It seems there are a lot of improvements that are still waiting to be made but it has been some time since the last update-are you still worth it?

Seems a wee bit early to suggest that. It would be nice to hear what they are currently working on though. There are some big things that I would like to see that might take a while to implement (e.g. realtime cycles preview). It's not always practical to do new releases every month (or more, as they had been doing).

If I'm not wrong, they seem to focus on Cycles2's evolution and bug corrections plus on a real support for Unimesh, at least that was the feeling I've had during a session last year.

does not really answer the question- i am not american

Seems a wee bit early to suggest that. It would be nice to hear what they are currently working on though. There are some big things that I would like to see that might take a while to implement (e.g. realtime cycles preview). It's not always practical to do new releases every month (or more, as they had been doing).

this software has not worked well for over twenty years-fix it

Don't feed the troll.....

Answer is no. Next.

I'm no 'Insider', but I've used Poser since freebie P3 off magazine cover-disk, albeit with a sad gap in middle due computer woes and family priorities...

IMHO, Smith Micro left a grim legacy of neglected 'ToDos', some of which have already been addressed. These were the 'urgent' and/or 'low-hanging' tasks.

There's a lot of exasperating UI issues, mostly 'list handling', as modern models may have many more materials etc than fit on a 'single page'.

And, I suspect, the 'trash collection' system needs a serious overhaul. A 'gas gauge' for resource usage would be nice...

Snag is stuff like the Python version change and Cycles' bugs are rooted deep, deep into Poser's code. They'll take a lot of fixing, mostly to prevent breaking anything else.

If 'Unimesh' is seen as the way forward, it would seem to up-end 'traditional' Poser figure rigging. Which, incidentally, I never figured beyond 'BoxMan', and that on a good day.

Corollary, I suppose, is that current I/O for rigged figures is 'on hold' until 'Unimesh' .

Upside, I must hope 'Unimesh' will ease import of other formats such as XPS and PMX, both props and rigged figures...

firecircle posted at 2:17 PM Sun, 1 May 2022 - #4437984

does not really answer the question- i am not american

And no: Poser has functioned rather correctly during the last 20 years. Bugs leave along programs, bacause we're all humans (and thus not perfect), because among the humans that are part of the process, there are the financiers, always ready to save money (and thus sometimes lowering the final quality)

On the contrary: this partially answers the question: abandoned? no, just focusing on one or two things at  time instead of focusing on ntf's. Your feeling of abandoned-ware may come from the fact that since CuriousLab, only SM did a huge step long time ago, and than stopped. But since Bondware took over, and since their first Poser12 official version (12.0.276, on nov 7, 2020), not less than 21 versions appeared

Don't feed the troll.....

firecircle posted at 2:17 PM Sun, 1 May 2022 - #4437984

does not really answer the question- i am not american

I'm not american as well (sorry I don't the relation with the title of this thread), I'm not paid by Bondware, nor am I paid by daz, the program of which is... "100% non-bugged", as are most other programs in this domain...

And no: Poser has functioned rather correctly during the last 20 years. Bugs leave along programs, bacause we're all humans (and thus not perfect), because among the humans that are part of the process, there are the financiers, always ready to save money (and thus sometimes lowering the final quality)

On the contrary: this partially answers the question: abandoned? no, just focusing on one or two things at  time instead of focusing on ntf's. Your feeling of abandoned-ware may come from the fact that since CuriousLab, only SM did a huge step long time ago, and than stopped. But since Bondware took over, and since their first Poser12 official version (12.0.276, on nov 7, 2020), not less than 21 versions appeared

I'm no 'Insider', but I've used Poser since freebie P3 off magazine cover-disk, albeit with a sad gap in middle due computer woes and family priorities...

IMHO, Smith Micro left a grim legacy of neglected 'ToDos', some of which have already been addressed. These were the 'urgent' and/or 'low-hanging' tasks.

There's a lot of exasperating UI issues, mostly 'list handling', as modern models may have many more materials etc than fit on a 'single page'.

And, I suspect, the 'trash collection' system needs a serious overhaul. A 'gas gauge' for resource usage would be nice...

Snag is stuff like the Python version change and Cycles' bugs are rooted deep, deep into Poser's code. They'll take a lot of fixing, mostly to prevent breaking anything else.

If 'Unimesh' is seen as the way forward, it would seem to up-end 'traditional' Poser figure rigging. Which, incidentally, I never figured beyond 'BoxMan', and that on a good day.

Corollary, I suppose, is that current I/O for rigged figures is 'on hold' until 'Unimesh' .

Upside, I must hope 'Unimesh' will ease import of other formats such as XPS and PMX, both props and rigged figures...

Answer is no. Next.

Seems a wee bit early to suggest that. It would be nice to hear what they are currently working on though. There are some big things that I would like to see that might take a while to implement (e.g. realtime cycles preview). It's not always practical to do new releases every month (or more, as they had been doing).

If I'm not wrong, they seem to focus on Cycles2's evolution and bug corrections plus on a real support for Unimesh, at least that was the feeling I've had during a session last year.

What specific bugs are those that are presenting problems for you and have tickets been submitted to bring them to the attention of the technical staff?  Admittingly, I think we are overdue for another update but rewriting code does take time, especially if you want to maintain the integrity of the existing program without breaking sub-modules or overhauling the entire program to the point that all the old content won't work anymore.  The hostile overtone of this thread will only get it shut down with no meaningful outcome at the end.

Finally, progress!!  Which version of Python did you write your code?  You are aware that since the last update, Bondware had elected to update Poser to Python 3, abandoning the Python 2 platform.  It did break many related scripts, frustrating many users in the process.  IMO, a necessary evil if you are concerned about cybersecurity.  Yes, it sucks but I've gotten over it.  

BTW, my written statement is my opinion and I do not apologize for it.  Everybody has gotten off the wrong foot in this thread, so let's dispense with the unpleasantries and try to work together as a community to address these problems.

Finally, progress!!  Which version of Python did you write your code?  You are aware that since the last update, Bondware had elected to update Poser to Python 3, abandoning the Python 2 platform.  It did break many related scripts, frustrating many users in the process.  IMO, a necessary evil if you are concerned about cybersecurity.  Yes, it sucks but I've gotten over it.  

BTW, my written statement is my opinion and I do not apologize for it.  Everybody has gotten off the wrong foot in this thread, so let's dispense with the unpleasantries and try to work together as a community to address these problems.

Apologise is spelled with an 's' if you follow the British spelling. Us uncooth, rude and childish USians spell it with a 'z'.

If you don't care for the community, why are you here? Serious question--this is a forum, after all.

Apologise is spelled with an 's' if you follow the British spelling. Us uncooth, rude and childish USians spell it with a 'z'.

If you don't care for the community, why are you here? Serious question--this is a forum, after all.

firecircle posted at 5:14 PM Mon, 2 May 2022 - #4438041

as for community i do not care i just want the question answered and apoligise is spelt with an s

Abandonware is a product, typically software, ignored by its owner and manufacturer, and for which no official support is available.[1]

Within an intellectual rights contextual background, abandonware is a software (or hardware) sub-case of the general concept of orphan works. Museums and various organizations dedicated to preserving this software continue to provide legal access.

-Ignored by its owner: no. Bondware is currently hard at work on updates, and it can be purchased in the store.
-No official support is available: no. Support can be reached from the Posersoftware site easily.
-Orphan works: no. Legal access is still provided by the company's store, easily and readily.

Thus: the answer is no. Next.

Also kinda funny to see someone call a honest reply "childish", and then nag people about spelling.

Also²: if you don't care about the community, why should the community care about you and your questions?

I was, I am and I'm pretty sure that I will remain in love with your responses...

And now it's Engberg Humperdinck    a man without love,    as i send you to sleep after the love'n ,,, you know it's to good to be true i can't take my eyes off of you..... he he.

I have no use of Superslow, err, Superfly, because to achieve true photorealism, you first have to have photorealistic figures.

I have no use for a new Python engine that renders all the previous Python scripts I need for my figure creation useless.

I have no use for any of the new native figures supplied with Poser 12. Their rigging is too complicated while still lacking, their sculpting is too unrealistic and their mesh layout not nearly as versatile as those of the "other makers" figures.

I have no use for unimesh rigging, as the current rigging tools already allow me 100% control over any figure's shape and the way it bends.

It's just another "The PROS have it, so we must have it, too" shtick.

*

In short, the only two "features" that would motivate me to buy Poser 12 would be:

1) Real instancing OR way better multiple transparency handling.

(So we can have real forrests and landscapes without any performance lack)

2) Full "one click compatibility" with the "other makers figures" OR a new SET of native Poser figures that finally live up to Poser's true potential:

(Derived from photogrammetry scans, morph friendly, highly detailed mesh topology, robust and easy to modify, realistic rigging)

*

So, basically, I don't really care if Poser 12 is becoming abandonware or not, as right now there is no incentive for me to buy it anyway.

And I'm pretty sure this will be true for Poser 13, 14, etc., too.

*

I bought Poser 11 TWICE because of the messed up license transfer, and apart of the phoning home situation, I'm pretty happy with it.

I'll stick with it for the foreseeable future, and already took precautions to be able to continue using it should Bondware ever decide to "pull the plug" on it.

I LOVE Poser and I'd happily pay $500 for an IMPROVED Poser 11 that is even faster, can instancing, can load the "other makers" figures / files or comes with a truly realistic set of native figures.

But as I said, there's nothing in Poser 12 now that would make me want to buy it.

Superslow, indeed

Well, this was 18,3 seconds on my NITRO-5 Acer Laptop with a Core I7, 32GB of Ram and a GeForce GTX:

The real Fresnel glass shader was slowing it down a bit, though.

There's of course real reflections used for the car paint and the chrome.

I could probably fine tune it a bit more, but this was just a five minute setup.

And here is how my preview looks, btw:

As I spend so much time staring at the preview when setting up a scene, a "nice" looking preview is very important for me. For example I created my own chrome shader that would still look good in preview, yet renders fairly realistically.

(I'm not after all out 100% photorealism at all. I try to emulate a certain "Poser" style, that befits its strenghts and abilities. If I wanted photorealism, I would use one of the Pro apps.)

*

My point is: Right now, Superfly isn't ready yet. It usually takes a new Poser feature several iterations to be actually useable.

Firefly itself was patently horrible when it was introduced in Poser 5. I think it wasn't until Poser 7 or 8 that I permanently switched for good)

Besides, there are no photorealistic figure meshes available for Poser. Even those from "the brand that must not be mentioned" are severly lacking and would not warrant the trials and tribulations of using a photorealisic render engine with them. Face morphs have gotten surprising convincing, but once you try full body renders, well.

(Provided Superfly was a photorealistic engine in the first place. It probably is in Blender, but in its current Poser state it can't even do displacement maps.)

Not to mention that Superfly's preview looks horrible, which, as I said, is very important to me.

*

So, if by Poser 15 or 16 or so Superfly can do all the things I can now do with Firefly, if there's a really nice preview, if it's also A LOT faster than my own Firefly shaders and if by then I have a computer that can make full use of its advantages, AND If I'm actually still willing to spend the time needed to learn a new render engine from the ground up, I might re-consider.

But otherwise I still stick with my opinion:

Give me some real improvemts like instancing or way faster multiple trans map handling, some "one-click" loading of the "evil-empire" stuff or some really remarkable new set of Poser figures, and I'll happily throw my $$$ at you.

But Poser 12 as it is? Thanks, but no thanks.

:-)

I don't have a gallery, so allow me one more render to "show off":  ;-)

Some better settings, some background, one figure. Still under 1min. (Admitedly, adding hair would probably double render time, even though I developed some really fast rendering hair shaders)

Still room to improve, but this is pretty much the level of realism I'm comfortable with. I'd really like for Poser to remember its roots, and provide the hobbyist users a simple and reliable tool to express themselves in 3D.

And not trying to emulate the myriad of "Pro" apps out there.

I'm confused at the turn this conversation took now. If a program's new features don't entice you, no problem at all, you individually are free to continue with the older version - this has nothing to do with the company or a program supposedly going "abandonware". Just because new versions aren't useful to you specifically, it doesn't mean that those versions don't exist.

Me, if we had been stuck with Firefly all these years, I'd have jumped ship to another program long ago, personally. (Still, nothing to do with the topic at hand.)

My personal view is that the updates that have been made have been good, the improvement in Superfly times in particular.   It would seem to make sense that you work on the relatively easy stuff first which would mean that a the slowdown in the role out of updates would be expected as you go deeper into the program changes.

love the reply by the user who proudly states they use octane as a render engine-ironic (:

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 8:05 AM Wed, 4 May 2022 - #4438108

I was, I am and I'm pretty sure that I will remain in love with your responses...

Thank you and by the way much respect

firecircle posted at 5:14 PM Mon, 2 May 2022 - #4438041

as for community i do not care i just want the question answered and apoligise is spelt with an s

Definition of Abandonware:

Abandonware is a product, typically software, ignored by its owner and manufacturer, and for which no official support is available.[1]

Within an intellectual rights contextual background, abandonware is a software (or hardware) sub-case of the general concept of orphan works. Museums and various organizations dedicated to preserving this software continue to provide legal access.

-Ignored by its owner: no. Bondware is currently hard at work on updates, and it can be purchased in the store.
-No official support is available: no. Support can be reached from the Posersoftware site easily.
-Orphan works: no. Legal access is still provided by the company's store, easily and readily.

Thus: the answer is no. Next.

Also kinda funny to see someone call a honest reply "childish", and then nag people about spelling.

Also²: if you don't care about the community, why should the community care about you and your questions?

ChromeStar posted at 11:54 AM Sun, 1 May 2022 - #4437980

Seems a wee bit early to suggest that. It would be nice to hear what they are currently working on though. There are some big things that I would like to see that might take a while to implement (e.g. realtime cycles preview). It's not always practical to do new releases every month (or more, as they had been doing).

they have had enough time

Says who????

By definition, Poser is clearly not abandoned ware, for Bondware still cares for Poser. How well, would be a different subject.
It is also a fact, that Poser's fan base have shrunk.
This can be told from the new messages coming in here in the forum by a day. I remember times, when there were al least ten more with every new day. Now there is maybe one or two new posts.
The amount of products in the store have decreased as well. 
Poser lost popularity.
It is now behind DAZ and Reallusion.
Bondware has to come up with something really special to get Poser out of its corner and put it back in its pole position, where it used to be before its shameful Poser 11 release.
My guess is, that they are silent, because they are thinking about concepts.

Lately, I've submitted a but report to the support, something non Python programmers won't deal with. But I've ask if they had any hint for the next release, and here is what they responded:

"Bugs are prioritized by exposure and user risk. Some bugs can't be fixed due to potentially breaking existing scenes. So until we've had time to review all that, I have no idea when."

Nevertrumper posted at 2:48 AM Sat, 14 May 2022 - #4438596

By definition, Poser is clearly not abandoned ware, for Bondware still cares for Poser. How well, would be a different subject.
It is also a fact, that Poser's fan base have shrunk.
This can be told from the new messages coming in here in the forum by a day. I remember times, when there were al least ten more with every new day. Now there is maybe one or two new posts.
The amount of products in the store have decreased as well. 
Poser lost popularity.
It is now behind DAZ and Reallusion.
Bondware has to come up with something really special to get Poser out of its corner and put it back in its pole position, where it used to be before its shameful Poser 11 release.
My guess is, that they are silent, because they are thinking about concepts.

OTOH, during the Poser 9 and 10 era, the Poser forum mods would allow Daz vendors and DS only users to disrupt every Poser single thread that was discussing Poser native figures.  If you called those vendors out on it, the mods would come after Poser users rather than tell the DS folks to go to their own forums (that they never posted to).  The same thing was happening at the RDNA forums.

The forums got so toxic that a lot of people left.

That being said, if you don't do pin up art, there isn't a lot here anymore.  Then there is the All Caucasians, All the Time issue.  Not to mention the whole Logan's Run vibe as far as characters.  And no children outside of Baby Luna as an added "bonus".

Yet another issue is the fact that the Poser base isn't united behind one figure.  Because Poser is a toolbox, we can use any figure we want - we have the ability to upgrade any legacy figure that strikes our fancy, and bring it up to Poser 12 standards (weightmapping, control surfaces, Superfly materials, etc).

This is why the top threads are about Aiko 3, Antonia, and others - for the end user, it is great.  For vendors, it is THE reason to leave Poser for DS. 

If what you want isn't sold here, you won't be shopping here, nor will you be posting to the forums.  Which is why I don't post all that much here anymore (along with four years of elder care).

What is important to remember is that in Poser (and DS) - content is divorced from base meshes, so use what you want.

If vendors don't want to make content for figures I use, I'll just convert the content I already own to the figure I do want to use; the money that could have gone to those vendors goes to a vendor that makes what I want to buy.  I don't care if it is Poser native or not - if it isn't (and almost 3/4ths of what I buy isn't), it doesn't take much work to make it Poser native (Thanks again to Wilddial and Ken1171).

Poser is an incredibly powerful program to use, if the user can be bothered to do so.

I've accumulated ample store points for P12, but I've held off upgrading my P/p11 for several reasons.

First, I would have to use Cycles from the start. As yet, I cannot 'grok' more than the very basics, and the recent Cycles version change is as potent as the Python switch. I need a 'Cycles 3.0 for Dummies' book, something that is cross-platform, not just a Blender text.

Second, I want robust rigged-FBX import, as 'take it for granted' as OBJ+MTL, but boned. With a few, honourable exceptions that manage to 'play nice' --Kudos, guys !!--  my understanding is that the rest will stay 'pot luck' until Unimesh arrives to simplify rigging. Meanwhile, there's Mixamo, exporting as FBX version 6.1 (~2016)...

Third, rather than up-grade either of  my twin, now-ageing graphics cards, I realised it was cheaper and more future-resistant to build a network-render 'Box', send jobs to that. Sadly, a lot of P12's super features need super GPUs...

I do sigh when I see the latest 'photo-real' DS figures but, truth be told, I lack both the skill and artistry to make use of them. In fact, I reckon I 'topped out' at VAGM4. Later props and clothing are a different matter, as I'll happily 'rip' such to OBJ+MTL, port to Poser. FWIW, DS' procrustean UI gives me a prompt migraine... 

IMHO, reliable import of  XNA/Lara's rigged XPS, X & ASCII and MMD's rigged PMX would trump Daz' Series 5~6~7~8 figures for most Poser users...

I've accumulated ample store points for P12, but I've held off upgrading my P/p11 for several reasons.

First, I would have to use Cycles from the start. As yet, I cannot 'grok' more than the very basics, and the recent Cycles version change is as potent as the Python switch. I need a 'Cycles 3.0 for Dummies' book, something that is cross-platform, not just a Blender text.

Firefly is still there, or PhysicalSurface if you want to use Superfly without using Cycles.

If you are interested enough to learn it, Cycles is fundamentally simpler than PoserSurface, which is a crazy hack of multiple overlapping and contradictory approaches. If you learned PoserSurface, you can absolutely learn Cycles. The PhysicalSurface root node is even easier, and since you can freely use both PhysicalSurface and Cycles in the same scene, it's easy to use PhysicalSurface where appropriate while taking advantage of Cycles shaders. That permits you to learn Cycles gradually.

Second, I want robust rigged-FBX import, as 'take it for granted' as OBJ+MTL, but boned. With a few, honourable exceptions that manage to 'play nice' --Kudos, guys !!--  my understanding is that the rest will stay 'pot luck' until Unimesh arrives to simplify rigging. Meanwhile, there's Mixamo, exporting as FBX version 6.1 (~2016)...

Third, rather than up-grade either of  my twin, now-ageing graphics cards, I realised it was cheaper and more future-resistant to build a network-render 'Box', send jobs to that. Sadly, a lot of P12's super features need super GPUs...

Superfly rendering is faster with newer GPUs but they aren't required.

I do sigh when I see the latest 'photo-real' DS figures but, truth be told, I lack both the skill and artistry to make use of them. In fact, I reckon I 'topped out' at VAGM4. Later props and clothing are a different matter, as I'll happily 'rip' such to OBJ+MTL, port to Poser. FWIW, DS' procrustean UI gives me a prompt migraine... 

IMHO, reliable import of  XNA/Lara's rigged XPS, X & ASCII and MMD's rigged PMX would trump Daz' Series 5~6~7~8 figures for most Poser users...

The Bondware team has made a lot of improvements that only animators such as myself would notice, and I for one greatly appreciate it.  You can now re-time an entire scene in one action for one. Poser12 is more stable then ever before, the frustration of crash on save is practically non-existent...Thank goodness... Where in the past I would divide my scene into short clips I now confidently animate and render thousands of frames in a single sequence. Not to mention that animations that took weeks to render before now take only a day or two(if that) and at higher quality settings. Y'all can piss and moan all you want, but as a creator who actually gives Poser12 a workout day in/day out 24-7 I have to express my gratitude to the Bondware team for their exceptional efforts. They're taking a neglected turd and polishing it into a glimmering gemstone I'm proud to have in my workflow.

Now if they could address that broken Queue manager(looking for '.bom' files) and out of memory errors in the next update I'd be a really happy camper....LOL

Since car renders seem to be a thing... @19 seconds

Me thinks Y-Phil was being a bit facetious above...  #MeToo

Could you post something similar to this and post a time.  The resolution is a bit small but, I'd like to see something a bit more realistic. The first car posted is the only one that even comes close to what I want in an image.   Thanks

This took 63 second using different software.  I'm debating on trying Poser and so far not much has interested me.

Sorry, but the reflection values on that Fury are way over the top. The body looks like tinted chrome, not actually covered in paint.

Same with the windows and the chrome itself.

If Y-Phil and you like that look, that's perfectly fine with me.

But it's nowhere "realistic", less alone photorealitic.

IMHO.

*

My point is that the results I see so far from Poser 12 "Superfly" renders in no way warrant the added effort in using yet another render engine.

Nor the use of resources to implement and improve that render engine, while having to rely on sub-par figures otherwise due to the lack of a proper inhouse figure development team.

(Just as a reminder: This program is called "Poser" because its primary task is to allow the casual / hobbyist user to depict a realistic posed human body in his artwork without having to learn how to model, map, texture and rig.

Everything else is a "nice to have", but not an absolute necessity.

With the loss of Victoria, we lost this ability. And so far we haven't been able to gain it back. IMHO)

*

If we already had a set of proper realistif figures and Superfly could crank out truly photorealistic renders without any sacrifice, well, yes, why not. The more the merrier.

But again, we don't even have any photorealistic figures or props in the first place.

And a prop with dimensional inaccuracies (Almost all car models available for Poser were "eyeballed" without the use of proper blueprints) and figures with anatomical problems (Hardly any available figure for Poser is based on photographic references or even better actual 3D scans of real people) looks just ridiculous if rendered in a photorealistic (or near-photorealistic) manner.

IMHO.

*

Anyway, I tried to go a bit more realistic this time, but still maintained my 3 light setup:

35 seconds using Poser 11 and Firefly. Used IDL this time. Note the displacement grass which Superfly isn't capeable of.

Y-Phil, I neither wanted to attack you nor single you out. I was just replying to FoulPet's comment, wanting to see somthing more realistic. Sorry!

There are many "poor" Firefly shaders around that either are nowhere realistic nor are optimized in any way. Many take eons to render without any visible benefit, so I spent a lot of time in the past creating my own.

So, yes, your test proves that Superfly can render a given shader faster than Firefly.

But was it a "good" Firefly shader in the first place? Was this shader optimized for speed in the first place, or was it just hundreds of nodes cobbled together with most of them not doing anything?

And most important: What do we want from Poser? What does the average Poser buyer want from Poser?

Truly photorealistic shaders, but no access to truly photorealistic figures and props?

Or might he or she be better of with less "Gee-Whiz" tech, but better figures and more realistic props instead?

Merchants and customers left because Vicky 5 didn't natively work in Poser anymore. (Ok, we had a few workarounds at first, but they were just that, workarounds)

And the replacements were all pretty poor, sorry to be so blunt.

And instead of using the little time and money available to supply us with better figures, the owners of Poser just sloppily implemented another shader engine!

As long as we don't have those figures, I see any other  new "Feature" (aside from bug-fixes), as a disservice to Poser.

When I bought my Poser 4 in 2000 (I still have the box), I did so not because of the render engine. I did it because Posette looked so great!

"Wow, I can have full control over such a great figure? And there's a whole family of them. And animals, too?

TAKE MY MONEY, Curios Labs!

And when I opened Poser 4 for the first time, I was hooked!"

*

When I opened Poser 11 for the first time and was greeted by L'Femme, I couldn't eradicate her fast enough from my runtime.

"BE GONE, FIEND! I rather render box primitives for the rest of my life than succumb to your abominable shape!"

Sorry, I know this hurts the feelings of some, but if any of those Vicky replacements we went through in the last decade (Yes, it's already 11 years now since Vicky's gone) were any good, why is still 99% of the merchadise sold here for G8?

Why did all the talented artists leave in droves? And took their customers with them?

Because Poser doesn't inspire them anymore, that's why.

And that is not because the render engine needed an upgrade.

It's like having a car with a broken engine. And instead of fixing the engine, you re-upholster the seats and give it a new paintjob.

And then you wonder why noone wants to buy your car.

*

Anyway, I will unsubscribe from this thread now.

We had this discussion since the day DAZ released V5, and I actually warned this community about that exactly this would happen the moment I noticed that Vicky 4 had some "Studio-only" features.

Maybe Poser 12 isn't abandonware, yet.

But to me, it sure feels like it already is.

IMHO

Bye Felicia.

As I mentioned before I animate...

After 40 years of punching clocks and walking someone else' chalk, I'm retired now and it affords me the opportunity to finally do whatever whimsical thing  I want to do, without over-site or directorial/dictatorial pressure. Whenever i was tasked to do a  few short 3-10 second animations(150 frames@15fps) I'd be given a 2-3 week time period to get the jobs done, then came the re-do's , the changes the director wanted made, so on average about a month was involved in the process. Then it was off to other team members for polishing, dynamics, materials&render. It was a tough row to hoe, but hey, its a living.

Most of my experience is with Animation Master/ Max or Maya with final renders done with in Iray/Vray... I've used other software but those were the mainstay. Whatever the contractors flavor of the day was. At first I struggled to present content that was up to muster, so many variables, not only with figure animation but there were often interactions between multiple figures and props.... Then in the mid 90's i started 'cheating'...  I discovered that i could recreate the basics of the scene I was working on in Poser, do the basic animation/export .bvh- -finish n other software in less than half the time... I enjoyed many hours with family and friends when otherwise I'd have my nose to the grindstone trying to eek out a living....Unbeknownst to my employers.... Shhhhh don't tell nobody... Poser was/still is looked down upon by the industry as sub-par and I'd have probably been shunned/fired for using it....

Fast/forward to  more recently....

I often sit down at my workstation without the foggiest idea what I'm going to create, assemble a scene on the fly and let the animation 'evolve' from there...Pure 'imaginering' in its simplest form, I just let-er rip without limitation. I create thousands of animated and rendered frames in just a few days(@30fps), animate during the day and render at night while I sleep.  I seldom polish my animations to final product these days before posting(WIP), but for free they're not half bad. I enjoy every  moment of my 'work' and live life to the fullest (devil may care, I don't). I post over at 'Rotica these days (Yeah its porn...ick....sue me) I get favorable reviews for the most part,,, great community over there...

 Poser allows me do that....

Y-Phil, I neither wanted to attack you nor single you out. I was just replying to FoulPet's comment, wanting to see somthing more realistic. Sorry!

There are many "poor" Firefly shaders around that either are nowhere realistic nor are optimized in any way. Many take eons to render without any visible benefit, so I spent a lot of time in the past creating my own.

So, yes, your test proves that Superfly can render a given shader faster than Firefly.

But was it a "good" Firefly shader in the first place? Was this shader optimized for speed in the first place, or was it just hundreds of nodes cobbled together with most of them not doing anything?

And most important: What do we want from Poser? What does the average Poser buyer want from Poser?

Truly photorealistic shaders, but no access to truly photorealistic figures and props?

Or might he or she be better of with less "Gee-Whiz" tech, but better figures and more realistic props instead?

Merchants and customers left because Vicky 5 didn't natively work in Poser anymore. (Ok, we had a few workarounds at first, but they were just that, workarounds)

And the replacements were all pretty poor, sorry to be so blunt.

And instead of using the little time and money available to supply us with better figures, the owners of Poser just sloppily implemented another shader engine!

As long as we don't have those figures, I see any other  new "Feature" (aside from bug-fixes), as a disservice to Poser.

When I bought my Poser 4 in 2000 (I still have the box), I did so not because of the render engine. I did it because Posette looked so great!

"Wow, I can have full control over such a great figure? And there's a whole family of them. And animals, too?

TAKE MY MONEY, Curios Labs!

And when I opened Poser 4 for the first time, I was hooked!"

*

When I opened Poser 11 for the first time and was greeted by L'Femme, I couldn't eradicate her fast enough from my runtime.

"BE GONE, FIEND! I rather render box primitives for the rest of my life than succumb to your abominable shape!"

Sorry, I know this hurts the feelings of some, but if any of those Vicky replacements we went through in the last decade (Yes, it's already 11 years now since Vicky's gone) were any good, why is still 99% of the merchadise sold here for G8?

Why did all the talented artists leave in droves? And took their customers with them?

Because Poser doesn't inspire them anymore, that's why.

And that is not because the render engine needed an upgrade.

It's like having a car with a broken engine. And instead of fixing the engine, you re-upholster the seats and give it a new paintjob.

And then you wonder why noone wants to buy your car.

*

Anyway, I will unsubscribe from this thread now.

We had this discussion since the day DAZ released V5, and I actually warned this community about that exactly this would happen the moment I noticed that Vicky 4 had some "Studio-only" features.

Maybe Poser 12 isn't abandonware, yet.

But to me, it sure feels like it already is.

IMHO