wolf359 posted at 5:29AM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405382

@ssgbryan

The Problem with this (often repeated), gratuitous assertion of yours is as follows:

The Majority of the current Daz studio user base has never used poser and are thus not concerned with any "feature parity" with poser.?

Only the ability to use the latest Genesis models/content natively. and that does not cost $750 USD as people's costs will vary greatly depending on what bundles etc. they choose to buy during whatever sale promotion at Daz or here at the RMP.?

A new user can download Daz studio for ZERO USD and get the base version of the latest Genesis models and spend $225 USD on whatever content Daz has in one of their endless sales. and still not have reached the initial cost of buying poser 12 for $249.?

So this 700+ USD number, you keep repeating, is completey arbitrary & based on personal decisions you chose to make and have nothing to do with what others may choose to buy for their Daz studio usage.

By the way, Houdini is one of the most advanced 3d programs out >there. Complex Houdini scenes are not compatible with any other >program

Not entirely true:?

https://www.sidefx.com/products/houdini-engine/

Of course the truly complex procedural native stuff needs to be done within houdini but its not exactly a closed garden.

Bondware has decided to move away from maintaining third party import export plugins( poser fusion, DSON)and focus on the core application with a token FBX importer/exporter.

That is fine because the core program and its content and figures needs to be competitive before people outside of the poser ecosystem find them desirable for use in other programs....is that the case at present????

The harsh truth of the matter is the neither Iclone CC3 figures nor the Mighty Genesis figures from Daz are widely used by professional Gaming or Film/TV/VFX studios who use Maya ,Houdini or even Blender.

Go on... have a look at any offcial demo Reel by Autodesk, SideFX the Foundry or any amazing Game engine Demo by Epic games or Unity and you wont find a Daz or Iclone/CC3 figure anywhere.?

So this endless debate about "compatibility" for SOME ,in the poser community has only ever been about one thing.

The Desire/Demand to use the Daz genesis models without leaving the myopic little comfort bubble of Poser.

WOW. I'M GONNA SAY I'M IN COMPLETE AGREEMENT WITH EVERYTHING YOU JUST SAID. FINALLY SOMEBODY WITH SOME INTELLIGENCE. THANKS FOR GIGGING ON THAT $700 DOLLAR THING TOO. WHAT IS THAT ALL ABOUT? DAZ IS FREEWARE FROM THE FLOOR UP. THEY MAKE THEIR MONEY ON CONTENT NOT THE ACTUAL SOFTWARE. THEY TRIED ONCE...AND IT FLOPPED SO HARD IT HURT. THANK YOU FOR BACKING ME UP AND WITH FACTS TOO!

ssgbryan posted at 5:31AM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405418

For a person that doesn't use Poser, you certainly spend a lot of time in the Poser forums.

Neither you nor I care what DS users do.

The OP is whining about using DS content in Poser. I suggested that the OP move to DS, and get ready to spend for scripts to replicate the features that they appear to be used to. Unlike you, I have already been down that rabbit hole, the cost is $750. I already provided you a list of the scripts, the cost, and the Poser feature they duplicate.

And your only retort was that you didn't need those features - which wasn't the issue.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? WHAT PLUGINS OR SCRIPTS FOR DAZ STUDIO ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? IT'S NONSENSE. I'M NOT SURE I'M BOTHERING TO EVEN ANSWER YOU PAST THIS.

wolf359 posted at 5:33AM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405423

ssgbryan posted at 1:56PM Sat, 21 November 2020 - #4405418

For a person that doesn't use Poser, you certainly spend a lot of time in the Poser forums.

Neither you nor I care what DS users do.

The OP is whining about using DS content in Poser. I suggested that the OP move to DS, and get ready to spend for scripts to replicate the features that they appear to be used to. Unlike you, I have already been down that rabbit hole, the cost is $750. I already provided you a list of the scripts, the cost, and the Poser feature they duplicate.

And your only retort was that you didn't need >those features - which wasn't the issue.

Again you are assuming that everyone who switches to Daz studio will consider it useless unless he/she can relpicate every single feature in poser.

while ignoring the fact that most people make the switch to use the Genesis* figures........period.?

Not to replicate the poser morph brush or dependancy editor or face chips etc. and certainly not to replicate posers ancient pose dials and vestgial animation tools.

But to have REAL Genesis 8 girls/guys with native HD & JCM morphs and Iray renders and BTW, be able to use 99 percent of their legacy V4/M4 content via autofit and UV switching. Before even Buying alot of content.

BTW, you really do not need a morph brush to fix "poke through" if you model your clothing correctly, as I Did for Genesis and now the the CC3 bases, and your rigging /weighting system actually works properly.

HERE! HERE! WELL SAID AND I AGREE IN TOTALITY. HAS ANYONE REALLY EVER USED THE MORPH BRUSH? THAT'S WHY I GOT Z AND GOZ PLUGIN. THAT BRUSH TOOL IS OKAY IN A BIND BUT IT'S BY FAR NOT A MAJOR FEATURE. IT COULD BE GONE TOMORROW AND I DOUBT IT WOULD BE MISSED.

Azath posted at 5:36AM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405437

Both could learn from one another , instead that each hides in hes little dark room. There was a time where DS could not be without Poser, a time where DS learned from poser. I also believe that allot others learned from Poser as well ... in a way they took the best out of it to grow , the way it seems now is that Poser can not learn from others to grow , so this might be the result of what is happening.

Poser will not be able to make a new start from scratch , not the way it is now , and it is a start from scratch , so how would one expect Poser to catch up on the ones who grew on Poser and developed them selves further? For sure not with a new Doll with the few remains of Creators. these will just vanish in the silence.

Most that have discussions in here are not even Potential creators just some that try giving Ideas to those , But were are they , are they even Listening ? Some might but for sure not enough.

At the end it will not be up to Bondware on how Poser will end up it will be on the engagements of the users . So my point would be learn from others like they learned from you to make it better. The splitting of Poser and DS was already a mistake in first hand and there is as much fault in Poser as in DS that it came to this Point . I guess from the Poser side it is just Jealousy.

So actually it does not matter if one Uses poser or not in these forums as we can learn from one another .

IMAGINE ME JUMPING UP AND DOWN AND SCREAMING, "YES, YES, AND YES!" THANK YOU FOR THE KINDLY STATED FACTS. I APPRECIATE YOU BACKING ME UP. THANK YOU!

ANGRY MAN TYPE IN ALL CAPS! GRRRR! BAHHHH! HUMBUG! GET OFF MY LAWN! STUPID KIDS!

I'VE ENJOYED THE THREAD TREMENDOUSLY BUT I'M NOT SURE I'LL BE RESPONDING FURTHER. THE ONLY PEOPLE HERE ARE ENGAGED IN TRYING TO GOAD ME, LYING OUTRIGHT ABOUT POSER AND COMPETITOR DETAILS, OR THEY'RE AGREEING WITH ME (YES IT HAPPENS SOMETIMES). SO I LEAVE YOU ALL WITH ONE PARTING POINT;

The truth and facts do not give a rotten darn about your precious feelings or opinions. Like feelings and opinions - everyone has one and most smell of a particularly foul orifice. Don't bash the facts even if you don't like them because one day you may need them to save you. Peace-out! (Drops mike, exits left and realizes he has more important things to do than school idiots and try to save a dying software from its own management.)

LOL. I was thinking more "Old man yells at cloud."

wolf359 posted at 8:10AM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405473

BTW, you really do not need a morph brush to fix "poke through" if you model your clothing correctly, as I Did for Genesis and now the the CC3 bases, and your rigging /weighting system actually works properly.

Ok better not shout that out loud else that are going to start removing even more feature ( Short cut to fix ) and then it will end up to be a Major upgrade , I mean downgrade ! Poser might end up with the primary features of Poser 4 if they continue removing as much. You can also sell something as new when you Downgraded it :)

better not shout that out loud else that are going to start removing >even more feature ( Short cut to fix ) and then it will end up to be >a Major upgrade , I mean downgrade ! Poser might end up with the >primary >features of Poser 4

The morph brush is a decent feature ,I have tried it in my old Poser pro 2014.?

I ony mentioned it because certain people like to put forth the narrative that Migrating to Daz studio for true Genesis access will be some horrible step backward because DS has no morph brush as though not having one makes a program unusable when properly modeled conformers and cloth weighting/rigging options make the need for an after the fact morph brush repair rather moot.?

Seriously if I still actually bought figure clothing, instead a creating it myself, and it had major poke thru I would demand a refund.?

And as far as creating custom figure morphs you can do that much better with the professional Free sculpting toos of Blender if you can't afford Zbrush

Finally I do not dispute or bloody care that some person spent $750 USD on third party tools,for Daz studio.?

However if such a person wishes us to believe that such an expenditure is necccesary for the typical Portrait/Pinup renders that populate the Daz& Poser galleries, then he needs to show us one of his AMAZING DS renders and explain how it was only made possible with $750 dollars of scripts & plugins ?

Deecey posted at 4:54AM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405316

Smith didn't add the cloth sim. Curious Labs did 5 years before SM was in the picture. That's right. The original Poser team, some of who are now working with Bondware.

JAG posted at 1:20PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405465

MY SINCERE APOLOGIES. I DIDN'T REALIZE I WAS TALKING TO AN IDIOT. CLOTHING SIMULATION - NOT CLOTHING. CLOTHING AS IN CONFORMING WAS ADDED BY CURIOUS LABS BUT CLOTH SIMULATION WAS NOT ADDED UNTIL SMITH TOOK OVER AND IT DEBUTED WITH POSER PRO 2010 GO SEE HERE UNINFORMED PERSON: BOTTOM OF THE PAGE. READ AND WEEP OVER YOUR IGNORANCE.

Uummm .... if you re-read the page you linked to, you will see that Curious Labs introduced dynamic hair and cloth (cloth simulation) with Poser 5 in 2003. It was a huge step forward at the time!

I too might be more interested in getting Poser 12 if there was an easy way to import and use Genesis figures/content even though there are no serious new features or innovation in Poser 12. The lack of inspiring promo images for Poser 12 (except for one very nice image) made it clear to me that I am not a part of the target demographic that the new owners and developers are targeting, and that Poser isn't moving in the same direction I want to go. The lack of being able to easily use the Genesis content I have in Poser, it's clear that I'm not who they want as a customer. Yes, I have quite a bit of V3/V4/G4 and some A3 content which I could use. But to be perfectly honest, these old figures are simply a huge pain in the rear to use compared to Genesis (I recently did a quick G4 render, and wow, I had forgotten all the hoop jumping you have to do to use the older figures).

So in general I agree with your assertions that Poser development has grown a bit stagnant, with very little innovation. However, I will continue to watch with great interest to see if the development plan is to eventually redo a bunch of the underlying code to support modern/standard things like a single uni-mesh figure. However, without significant improvements or innovation, I really can't justify purchasing Poser 12 right now.

ssgbryan posted at 1:27PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405418

For a person that doesn't use Poser, you certainly spend a lot of time in the Poser forums.

Neither you nor I care what DS users do.

The OP is whining about using DS content in Poser. I suggested that the OP move to DS, and get ready to spend for scripts to replicate the features that they appear to be used to. Unlike you, I have already been down that rabbit hole, the cost is $750. I already provided you a list of the scripts, the cost, and the Poser feature they duplicate.

And your only retort was that you didn't need those features - which wasn't the issue.

Once again, I feel compelled to dispute your assertions that it costs $750 to make DS do what poser can do. If you have truly spent thousands of dollars at DAZ, then you know that only someone with more money than good sense ever pays full list price for anything at DAZ. We did go over this once before, you provided a list of needed items, I went through it item by item, provided what the items actually cost me, and which items were not really needed because the functionality exists within DS (where the add-ons just provide simple one click solutions, but the functionality is provided within the DS UI), and I think you also included FaceShop?? to give the same functionality as the Face Room in Poser (something I don't need, don't use in either application). IIRC my bottom line total for DS was less than Poser, and IIRC the discussion was before DAZ bought KeyMate and GraphMate, which are now included in DS for free. When you make these claims, you really should inform people that you are using the full list price (not the price that most DS users would pay), that some of the products aren't really needed but make life easier, and some of the items people might not ever use in either application.

Just to correct the record, Curious Labs Poser 5 is the first version where dynamic clothing was implemented. It was released in 2003.

And you're truncating the argument, Wolf. It was about having all the bells and whistles of Poser when moving to DS, **not **about needing said options for DS to be usable. It had little to do with the mighty G thing, Gray Golem, etc. This happened at the time Genesis first came out (which wasn't that impressive in initial release (which was also true of DS and DS 2). And at that time, the now defunct clothing sim, animation system, and other assorted add ons needed for that functionality were about $700, because in several cases you were also buying 3rd party licences. The base program may have been 'free', but anything beyond that was $$$. DS at that time had fewer features that P4 did; its one trick was Genesis when it came out. You didn't need the add ons if you just wanted to do still renders, but if you wanted dynamic cloth, the animation system which was a bit better than Poser's, the rendering improvements and so on, you had to pay for them. You and I both know you were mad that the Poser animation controls kept getting skipped over release after release. I was too (Full IK/FK system, please....?)

BTW, I'm investigating Blender as part of my pipeline now. Manta Ray is giving me shivers, and I have a 12 core Threadripper for it to throw floats at. Just need to get the renderdarden updated (everything uses AVX instructions, and the older Athlons lack those) and all the distributed renderers installed again.

And you're correct dustrider, that you could get the addons far cheaper if you shopped and waited. But if you wanted it immediately, you did pay a premium price in many cases. This argument was from the days of DS-2, and those are the standards applied. Present day conditions are far different.

Smith didn't add the cloth sim. Curious Labs did 5 years before SM was in the picture. That's right. The original Poser team, some of who are now working with Bondware.

JAG posted at 1:20PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405465

MY SINCERE APOLOGIES. I DIDN'T REALIZE I WAS TALKING TO AN IDIOT. CLOTHING SIMULATION - NOT CLOTHING. CLOTHING AS IN CONFORMING WAS ADDED BY CURIOUS LABS BUT CLOTH SIMULATION WAS NOT ADDED UNTIL SMITH TOOK OVER AND IT DEBUTED WITH POSER PRO 2010 GO SEE HERE UNINFORMED PERSON: BOTTOM OF THE PAGE. READ AND WEEP OVER YOUR IGNORANCE.

ROFL. Perhaps he should look at the Poser 5 manual. Poser 5 was released in 2003 under Curious Labs.

Heh. He claims to have experience with Poser back to the mid-'90s, and says anyone who doesn't should shut up.

But...I would think anyone who really did have experience from the mid-90s would remember that Poser 5 gave us the hair room and the cloth room. They were a big freakin' deal. The first dynamic cloth I used were dresses made for Judy and V3.

randym77 posted at 5:09PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405526

Heh. He claims to have experience with Poser back to the mid-'90s, and says anyone who doesn't should shut up.

But...I would think anyone who really did have experience from the mid-90s would remember that Poser 5 gave us the hair room and the cloth room. They were a big freakin' deal. The first dynamic cloth I used were dresses made for Judy and V3.

And the face room as well. I wrote the docs for those three chapters. But I'm the idiot, pay no attention. I must have imagined it. ;-)

Care to share which new features of any consequence Smith Micro added after they let the original team go in 2016? I'm waiting. 8-)

I'M NOT. WHY YOU THINK I'M STILL WORKING ON P10 MAN?! THEY MESSED UP LETTING THAT ORIGINAL TEAM GO.

I know. I was one of them. And I will repeat. Poser 11 was doing just fine. The problem was that SM's IT division did poorly for a couple of years. There were layoffs company-wide. To cut costs, the graphics team (most of who were in California) were let go, and they moved graphics programming to Portugal where costs were lower. A couple of other people were added in Pennsylvania as well.

But there was very little done to Poser after the original team was let go (one "point" release and two bug fixes for that in 3 years time) and by the time Bondware acquired it I think the graphics division sales were down to probably 10-20% what they were before the original Poser and Moho teams were let go. Your comment would make sense if you got that email after 2016, when the original team was let go.

All of this is verifiable if you read their annual stock reports from 2016 to 2020, where quarterly and annual sales figures are listed.

This argument was from the days of DS-2, and those are the standards >applied. Present day >conditions are far different.

Thank you!!

To be clear ,IMHO all versions of DS before 4x and the aniMate motion clip system were "less than useful"?

However we are not at DS2/3 of ten years ago
thus ,in the context of a thread/discussion in late Nov 2020, warning JAG to be prepared to buy $750 worth of plugins if he migrates to DS for the Genesis 8 figures ,is about as intellectually dishonest as someone warning people off Blender based on the horrible UI conventions of Blender 2.4x?

BTW Blender 2.9 has excellent modeling tools for both organic and hard surface, However I chose to buy the Awesome Hard-ops/boxcutter modeling add-ons from Blender market for $99 USD.

However if I start "warning" people that "Blender is not really Free" because of my personal buying decisions, I would expect to be called out for such duplicity by those skilled Blender users who know better.

DustRider posted at 9:19PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405519

Deecey posted at 4:54AM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405316

Smith didn't add the cloth sim. Curious Labs did 5 years before SM was in the picture. That's right. The original Poser team, some of who are now working with Bondware.

JAG posted at 1:20PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405465

MY SINCERE APOLOGIES. I DIDN'T REALIZE I WAS TALKING TO AN IDIOT. CLOTHING SIMULATION - NOT CLOTHING. CLOTHING AS IN CONFORMING WAS ADDED BY CURIOUS LABS BUT CLOTH SIMULATION WAS NOT ADDED UNTIL SMITH TOOK OVER AND IT DEBUTED WITH POSER PRO 2010 GO SEE HERE UNINFORMED PERSON: BOTTOM OF THE PAGE. READ AND WEEP OVER YOUR IGNORANCE.

Uummm .... if you re-read the page you linked to, you will see that Curious Labs introduced dynamic hair and cloth (cloth simulation) with Poser 5 in 2003. It was a huge step forward at the time!

I too might be more interested in getting Poser 12 if there was an easy way to import and use Genesis figures/content even though there are no serious new features or innovation in Poser 12. The lack of inspiring promo images for Poser 12 (except for one very nice image) made it clear to me that I am not a part of the target demographic that the new owners and developers are targeting, and that Poser isn't moving in the same direction I want to go. The lack of being able to easily use the Genesis content I have in Poser, it's clear that I'm not who they want as a customer. Yes, I have quite a bit of V3/V4/G4 and some A3 content which I could use. But to be perfectly honest, these old figures are simply a huge pain in the rear to use compared to Genesis (I recently did a quick G4 render, and wow, I had forgotten all the hoop jumping you have to do to use the older figures).

So in general I agree with your assertions that Poser development has grown a bit stagnant, with very little innovation. However, I will continue to watch with great interest to see if the development plan is to eventually redo a bunch of the underlying code to support modern/standard things like a single uni-mesh figure. However, without significant improvements or innovation, I really can't justify purchasing Poser 12 right now.

ssgbryan posted at 1:27PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405418

For a person that doesn't use Poser, you certainly spend a lot of time in the Poser forums.

Neither you nor I care what DS users do.

The OP is whining about using DS content in Poser. I suggested that the OP move to DS, and get ready to spend for scripts to replicate the features that they appear to be used to. Unlike you, I have already been down that rabbit hole, the cost is $750. I already provided you a list of the scripts, the cost, and the Poser feature they duplicate.

And your only retort was that you didn't need those features - which wasn't the issue.

Once again, I feel compelled to dispute your assertions that it costs $750 to make DS do what poser can do. If you have truly spent thousands of dollars at DAZ, then you know that only someone with more money than good sense ever pays full list price for anything at DAZ. We did go over this once before, you provided a list of needed items, I went through it item by item, provided what the items actually cost me, and which items were not really needed because the functionality exists within DS (where the add-ons just provide simple one click solutions, but the functionality is provided within the DS UI), and I think you also included FaceShop?? to give the same functionality as the Face Room in Poser (something I don't need, don't use in either application). IIRC my bottom line total for DS was less than Poser, and IIRC the discussion was before DAZ bought KeyMate and GraphMate, which are now included in DS for free. When you make these claims, you really should inform people that you are using the full list price (not the price that most DS users would pay), that some of the products aren't really needed but make life easier, and some of the items people might not ever use in either application.

Thank you for the support on that but I was right about the Poser development. That connotation on "dynamic" is inaccurate. Poser 5 presented "conforming clothing and hair." Somebody as Wikipedia got that wrong. I physically have 5's box sitting on my shelf. Yes I'm weird and I keep software boxes dating all the way back to 3. I also have my old Photoshop boxes from the 90's. Sort of a retro tech fixation I guess. That and I hate tossing out a perfectly good box. So again, wiki-error, not mine.

Thanks some more for the backup on my points!

Deecey posted at 9:28PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405527

randym77 posted at 5:09PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405526

Heh. He claims to have experience with Poser back to the mid-'90s, and says anyone who doesn't should shut up.

But...I would think anyone who really did have experience from the mid-90s would remember that Poser 5 gave us the hair room and the cloth room. They were a big freakin' deal. The first dynamic cloth I used were dresses made for Judy and V3.

And the face room as well. I wrote the docs for those three chapters. But I'm the idiot, pay no attention. I must have imagined it. ;-)

So we should blame you for the confusing chapters throughout Poser's manual then? For real - I wouldn't go bragging about writing anything in the Poser manual(s). I had better instructions and explanations in Japanese plastic model kits that lacked English translation in many cases. I guess maybe I'm blind and stupid. Nope...there it is. Argue with that all you want. The Poser5 thing is clearly wrong. You all realize Wikipedia is not reviewed, right? Errors everywhere.

Always on the attack, aren't you?

And I have no idea who is responsible for the Wikipedia page.

Deecey posted at 9:35PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405530

Care to share which new features of any consequence Smith Micro added after they let the original team go in 2016? I'm waiting. 8-)

I'M NOT. WHY YOU THINK I'M STILL WORKING ON P10 MAN?! THEY MESSED UP LETTING THAT ORIGINAL TEAM GO.

I know. I was one of them. And I will repeat. Poser 11 was doing just fine. The problem was that SM's IT division did poorly for a couple of years. There were layoffs company-wide. To cut costs, the graphics team (most of who were in California) were let go, and they moved graphics programming to Portugal where costs were lower. A couple of other people were added in Pennsylvania as well.

But there was very little done to Poser after the original team was let go (one "point" release and two bug fixes for that in 3 years time) and by the time Bondware acquired it I think the graphics division sales were down to probably 10-20% what they were before the original Poser and Moho teams were let go. Your comment would make sense if you got that email after 2016, when the original team was let go.

All of this is verifiable if you read their annual stock reports from 2016 to 2020, where quarterly and annual sales figures are listed.

It was well after 2016 - probably around the time Bondware was acquiring Poser legally from them. So 2017-18? I'd have to sort my inbox to find the exact mail and date. So then now you admit I'm not completely wrong? Wow, thanks. I agree mismanagement has been an issue for Poser. 11 was the first crash. You agree with that, yes? But the same path has been followed except Bondware is doing worse. I just don't think Bondware (good intentions or not) has the ability to field a team large enough to really bring Poser back up to where it should be. It's not the people working on it's fault - it's management. Either lack of effort or money - but either way it's management. They're who I'm fussing at. Programmers and tech only do what they're told. I've not yelled in their direction - not once! Give me some credit. I know what it is like to work for morons who don't listen to you and run whole companies into the ground.

Deecey posted at 9:40PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405546

Always on the attack, aren't you?

And I have no idea who is responsible for the Wikipedia page.

The art of debate is lost in this socialist feel-good era I suppose. Yes, I'm on the attack as this is an open debate. Pick a side and battle! Stop whining because I shoot your points down or don't agree with them. The idea of debate is to win with facts and if the opponent continues to fend off facts, you move into the realm of psychology - from which you try to knock them off their game and make them rethink their own positions. You've failed at both so far. You fact-check me and I counter it and so you get smarmy and I don't care - smarming right back. You're not winning the debate at all. In fact, by whining about me being on the attack (technically defensive since it's my thread and you all came in and attacked my position and points without invitation) - you've just made yourself look even more childish. My thread and my points. You all entered it willingly and began to attack me and mine. You don't get to call me out for being aggressive with my defense. This pot of water boils...if you can't handle the heat, I'd urge you to climb out and take your chances on the burner.

Stand up and debate like you got some. If you lose, nod and step away like a man. If you win, you may tap-dance on my proverbial face. But don't resort to childish insults and jabs. That's just sad for you.

JAG posted at 9:50PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405545

Deecey posted at 9:28PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405527

randym77 posted at 5:09PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405526

Heh. He claims to have experience with Poser back to the mid-'90s, and says anyone who doesn't should shut up.

But...I would think anyone who really did have experience from the mid-90s would remember that Poser 5 gave us the hair room and the cloth room. They were a big freakin' deal. The first dynamic cloth I used were dresses made for Judy and V3.

And the face room as well. I wrote the docs for those three chapters. But I'm the idiot, pay no attention. I must have imagined it. ;-)

So we should blame you for the confusing chapters throughout Poser's manual then? For real - I wouldn't go bragging about writing anything in the Poser manual(s). I had better instructions and explanations in Japanese plastic model kits that lacked English translation in many cases. I guess maybe I'm blind and stupid. Nope...there it is. Argue with that all you want. The Poser5 thing is clearly wrong. You all realize Wikipedia is not reviewed, right? Errors everywhere.

My first piece of dynamic cloth at sharcg says: Added 13 years ago. Description says: Tested with P7.

https://sharecg.com/v/16079/gallery/11/Poser/V3-simple-shirt-1

It was well after 2016 - probably around the time Bondware was acquiring Poser legally from them. So 2017-18? I'd have to sort my inbox to find the exact mail and date. So then now you admit I'm not completely wrong?

Well, you are PARTLY wrong. You appear to be a little mixed up on the timing of, and who was responsible for, Poser 11 which is why I kept trying to tell you that Poser was doing fine when the original team was there.

The ORIGINAL TEAM was there when Poser 11 was released in Nov 2015. There were (IIRC) 5 or 6 service releases done in the weeks and months that followed. The original team was let go in Nov 2016, after which the new team took over. There may have been a couple of original team members there when 11.0.7 and 11.0.8 were released, and to help the new team during the transition.

The first release from the NEW team was Poser 11.1 ... there is one place that says that was released in Dec 2017. Then according to online sources, 11.1.1 was released in Jan 2019.

Bondware's first "bridge" release, to resolve the issues before SMSI broke their activation server, was released in Sept 2019. So it's been in their hands for a little over a year now. Considering they have actually done MORE in that year than the new team did in the 3 they had it, I think they are owed some credit and are again moving Poser forward. I had little hope with SM's new team. I DO have hope now. So I'm sorry to say, I disagree with you.

That being said, I haven't tried to be nasty when I have responded to you. I really don't appreciate being called "an idiot" by someone who doesn't listen, but it is what it is. I have to bow out again here, because to reply any more will only perpetuate the insults further. All I was trying to do was respond to your posts with FACTS. That's all.

Have a good day.

Sorry, but you are mistaken, the error is the association of "Dynamic Cloth and Strand Based Hair" with Poser 2010. IIRC SM "improved" some of the functions/UI for 2010, but it was there long before that. In fact, I was the first person to develop dynamic clothing for Glamorous Jessie, a Jim Burton re-work of the Jessie figure that came with Poser 5. Here is a render of Glamorous Jessie in the dynamic cloth outfit I created for her: https://www.renderosity.com/rr/mod/gallery/i-wonder-/1386549/ (yes, it's pretty bad, but that was Poser 5). Here is another image done with the same outfit, refitted to V3, and rendered in Carrara Studio 4 Pro using Transposer to move the figure (with dynamic cloth) into Carrara for rendering: https://www.renderosity.com/rr/mod/gallery/eve-wip-/887298/ . If you still have the box, then you probably still have the manual, which will clear up the confusion. Wikipedia is often wrong, or as in this instance, missing some critical information.

Seriously though, you should remember the introduction of dynamic cloth in Poser 5, it was a really big deal. Just incase you still don't believe it, here is a tutorial from 2005 on Dynamic cloth in Poser 5 https://www.renderosity.com/rr/mod/tutorial/?tutorial_id=868 (sorry, live links seem to be broken right now, so you'll need to copy/paste the url's).

Sorry, but you are mistaken, the error is the association of "Dynamic Cloth and Strand Based Hair" with Poser 2010.

That might be when they added bullet physics,

Deecey posted at 10:11PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405554

Sorry, but you are mistaken, the error is the association of "Dynamic Cloth and Strand Based Hair" with Poser 2010.

That might be when they added bullet physics,

That sounds about right.

Another tutorial for dynamic cloth in Poser 5: http://www.render-lab.com/Dynamic_Clothes.htm

DustRider posted at 10:20PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405555

Deecey posted at 10:11PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405554

Sorry, but you are mistaken, the error is the association of "Dynamic Cloth and Strand Based Hair" with Poser 2010.

That might be when they added bullet physics,

That sounds about right.

Yes, bullet physics was Poser 10/Pro 2014. The people that wrote the Wikipedia blurb for Poser must have gotten it confused with the other dynamics. I have NO idea who kept that up for SM.

You can even buy Poser 5 on Amazon, take a quick look at the features .... (link: https://www.amazon.com/Curious-Labs-Inc-Poser-5/dp/B00006IXA4)

"Poser 5 is an ideal 3-D character design and animation tool for artists and animators. Create 3-D figures using a diverse collection of ready-to-use 3-D human and animal models. Poser's innovative interface makes figure design, posing, and animating fast and easy. Map facial photos, grow and style dynamic hair, and create dynamic cloth to add extraordinary realism to your figure.

Quickly output movies and images from your posed figures for content in Web, print, and video projects. Add life to your 3-D worlds using exported, posed figures. For those new to 3-D, digital artists, and hobbyists alike, Poser 5 is easy to learn and quickly generates fast and dynamic results.

Poser 5 delivers a stunning host of new tools including Facial Photo-mapping, Dynamic Strand-based Hair, Dynamic Cloth, new Figures, and FireFly, Poser 5's powerful new renderer. Use Morph Putty to directly manipulate facial expressions. Create realistic dynamic cloth and make it flow and drape around any object in your scene. Build powerful node-based material shaders to create any material texture you can imagine. The Poser 5 Content CD contains a host of extras, including props and textures."

Deecey posted at 10:24PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405557

DustRider posted at 10:20PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405555

Deecey posted at 10:11PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405554

Sorry, but you are mistaken, the error is the association of "Dynamic Cloth and Strand Based Hair" with Poser 2010.

That might be when they added bullet physics,

That sounds about right.

Yes, bullet physics was Poser 10/Pro 2014. The people that wrote the Wikipedia blurb for Poser must have gotten it confused with the other dynamics. I have NO idea who kept that up for SM.

No doubt somebody in marketing. it sounds good, and people in the board room wouldn't know it was wrong :)

After this big trip down memory lane I remember why I had such high hopes for Poser!!!

And finally a tutorial from Nerd3D (AKA Charles, the same Charles who I believe is in charge of Poser development now??) done in 2005, for Poser 5!! http://www.nerd3d.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=4

And in case you can't find your Poser 5 Manual, here it is (look on page 58)

http://www.dawnstarbooks.com/samples/samples/AnthonyHernandez_TWSample_L.pdf

Deecey posted at 1:46AM Mon, 23 November 2020 - #4405552

It was well after 2016 - probably around the time Bondware was acquiring Poser legally from them. So 2017-18? I'd have to sort my inbox to find the exact mail and date. So then now you admit I'm not completely wrong?

Well, you are PARTLY wrong. You appear to be a little mixed up on the timing of, and who was responsible for, Poser 11 which is why I kept trying to tell you that Poser was doing fine when the original team was there.

The ORIGINAL TEAM was there when Poser 11 was released in Nov 2015. There were (IIRC) 5 or 6 service releases done in the weeks and months that followed. The original team was let go in Nov 2016, after which the new team took over. There may have been a couple of original team members there when 11.0.7 and 11.0.8 were released, and to help the new team during the transition.

The first release from the NEW team was Poser 11.1 ... there is one place that says that was released in Dec 2017. Then according to online sources, 11.1.1 was released in Jan 2019.

Bondware's first "bridge" release, to resolve the issues before SMSI broke their activation server, was released in Sept 2019. So it's been in their hands for a little over a year now. Considering they have actually done MORE in that year than the new team did in the 3 they had it, I think they are owed some credit and are again moving Poser forward. I had little hope with SM's new team. I DO have hope now. So I'm sorry to say, I disagree with you.

That being said, I haven't tried to be nasty when I have responded to you. I really don't appreciate being called "an idiot" by someone who doesn't listen, but it is what it is. I have to bow out again here, because to reply any more will only perpetuate the insults further. All I was trying to do was respond to your posts with FACTS. That's all.

Have a good day.

Well if that's in fact the case, then the old team screwed 11 up first. I therefore retract my assertion about it. I have no idea when said original team left but if, as you say, they were responsible for 11, then I can see why Smith released them from duties. 11 is a joke with no punchline. It continues to be bad and 12 is showing practically no improvement. Though knowing this now (pending you know what you're talking about) -- it does make sense why they ran the original team out.

DustRider posted at 1:50AM Mon, 23 November 2020 - #4405553

Sorry, but you are mistaken, the error is the association of "Dynamic Cloth and Strand Based Hair" with Poser 2010. IIRC SM "improved" some of the functions/UI for 2010, but it was there long before that. In fact, I was the first person to develop dynamic clothing for Glamorous Jessie, a Jim Burton re-work of the Jessie figure that came with Poser 5. Here is a render of Glamorous Jessie in the dynamic cloth outfit I created for her: https://www.renderosity.com/rr/mod/gallery/i-wonder-/1386549/ (yes, it's pretty bad, but that was Poser 5). Here is another image done with the same outfit, refitted to V3, and rendered in Carrara Studio 4 Pro using Transposer to move the figure (with dynamic cloth) into Carrara for rendering: https://www.renderosity.com/rr/mod/gallery/eve-wip-/887298/ . If you still have the box, then you probably still have the manual, which will clear up the confusion. Wikipedia is often wrong, or as in this instance, missing some critical information.

Seriously though, you should remember the introduction of dynamic cloth in Poser 5, it was a really big deal. Just incase you still don't believe it, here is a tutorial from 2005 on Dynamic cloth in Poser 5 https://www.renderosity.com/rr/mod/tutorial/?tutorial_id=868 (sorry, live links seem to be broken right now, so you'll need to copy/paste the url's).

Well it is possible that I'm recalling it incorrectly. I won't say without doubt that it isn't but as noted, Wiki has it listed in two sections. But my only point originally was that the development of dynamic cloth simulation and even conforming clothing were all gigantic leaps forward when nobody else had it. This system of grand steps and big innovations is what made me salivate every time a new version was coming out. That hasn't happened since 11. There was simply nothing to feed the 20 year Poser fan in me. And so I never bought it. I got it gifted to me by Bondware as an apology that Smith stopped my GameDev from working (a blatant violation of my EULA with them). That's another rant for a different thread. But anyway, the point wasn't "when" the innovations occurred but rather that they did and quite regularly with new versions --- and now they don't.

Deecey posted at 1:54AM Mon, 23 November 2020 - #4405557

DustRider posted at 10:20PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405555

Deecey posted at 10:11PM Sun, 22 November 2020 - #4405554

Sorry, but you are mistaken, the error is the association of "Dynamic Cloth and Strand Based Hair" with Poser 2010.

That might be when they added bullet physics,

That sounds about right.

Yes, bullet physics was Poser 10/Pro 2014. The people that wrote the Wikipedia blurb for Poser must have gotten it confused with the other dynamics. I have NO idea who kept that up for SM.

Well the physics thing was more or less what I was talking about. Are you guys talking about dynamic clothing simulations? Maybe we're all thinking of different aspects of that. But either or is still radically cool innovations so the argument is moot. I was just saying they don't do stuff like this now.

DustRider posted at 1:59AM Mon, 23 November 2020 - #4405561

And finally a tutorial from Nerd3D (AKA Charles, the same Charles who I believe is in charge of Poser development now??) done in 2005, for Poser 5!! http://www.nerd3d.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=4

Yes he's still part of the team but I'm not sure if he's the head now. He was for Smith with regard to 11. I wonder if this is when things went south?

Well again, regardless of whether I lose the argument about 5 vs. 10 for the cloth simulations / bullet physics ---- my original point was that it represented a significantly cool innovation for Poser. I was holding it up as an example of what's missing in the last four years of development. Bug fix...improvement...bug fix...rinse and repeat - and yet the only thing that excited me enough to get involved again was the ability to export SubD figures to Zbrush to make HD morphs that would be retained in Poser format. And of course as mentioned, the exchange does not work for me...and never has. I've tried it on three separate computers and even again on my main workstation after upgrading to a more modern graphics card. And it still doesn't work. So to me, the one awesome innovation added in the last four years is a disheartening bust that Charles and company don't seem real concerned with fixing. Meanwhile they toil away endlessly on everything else apparently. I did my part to help them figure the bug out at the time I reported it and I went back and forth for a couple of weeks and finally I just realized they didn't care so I stopped bothering to assist. So again, this one dating/version debate is moot quite honestly. But that said, I did find screenshots showing a CLOTH room tab in Poser 5 so there was clearly some sort of clothing addition with it. But whether it was CL or Smith that brought us clothing simulation and bullet physics the point is that they did and 11 and 12 present us with nothing worthy of the price for the upgrade. Bondware - THINK BIG! - if you want to save Poser.

The problem with Wikipedia is that anyone can post anything there. It's just plain wrong about strand-based hair.

There was a change made in the hair room around then. I don't recall exactly which version of Poser it was, but they changed the way density worked or something. That's why dynamic hair made for Poser 5 looks so sparse if you use it in more recent versions of Poser. Maybe that's what it was referring to?

Maybe it's time to close this thread. Apart from the fact that JAG will not post any images of his work to show how important Poser is to his income, he seems to be interested only in confrontation. and proclaiming that he is the best ... As for being in at the start, well I started with Fortran 4 and punched cards (using toothpicks at first,) before JAG appeared on the scene (at 45 he is roughly as old as my younger son). And if anyone can claim anything about modern computers I reckon Steve Jobs and his mates (and Bill Gates) have prior claim, not JAG. I think he overrates his personal contribution to the development of the modern PC.

I have read through all the posts. And, to be honest, they are very boring. Maybe JAG is having a "mid-life-crisis" or whatever it's called? Any road up, this thread is totally unnecessary. Whether Poser 11 and 12 are good or bad is a matter of personal opinion, and really, we could well do without drama queens who think they are God's gift to the computer world.

As it seems this thread has come to end of it's usefulness we need to shut it down. I wish this wasn't the case.