Qaz's original question and the discussion stemming from it are being reposted here, and removed from the LaFemme thread in the Poser forum. Any further discussion of it is to be posted in this thread and not in the other thread.

QAZ's original post::

Ok, this is going to come across as figure bashing, but that is not my intention. This is an awesome figure. It is easy to make morphs for, it bends well, the HD morphs are great, BUT there is a big problem in the face department. It is not a good base for creating new characters. I have tried to create a better base, but so far failed - see results below. Her brows are too high physically (not the eyebrow texture as someone suggested), The eyes are too large and in the wrong position. The poor girl is cross eyed. The girl has a jaw a Neanderthal would be proud of. Women's jaws are small due to lack of testosterone. These are mostly correctable, but the low density mesh makes it difficult. The mouth though is a real problem. It looks like it belongs on a puppet. There are holes on either side of her mouth. I have failed to correct them. The success of this figure will depend on getting this sorted out. Now it may be that only HD morphs are going to fix this, and I believe BH said he was going to show how they can be created. Also I can't at present move the eyeballs independent of the face. Is that to do with switching off JCMs or something ? I'm more than happy to share this for free, if I get some help. I want this to succeed, but we need to get the most important part of her body up to V4 levels.

QAZ

Latest Iteration. Can someone help me fix the eyes and mouth ?

Nails60:

Have you injected the face morphs from the pose library? These are part of the base package and have adjustments for the items you mention, eye size, eye position, brow up/down, chin weak strong and other chin parameters. And to move the eyes independently just select the individual eye and move as required.

Qaz

You try it. Move the eye or control handles and it moves the face as well. What I want is to switch that off so eyes move on their own. You can move the teeth on their own, There some kind switch that I need to disengage.

Qaz:

Ah, Found it. xyz offset which are hidden dials. Weird thing is that it worked at first and now doesn't. Turn dial, nothing happens. Worked a minute ago. Anyone seen that before ?

Bantha:

qaz posted at 6:16AM Mon, 11 February 2019 - #4345810

You try it. Move the eye or control handles and it moves the face as well. What I want is to switch that off so eyes move on their own. You can move the teeth on their own, There some kind switch that I need to disengage.

I don't get what you want. There are morphs to move the eye, but of course they move the face as well. Only moving the eye will leave you with blank holes. If you want to move the eyes, select one eye and use the translate dials to move it, as with any other figure. Maybe you need to acivate "Show hidden dials" (may be named differently, I'm not at my computer right now) to make them visible. At least that is what I would expect.

Or do I get something wrong?

Bantha:

Oh, so you found it. Offset sounds wrong to me, translate does not work?

Blackhearted:

qaz posted at 6:15AM Mon, 11 February 2019 - #4345806

Ok, this is going to come across as figure bashing, but that is not my intention. This is an awesome figure. It is easy to make morphs for, it bends well, the HD morphs are great, BUT there is a big problem in the face department. It is not a good base for creating new characters. I have tried to create a better base, but so far failed - see results below. Her brows are too high physically (not the eyebrow texture as someone suggested), The eyes are too large and in the wrong position. The poor girl is cross eyed. The girl has a jaw a Neanderthal would be proud of. Women's jaws are small due to lack of testosterone. These are mostly correctable, but the low density mesh makes it difficult. The mouth though is a real problem. It looks like it belongs on a puppet. There are holes on either side of her mouth. I have failed to correct them. The success of this figure will depend on getting this sorted out. Now it may be that only HD morphs are going to fix this, and I believe BH said he was going to show how they can be created. Also I can't at present move the eyeballs independent of the face. Is that to do with switching off JCMs or something ? I'm more than happy to share this for free, if I get some help. I want this to succeed, but we need to get the most important part of her body up to V4 levels.

This is a 100% subjective opinion that reads like a total bash post whether you 'intended' to or not. Her 'success' depends on correcting her 'neanderthal jaw'? Not sure how on earth that's not a bash post?

Look at the image I just posted. People have different sized eyes, and I'm not even going to post a pic of Anne Hathaway because that would be too easy (AFAIK she is a human being). LaFemme's eyes are smaller than V4's eyes. Eyes focus on objects and are always slightly crossed depending on what distance object they are focused on. Her base eye geometry is 100% perpendicular. There's a 'cross eyes' dial which can be dialed in either direction to focus them. If she's crosseyed in your renders that's user error. Like I posted earlier noone should be using 'point at - main camera', thats a very lazy way of posing eyes and always results in the 'dead eyed' poser look.

Those 'holes on the side of her mouth'? It's called a commissure, and people have them. Lips don't just sprout forward from the surface of the face.

When you select a body handle there are two sets of side-side/twist/bend dials that do totally separate things: try them. If you use the move tool and just drag the handles around that moves one set of dials, the other has to be changed via dials. For example if you select the corner of the mouth and move the chip around it's changing the twist/narrow-wide/up-down dials and influences the cheek as well, if you go into the parameter dials for the chip and change the right-left/lower-raise/in-out dials you get a totally different kind of control. Add the 140 injectable morphs and there is little you can't do with it. There are morphs included that can raise or lower the brow however you like, or you could simply grab the body handles and lower it.

The funny thing is if you compare her base head to V4 they are actually similar in proportions:

One notable difference is that LaFemme's eyes are deeper set. If you don't prefer that look then it's easier to address than any figure to this point since you can just select the eye and use the depth/height/shift dial to set it up the way you'd like - that also moves everything else including her eyelids/lashes/tearline/etc. And (I'm starting to sound like a broken record here) there are also morphs included that do this.

It's a base figure. I've been morphing figures for nearly 20 years and her base shape and mesh resolution reflects exactly what I would like to work on as a base if I'm morphing a figure. It's very flexible, a huge amount of morphs are already included, and I'll be working on an HD morphing tutorial just as soon as my mic arrives (I'm sure noone wants to listen to me on my tinny laptop mic).

If you need help changing something I'm happy to help (time permitting), and I'm sure Denise is too. "Hey, I prefer a weaker chin, can you help me out?". Id have sent you a morph already instead of posting this.

But passing off a subjective personal preference as 'this is a grotesque error that needs immediate fixing or the figure will fail' is not exactly constructive, nor will it illicit a constructive response. Especially when it's in reference to a free figure that people are supporting in their free time.

Qaz:

bantha posted at 9:08AM Mon, 11 February 2019 - #4345815

Oh, so you found it. Offset sounds wrong to me, translate does not work?

Yes it didnt work. I do indeed need translate.

qaz posted at 6:15AM Mon, 11 February 2019 - #4345806

Ok, this is going to come across as figure bashing, but that is not my intention. This is an awesome figure. It is easy to make morphs for, it bends well, the HD morphs are great, BUT there is a big problem in the face department. It is not a good base for creating new characters. I have tried to create a better base, but so far failed - see results below. Her brows are too high physically (not the eyebrow texture as someone suggested), The eyes are too large and in the wrong position. The poor girl is cross eyed. The girl has a jaw a Neanderthal would be proud of. Women's jaws are small due to lack of testosterone. These are mostly correctable, but the low density mesh makes it difficult. The mouth though is a real problem. It looks like it belongs on a puppet. There are holes on either side of her mouth. I have failed to correct them. The success of this figure will depend on getting this sorted out. Now it may be that only HD morphs are going to fix this, and I believe BH said he was going to show how they can be created. Also I can't at present move the eyeballs independent of the face. Is that to do with switching off JCMs or something ? I'm more than happy to share this for free, if I get some help. I want this to succeed, but we need to get the most important part of her body up to V4 levels.

This is a 100% subjective opinion that reads like a total bash post whether you 'intended' to or not. Her 'success' depends on correcting her 'neanderthal jaw'? Not sure how on earth that's not a bash post?

Look at the image I just posted. People have different sized eyes, and I'm not even going to post a pic of Anne Hathaway because that would be too easy (AFAIK she is a human being). LaFemme's eyes are smaller than V4's eyes. Eyes focus on objects and are always slightly crossed depending on what distance object they are focused on. Her base eye geometry is 100% perpendicular. There's a 'cross eyes' dial which can be dialed in either direction to focus them. If she's crosseyed in your renders that's user error. Like I posted earlier noone should be using 'point at - main camera', thats a very lazy way of posing eyes and always results in the 'dead eyed' poser look.

Those 'holes on the side of her mouth'? It's called a commissure, and people have them. Lips don't just sprout forward from the surface of the face.

When you select a body handle there are two sets of side-side/twist/bend dials that do totally separate things: try them. If you use the move tool and just drag the handles around that moves one set of dials, the other has to be changed via dials. For example if you select the corner of the mouth and move the chip around it's changing the twist/narrow-wide/up-down dials and influences the cheek as well, if you go into the parameter dials for the chip and change the right-left/lower-raise/in-out dials you get a totally different kind of control. Add the 140 injectable morphs and there is little you can't do with it. There are morphs included that can raise or lower the brow however you like, or you could simply grab the body handles and lower it.

The funny thing is if you compare her base head to V4 they are actually similar in proportions:

v4 head.jpg

One notable difference is that LaFemme's eyes are deeper set. If you don't prefer that look then it's easier to address than any figure to this point since you can just select the eye and use the depth/height/shift dial to set it up the way you'd like - that also moves everything else including her eyelids/lashes/tearline/etc. And (I'm starting to sound like a broken record here) there are also morphs included that do this.

It's a base figure. I've been morphing figures for nearly 20 years and her base shape and mesh resolution reflects exactly what I would like to work on as a base if I'm morphing a figure. It's very flexible, a huge amount of morphs are already included, and I'll be working on an HD morphing tutorial just as soon as my mic arrives (I'm sure noone wants to listen to me on my tinny laptop mic).

If you need help changing something I'm happy to help (time permitting), and I'm sure Denise is too. "Hey, I prefer a weaker chin, can you help me out?". Id have sent you a morph already instead of posting this.

But passing off a subjective personal preference as 'this is a grotesque error that needs immediate fixing or the figure will fail' is not exactly constructive, nor will it illicit a constructive response. Especially when it's in reference to a free figure that people are supporting in their free time.

So, yes my opinion is subjective. I am however trying to be constructive. Some will agree with me, some will not. Here is a character with fairly exaggerated face proportions. First face is V4 out of the box. Eyes too big, eyes too wide, face too wide, The last face is the one I'm trying to create, but the face proportions are way to individual to be any use a base. What i want is the middle one as a base for figure development. AVERAGE facial proportions. In my opinion for what its worth, I think the proportions of la femme are closer to the one on the right. For La Femme to be a success for me, I need to be able to recreate (nay, improve on !) the character on the right. Is this possible ? Can you help me ?

Deecey

qaz posted at 11:08AM Mon, 11 February 2019 - #4345832

Blackhearted posted at 9:10AM Mon, 11 February 2019 - #4345817

qaz posted at 6:15AM Mon, 11 February 2019 - #4345806

Ok, this is going to come across as figure bashing, but that is not my intention. This is an awesome figure. It is easy to make morphs for, it bends well, the HD morphs are great, BUT there is a big problem in the face department. It is not a good base for creating new characters. I have tried to create a better base, but so far failed - see results below. Her brows are too high physically (not the eyebrow texture as someone suggested), The eyes are too large and in the wrong position. The poor girl is cross eyed. The girl has a jaw a Neanderthal would be proud of. Women's jaws are small due to lack of testosterone. These are mostly correctable, but the low density mesh makes it difficult. The mouth though is a real problem. It looks like it belongs on a puppet. There are holes on either side of her mouth. I have failed to correct them. The success of this figure will depend on getting this sorted out. Now it may be that only HD morphs are going to fix this, and I believe BH said he was going to show how they can be created. Also I can't at present move the eyeballs independent of the face. Is that to do with switching off JCMs or something ? I'm more than happy to share this for free, if I get some help. I want this to succeed, but we need to get the most important part of her body up to V4 levels.

This is a 100% subjective opinion that reads like a total bash post whether you 'intended' to or not. Her 'success' depends on correcting her 'neanderthal jaw'? Not sure how on earth that's not a bash post?

Look at the image I just posted. People have different sized eyes, and I'm not even going to post a pic of Anne Hathaway because that would be too easy (AFAIK she is a human being). LaFemme's eyes are smaller than V4's eyes. Eyes focus on objects and are always slightly crossed depending on what distance object they are focused on. Her base eye geometry is 100% perpendicular. There's a 'cross eyes' dial which can be dialed in either direction to focus them. If she's crosseyed in your renders that's user error. Like I posted earlier noone should be using 'point at - main camera', thats a very lazy way of posing eyes and always results in the 'dead eyed' poser look.

Those 'holes on the side of her mouth'? It's called a commissure, and people have them. Lips don't just sprout forward from the surface of the face.

When you select a body handle there are two sets of side-side/twist/bend dials that do totally separate things: try them. If you use the move tool and just drag the handles around that moves one set of dials, the other has to be changed via dials. For example if you select the corner of the mouth and move the chip around it's changing the twist/narrow-wide/up-down dials and influences the cheek as well, if you go into the parameter dials for the chip and change the right-left/lower-raise/in-out dials you get a totally different kind of control. Add the 140 injectable morphs and there is little you can't do with it. There are morphs included that can raise or lower the brow however you like, or you could simply grab the body handles and lower it.

The funny thing is if you compare her base head to V4 they are actually similar in proportions:

v4 head.jpg

One notable difference is that LaFemme's eyes are deeper set. If you don't prefer that look then it's easier to address than any figure to this point since you can just select the eye and use the depth/height/shift dial to set it up the way you'd like - that also moves everything else including her eyelids/lashes/tearline/etc. And (I'm starting to sound like a broken record here) there are also morphs included that do this.

It's a base figure. I've been morphing figures for nearly 20 years and her base shape and mesh resolution reflects exactly what I would like to work on as a base if I'm morphing a figure. It's very flexible, a huge amount of morphs are already included, and I'll be working on an HD morphing tutorial just as soon as my mic arrives (I'm sure noone wants to listen to me on my tinny laptop mic).

If you need help changing something I'm happy to help (time permitting), and I'm sure Denise is too. "Hey, I prefer a weaker chin, can you help me out?". Id have sent you a morph already instead of posting this.

But passing off a subjective personal preference as 'this is a grotesque error that needs immediate fixing or the figure will fail' is not exactly constructive, nor will it illicit a constructive response. Especially when it's in reference to a free figure that people are supporting in their free time.

So, yes my opinion is subjective. I am however trying to be constructive. Some will agree with me, some will not. Here is a character with fairly exaggerated face proportions. First face is V4 out of the box. Eyes too big, eyes too wide, face too wide, The last face is the one I'm trying to create, but the face proportions are way to individual to be any use a base. What i want is the middle one as a base for figure development. AVERAGE facial proportions. In my opinion for what its worth, I think the proportions of la femme are closer to the one on the right. For La Femme to be a success for me, I need to be able to recreate (nay, improve on !) the character on the right. Is this possible ? Can you help me ? comparison 2.jpg

It is a BASE model. There are over 140 face morphs included with La Femme. Look in the Pose folder for the injectors.

To edit the base model geometry at this point will not only affect any content and morphs that have already been created for inclusion with the figure, but could also affect content created by vendors since she has been released.

And to be honest, if you think the one on the right is exaggerated, I suggest you check out Scarlett Johannsen photos because that was the first real person that came to mind with that morph.

PS ... according to my DNA results I am 2% neanderthal. LMAO

Blackheartedqaz posted at 10:11AM Mon, 11 February 2019 - #4345832

So, yes my opinion is subjective. I am however trying to be constructive. Some will agree with me, some will not. Here is a character with fairly exaggerated face proportions. First face is V4 out of the box. Eyes too big, eyes too wide, face too wide, The last face is the one I'm trying to create, but the face proportions are way to individual to be any use a base. What i want is the middle one as a base for figure development. AVERAGE facial proportions. In my opinion for what its worth, I think the proportions of la femme are closer to the one on the right. For La Femme to be a success for me, I need to be able to recreate (nay, improve on !) the character on the right. Is this possible ? Can you help me ? comparison 2.jpg

Sure, but you'd make my job easier if you morphed it at least part of the way with the dials and face chips.

I will say though that those brows are startlingly low. I won't say impossibly low because there are over 7 billion people on this planet, but they're low. You seem to be going for a Scarlet Johansson kindof look but even hers aren't that low. That is definitely not 'average' and there would be no room to do any upper eyelid/eye morphs under that.

But if that's what you want and it's not achievable with dials then send it over and I'll help you out.

Qaz:

Blackhearted posted at 10:33AM Mon, 11 February 2019 - #4345843

qaz posted at 10:11AM Mon, 11 February 2019 - #4345832

So, yes my opinion is subjective. I am however trying to be constructive. Some will agree with me, some will not. Here is a character with fairly exaggerated face proportions. First face is V4 out of the box. Eyes too big, eyes too wide, face too wide, The last face is the one I'm trying to create, but the face proportions are way to individual to be any use a base. What i want is the middle one as a base for figure development. AVERAGE facial proportions. In my opinion for what its worth, I think the proportions of la femme are closer to the one on the right. For La Femme to be a success for me, I need to be able to recreate (nay, improve on !) the character on the right. Is this possible ? Can you help me ? comparison 2.jpg

Sure, but you'd make my job easier if you morphed it at least part of the way with the dials and face chips.

I will say though that those brows are startlingly low. I won't say impossibly low because there are over 7 billion people on this planet, but they're low. You seem to be going for a Scarlet Johansson kindof look but even hers aren't that low. That is definitely not 'average' and there would be no room to do any upper eyelid/eye morphs under that.

But if that's what you want and it's not achievable with dials then send it over and I'll help you out.

They really are that low, and you could cut yourself on her cheeks. That chin is just ridiculous ! I'm not really getting my point across. Yes I agree that the middle figure is not a good base. It's just a half way point between standard v4 and the complete morph. The brows are so low that even the average is "off" A decent base would have the eyebrows higher and the lips and chin wider. The Scarlett you see is a combination of dial spins and a morph I created in a separate program.

Now, I'm not looking to recreate her in La Femme just yet. I want to know what I need to do to recreate morphs like this in La Femme. I want to get to see if I can get a base that I am happy with. I need to be able to position eyes and mouth in morph creation software (like Zbrush, though I don't use Zbrush) and then move eyes, teeth, tongue to fit afterwards. I have been spoiled in having a high density mesh to sculpt with (V4) and I am failing to make the adjustments I want in base resolution La Femme, so I'm keen to see how you can create HD morphs. Cheers

Letterworks:

The answer to making that face morph is to take LsFemme into ZBrush (or the d=modeler or your choice) and go to work using front and side views. To me the idea of having a BASE figure modelled to YOUR specific idea of facial beauty for this figure is not only ludicrous but an insult to the rest of us who like the figure as is, or more importantly, what we CAN do with it. If you want a specific person recreated than do so, heck you might even be able to sell the morph when you are done. Personally I find only a few people that can successfully set out to morph to a living person and get it as close as you are asking for... and none that do it with included dials

Qaz:

I don't think people are reading what I wrote. I want the figure to be a success. I have offered to come up with my version of an 'average' face and offer it to the community for free. Take it or leave it. If you don't use it fine. Yes beauty is in the eye of the beholder = actually no it isn't . A baby will pay more attention to an attractive face than an ugly one. We all know the difference between ugly and attractive, it's encoded in our genes. And guess what, an attractive face is an average face. If you took all peoples faces with their different proportions and took an average of all of them, you would be looking at a beautiful face.

Blackhearted:

qaz posted at 12:38PM Mon, 11 February 2019 - #4345857

I don't think people are reading what I wrote. I want the figure to be a success. I have offered to come up with my version of an 'average' face and offer it to the community for free. Take it or leave it. If you don't use it fine. Yes beauty is in the eye of the beholder = actually no it isn't . A baby will pay more attention to an attractive face than an ugly one. We all know the difference between ugly and attractive, it's encoded in our genes. And guess what, an attractive face is an average face. If you took all peoples faces with their different proportions and took an average of all of them, you would be looking at a beautiful face.

No worries - but just consider that not all of us think that Scarlet Johansson has the ideal female face, nor would her face be ideal for a base because brows that low would limit any eye morph options considerably.

Qaz:

Deecey posted at 12:38PM Mon, 11 February 2019 - #4345859

Here's the thing about Scarlett Johannsen.

She has EXTREMELY exaggerated facial features. And the other challenge about creating an accurate morph for her is her face shape has changed over the years. If you look at her younger pictures her face is softer. As she is aging, it's getting more angular. If you want an accurate morph of Scarlett, just finding good consistent photo references is a huge challenge.

As far as "Is it easier to create Scarlett in V4", no, not really. There are two images in my gallery of an attempt I made in 2007, and even that morph took me three days.

Three days. With V4.

Earliest attempt here:

Scarlett 1

Final attempt here:

Scarlett 2

Given the challenge I've stated above, with the strength of her features and the difficulty in finding a set of photo references from the same date, Scarlett morphs prove to be challenging with any model .... even V4.

Oh ... and because of her exaggerated features the morphs won't stop there. You'll need custom smiles, custom phonemes, custom expressions. BECAUSE her face is so strong.

I'm banging on against a brick wall. The only reason I picked Scarlett is that she was in many ways much like la femme in facial proportions. Far from the average. Not normal. Yes Scarlett is an awesome challenge to create a morph for. I didn't say it was easier in V4. I'm in no position to say. It is certainly possible, because poof there it is. I have no idea whether it is possible in La Femme - i'd like to think that it is. It's down to you to help me find out. Yes people lose fat in their faces as they age - they look different. My versions of Buffy ( S M Gellar) and Wonder Woman (Lynda Carter) are based on their younger versions (more sub cutaneous fat).

Blackhearted

qaz posted at 1:08PM Mon, 11 February 2019 - #4345864

Yes Scarlett is an awesome challenge to create a morph for. I didn't say it was easier in V4. I'm in no position to say. It is certainly possible, because poof there it is. I have no idea whether it is possible in La Femme - i'd like to think that it is. It's down to you to help me find out. Yes people lose fat in their faces as they age - they look different. My versions of Buffy ( S M Gellar) and Wonder Woman (Lynda Carter) are based on their younger versions (more sub cutaneous fat).

With all due respect it's not down to us to do anything. Renderosity provided a base figure for the community, with far more included controls and than any base figure to date, its up to you guys to take that in whatever direction you choose.

If someone is struggling to make, say, a certain chin shape and says 'hey, I just can't get this shape with the included dials/body handles/scaling' then I'll help out, but I work 16-18 hr days, I'm not here to do everything for everyone.

Deecey

qaz posted at 2:29PM Mon, 11 February 2019 - #4345864

I'm banging on against a brick wall. The only reason I picked Scarlett is that she was in many ways much like la femme in facial proportions. Far from the average. Not normal. Yes Scarlett is an awesome challenge to create a morph for. I didn't say it was easier in V4. I'm in no position to say. It is certainly possible, because poof there it is. I have no idea whether it is possible in La Femme - i'd like to think that it is. It's down to you to help me find out. Yes people lose fat in their faces as they age - they look different. My versions of Buffy ( S M Gellar) and Wonder Woman (Lynda Carter) are based on their younger versions (more sub cutaneous fat).

But we have already pointed out that La Femme comes with over 140 face morphs that can assist you in creating a wide variety of face shapes. Play with them, and you WILL find out what you need to know. In fact, the morph you initially created as your "neutral base" can easily be achieved with morphs that are already included with La Femme. The differences aren't that great.

So in some respects it feels like there is head banging going on with both sides here. Something appears to be getting lost in communication here.

Qaz:

Beauty. Not difficult really.

DreaminGirl

qaz posted at 9:25PM Mon, 11 February 2019 - #4345875

Beauty. Not difficult really.

I disagree. Lips are too big, eyebrows too thick, and ears too weird to be MY ideal of beauty. YMMV ;)

On a related note, my own eyebrows are even lower than Scarlet Johansson. Makes makeup a real pain

**Deecey:**qaz posted at 5:01PM Mon, 11 February 2019 - #4345875

Beauty. Not difficult really.

Included face morphs. Not difficult really.

With that, I'm out of this discussion.

RandyM77

Deecey posted at 4:36PM Mon, 11 February 2019 - #4345884

qaz posted at 5:01PM Mon, 11 February 2019 - #4345875

Beauty. Not difficult really.

Included face morphs. Not difficult really.

face morphs.jpg

With that, I'm out of this discussion.

With the right texture, that would be pretty close. She looks kind of like Ivanka Trump.

Qaz:

randym77 posted at 6:57PM Mon, 11 February 2019 - #4345890

Deecey posted at 4:36PM Mon, 11 February 2019 - #4345884

qaz posted at 5:01PM Mon, 11 February 2019 - #4345875

Beauty. Not difficult really.

Included face morphs. Not difficult really.

face morphs.jpg

With that, I'm out of this discussion.

With the right texture, that would be pretty close. She looks kind of like Ivanka Trump.

And that's what she should look like with all dials set to zero. So what's the argument ?

DreaminGirl:

qaz posted at 12:07PM Tue, 12 February 2019 - #4345898

And that's what she should look like with all dials set to zero. So what's the argument ?

Because your idea of beauty is not everyone elses idea of beauty. You want that face, get some elbow grease and make it yourself.

Bantha

qaz posted at 5:36AM Tue, 12 February 2019 - #4345898

And that's what she should look like with all dials set to zero. So what's the argument ?

I missed this before. Why is it important how a figure's default state is? Do you, ever, render V4 in her default state? All dials to zero?

The base isn't meant to be obviously gorgeous. It's meant to be flexible. Play with the included dials, there are plenty. Work with the Morph brush. Look if one of the characters in the Marketplace come close to what you want. Ask for a Morph, if you cannot make one yourself.

Qaz

DreaminGirl posted at 6:40AM Tue, 12 February 2019 - #4345918

qaz posted at 12:07PM Tue, 12 February 2019 - #4345898

And that's what she should look like with all dials set to zero. So what's the argument ?

Because your idea of beauty is not everyone elses idea of beauty. You want that face, get some elbow grease and make it yourself.

It's not my idea of beauty. Its the planet's idea of beauty that is in complete agreement. Billions of peoples idea of beauty. They agree completely. We are so sure what it is we have derived a mathematical formula to express it. It's called the golden ratio.

Blackhearted

qaz posted at 7:10AM Tue, 12 February 2019 - #4345921

DreaminGirl posted at 6:40AM Tue, 12 February 2019 - #4345918

qaz posted at 12:07PM Tue, 12 February 2019 - #4345898

And that's what she should look like with all dials set to zero. So what's the argument ?

Because your idea of beauty is not everyone elses idea of beauty. You want that face, get some elbow grease and make it yourself.

It's not my idea of beauty. Its the planet's idea of beauty that is in complete agreement. Billions of peoples idea of beauty. They agree completely. We are so sure what it is we have derived a mathematical formula to express it. It's called the golden ratio.

golden ratio.jpg

All your arguments went out the window when you tried to 'golden ratio' Kim Kardashian. That woman is absolutely vile and there is not an inch of her that is 'natural'.

We get it, you think certain celebs are pretty. Great! So make them, we've already provided plenty of tools to do so and the rest are there in Poser. The base is not going to be changed to look like Scarlet Johansson or Kim Kardashian. It's a neutral base shape specifically so that people can have complete freedom to morph their personal idea of a pretty face out of it.

Bantha:

qaz posted at 7:51AM Tue, 12 February 2019 - #4345921

It's not my idea of beauty. Its the planet's idea of beauty that is in complete agreement. Billions of peoples idea of beauty. They agree completely. We are so sure what it is we have derived a mathematical formula to express it. It's called the golden ratio.

The golden ratio can be found in many places of the human body, the body, the face. It's simply not true that every face that is very close to this ratio is beautifull for everyone and every step away make it ugly. There is research about this, the results I know of say that People tend to like symmetrical faces as well as faces which are average in their biological context. Read Here

Blackhearted is selling his GND Morphs well so I guess he knows what the community likes. And, again, who cares about the factory default? Why should you render La Femme without changing her face? You can move the mouth, the eyes, the ears, the nose all with the included morphs. Make your perfect golden ratio face. If it's just the ratio, you will easily get to 99%.

Qaz

Deecey posted at 9:53AM Tue, 12 February 2019 - #4345938

At this stage of the game, the issue goes far beyond the "golden ratio" and the idea of what is or is not beautiful.

Let's say we change the shape of the face. What types of issues would that cause? Using the morph I created above as an example, here is what I see ....

--- it will affect weight mapping of the face chips, especially around the eyes and eyelids. That would all have to be rechecked and smoothed out.

--- It will affect the appearance of every face morph (over 140 of them in the base, as well as characters already created by vendors), each of which would have to be rechecked and edited if necessary to accommodate the changes in the eye, nose, and mouth shapes.

--- It will affect the phoneme morphs, each of which will need adjustment to accomodate the changes in the mouth.

--- It will affect every high resolution morph in unpredictable ways, a bug which was exposed and reported to Smith Micro during development of La Femme.

For these issues, there is absolutely no argument relating to how how much work will be required to change the base shape. We tried to address the default hand shape in the base, and that was when we discovered the issue with high resolution morphs that was reported to SM. That is why we had to provide the Hands Smooth morph as an additional morph -- Gabe's high resolution morphs were well underway at the time and it was the only option we had to smooth the hand shape out.

ANY changes to the base shape will involve a lot more work than just replacing the OBJ, and if we did there would be a lot more people complaining than one person who wants the base shape fixed.

There are more than enough morphs to create a wide variety of faces there. That's what they were made for.

Which is fair enough. But there are enough known issues that at some point a version 2 is likely to come out. It took years before Dawn SE came out to correct issues (including the face shape, which was far too masculine) which by then was a bit too late.

Now we know that the face chips should not be used for face modelling. They are there for expressions. So if you are going to go for a unique character, say as a vendor, you are going to have use a sculpting prog, or dial spin and create a face injection morph. What you are suggesting is that the face chips and including face morphs will no longer work if you do that ? So pointless Vendors coming up with new characters ? It has already been suggested by BH that if you want to create a new character you should use the DEV rig. OK then. So what would be the complete process that a Vendor would need to go through to complete a figure ?

Blackhearted:

qaz posted at 10:48AM Tue, 12 February 2019 - #4345942

Which is fair enough. But there are enough known issues that at some point a version 2 is likely to come out. It took years before Dawn SE came out to correct issues (including the face shape, which was far too masculine) which by then was a bit too late.

For the very last time, the fact that her base head shape does not look like Scarlet Johansson is not a 'known issue', nor will it ever be 'fixed'.

Actual feedback is being taken into account though so Shane's hand weight map tweak, the iris flat morph+corneas, etc are going in the base for sure. If you guys find any face morphs that are lacking - for example 'I cannot make this chin shape with any combination of scaling/included morphs' then Denise or I will probably add those too.

Blackhearted:

RobZhena posted at 10:53AM Tue, 12 February 2019 - #4345941

You have been more than courteous to @qaz. Hmm. What do you get if you flip the q upside down?

Hah, I didn't notice that.

Either way it's best to get the preference thing out of the way. It's a base. There's a $#!@ton of redistributable morphs included, fully working scaling, body handles, etc -- so if someone doesn't like it, change it. Then give that change away, sell it, or keep it for yourself and gloat. You're free to do either.

Bantha:

qaz posted at 10:33AM Tue, 12 February 2019 - #4345942

Which is fair enough. But there are enough known issues that at some point a version 2 is likely to come out. It took years before Dawn SE came out to correct issues (including the face shape, which was far too masculine) which by then was a bit too late.

Now we know that the face chips should not be used for face modelling. They are there for expressions. So if you are going to go for a unique character, say as a vendor, you are going to have use a sculpting prog, or dial spin and create a face injection morph. What you are suggesting is that the face chips and including face morphs will no longer work if you do that ? So pointless Vendors coming up with new characters ? It has already been suggested by BH that if you want to create a new character you should use the DEV rig. OK then. So what would be the complete process that a Vendor would need to go through to complete a figure ?

I don't know who "We" is. For me and for others it was pretty obvious that the face Chips are for expressions. Face rigs are usually used for that. Obviously the face chips still work if you use morps. I used them im my last render. But the weight maps don't change if you morph the base. To get the same movements as before, you would have to redo the weight map, because the geometry they refer to have changed. If you add a morph, this change won't occur, since the base did not change.

If you have a more extreme morph, the chips just may work in an unexpected way. Which is, by the way, even more the case if you use morphed expressions. I can create a character morph for La Femme. I will have to check how the expressions work. If there are Problems with expressions, I should create some expression morphs myself, to go with my figure, otherwhise the figure will look less like my character and more like the base when I load an expression.

Pointless vendors come up with new characters? There are already characters in the Marketplace, obviously it's not that pointless.

Could you, pretty please, stop trolling the thread here? Stop misinterpreting everything what was said here? If you are happy with V4, fine. If you want to use La Femme, fine as well. But why don't you just try things out for yourself ?

The base shape won't change, because morphs would not work anymore. Same thing on all poser figures. You don't like the base version? Morph yourself one you like, make it a full body morph, save the version with this morph dialled to one. Problem solved.

Why are you implying that things, which were already shown here in the thread, won't work?

Qaz:

Blackhearted posted at 11:12AM Tue, 12 February 2019 - #4345945

RobZhena posted at 10:53AM Tue, 12 February 2019 - #4345941

You have been more than courteous to @qaz. Hmm. What do you get if you flip the q upside down?

Hah, I didn't notice that.

Either way it's best to get the preference thing out of the way. It's a base. There's a $#!@ton of redistributable morphs included, fully working scaling, body handles, etc -- so if someone doesn't like it, change it. Then give that change away, sell it, or keep it for yourself and gloat. You're free to do either.

Which of course, was what I said I was attempting to do from the beginning, I just wanted help, although Deecey now claims that creating a new character is damn near impossible. And for the LAST time, I never ever ever said Scarlett J should be the default shape, in fact the very OPPOSITE. Just an average human head.

Qaz:

Look, people, lets get a few things sorted out.

I never said I wanted to change the base shape. My efforts from the beginning was to create a useful starting base by means of the application of a FACE MORPH. Go on, find where I said that you needed to change the actual figure.

I never said that the base (injection morph ) should look like Scarlett J. Exactly the opposite. Just an average head. You know, one where the forehead doesn't stick out, or the jaw is too big and has actual nostrils. That kind of thing. I think some people would find that useful. I certainly would.

Deecey comes up with a reasonable facial base by use of morphs and no doubt facial control chips, and then says it wont work. Sorry, why ? Can't you use that to create an injection morph ??

Deecey:

qaz posted at 1:36PM Tue, 12 February 2019 - #4345962

And guess what - with an injection morphs all dials are set to zero !

Not true. If all morph dials are set to zero, you get ... the base shape.

Qaz:

Deecey posted at 12:51PM Tue, 12 February 2019 - #4345964

qaz posted at 1:36PM Tue, 12 February 2019 - #4345962

And guess what - with an injection morphs all dials are set to zero !

Not true. If all morph dials are set to zero, you get ... the base shape.

Ok, the injection dial is set to 1. All the other dials are zero.

**Deecey:**qaz posted at 1:55PM Tue, 12 February 2019 - #4345966

Deecey posted at 12:51PM Tue, 12 February 2019 - #4345964

qaz posted at 1:36PM Tue, 12 February 2019 - #4345962

And guess what - with an injection morphs all dials are set to zero !

Not true. If all morph dials are set to zero, you get ... the base shape.

Ok, the injection dial is set to 1. All the other dials are zero.

Exactly. Now perhaps you understand the point of confusion. Not being sensitive at all. I was trying to help all along. But the miscommunication resulted in how each of us were defining "BASE".

TheDarkerSideOfArt:

I think maybe he meant all dials except the actual morph dial that's created. But if that is what you meant then just export her into your favorite program and reshape her.

? People who shine from within don't need the spotlight ?

Qaz:

Well, so far I have received nothing but grief from this board, but I will try again. As I have stated, I want to create a face shape for La Femme that I can use as a base for further character development. This is a WIP of project ULRIKA. I just thought she looked Swedish. So far I've tried to produce an average face without straying too far away from the La Femme original geometry. I promise she will be worth every penny/cent you pay for her, because you will not find her in the store. She is going to be FREE. However, I first need to sort out the problems to do with the way the figure is constructed - with animatable joint centers etc. Firstly Blackhearted has said in the manual that there is a problem in Poser. In order to match centers to morphs, you have to first create a full body morph so that the morph is in the body actor. Fine, except when I right click on that morph, I do not get the option to match centers to morph. Any other morph, no problem, full body morph - fail. See pic below. Now, I know this should put the control handles in the right place, but I'm not sure about the eyes and mouth. It's easy enough to move teeth and tongue using translate dials, but there is no translate dial for the eyes. (I've used x offset to position so far) The one that is there moves the whole face with the eyes. Ability to scale the eyes would be useful as well. Any thoughts ?

Deecey:

qaz posted at 12:23PM Sun, 17 February 2019 - #4346321

Well, so far I have received nothing but grief from this board, but I will try again. As I have stated, I want to create a face shape for La Femme that I can use as a base for further character development. This is a WIP of project ULRIKA. I just thought she looked Swedish. So far I've tried to produce an average face without straying too far away from the La Femme original geometry. I promise she will be worth every penny/cent you pay for her, because you will not find her in the store. She is going to be FREE. However, I first need to sort out the problems to do with the way the figure is constructed - with animatable joint centers etc. Firstly Blackhearted has said in the manual that there is a problem in Poser. In order to match centers to morphs, you have to first create a full body morph so that the morph is in the body actor. Fine, except when I right click on that morph, I do not get the option to match centers to morph. Any other morph, no problem, full body morph - fail. See pic below. Now, I know this should put the control handles in the right place, but I'm not sure about the eyes and mouth. It's easy enough to move teeth and tongue using translate dials, but there is no translate dial for the eyes. (I've used x offset to position so far) The one that is there moves the whole face with the eyes. Ability to scale the eyes would be useful as well. Any thoughts ? Ulrika 2 front copy.jpg

match morphs.jpg

Are you using Poser 11, or Poser 11 Pro?

If you don't have Poser 11 Pro and you have a way to get your morph OBJ to me, I can create the injection for you.

Qaz:

Deecey said: "Are you using Poser 11, or Poser 11 Pro?

If you don't have Poser 11 Pro and you have a way to get your morph OBJ to me, I can create the injection for you."

I do have Poser Pro - latest version ( I updated as I thought that might be the problem.) Thanks for the offer, but this is still a WIP so Im waiting to sort out translation issues before finalizing the morph.

Does match centers to morph affect eye / mouth positions ? If not, how do you do that ? Cheers

Deecey:

qaz posted at 1:27PM Sun, 17 February 2019 - #4346349

Deecey said: "Are you using Poser 11, or Poser 11 Pro?

If you don't have Poser 11 Pro and you have a way to get your morph OBJ to me, I can create the injection for you."

I do have Poser Pro - latest version ( I updated as I thought that might be the problem.) Thanks for the offer, but this is still a WIP so Im waiting to sort out translation issues before finalizing the morph.

Does match centers to morph affect eye / mouth positions ? If not, how do you do that ? Cheers

Translations and scales are not included in morphs by default when you spawn. There is a way around it, but there are a few more steps involved. That was one of the reasons that I suggested that you use the face MORPHS (you can find the injections for the face morphs in the Pose library). You will find morphs in there that move the eye and mouth positions AND which take animated joint centers into account, AND which will be included when you spawn a full body morph.

If you indeed are using Poser 11 Pro, I am very curious as to why "Match Centers to Morph" is not being shown when you right click the morph. You say it's showing on other morphs but not that one?

Deecey

PS ... if you ONLY want to inject the morphs that affect the eye and mouth positions, go to the RPublishing > La Femme > Face Morphs > Regions folder, and use INJ Eye Positions and INJ Mouth Positions. You'll be able to move the eyes forward, backward, up, down, together, and apart together with the surrounding face parts... and the mouth up, down, forward and back together with the teeth.

Qaz:

Deecey posted at 12:53PM Sun, 17 February 2019 - #4346351

PS ... if you ONLY want to inject the morphs that affect the eye and mouth positions, go to the RPublishing > La Femme > Face Morphs > Regions folder, and use INJ Eye Positions and INJ Mouth Positions. You'll be able to move the eyes forward, backward, up, down, together, and apart together with the surrounding face parts... and the mouth up, down, forward and back together with the teeth.

Ok, thanks to help on other forum, the mistake I made was to create not spawn a body morph. Still didnt work. I'm expecting the control handles to follow the morph as per the La Femme Manual.

So

I don't want to use the in built injectors to make a morph because when I first started playing around with the figure it looked like they were distorting the underlying mesh. Also, they just aren't as good as an external program. If you come up with a basic shape using the internal morphs and export that as an object, you cannot then import that back in without the eyes / teeth being in the wrong position. You cannot therefore mix and match. I can't get the eyes to translate anyway. I need to move eyes and joint centers of eyes. Is there a way to switch animated joint centers off, move the suckers and switch it back on again. ? I'm showing complete ignorance here. I'm still expecting the control points to adopt to the new morph with the match centers command. I selected all the face handles and parts. I think it should have worked.

Qaz:

Deecey posted at 1:33PM Sun, 17 February 2019 - #4346356

phd posted at 2:20PM Sun, 17 February 2019 - #4346352

Deecey posted at 9:48PM Sun, 17 February 2019 - #4346350

Translations and scales are not included in morphs by default when you spawn. There is a way around it, but there are a few more steps involved.

And these steps are? I watched the webinar, and this is the first question I have after I tried the power of Escape :)

Ah yes, that Escape key LOL

I need more coffee today ... At the risk of my skipping anything important in the process and confusing people even more, I'm trying to wrangle "the nerd" in here to get you all squared away on how to do this.

Awesome ! We are now getting to the nitty gritty here. I shall be patient.

RobZhena:

@qaz You have to right click on the arrow to the right of the morph to get the menu ith match centers to morph.

Qaz:

RobZhena posted at 7:00PM Sun, 17 February 2019 - #4346372

@qaz You have to right click on the arrow to the right of the morph to get the menu ith match centers to morph.

Thanks I've sorted that now. It still didnt work, but someone has told me it doesnt until you save the injection. Haven't tried that yet.

Qaz:

Blackhearted posted at 4:52AM Tue, 19 February 2019 - #4346488

You can move/translate the eyes using either the included morphs, or just by selecting them and changing the depth, height, and shift dials -- which also move all of the other eye geometry like the eyelids, lashes, tearline, etc. Everything works afterwards including the eye chips, they're just a little bit offset since they don't move with the morph.

You can move the eyes 4" outside of her head without any morphs and the chips will still work exactly as intended.

eyemove.jpg

Moving the eyes from their place in an external program is a very bad idea on any figure since then you will need to adjust the entire face geometry to match. Not sure why on earth anyone would even consider doing that rather than just... selecting the eye and moving it with the dial, the way it was intended.

Yes, as I said, the face chips still work. The point is that the face geometry has already been changed whenever you export the face object after adjusting the built in face morphs, or if you use an external program.. Therefore as shown above, the eyes are now the wrong scale and in the wrong position.The other thing is that as shown by your picture - it distorts the face to pull the eyes around.

Love the eye plus eyelid dials. You get a very expressive look. Femme eyeb copy.jpg

Blackhearted:

qaz posted at 5:08AM Tue, 19 February 2019 - #4346490

Therefore as shown above, the eyes are now the wrong scale and in the wrong position.The other thing is that as shown by your picture - it distorts the face to pull the eyes around.

Of course it moves the skin around the eye, otherwise the eye would pop out of her head O_o

I moved the eyes 3" from their original position just to illustrate a point that it can be done, noone has eyes that far outside their head.

Why on earth would you want to move the eye, and have the skin around it not move. That makes absolutely no sense. The entire point is that you can adjust the eye depth/distance/etc and face and geometry around the eye (eyelids, eyelashes, tearline, lacrimals, etc) will adapt to the new position seamlessly. This was not possible on V4 at all, nor on other figures I'm aware of. Any morphs that involved the eye area were a nightmare to create since you had to pay attention to the fact that every tearline/eyelash/etc vertice lined up perfectly afterwards and you didn't accidentally morph the eyes out of round or it was a disaster. With LaFemme you can just select the eye and move/scale it wherever you want. How can people actually be complaining about this?