Referencing this: https://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2938767

If I'm wrong, then why did you lock the post to prevent further discourse on the matter. You reply with misinformation and then lock it so you can't be disputed. Wow. Professional of you. So I will reply here to your grievous misdirection and inaccurate points regarding the Bondware upgrades.

1. POSER GAME DEV 2014 - is not the same as Poser 11.
2. POSER GAME DEV 2014 - is technically a pro version of 10.

You said Poser 10 users did not have to upgrade and yet I have received emails from Bondware saying that they do. Any version of the program requiring 60 day license reactivations would have to do so or they will stop working - since your company refuses to renew them - which violates the delivery clause of the EULA signed with Smith Micro at the time of purchase. You cannot simply stop re-validating existing EULAs. If you do, you are violating said EULA.

1. You are telling users of POSER GAME DEV 2014 - that they must upgrade to version 11.2 or their product will stop working. This is a forced upgrade. If I have to do it or my purchased product stops working --- THAT'S A FORCED UPGRADE TO A DIFFERENT PRODUCT!

We own and paid for PGD2014. We didn't upgrade to 11 when Smith released it because we didn't want it. And you have no legal right to force me to update to 11. Your company could just release an update to PGD2014 that changes the call-in URL for the reactivation. You've done that with 11.1, have you not? Obviously and clearly you have. So why not an update for PGD2014 too? Why make us upgrade to 11? For that matter why are you making 11.1 folks upgrade? I'll tell you all why. It's the change in the EULA terminology. If you don't make everyone forfeit the older versions from Smith, you can't negate the old EULA agreements. The new one included with 11.2 uses the word "LEASE" in it. I notice in your reply you did not dispute nor address that point, now did you? Bondware is doing this to take away ownership rights on the previous versions of Poser. They are using the whole security-server BS in order to legitimize it and claiming the "free" upgrade is something awesome when it's really just a ploy to negate all of Smith's existing EULA's and to force everyone on to a new "LEASE" system wherein you can terminate our licenses at any given time or force us to pay continual upgrade fees whenever you feel like it.

Is that just not true? You're doing it right now. You're refusing to re-activate our existing PGD2014 licenses. You are essentially taking that version of the software off the market. It simply won't exist any more. So don't tell me if Bondware will do it now that they're not going to do it in the future. You can't deny you'll do something that you're already doing.

The fact that you locked the post tells me you don't want further discussion or debate on this. I'm pretty sure it tells that to everyone else as well. I will not shut up about this. Folks DO NOT upgrade to 11.2 - I'm telling you if you do they're going to be able to turn your software off whenever they feel like it to force you to pay for future upgrades. You don't own 11.2 - you "lease" it. This is why they dropped the price on it so significantly. They didn't buy Poser to save it...they bought Poser to make money on it and the only way they can save a program that failed due to people not getting the new upgrade is to FORCE people to take the future upgrades. It's simple math and logic. If you all roll over they will win.

The Smith Micro reactivation server is down. It's just an URL in the program's code. Bondware has already changed that in their 11.2 version. So they could provide a simple updater for previous versions to change that URL. They don't HAVE TO CHANGE THE WHOLE PROGRAM! They're doing this so they can update the EULA to take away ownership rights and install the new "LEASE" version. So if you update, during installation, you agree to assume the new EULA and abandon the old one. READ THE FINE PRINT FOLKS!!!!!!

You stated the following, "So this is done FOR the users. No one is trying to hurt anyone or take away any version. Poser 10 will continue to work just fine."

You did this to make money for Bondware. Corporations are seldom philanthropists. Spare us your attempt at not being a greedy business. You are taking away POSER GAME DEV 2014 entirely. If I upgrade to 11.2 - I don't have PGD2014 anymore do I? So yes, you are taking away my software and my license that I paid for. POSER GAME DEV 2014 is version 10, just an expanded version - so yes, you are lying again. Poser 10 will obviously not continue to work, will it?

You're just spouting nonsense in a pathetic attempt to re-cover what I have exposed here. I will not be silenced! You haven't said a single thing that disproves my points. In fact, your last paragraph just spouted three more obvious lies. I prove that right here...just above. Lies. Keep digging deeper . Please. Nothing better than a desperate debater with no ground to stand on. You can't just say whatever you feel like and expect it to be believed and especially when the known facts dispute your position entirely.

POSER GAME DEV 2014 owners have an EULA that guarantees them a program and a single user license to use it. Either you continue to provide re-activations for the existing program or you are violating that EULA and FORCING us to upgrade to a different program - and THAT - takes away our software and eliminates PGD2014 entirely. Stop lying. Point out and prove how one word of this paragraph is inaccurate. You can't.

I'll await the deletion or locking of this post as well.

When the powers that be cannot dispute the truth, they lock it away to prevent it being heard.

I'm not one for really getting into these flame-battles, but I read the previous post last night and saw this one this afternoon and was just curious enough to read some more. And while the guy is painfully new here - that last bit about the elimination of Game Dev is kind of true. He's got a point. If they are requiring Game Dev users to update to Poser 11, then they are taking away their version and my old version of Game Dev is also 10+ version number. So while this one doesn't really affect me since I upgraded to 11 when Smith released it, I have to ask why the blatantly contradictory statements from the moderator on this thing? The updater/download page does not have a special download for Game Dev - only Poser 11. So is Bondware just terminating Game Dev? I know a lot of people are still using it. Heck, it's still for sale in various outlets online. Just my two and a half cents.

Man I'm glad I don't use Poser, this is worse than when Mojoworld was in it's death throes. I had just bought it for a fortune and 2 months later Pandromeda basically evaporated. Thanks to the gods Doc Mojo owned it and wouldn't sell I couldn't get the upgrades I wanted anymore but but at least it still works and I don't have to pay for continuous use all these years later.

JAG posted at 6:44PM Sun, 13 October 2019 - #4366999

So is Bondware just terminating Game Dev?

From what I've read, and because of the many threads about the PP11.2 upgrade, I unfortunately don't recall in which thread I read it, but I believe the extra "goodies" that Game Dev offers, that PP2014 doen't have, ARE included in PP11.2, so nothing is lost if you upgrade to PP11.2.

Miss B You're right, the same features of Game Dev are included in Poser Pro 11.2 - but the original Game Dev was a different bird and used a different library system and so forth. The 11 version was a complete overhaul of the older pre-existing Poser system and code. So many users didn't like 11 - hence why sales slumped when Smith had it and why then ended up selling it off. A lot of the complaints in general were over the really ugly new figures and focus being placed too much on Superfly and other developments rather than fixing older bugs and building on the existing abilities. (These things come from the BETA forums.) The point being, Smith left behind the existing Poser version and tried to revamp the entire program with 11 and it really just didn't impress users of the old program much. And so there are a lot of older hard-core users who still cling to prior versions like a bible and don't want to give them up. To an extent, as I insinuated, I don't blame them. I was holding high hopes myself for Superfly and was annoyed to find that it wouldn't render my existing materials correctly. I had to completely convert all my old Firefly-capable materials to work in Superfly and it was a nightmare. And SF also doesn't render nearly as quickly (at least on my system) as Firefly. I think Superfly was just a quick run at keeping up with DazStudio with regard to their render engines. To their credit though, you can switch from one to the other without changing a thing. Smith flubbed that one.

But yeah, if they force Game Dev (which is a version of Poser 10) to upgrade to 11.2, that really does effectively terminate all Game Dev versions. So if you've got it and don't want 11 - well...I can see why the guy/gal is miffed. That's my only point - is that he/she has a point. I'm interested to see if Bondware responds better than Smith does/did to issues like this. Smith had a habit of trying to ignore things. See where it got them, huh? Bondware seems a bit smaller and personable, so I'm hoping they figure out some way to let Game Dev people keep their software. It's not really a great way to start out - peeving off the old die-hard users.

AngryUser1, you might want to think a bit more before you speak. You said Bondware is shutting down the use of gamedev. You're wrong. Smithmirco is. They were the ones to add the phone-home feature and they are the ones to shut down the server. You said the EULA makes claims promising use. That EULA was written by Smithmirco. Even If you bought the software here, or at some other site that was a retailer for SM, the agreement was between you, the user, and Smithmicro, not Bondware. If you have a complaint that someone isn't upholding their end of the deal, contact SM.

Right now, you complaining because you are getting $99 worth of software for free.

You talk about your software reverting to Poser 10. Are you forgetting about Poser Pro 2014? This is not the same as Poser Pro 2014 GameDev. This is the Pro version that came out at the same time as Poser 10. GaveDev was a later paid upgrade and added a few new features to help with game development and a phone-home feature SM snuck in.

And what is so terrible about Poser Pro11? It has all the features of GameDev. You want to render in Firefly? Go for it. It's still there. You don't like Pauline and Paul? Don't use them. The interfaces are almost identical. They aren't even different enough for my COD son to have a problem with the change. The library was changed. It no longer uses flash or air. Flash and Air are being discontinued in 2020. (make sure to schedule some time to yell at adobe) It is obviously time for an update there. Many didn't like that the library was based on Flash. And even though the library runs a little different. Searches aren't as efficient. But you can still find the stuff. You still load by double-clicking a thumbnail (those haven't changed.) You still save the save way. You add runtimes the same way.

At the risk of sounding condescending, I'll tell you what I tell my son. It's a change. It's different, but that's ok. It's not bad. You can handle it. And you, like my son, will get used to it.

Redphantom, Thanks for chiming in, but unfortunately you're not correct. The first group I contacted was in fact, Smith Micro. When Bondware purchased Poser from them part of the transfer arrangement required them to accept continued licensing of existing Poser software. If that were not a fact, Smith would be having to continue handling access and Bondware could not be doing anything. The sale/transfer includes responsibility for the EULA management. This was why Smith sold the software rather than simply abandon it. They can't legally abandon it because of the existing EULA's and requirements to do 60 day re-activation. They'd get the pants sued off of them. So they sold it cheap to Bondware. But now it's Bondware's baby 101%. Email Smith if you doubt me on that. Ask them. I did. I just reiterated what they told me. So unfortunately you don't know what you're talking about I'm afraid.

I don't want $99 worth of anything. I just want to keep what is mine - what I already paid for. Let me put this in the form of an analogy for you; You have a Ford truck you just bought. You love it. It's exactly what you want. The dealer shows up at your house and takes your Ford truck and leaves you a Ferrari sports car. Sure it's an expensive and cool car, but it's not your truck that you bought, that you love, and that you wanted. Now what do you haul your junk around in? Do you see the point here. No matter what they "give" you it's not what you already have and what you want nor what you paid for. They have no right to do that. Not legally or otherwise.

The argument here isn't the good or bad with the version 11. The point here is that owners of Game Dev 2014 have an existing EULA that states in the opening section that software and one license will be provided. By refusing to renew that license, Bondware is violating the EULA agreement. That will hold up in court. They cannot bait and switch the software. I've already spoken to more than one digital rights lawyer this past week regarding this area. So I'm not mouthing off my friend. They're not legally allowed to force an upgrade by cancelling validation of an existing license. Adobe tried this years ago and got a nasty class action filed against them for it. To date, any version of Photoshop you own will work. They tried to kill all of the "outdated" licenses in order to make everyone switch to using their monthly cloud service. But many people (myself included) had mortgaged their souls to buy Adobe suites. Mine was nearly $2K at the time. I wasn't giving that up and neither did a bunch of other angry users. They eventually settled out of court and left our licenses alone for the time being. So if you think companies won't do this sort of thing, you are dead wrong. When Bondware does this, Game Dev version will cease to function - period. And the new 11.2 versions use the word "lease" in their EULA for a reason folks. Companies don't buy software as a philanthropist move. Bondware bought Poser because they have big plans for it and that = $$$$$. How do you sell a program no one was buying? Make them. It's really that simple. That's why they are forcing anyone with an controlled license (one that has to renew) to switch to 11.2 with the new lease EULA. See right now we all own our software. They can't turn off older pre-10 versions, but they can turn off Game Dev and 11.0-11.1. See 11 didn't really do anything new compared to Game Dev. Sure it had Superfly but it really kind of sucks and even Charles Taylor admitted that it had bugs and issues. That's why 11 didn't move and Smith dropped it. I know. I was a member of the Beta team at one point and quit because no one at Smith was listening to our input on things - primarily the horrible new characters that were put out.

I don't know what you're talking about "reverting software." Poser Game Dev = Poser 10 (+). If you don't have Dev, stop talking or typing. Your whole argument being waged here makes no sense and has no bearing on matters. When Game Dev was released is moot. It is classified (I'm looking at my screen right now) as Poser 10 (+). No it's not basic Poser 10, nor Poser Pro 10, nor is it Poser Pro 2014. It is it's own version with it's own features...which is why I like it and want to keep it.

As for flash, it won't cease to exist, moron. Adobe is just not making any more updates or servicing it any more. It was freeware anyway. But if you have a program that uses Flash, and you have it installed it won't magically disappear in 2020. And for what it's worth the Air-programming was one of the things I hated. I worked with Smith to get the first Air update problem solved after it screwed up once. Adobe made changes and the update turned all of Poser's runtime titles sideways (like vertical). It was annoyingly hilarious. So I have the private email of the kind fellow who wrote the Runtime with Air and you all know him from the forums, so I won't drag him further into this. He didn't want to use Air at the time but Smith insisted because of time and budget. So sure, it's bad but it's not what's in question here.

You can argue about the great new things and terrible old things all day long and pat me on the back and tell me I'm getting $99 for free all you want. You can even be a malignant parent who uses their child's supposed disability to win debates - but in the end, it really just comes down to the fact that I bought software. I have a license to use it indefinitely. That program and license was upheld by Smith and sold to Bondware and now Bondware is not honoring it. Violation of EULA. Plain and simple. You can dance around and sugarcoat this till the cows come home but I still win because I'm right...and I'm the guy who has already talked with lawyers. If enough Game Dev owners stand up, Bondware will eventually have a problem on their hands.

Ask yourself this one question folks; If Bondware can change the call-out URL in 11.2 with no problem, why couldn't they just issue an updater for Game Dev that changes the URL and leave it alone? Hmm? Anybody got an answer? Why give me a $99 upgrade when you could just fix an URL?

The answer is they don't want me to have an owned copy. They want me to upgrade so I'm bound by the new lease EULA. Here's a free upgrade - ain't we so nice? And a year from now they switch to cloud service and discontinue your "lease." And suddenly you're renting monthly from them to use the software. Don't think they'll do it. Go look at Adobe. Read your Poser 11.2 EULA closely.

Bondware is not your friend. Bondware is a company with a bottom line - to make money. They don't care about you or what you like or don't like, so long as they're getting paid. Stop fooling yourselves into believing anyone in corporate world has your best interests at heart. They do not. None of them do. They smile and have trolls come on the forums and taunt you and hassle you and tell you how great the company is and how terrible you are for hating on them. Think about it. Think about it for a long while and you'll start to see the real trolls and corporate lackeys wearing civilian clothes. If you think I'm warped, that's fine. But I'm still right. And when they remove or lock this post as they did my previous - you'll know I'm right. They won't tolerate anyone who openly questions their motives or risks alienating their customers with the truth about their intentions and tactics. We're talking millions of dollars in potential development down the road people. Not just $99.

I'm tired typing. Nobody is probably listening anyway and most of you will just toss out the $99 or get your free upgrade and skip stupidly into oblivion. Years from now when you're having your licenses yanked and are forced to pay monthly - try and remember me and what I said.

Oh sheesh! I've been watching this all day and hokey-smokes, Batman...boom! Guy might be crazy but he knows how to do a mike-drop, huh? I feel like I need to turn off my computer an reevaluate my views on corporate greed and then maybe book a flight to Tibet or something. Ha, ha! I think he still makes a point here though. Am I the only one? And they did lock his first post before anyone but a moderator could post on it. Read that thing if you haven't. It's so long my eyes hurt but man - painful truths! Painful!

Again,SM was shutting down the server. We are providing updates and developing Poser Pro 11 only. We GAVE FOR FREE updates/upgrades to Poser Pro 11 for anyone who had a license for Poser 11, Poser Pro 11 OR Poser Pro 2014 Game Dev versions. you are not being forced to purchase anything. You got the most up to date version for FREE with the $900+ in free content. For NO purchase...no payment of any kind.

This is my only answer. It is the facts at hand. This is the only answer I can give you as it is the truth. You are not being forced to buy anything. No one is. Your version is being updated so that you can continue to use Poser. Otherwise it would have ceased to work when those servers went down.

And with that said, I think it's time to shut this thread down before things get out of hand.