I haven't made the move to Poser 12 yet and have a few questions regarding how the program handles rendering using the Firefly engine in conjunction with an RTX 30 series graphics card.  I know that the GPU on the card is an enhancement for the Superfly, but does it do anything for Firefly?  I do more "graphic" style render/artwork than photo-real, (actually I do only "graphic art" style work, no photo-real at all.)

Does the RTX series of cards offer any enhancement or advantage in Poser 12 for Firefly? Any speed increases, etc? Again, this is FIREFLY only discussion.

Cheers,

Davo

Doubtful. Firefly runs on the CPU regardless of what GPU you have. Might help response time while you are working, before rendering.

That's a shame :-(  Is Firefly something that can be tweaked to take advantage of GPU by the poser software team? Just curious, I know nothing about rendering engines.

I think that porting Firefly to GTX/RTX-based computing is project by itself because, if I've understood correctly,  not everything's possible using a GPU.
The "Branched Path Tracing" option is a good example of what is actually not possible, as a GPU's instructions set is rather small, compared to common CPU's

I highly doubt that, by now, they'll tamper with Firefly. It's a very outdated render engine, and we have Superfly. 

I highly doubt that, by now, they'll tamper with Firefly. It's a very outdated render engine, and we have Superfly. 

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 6:37 AM Thu, 3 February 2022 - #4434319

I highly doubt that, by now, they'll tamper with Firefly. It's a very outdated render engine, and we have Superfly. 

That would mean that at some point many old-time users will have to convert to Superfly whether they want to or not.  The cartoonists will be up in arms.  But, in thinking about this, that may be a long way in the future.

Hopefully, before it gets depreciated, we'll get a quick alternative for comic artists. Eevee is a good example of that in Blender. Almost real-time renders that aren't just basic previews. I'm not saying they should use Eevee. I don't know that they can. It was just an example that there are quick alternatives that people can use besides firefly.

I'm curious if those who use firefly would make the switch to superfly if they could render as fast or faster with it than with firefly.

Hopefully, before it gets depreciated, we'll get a quick alternative for comic artists. Eevee is a good example of that in Blender. Almost real-time renders that aren't just basic previews. I'm not saying they should use Eevee. I don't know that they can. It was just an example that there are quick alternatives that people can use besides firefly.

I'm curious if those who use firefly would make the switch to superfly if they could render as fast or faster with it than with firefly.

Over in https://www.renderosity.com/forums/threads/2967461/making-things-optional you'll see Nerd saying "That's exactly why FireFly isn't going anywhere. Super fly does great realistic renders but falls short in other areas like cartoon and other non-photographic render styles."

Yes, they are pressing ahead to develop Cycles further.  However, there are some things that Eevee can't do yet that Cycles can handle better.  It would be good for Poser if these improvements and features can be implemented sooner than later.

I had to look up Eevee. In case anyone else does too: https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/latest/render/eevee/introduction.html

I'm not sure how Eevee would be any better for cartoon rendering than Superfly is (aside from being faster of course). If it's possible to do in Eevee using Cycles type nodes, then in principle it should be possible to do the same in Superfly with the same Cycles nodes. Maybe it is?

That said, personally I use Superfly and better Cycles previews would be a huge upgrade.

Right now Poser has 4 render options, Superfly, Firefly, Preview, and Sketch. Superfly is great for realism but takes longer to render. Firefly renders faster but realism is a lot harder. Many realism shaders need dozens of nodes while Superfly only needs a few. Preview is super fast, but shaders are limited. People rarely talk about sketch renders so I don't know much about it except I personally can't get anything decent from it. I'm sure others have.

Since davo uses Firefly, I'm assuming he needs more shader capability than is available with preview renders. I only used Eevee as an example of something that can do cartoons and still add a bit more, not that Poser needs to add that. I'm sure there are other render engines that can be used also. And I was thinking well down the road, not something that was planned anytime soon.

I had a lengthy discussion at the other website about photo-real versus graphic art style. Most people there preferred to render photo-real because it was a challenge, however, when asked what they look for in 3d art or comids that aren't their own or when they aren't doing art, they seemed to prefer the graphic art or toon look, which made my kinda scratch my head.  Personally, I love the graphic art look and feel, and when I go looking at online comics, the "photo-real" comics just don't have the same appeal, it has to be done so damn good or it's fakey.  I realize as software progresses the challenge to create something that looks so realistic is the challenge, but there is another group of artists, myself included, that would prefer to have more graphic art options than photo-real.  When making a comic or story with multiple panels and images, photoreal becomes a challenge when trying to maintain consistency of look and feel. Some models you purchase are textured photo-real and some are kinda-meh, when put together in the same scene, they really stand out next to each other and it ruins the continuity.  Graphic art style rendering covers a multitude of sins in that regard, it blends everything together, better, in my opinion. Also, when doing stories or multiple image comics, superfly is hella slow waiting for a render.  That's why I get kind of nervous of firefly going the way of the dinosaur, I don't want it phased out. I bought poser to help me with my lack of hand drawn skills back in the day, as time goes on however, the Poser focus went to trying to create a photo-realistic image.  Tools for us graphic artists are still very much desired, please take note Bondware :-)

doesn't firefly "have" cell material that would render click fast on one of those blazing 200 watt cards?

I'm curious if those who use firefly would make the switch to superfly if they could render as fast or faster with it than with firefly.

I might use it more often, but I actually prefer the results you get with Firefly. I don't particularly want my renders to look photoreal. I mean, it's fun to play with sometimes, but I think even Firefly is often further into the uncanny valley than I want to be.

Firefly renders look sharper to me, and I think hair, especially dynamic hair, looks a lot better in Firefly.

davo posted at 5:02 PM Thu, 3 February 2022 - #4434347

I had a lengthy discussion at the other website about photo-real versus graphic art style. Most people there preferred to render photo-real because it was a challenge, however, when asked what they look for in 3d art or comids that aren't their own or when they aren't doing art, they seemed to prefer the graphic art or toon look, which made my kinda scratch my head.  Personally, I love the graphic art look and feel, and when I go looking at online comics, the "photo-real" comics just don't have the same appeal, it has to be done so damn good or it's fakey.  I realize as software progresses the challenge to create something that looks so realistic is the challenge, but there is another group of artists, myself included, that would prefer to have more graphic art options than photo-real.  When making a comic or story with multiple panels and images, photoreal becomes a challenge when trying to maintain consistency of look and feel. Some models you purchase are textured photo-real and some are kinda-meh, when put together in the same scene, they really stand out next to each other and it ruins the continuity.  Graphic art style rendering covers a multitude of sins in that regard, it blends everything together, better, in my opinion. Also, when doing stories or multiple image comics, superfly is hella slow waiting for a render.  That's why I get kind of nervous of firefly going the way of the dinosaur, I don't want it phased out. I bought poser to help me with my lack of hand drawn skills back in the day, as time goes on however, the Poser focus went to trying to create a photo-realistic image.  Tools for us graphic artists are still very much desired, please take note Bondware :-)

I've also noticed that art that looks hand-drawn gets a lot more love (on social media, etc.) than art that looks "3D." I think people are jaded on 3D now. They see it in games all the time, and just assume it's easy, the computer does it all.

I'd like to see more options for illustrative or comic type renders. The software formerly known as Manga Studio has a module that let you pose and render 3D models in a graphic/manga style. I'd love to see something like that in Poser.

Well if you look at art history, in particular painting, there was a steady move towards more realism (particulary with the arrival of the Renaissance) until the advent of photography. Once photography became very common there was a push into modernism and deliberate thoughtful abstraction became the avant garde. To the point that conventional representational works were regarded in a not so favorable light in critical art circles, being relegated to "merely illustration". The attitude persisted, and perhaps still does in Fine Art intelligentsia attitudes and academia, although since "postmodernism" there's... ah nevermind.

Anyway. I'm willing to bet that once really convincing "photo" "realism" is a common, inexpensive, uncomplicated/easily achieved thing in digital animation and art... that is, you can open your Poser 2035 and there's a completely photoreal figure in an idle animation waiting there... there will be a push toward deliberate abstraction and exploration. Me personally I like a sort of magic realism, illustrative blend of things. It's funny that the most naive Poser render that would be scoffed at by purists or bleeding edge types would be considered very realistic to illustrators from 50 years ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_realism

...the fact that someone would think that one version ago of software is "outdated" on the realism front tells anyone all they need to know about the infancy of the medium. Eventually it will plateau.

I disagree that Superfly is strictly for photoreal, but that's just me and how I work. It is definitely more life-like and you *can* achieve the uncanny valley, but it's main advantage *for me* is simpler lighting, simpler materials, faster renders for 21st century computers.

I disagree that Superfly is strictly for photoreal, but that's just me and how I work. It is definitely more life-like and you *can* achieve the uncanny valley, but it's main advantage *for me* is simpler lighting, simpler materials, faster renders for 21st century computers.

No comment.

Poser has been running on PC for more than 24 years, at least... 🤣

Sorry but I couldn't resist... 😁

I wasn't being (entirely) facetious... every once in a while someone will appear on the forum asking a question about 6 or 7. I still have my Poser 2 disc. Unfortunately no cover. Hence no serial. Kind of a bummer. I wonder if it would even be usable in windows 10. I'm really surprised how many of those old quality of life Poser utility apps still run in windows 10. Anyway, apologies for the drift. As far as the original topic, I think having an nvidia card is advantageous for preview stuff. I've been playing a bit with Iray and it certainly gets it's motor running there.

My computer's a few years old now, but I don't think it's too outdated. 12 core processor, 64 Gb of RAM, Nvidia GeForce GTX 1080. I find Superfly painfully slow, and the results unpleasantly grainy. I tried the denoiser, but then it looked blurry.

I do like some of the Dawn 2 renders Cath has posted. I think it's the hair. The hair shader she uses looks better than any I've found.

my current system is over 12 years old I have Posering since Poser 2 I've been a member here since 2002 and I still want a cell shader for my firefly W10 system

Transmapped Hair in any Poser renderer is a bummer. The really nice ones in Superfly are so resource heavy. Even some of the best realism renderer folks here bouts still suffer from occasional gift ribbon hair in their renders. Beware the stampede of Superfly hair renders forthcoming. For me I just use Firefly because that's good enough for my things, and I'm used to it. I spend most of my time creating dials and sculpting in other apps so being on the cutting edge isn't a priority. I'm also a Blender and 3DCoat user, and now DS. They all have fancy renderers. In my eyes the advantages are the nifty materials but that's coming from the perspective of someone who likes creating maps. If I'm going to make "a picture" I'll use Firefly. Some of the material tests I've done in Superfly and cycles have turned out pretty good, the grain in Superfly didn't really bother me but I use like 15 and up samples. If you're a person who primarily uses Poser to make pictures of content you've bought I can see the priorities, or if you're a content creator who sells their work getting on board with Superfly should be a priority probably.

As far as OP goes, Davo... if anyone is familiar with his work over the years he kind of has developed his own unique thing. I can generally recognize an image by Davo pretty immediately. It's a combination of things lol. It would be a little jarring (putting it politely) to see his work in a more "realistic" way... maybe not even advantageous to his oeuvre ;)

a cell shader on the poser 2 male hair would render in a blink on a modern cpu gpu combo click bam rendered

a cell shader on the poser 2 male hair would render in a blink on a modern cpu gpu combo click bam rendered

Anime Girl La Femme has some example toon shaders; OpenGL, Firefly, and Superfly flavors IIRC. Still haven't gotten around to anything but looking at the morphs in that pack. Bagginsbill had some cel shading toon formulas for Firefly, eventually expanded into something called LLAnime IIRC. There was Semidieu's Toon Shaders for Firefly. The toon options built into Poser aren't bad, especially with the expanded OpenGL options. It's not Miyazaki but with enough post pretty damn good for toon stuff. I personally adore Poser's preview renderer. Hopefully more work expanding those options in the future. Poser is excellent and very practical for stylized comics work and NPR type stuff.

LoL, I still use Poser 5 to convert heir files and rig my models. I texture in Poser 2012pro and Render in Poser 11 Pro.  I use firefly exclusively and as mentioned earlier, the Superfly and Iray render engines do have that dotty-film grainy look to them that I absolutely cannot stand plus the render times are horrendous just to wait and spot a mistake.

I have an i9 processor, 64 gigs ram and RTX 2080. When I do a render I do hear that graphics card wind up for cooling, so it must be drawing some power from the card, maybe? I dunno such things.

Primorge: Thanks for the compliment :-)  I call it Hybrid 3d rendering cuz I want it to look more graphic/hand drawn but it is reality a 3d render.  I have a process to get the style of final image I want.  I absolutely cringe when I look back at some of my old works and wish people did not judge me based on that, lol.  If folks would like to see what I have evolved my art style too, let me know, I'll post a ... uh... 'tame' picture here.

Davo

I mostly like how transmapped hair renders in Firefly. But I'm not going for a super realistic look. I also like the super-glossy, shampoo ad look you can get with dynamic hair in Firefly.

Dynamic hair doesn't look good at all in Superfly. Perhaps it's impossible to render it properly; if it's really going to do reflections, shadows, etc. on each strand, I could see that being too much. Does DS handle it better? I've seen some nice hair renders at DAZ's site, but I have no idea if they're strand hair or if they're rendered with iray or what.

randym77 posted at 5:09 PM Sat, 5 February 2022 - #4434439

I mostly like how transmapped hair renders in Firefly. But I'm not going for a super realistic look. I also like the super-glossy, shampoo ad look you can get with dynamic hair in Firefly.

Dynamic hair doesn't look good at all in Superfly. Perhaps it's impossible to render it properly; if it's really going to do reflections, shadows, etc. on each strand, I could see that being too much. Does DS handle it better? I've seen some nice hair renders at DAZ's site, but I have no idea if they're strand hair or if they're rendered with iray or what.

I will say that the Iray preview is pretty nice. So far I'm using DS to load, clothe, and pose Genesis and export as static props for Poser. Works like a charm. Plus can touch up in mudbox with beauty pass morphs. I'm still trying to get the interface situated more to my liking. It's really not that much different than Poser but more crowded feeling. Here's Genesis as RE: The Village's Lady Dimitrescu exported to Poser. Preview, no shadows or specular, just maps. No shaders. Still needs some fixing in Mudbox, expression touch ups and some work on the teeth, and some minor dress fixes (which must have been done in Marvelous Designer as it has thickness and all tris, it's obviously a straight game rip (hide back facing polys in Poser is helpful), a level of subdivision for the figure mesh (it's at base res) and shaders of course but it's a workable solution for me. There's just too many nice content options to ignore and it's easy to get it into Poser with a bit of post modeling and shader elbow grease...

Here's the export settings I've been using for the lot. No groups as I can separate everything in blender if I need to. I'm thinking a series of Game Character things in Poser, or at least setting up the models for that. Still hammering out the workflow in the midst of other strictly Poser figure stuff... sorry for the OT but it's the only way to answer the question...

randym77 posted at 5:09 PM Sat, 5 February 2022 - #4434439

I mostly like how transmapped hair renders in Firefly. But I'm not going for a super realistic look. I also like the super-glossy, shampoo ad look you can get with dynamic hair in Firefly.

Dynamic hair doesn't look good at all in Superfly. Perhaps it's impossible to render it properly; if it's really going to do reflections, shadows, etc. on each strand, I could see that being too much. Does DS handle it better? I've seen some nice hair renders at DAZ's site, but I have no idea if they're strand hair or if they're rendered with iray or what.

And you can get light shining through it from behind.

I like a super glossy look.

I haven't been able to find or make a shader for Superfly that does this. It ends up really dark and flat, or really glow in the dark bright. It also takes forever to render compared to Firefly.

Anime Girl La Femme has some example toon shaders; OpenGL, Firefly, and Superfly flavors IIRC. Still haven't gotten around to anything but looking at the morphs in that pack. Bagginsbill had some cel shading toon formulas for Firefly, eventually expanded into something called LLAnime IIRC. There was Semidieu's Toon Shaders for Firefly. The toon options built into Poser aren't bad, especially with the expanded OpenGL options. It's not Miyazaki but with enough post pretty damn good for toon stuff. I personally adore Poser's preview renderer. Hopefully more work expanding those options in the future. Poser is excellent and very practical for stylized comics work and NPR type stuff.

I'd go as far to say, IMO, Poser hands down has some of the prettiest preview options for wires and such. And this is compared to high end softwares.

I really like the Anime Girl OpenGL shaders. I don't care for the Superly shaders, though I could see them fitting a certain style.

Is there a way to get an outline in a preview render? I seem to recall you posting some preview renders with outlines. Toon edge width and silhouette outline width don't seem to do anything. Firefly's toon outline puts too many lines on the render.

randym77 posted at 8:13 PM Sat, 5 February 2022 - #4434454

primorge posted at 3:23 PM Sat, 5 February 2022 - #4434428

Anime Girl La Femme has some example toon shaders; OpenGL, Firefly, and Superfly flavors IIRC. Still haven't gotten around to anything but looking at the morphs in that pack. Bagginsbill had some cel shading toon formulas for Firefly, eventually expanded into something called LLAnime IIRC. There was Semidieu's Toon Shaders for Firefly. The toon options built into Poser aren't bad, especially with the expanded OpenGL options. It's not Miyazaki but with enough post pretty damn good for toon stuff. I personally adore Poser's preview renderer. Hopefully more work expanding those options in the future. Poser is excellent and very practical for stylized comics work and NPR type stuff.

I'd go as far to say, IMO, Poser hands down has some of the prettiest preview options for wires and such. And this is compared to high end softwares.

I really like the Anime Girl OpenGL shaders. I don't care for the Superly shaders, though I could see them fitting a certain style.

Is there a way to get an outline in a preview render? I seem to recall you posting some preview renders with outlines. Toon edge width and silhouette outline width don't seem to do anything. Firefly's toon outline puts too many lines on the render.

Here's a quick image of that same model with comic preview, just moved around the lights a bit. And also the settings....

Hey, thanks. I like how it looks.

Yes, I could do it in Photoshop, but I kind of like not having to.

👍

...less is more with textures and materials using Poser's toon options. Render passes, selectively hiding and unhinding passes and post compositing are helpful too. Transparency, or lack thereof, has workarounds.

I think the thread is veering wildly into OT territory. BTW randym77... had no idea that forum posts support animated gif now. Good to know. Makes demoing morphs and pose controllers much easier.

Here's the style I like.  Basically 2 render passes in firefly with different settings and then put together in a paint program. This scene took less than a minute to render at 200dpi.  I want the graphic novel look and feel, so I need the ink lines on edges of most of the items.  I absolutely don't want any photo-real and hope that in future releases of poser, the graphic art aspect is taken into consideration, it's really what Poser was originally intended to do, to be a "posing" tool for artists. 

This week on 'Dr Geep; Candid Confessionals from a Serial Killer Support Group'...

Also featuring a harrowing guest appearance by Mapps!

Dr Geep "What Shenanigans have those 2 been up to again?! A soldering Iron?!... oh brother."

:D

Just kidding Davo... and Mapps :)

I was just thinking that that style reminds me of Dr Geep. Haven't seen him around lately.

I like it!

LoL primorge, you should be my writer.  Ah yessa, Dr Geep!  I remember him :-)