So, I know I'm just typing to see myself type, but this has been a thorn in my side for many moons since I first started using Poser. What may that be? Posers absolutely terrible lighting system. Poser has been out for almost 25 years and in that time the lighting quality has been disgusting. You can ALWAYS tell a Poser user just by the lighting and even when someone knows what they're doing, you still can't seem to get the best quality compared to many other programs, some of which are FREE.

One of the biggest issues is in the image below:

I have read tutorial after tutorial, gotten help from many forums and the results ALWAYS come out the same. I'm no expert on lighting, but I do consider myself a step above those that just pose and render and call it good. This image was rendered using a simple IBL with some other small lights and I've followed the directions to get rid of the splotchy black shadows, but they always, always, always show up.

There is no excuse for a 25 year old program to still have these issues when a program like DAZ has a far superior lighting system and is a younger program. This is one of the reasons I have never done outdoor images because the ground planes end up like this. I've tried turning dials based on other user's input, I've turned off smooth polygons, I've added/taken away bump maps, but I've come to realize that it's not an issue with the object itself, it's Poser. Even some of my indoor pics get the same troubles and I get the same response from pro users that "it's just the way Poser is". I watched patch after patch from Smith Micro ignore a lot of the really big issues and previous companies do the same (though, I've owned other software by Smith Micro and I wonder how they ever stayed in business).

We still don't have light emitting objects (like a lightsaber blade), sure you can turn up ambiance and use a light gather node, but that's just complete BS that you have to take so many steps for an end result that you will most likely have to post-process anyway just to get it to look like the object is casting light.

I really don't want to abandon Poser over something like this, but if we don't see some HUGE upgrade to the lighting, I may just have to give it the finger and walk away. Something I don't want to do because everything is set up for Poser, textures, models, libraries, etc.

Bondware, if you want to make Poser something awesome, don't ignore the issues and let Poser fall to the wayside like everyone else has. Update it to bring it up to quality standards that make people flock to DAZ and Blender. Don't treat it as just "good enough" while your users sit there and fill the forums with the same issues over and over. I understand there are deadlines and sometimes content needs to be cut (I've been playing WoW for a long time, I understand all this), but when you add new features without addressing the old issues, what's the point?

Maybe I'm just spouting off nonsense.

??? Lighting in Poser bad???

more Poser lighting examples

It's polygonal self shadowing. Probably aggravated by displacement.

If you're using a greyscale displacement map where middle grey is functioning as 0, run your displacement map ( gamma 1) into a math subtract node as shown below.

Also you can minimize polygonal self shadowing by lowering your shadow min bias on your light to 0.5 or lower, I've found 0.35 works well for me.

And finally, adding a level of subdivision is helpful for clearing up raytracing artifacts such as this.

And just to add a night scene :D

Bill

Or you can go with the flow and incorporate the render artifacts like I did here ;)

(Polygonal Self Shadowing)

I might be wrong, but are those infinite lights in the OP?

Says using an IBL with smaller lights. Assuming an infinite and maybe some points. They discussed the crap out of those artifacts at SM forums. I first came across the solution via BB and a tutorial on lighting by Blackhearted... it's fixable. It's not IDL splotchies.

If OP is using AO, could make it more pronounced.

I said lower shadow min bias but it's actually raise. I just by default use 0.35 to 0.5 as a good compromise between quality and artifact avoidance.

Here's what OP is referring to at the top left...

https://forum.smithmicro.com/topic/4130/firefly-blotches-again

One final thing. Carrara GI does the same thing. It's not a Poser specific problem. It's a raytracer problem.

Even when I ignore the whole rant from the user above, in one point he is right. Poser need a new lightning system. This actual one is outdated. Photometric , a real world for accurate HDRI lightning. I would like to use IES Light profiles in Poser, but with this current light system not possible. Also the camera. More flexibility, would be much appreciated. Updated DOF focusing as example. And please don't come with the script Easy DOF. I use it already. But I would like to have it in Poser inside .

OP...

The problems you are seeing are nothing to do with lighting. It's self shadowing polygons, which has had several solutions since Poser 6.

Why are you using IBL? That was surpassed long ago.

Self glowing objects and light casting have been available for quite some time. There are numerous tutorials on how to do it; several threads in this forum, in fact.

The last line of your post is an accurate summary, though.

Ghostship, your renders are amazing.

Makes me want to use Superfly more, even though I don't have the patience. It takes so much longer than Firefly.

Try Cycles Root Surface with Cycles nodes, or Physical Root surface. Use HDRI background - don't even need Poser lights. Much much better than using Poser Root Surface nodes plus Poser nodes and Poser lights.

Ladonna posted at 8:28AM Mon, 22 June 2020 - #4392685

Even when I ignore the whole rant from the user above, in one point he is right. Poser need a new lightning system. This actual one is outdated.

This is all bound to the render engine... and Poser, just like DS and most other hobbyist-level CG apps, have the render engine baked right into the application, which in turn means everyone just uses what's there. This has always been a bit of a bugaboo with me. I know DS can do it, and Poser used to do it (and likely still does), so here's your solution, folks:

If you don't like the lighting system, go get a better render engine that has a bridge/rig/plugin that plays nice with Poser.

I must warn you though - stepping into this world means you're taking on greater responsibilities, because the 'Make Art' button will disappear awful fast when you do this. However, doing it this way has the neat advantage of getting new and awesome features and performance updates as your fave render engine updates with new features and bennies. You also get the advantage of a faster pipeline, since the external render engine is doing all the work, which frees the UI for setting up your next scene. I did this for years with DS' 3Delight engine (by using the external free 3DL engine), and it's better than sliced bread...

I like Vue, though it takes some work to get skin textures looking right. But dynamic hair always looks terrible in Vue.

If they ever fix this, I suspect I won't be able to take advantage of it. I love Vue, but not enough to subscribe to it. I'm not against software subscriptions in general; I have Lightroom and Photoshop, and consider it a very good value. Vue is just too expensive, given how much I use it.

"I must warn you though - stepping into this world means you're taking on greater responsibilities, because the 'Make Art' button will disappear awful fast when you do this."

And be replaced with a different make art button. Guess it depends on your definition of make art... and how many people agree to that.

...In a particular group that is. Elsewhere others might not agree at all. Does, by this blanket definition, technical complexity equate art? And what measurement of complexity falls within the realm of inclusion into this art "space"?

Lighting is a total PITA doesn't matter what application you use. I've gotten some gorgeous renders out of 3Delight in DAZ Studio and some HORRID renders out of iRAY in DAZ Studio. Since jumping over to Poser it's the same game. I would think an HDRI MIGHT give better lighting as it's real world based and throw in a couple of point or spot lights for troubled areas. BUT I'm still figuring out what's the best way to make use of the tons of HDRI maps I have collected over the years.

How's iRAY?

As far as HDRI, BBs environment sphere. I tried messing with EZDome but I didn't feel like reading a manual for something I already use. Maybe I'll give it another whirl. I just baked some maps in blender and that's about as close as I've gotten to superfly lol. I know it's the future but at this point I'm just happy getting faster IDL renders with my new computer, the idea of starting all over isn't appealing.

I think I tried Baggins sphere but I don't think I set it up correctly as the HDRI looked very blurry!

Some of the Genesis iRAY renders I see are just gorgeous.

They are. Some of my promos for G8M Gino I made a while back are some of the best I've ever done in DAZ Studio but like any lighting set up if you don't know some of the technical hurdles to create the right kinds of lighting can be very hit or miss!

Just tried that same submission in Opera, same issue!

I just use the sphere for the light and reflections, and I add lights as needed. But I'm probably not aiming for what most people on here are. Check this out...

https://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2922238

I agree with Peng, Poser exports to FBX.obj.

There are many FREE rendering alternatives (Blender ,UE4) But there is extra work involved in porting over your poser/Daz/Iclone CC3 content

I personally use Blenders EEVEE https://youtu.be/A7io8CoExH0

I still like to use a particular IBL set up for clay renders. And I also like using a large emitter and reflector in a void. For background images I'm just as likely to use an image on a plane or post work. Post work is half the fun of making an image. But yeah, I guess I'm a heathen lol.

Seems to be some trouble posting images now.

Watched your YouTube demo wolf. Nice. I see you use the little camera manipulator, rather than keys, too. I don't feel so bad now

Ok, this passage bugged me, "We still don't have light emitting objects (like a lightsaber blade), sure you can turn up ambiance and use a light gather node"

Wasn't that replaced when actual prop light emitions were introduced? Light gather was in P6 through what, P8 ... then using props to emit light was introduced around that time. IBL's aren't necessary in P11/PP11. Although many statements in the OP's post are good and valid and need to be looked into, some statements are outdated as to the current version of Poser.

EldritchCellar posted at 1:47PM Mon, 22 June 2020 - #4392755

I just use the sphere for the light and reflections, and I add lights as needed. But I'm probably not aiming for what most people on here are. Check this out...

https://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2922238

Thank you!

IBL can still be useful for B&W ambient occlusion renders. IDL just doesn't have the extreme range of occlusion you can get with IBL/AO, least not that I'm aware of (see below)

Yes, many things that OP is complaining about are like he just stepped out of a time machine from Poser 7

IBL/AO Firefly

IBL/AO Firefly

"We still don't have light emitting objects (like a lightsaber blade), sure you can turn up ambiance and use a light gather node..."

Try these:

Claymore III lightsabre

glowy demo props (includes both Firefly and Superfly lightsabres)

If rendering in Firefly, you need to engage IDL to get lightcasting effects.

EldritchCellar posted at 8:24PM Mon, 22 June 2020 - #4392774

IBL can still be useful for B&W ambient occlusion renders. IDL just doesn't have the extreme range of occlusion you can get with IBL/AO, least not that I'm aware of (see below)

Yes, many things that OP is complaining about are like he just stepped out of a time machine from Poser 7

IBL/AO Firefly

Baph looks real purdy there!

Penguinisto posted at 5:51AM Tue, 23 June 2020 - #4392723

Ladonna posted at 8:28AM Mon, 22 June 2020 - #4392685

Even when I ignore the whole rant from the user above, in one point he is right. Poser need a new lightning system. This actual one is outdated.

This is all bound to the render engine... and Poser, just like DS and most other hobbyist-level CG apps, have the render engine baked right into the application, which in turn means everyone just uses what's there. This has always been a bit of a bugaboo with me. I know DS can do it, and Poser used to do it (and likely still does), so here's your solution, folks:

If you don't like the lighting system, go get a better render engine that has a bridge/rig/plugin that plays nice with Poser.

I must warn you though - stepping into this world means you're taking on greater responsibilities, because the 'Make Art' button will disappear awful fast when you do this. However, doing it this way has the neat advantage of getting new and awesome features and performance updates as your fave render engine updates with new features and bennies. You also get the advantage of a faster pipeline, since the external render engine is doing all the work, which frees the UI for setting up your next scene. I did this for years with DS' 3Delight engine (by using the external free 3DL engine), and it's better than sliced bread...

I never used "Render art button". And yes, I use other render pipelines. But would be nice to have some nice feature in Poser from them.

On the subject of pipelines, curious if anyone is using V-Ray with Blender - the thought is to use Blender as a bridge between Poser and V-Ray.

ironsoul posted at 8:42AM Tue, 23 June 2020 - #4392833

On the subject of pipelines, curious if anyone is using V-Ray with Blender - the thought is to use Blender as a bridge between Poser and V-Ray.

Interesting thought. I never used V-ray with Blender, only with 3DSMax, when my husband still had Max. (After 1 year subscription he dropped it because to expensive to just open it 2-3 times per month due his lack of time) But I would be interested if this with Blender could work a bridge between Blender/Poser/Vray

To be honest, lighting is a process, even in the real world. Look at a photographer's studio, he (or she) has screens, gels, back lights, bounces, key lights, fill lights, etc. The problem with most people who complain about things they don't understand is that they just want them to work, out of the box, perfectly, each and every time. Now, here's a little secret, by it's very nature, that's NOT art. In fact, if you did manage to eliminate the uncertainty factor then you eliminated the art itself.

RAMWolff posted at 5:27AM Tue, 23 June 2020 - #4392817

EldritchCellar posted at 8:24PM Mon, 22 June 2020 - #4392774

IBL can still be useful for B&W ambient occlusion renders. IDL just doesn't have the extreme range of occlusion you can get with IBL/AO, least not that I'm aware of (see below)

Yes, many things that OP is complaining about are like he just stepped out of a time machine from Poser 7

IBL/AO Firefly

Baph looks real purdy there!

It's a sculpted single sided plane, Zbrush

EClark1894 posted at 9:37AM Tue, 23 June 2020 - #4392840

To be honest, lighting is a process, even in the real world. Look at a photographer's studio, he (or she) has screens, gels, back lights, bounces, key lights, fill lights, etc. The problem with most people who complain about things they don't understand is that they just want them to work, out of the box, perfectly, each and every time. Now, here's a little secret, by it's very nature, that's NOT art. In fact, if you did manage to eliminate the uncertainty factor then you eliminated the art itself.

I agree - however, for Poser, everyone seems to assume that the end user is coming from a photography background. For those of us that haven't, lighting is pretty much a dark art - every other version of Poser had a major upgrade to how lighting worked - which invalidates the older tutorials that are still around (and aren't being marked as legacy or deleted..

I wasted a lot of money on lighting tutorials and webinars - nothing irritates me like paying 35 for an outdoor lighting webinar that spent the entire time doing lighting inside a building (that had glass windows).

EClark1894 posted at 6:02PM Tue, 23 June 2020 - #4392840

To be honest, lighting is a process, even in the real world. Look at a photographer's studio, he (or she) has screens, gels, back lights, bounces, key lights, fill lights, etc. The problem with most people who complain about things they don't understand is that they just want them to work, out of the box, perfectly, each and every time. Now, here's a little secret, by it's very nature, that's NOT art. In fact, if you did manage to eliminate the uncertainty factor then you eliminated the art itself.

Light is never easy to recreate in 3D. In no one 3D application/ Render engine. I watched countless tutorials over the last years , do lightning studies with photography's. It is not an easy task. But here it comes. In my POV , Poser is missing really some today "must haves". Real world as example . Not this strange background where you can plug your HDRI. It is not easy to handle and in my POV not accurate. The construct I even don't want to talk about. Hate it with a passion. Photometric lights, so you can have IES Lightprofiles. I think Poser would benefit a lot from this new features.

I've never taken a photography class, but in college I did take theater and stage lighting. In the theater and in studios, lighting is an art in and of itself. Because it's meant to convey a thought, time of day, what kind of day, it is, or even an emotion. Frankly, I appreciate Poser's lights. It gives you all kinds of control to convey just those points I mention above. If you took all that control away, people would be begging Poser to put it back in.

EClark1894 posted at 8:24PM Tue, 23 June 2020 - #4392883

I've never taken a photography class, but in college I did take theater and stage lighting. In the theater and in studios, lighting is an art in and of itself. Because it's meant to convey a thought, time of day, what kind of day, it is, or even an emotion. Frankly, I appreciate Poser's lights. It gives you all kinds of control to convey just those points I mention above. If you took all that control away, people would be begging Poser to put it back in.

I don't talk about taking away, I talk about add a few new features. Yes, Light is an art by its own and I admire everybody who can render accurate the lights in his preferred render engine. Light is the holy grail in every picture. It can break it or it can make something magical with your render.

EldritchCellar posted at 1:36PM Tue, 23 June 2020 - #4392767

Watched your YouTube demo wolf. Nice. I see you use the little camera manipulator, rather than keys, too. I don't feel so bad now

@Eldritch Yeah man I am forcing myself to become a more of true "keyboard man" ,in Blender, as it seems it will be almost mandatory if I want to get the full utility out of the Hard-ops/boxcutter bundle I bought recently.?

After a brief lull after finishing/releasing "Galactus Rising" in April

https://drive.google.com/file/d/17J9NeEDWIXUmdt3bx9q5dWrR50poEA5d/view?usp=drivesdk

,and buying a new AMD Ryzen Rig, I am back in Autodidactic mode .?️‍♀️ trying to become efficient in All of the new/upgraded software I have installed on the new big black box.

Reallusion Character creator3 pipeline,Unreal engine 4 and Blender 2.83

Considering the state of the planet, I dont imagine there is a better time to stay home,hunker Down and deep dive this stuff.?

I was testing out an HDR image Firefly render by subdividing (to level 2) the Environment sphere that came with a Jefferson AF product. I added a random figure (Bertha the nurse), and I got the splotches. All lights off. GROUND visibility and light emitter off. My cure was subdividing.

Render settings. These are the PBREmulatorBetter settings with HDRI check added.

Splotches on shoulder.

Lowered render setting IDL from 15 to 1. Dimmer splotches on arm.

Subdivided dress to level 1. Reset IDL back to 15. Dimmer splotches on arm.

Subdivided dress to level 2. No splotches!

New addon for Blender allows importing native props and characters from Poser. So far so good!

Whoa! Very cool.

Morphs, weighting, etc etc work?