It's the exact same thing. At the core, Poser is basically about light and camera settings. What is in the frame is just as irrelevant for Poser as it is for photography.

Rhia474 posted at 11:05AM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391493

Yes, it seems we do, including what I do with the products someone released with the explicit intent to get paid for it in exchange of others using it. And yes, The artwork you do with the pieces you have is yours. As others pointed out, would you deem collage art or those artists that put together artwork from found objects nonethical as well?

Also not quite the same thing, making art from collages or other materials is telling people what you've done by the very definition of the process. You put "pre-existing" items together to create art.

The photo reference isn't good.

I have never looked at a photo and wondered if the photographer created those mountains themselves.

BUT have seen a lot of things which I know the A̶r̶t̶i̶s̶t̶ Person, did not create at all...yet it's being passed on (and even sold) as such. I think that's what is Unethical.

CHK2033 posted at 5:56PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391502

The photo reference isn't good.

I have never looked at a photo and wondered if the photographer created those mountains themselves.

BUT have seen a lot of things which I know the A̶r̶t̶i̶s̶t̶ Person, did not create at all...yet it's being passed on (and even sold) as such. I think that's what is Unethical.

By that logic, using Poser at all is unethical, unless you created all the assets yourself.

DreaminGirl posted at 11:08AM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391505

CHK2033 posted at 5:56PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391502

The photo reference isn't good.

I have never looked at a photo and wondered if the photographer created those mountains themselves.

BUT have seen a lot of things which I know the A̶r̶t̶i̶s̶t̶ Person, did not create at all...yet it's being passed on (and even sold) as such. I think that's what is Unethical.

By that logic, using Poser at all is unethical, unless you created all the assets yourself.

If you steal someone's base poses or mesh, reshape it reuv it retexture it, re rig it re anything to it, and then present it as if you created it from scratch and even more sell it as something you created without acknowledging where the base came from, then yes it is highly unethical.

But then again I come from a world were we dont have a store to purchase "assets" we have a cube to start you with to create your own assets.

Irrelevant. The render you made is still your artwork, just like the photograph is still your artwork, even if the house you took a picture of, isn't.

DreaminGirl posted at 11:24AM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391512

Irrelevant. The render you made is still your artwork, just like the photograph is still your artwork, even if the house you took a picture of, isn't.

No one said it wasn't art. The question was about ethics , just the ethics of getting there. The topic was pretty direct, Not what is considered art or not but what is considered ethical or not (in this case pre made poses)

Right. But if using pre-made poses is 'unethical', we might as well close up Renderosity and label ourselves villains. Because pre-made assets is what Poser is all about

DreaminGirl posted at 11:39AM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391515

Right. But if using pre-made poses is 'unethical', we might as well close up Renderosity and label ourselves villains.

No I think you are misunderstanding what Im saying, If you use pre.........anything, to profit off of. even give away for free. without letting it be known that so and so poses you are uploading for whatever reasons came from (insert pose creator here) that is unethical.

I spend hours modeling or creating morphs for.that other girl.after that I'll be damn if Im going the spend more time posing her just to see how she looks , so yeah there its good to have pre poses when your just doing a none scene specific render (pinups for example )

as far as you rendering them or using them...who cares? I also have never looked at anyone's renders and asked myself...hmm..I wonder if they created those poses themselves or not

So, you are saying that if I create a render with a commercially sold pose, then sell this render as a book cover, for example, and don't state where the pose is from, then that is unethical, even tho the vendor explicitly don't require credit?

Only if they state not for "commercial purposes"

Which obviously you would know,

Im only talking about people who modify things (vendors/PA's) by using someone else item and passing it off as if they created it themselves, from scratch (marketplace items)

NOT customers or artist;

Your taking it as if im talking about end users, Im talking about so called...creators, who dont create but mod other peoples property and sell it to you all as if they actually created it themselves, they modified it themselves (reshaped it), re uved it themselves and in some cases retopo and rerigged it themselves (makes you wonder why didnt they just model it themselves)

OR took poses from someone else moved a arm or leg and pack it all up and sell them.

You either moved the original goalposts, or the original posited debate topic was poorly stated and misunderstood by pretty much all of those who responded with a no. I cannot debate a statement that is either changed mid debate or else insufficiently stated to start with, sorry. I do not think any of us wants to call selling someone else's work as ethical, but again, I did not think that was the original statement.

CHK2033 posted at 7:39PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391518

Only if they state not for "commercial purposes"

Which obviously you would know,

Im only talking about people who modify things (vendors/PA's) by using someone else item and passing it off as if they created it themselves, from scratch (marketplace items)

NOT customers or artist;

Your taking it as if im talking about end users, Im talking about so called...creators, who dont create but mod other peoples property and sell it to you all as if they actually created it themselves, they modified it themselves (reshaped it), re uved it themselves and in some cases retopo and rerigged it themselves (makes you wonder why didnt they just model it themselves)

OR took poses from someone else moved a arm or leg and pack it all up and sell them.

The question was 'Is it ethical to buy and use poses for a figure?', not selling someone else's pose as your own

Hence my post about moving goalposts or not stating clearly, yes. I am happy to discuss either but clarity of original or supporting statements helps debates, or else there is no point.

Rhia474 posted at 12:46PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391528

Hence my post about moving goalposts or not stating clearly, yes. I am happy to discuss either but clarity of original or supporting statements helps debates, or else there is no point.

Yes, understand, those things I wrote are the only things that would make it unethical.

In other words no its not unethical to use poses you paid for, load poses till your hearts content

CHK2033 posted at 1:50PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391518

(makes you wonder why didnt they just model it themselves)

Modeling is, at best, 25% of the time involved to create a product. The rest of the work, especially rigging and creating compatible body morphs that follow the target character's morphs, is far more labor intensive. Refitting older clothing to a newer model and making it "commercial quality" is a lot more involved than taking something into the fitting room and generating the fit and morphs automatically.

Deecey posted at 12:55PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391531

CHK2033 posted at 1:50PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391518

(makes you wonder why didnt they just model it themselves)

Modeling is, at best, 25% of the time involved to create a product. The rest of the work, especially rigging and creating compatible body morphs that follow the target character's morphs, is far more labor intensive. Refitting older clothing to a newer model and making it "commercial quality" is a lot more involved than taking something into the fitting room and generating the fit and morphs automatically.

My exact point, I can model something in a few hours...the rest the painful long part, is all the rest.

that is why it makes me wonder...just model it themselves

Thank you for clarifying, that helped. Good points.

My exact point, I can model something in a few hours...the rest the painful long part, is all the rest.

that is why it makes me wonder...just model it themselves <

I've refit several Genesis and V4 clothing items to LaFemme for RPublishing. All of them conforming (not dynamic). In that case, I'm getting the directive straight from "the horse's mouth" to do them. They are always listed as RPub products, but I also get credit for the refits. And believe me, it's not a party. I'm working on a few now that have geometry that is tough to rig in spots, so I ended up remodeling them anyway. LOL Same types of garments, but cleaner geometry.

But yeah sometimes you get commissioned to fit stuff from character A to character B. But when I do that I add additional value ... for example, new UV maps, all new PBR textures with SuperFly/FireFly compatible shaders, etc etc etc. If only 25% of the work is retained, and 75% of the work is new to bring it up to current standards, then I think it's reasonable to give the "new" creator credit for the work - PROVIDING they had permission or contract to do it in the first place. But that's just me. 8-)

Ah Ha ! but you dont create poses ? why ? what have you been doing all these years ? unethically loading store purchased premade poses ?

She probably cheats and uses Mocapping!

lol your laughing, while im sitting here thinking...hmm that sounds like a good idea.. lmao

Well, you would get very natural poses from that, but it requires a bit of work..

CHK2033 posted at 3:47PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391540

Ah Ha ! but you dont create poses ? why ? what have you been doing all these years ? unethically loading store purchased premade poses ?

I admire people that can make good poses. After all these years, posing is one of my least favorite things to do. They never look natural, so yeah I'm one of those that stars off with canned poses and I tweak them some.

I should use mocap.too (LOLOLOL exposed by DreaminGirl)

Deecey posted at 5:00PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391531

CHK2033 posted at 1:50PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391518

(makes you wonder why didnt they just model it themselves)

Modeling is, at best, 25% of the time involved to create a product. The rest of the work, especially rigging and creating compatible body morphs that follow the target character's morphs, is far more labor intensive. Refitting older clothing to a newer model and making it "commercial quality" is a lot more involved than taking something into the fitting room and generating the fit and morphs automatically.

OT, but while you are here Deecey, perhaps you could answer a quick question about La Femme and conformers.

I've been purchasing your conforming outfits and those of Rhiannon for La Femme, and also a lot of dynamics by Karanta. I'd like to model a specific kind of Corset for her, as a conformer. I'm figuring the modeling aspect will be pretty fun. I enjoy modeling and it would (as far as I know) just be a personal project. It would be a Billy T style corset that just covers La femme's upper hips and just below the breasts, lots of eyelets and cords. I've made conformers in the past but I'm wondering, wouldn't something like the corset I have in mind just require transfer of the relevant parts of the donor and copying over, say, your body kit morphs? And creation of adjustment morphs. Are there JCMs in La Femme's abdomen region I'll have to worry about?

DreaminGirl posted at 5:41PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391541

She probably cheats and uses Mocapping!

Ironically, I don't have a problem with using mocaps. Most of the time, unless they're specifically for the figure you're using, a good deal of restructuring and re-rigging, and re-posing is involved.

EldritchCellar posted at 5:54PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391552

Deecey posted at 5:00PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391531

CHK2033 posted at 1:50PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391518

(makes you wonder why didnt they just model it themselves)

Modeling is, at best, 25% of the time involved to create a product. The rest of the work, especially rigging and creating compatible body morphs that follow the target character's morphs, is far more labor intensive. Refitting older clothing to a newer model and making it "commercial quality" is a lot more involved than taking something into the fitting room and generating the fit and morphs automatically.

OT, but while you are here Deecey, perhaps you could answer a quick question about La Femme and conformers.

I've been purchasing your conforming outfits and those of Rhiannon for La Femme, and also a lot of dynamics by Karanta. I'd like to model a specific kind of Corset for her, as a conformer. I'm figuring the modeling aspect will be pretty fun. I enjoy modeling and it would (as far as I know) just be a personal project. It would be a Billy T style corset that just covers La femme's upper hips and just below the breasts, lots of eyelets and cords. I've made conformers in the past but I'm wondering, wouldn't something like the corset I have in mind just require transfer of the relevant parts of the donor and copying over, say, your body kit morphs? And creation of adjustment morphs. Are there JCMs in La Femme's abdomen region I'll have to worry about?

The only parts that have JCMs associated with them are the shoulders and thighs. The shoulder JCMs also affect the collars and chest (and sometimes the neck, depending on the model), and the thigh JCMs also affect the hip and can also extend up to the waist. So the corset you intend on making MAY be affected by the thigh JCMs a tad. Something to keep in mind.

The thing that will be a bugger (talking from experience, because I like to do laced up stuff myself) ... are the details in the lacing and the eyelets in the corset. All those fiddly doo dads can be a challenge to smooth out when you exercise the joint rotations, and you'll probably need to get into smoothing out the bulge maps also. If at all possible, you might find it easier if you model the eyelets into the corset itself, rather than have them floating on the surface. The modeling will be a little more challenging that way, but there will be less risk of having the eyelets get buried in the corset, especially with the bend forward/bend backward rotations on the abdomen and waist.

I hope that helps! 8-)

Ok. Yes, planned on modeling the eyelets integrated into corset rather than separate and lined up/embedded. It'll increase the poly count a bit but it's just for myself or maybe a freebie if it comes together ok.

Thanks for the tips and the models Deecey. Can you make a schoolgirl with thigh high stockings please? Lol. Just kidding. Well actually I'm not.

EldritchCellar posted at 6:13PM Thu, 11 June 2020 - #4391558

Ok. Yes, planned on modeling the eyelets integrated into corset rather than separate and lined up/embedded. It'll increase the poly count a bit but it's just for myself or maybe a freebie if it comes together ok.

Thanks for the tips and the models Deecey. Can you make a schoolgirl with thigh high stockings please? Lol. Just kidding. Well actually I'm not.

Believe it or not I've thought about it LOL

Can someone tell me about "the mess Smith Micro made" with Poser? I wasn't around for all that. I keep seeing this mentioned in various posts... I was always under the impression they had a good team working on Poser, and the versions seemed solid.

Which would lead to a second question. Who's the development team now?

They used it the way you use an orange .

Then when they realized oranges weren't in anymore...it was too little too late.

So they did what any one would do with an orange, continue to squeeze every last drop out of it without investing in the orange..poor little orange..the poor little orange got used and abused..even some of the seeds that came out that orange cut out and left the little dried up orange all alone...sigh.

But then one day someone took the orange and tried to pump new life into the orange..

And here we are now.

To be continued.

And I just really like Oranges

Sounds like a strange and terrible tale lol. Was expecting something a little less cryptic. Did you know that too much vitamin C gives you diarrhea? Looking forward to the rest of the bedtime story CHK2033

Yup, I know (cryptic)

I guess the best part is The Orange is now in much better hands , I have 0 things to say about SM without cursing non stop so I won't say anything about those fuckers.

Nice. Understood. Is there a public statement about the current development team? Obviously Charles Taylor, but not certain about any others. Was curious about their figure development team, like how it used to be a guy named Daryl (I think) and Teyon Alexander. That stuff is interesting to me.

Or maybe they're doing figure development kind of work- for-hire and there isn't a set staff for that?

Any road up, I don't consider it unethical unless the creator of the image states they created the poses - or anything else - themselves if they didn't.

I hope these aren't verboten questions. Like "Luca Brasi Sleeps With The Fishes"

SamTherapy posted at 5:02PM Fri, 12 June 2020 - #4391672

Any road up, I don't consider it unethical unless the creator of the image states they created the poses - or anything else - themselves if they didn't.

Cue twilight zone music

EldritchCellar posted at 4:03PM Fri, 12 June 2020 - #4391669

Or maybe they're doing figure development kind of work- for-hire and there isn't a set staff for that?

.................................................................................

Oh, hmm, Can only speak for myself on that so don't really know if their like "staff" of Rendo/RPub or just doing per project ? No idea..

Anyway. Sorry for yet another derail. Just seems like a more conversational thread. I'd imagine that RPublishing would just hire independent contractors per project basis, considering the large pool of artists, rather than a fixed team...

@ED - This is what I remember, I'm sure I'll get corrected if I get it wrong. SM had a solid team and did good work with versions 9 thru 11, but in 2016, something like 6 months or so after P11 released (somewhere round about SR4?), it was decided higher up in the corporate structure that costs must be cut, so the entire Poser team were 'let go'. Some 15-20 people I think, and some of them had been on that team for a lot of years. Work was outsourced for a while to a small team in Portugal, and the 3D path feature was added, but development pretty much fell off a cliff until Renderosity bought Poser.

If memory serves, Teyon went to work for a game studio and has posted in these forums a few times, though not recently.

I recall a mention of Portugal and outsourcing in a post somewhere. And don't call me ED...
croissant

The OP asked if it was ethical to USE canned poses not resell them. A lot of people who use them can't/ don't have the time / inclination to make poses. Some people just want to express an idea. These people are the Main reason there are canned poses to begin with. The question of ethics boils down to the pose creators terms of use. It is not a subjective question meaning that it is a matter of opinion but an objective one meaning that it is a matter of statement by the vendor

ROTFL - not sure where I got ED from. croissant is wonderfully apposite because I am cheap, flaky and go stale very quickly.

Anyway, this thread needs a new question - I think structure's answer is pretty definitive ;)

The whole point of selling various assets, including figures, props, textures and poses, is so that people can use them in their own works. Some are even sold explicitly as merchant's resources to be included in new assets for sale. A license may restrict the use of assets in certain contexts such as games as opposed to image or video production, but otherwise, if the license allows the use, then it is legal and ethical. I've seen commons licenses that explicitly require attribution, but I have never encountered a pose set requesting such.

kaleberg posted at 8:43PM Mon, 22 June 2020 - #4392791

The whole point of selling various assets, including figures, props, textures and poses, is so that people can use them in their own works. Some are even sold explicitly as merchant's resources to be included in new assets for sale. A license may restrict the use of assets in certain contexts such as games as opposed to image or video production, but otherwise, if the license allows the use, then it is legal and ethical. I've seen commons licenses that explicitly require attribution, but I have never encountered a pose set requesting such.

Despite what people think I've said, I actually have no problems with people using canned poses. I actually used to make them, although I didn't really sell them. I use poses as starting points, which is how I actually think they should be used. My problem is with people who try to pass off canned poses as their own original work.

ghostship2 posted at 8:41PM Tue, 23 June 2020 - #4391247

Fabiana is fantastic with an airbrush in photoshop but her textures don't translate well in a photo-realistic way.

Hello everyone! Thank you for all your nice words about my work but this particular catch my attention... I would adore if you point me to the textures you think I could improve. I am serious, I practice a lot and it will help me a lot to know!!!

Hi Fabi! LOL. Never fear, your textures, renders, and products are more than lovely the way they are. Aw Shucks.

Thank you EldritchCellar!!! I'll always try to do my best :) Means a lot to me to read this ❤️