when you are demanding respect. Quit using such language about Poser users, and those users might be more friendly.

It seems more like you're resorting to personal attacks in attempt to invalidate an opinion you don't agree with to me...

Razor42 posted at 12:42AM Fri, 11 March 2016 - #4260374

It seems more like you're resorting to personal attacks in attempt to invalidate an opinion you don't agree with to me...

Which personal attack?

Hmm, maybe this will help.

ad hominem (Personal attack)

Abusive ad hominem usually involves attacking the traits of an opponent as a means to invalidate their argument(s). Equating someone's character with the soundness of their argument is a logical fallacy. (1)

Please quote the personal attacks on you.

By the way, demonstrating that someone is not unbiased is NOT ad hominem.

So are we discussing the points I have made here in my initial post? Or am I defending myself, my credibility, my genuinity, my apparent "bias", the context of unrelated statements made nearly a year ago in an entirely different thread. And being told when I can and I can't say under your moderation, rather than that of the TOS and the actual forum moderators?

Really, I'm not sure what you're driving at with this...

Razor42 posted at 1:00AM Fri, 11 March 2016 - #4260379

So are we discussing the points I have made here in my initial post? Or am I defending myself, my credibility, my genuinity, my apparent "bias", the context of unrelated statements made nearly a year ago in an entirely different thread. And being told when I can and I can't say under your moderation, rather than that of the TOS and the actual forum moderators?

Really, I'm not sure what you're driving at with this...

As far as I'm concerned, you can say anything you want. Feel completely free. It's no skin off my nose. Your posting history shows that you're not shy about giving your opinions. So go ahead. Why you think I'd try to "moderate" you, I don't know. I AM disagreeing with you. As far as I know, the TOS permits that.

However, I am offering you this very simple advice: if you want to be respected by Poser users, don't use inflammatory language when you talk about Poser users. I don't think there's anything controversial or difficult to understand about this. I'm not telling you not to speak that way about us. Go right ahead. The TOS apparently permits it as long as you talk about us as a group. But I am suggesting that you should probably not expect to get a positive response from us if you do.

The relevance to this thread: Your description of Poser "tribes" is disparaging and potentially inflammatory. And blaming the problems in the community upon these "tribes" --if they even exist as you describe them -- is only half the story, at most.