☹️

I can understand why you made this decision, but man, what a bummer. I really like Orion's looks. Dusk is okay, but so bulked up even with morphs. LH is okay, but he has some issues that I suspect come from his starting as a female mesh.

Thanks for letting us know.

I completely understand your stance. Your a very talented person. Thanks for replying!

Drat. I was hoping to get my hands on him, lol. Liky randym77 said, the other new weightmapped males all have their issues, and Orion looked like he would avoid them. Sad news, but I guess I'll live.

Wot? Is he not getting released soon? I love the look of Orian. I think he looks amazing. But i can't find any threads saying what is happening now?

Estherau, AmbientShade posted a comment (on the previous page of this thread) saying he's not planning to release his figures for Poser.

OMG! That is really disappointing. They are such amazing figures. I was in love with them. I couldn't find that post when i looked.

Crud. Was really looking forward to this one. Guess I go back to trying to re-rig M4

DreaminGirl posted at 8:54AM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391280

Crud. Was really looking forward to this one. Guess I go back to trying to re-rig M4

I'm no good at rigging so I'm hoping Karina comes through with a M4 version of Sasha-16.

Sad to hear this, but you are right. There is LF and LH, there is PE, there is Bella, there are reincarnations of Dawn and Dusk on the horizon.

FVerbaas posted at 8:12AM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391291

Sad to hear this, but you are right. There is LF and LH, there is PE, there is Bella, there are reincarnations of Dawn and Dusk on the horizon.

Exactly! It's not the end of the world. I think L'Homme is quite a nice figure but he's got so little support. I'm working on getting my head around Poser more and more and I do have a project for him in the works but not until I understand Poser, shaders and the Material Room more. I even have clothing but I hear that rigging is a nightmare so .... slowly very slowly! LOL

randym77 posted at 5:15PM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391282

DreaminGirl posted at 8:54AM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391280

Crud. Was really looking forward to this one. Guess I go back to trying to re-rig M4

I'm no good at rigging so I'm hoping Karina comes through with a M4 version of Sasha-16.

Same. Meanwhile, it doesn't hurt to try to learn rigging

Start with things that don't bend, good way to get comfortable with the joint editor. That is, if you mean rigging from scratch and not transferring a donor rig.

I could do some custom morph work for LH, to reshape him similar to Orion. Will have to see how well the rigging holds up. I also still have the Travis FBM for Paul that I did a couple years back but never finalized due to issues with the mesh and UVs. I could transfer him to LH without too much hassle I think. Again, would have to test rigging with that. But I've seen some extreme FBMs for LF that seem to hold up fine with the rigging so maybe the same is true for LH.

@Randym - do you have Axel for Dusk? He's a well crafted figure and reduces the default bulkiness of Dusk pretty well. You might try mixing him with some other Dusk morphs.

AmbientShade posted at 2:08PM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391306

@Randym - do you have Axel for Dusk? He's a well crafted figure and reduces the default bulkiness of Dusk pretty well. You might try mixing him with some other Dusk morphs.

I do. Worth it for the hair alone!

He's so young he looks underage, but you're right, mixing him with other morphs works pretty well.

AmbientShade posted at 2:20PM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391306

I could do some custom morph work for LH, to reshape him similar to Orion. Will have to see how well the rigging holds up. I also still have the Travis FBM for Paul that I did a couple years back but never finalized due to issues with the mesh and UVs. I could transfer him to LH without too much hassle I think. Again, would have to test rigging with that. But I've seen some extreme FBMs for LF that seem to hold up fine with the rigging so maybe the same is true for LH.

@Randym - do you have Axel for Dusk? He's a well crafted figure and reduces the default bulkiness of Dusk pretty well. You might try mixing him with some other Dusk morphs.

Did you see the new release in the store for L'Homme, "SimpleDetailsLH" Rigging is fine on L'Homme but he's got some bending issues that this little affordable pack fixes up!

RAMWolff posted at 7:32PM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391316

Did you see the new release in the store for L'Homme, "SimpleDetailsLH" Rigging is fine on L'Homme but he's got some bending issues that this little affordable pack fixes up!

Ohhh, I just picked up the SimpleDetails for LF the other day, so it's good to see he didn't take long to come out with a set for LH as well.

Yes, very impressed with this published artists work. Genius when it comes to fixing all these rotation issues!

Looks like smoothing JCMs. The price is right.

RAMWolff posted at 9:42PM Tue, 09 June 2020 - #4391342

Yes, very impressed with this published artists work. Genius when it comes to fixing all these rotation issues!

Yes, I have all his others for the Gen 3 and Gen 4 characters, which I bought back when they came out, so I'm glad he now had a couple of new characters he was able to focus his good work on.

ambient - why did you decide not to finish Orian? He looked supurb!

estherau posted at 8:20AM Wed, 10 June 2020 - #4391351

ambient - why did you decide not to finish Orian? He looked supurb!

He stated why in his latest post.

Wow, it has been a while since I had looked in, because I didn't want to keep building excitement for something that would be a long wait. I have been working to learn some 3d manipulating to try to start releasing some new morphs for existing characters, I was really excited for how original and well designed your characters have seemed. Really looking to get my hands on them, anyway good luck on future endeavors, I am sure there is marketability in the direction that you are taking them. I have all my money currently invested in Poser, Daz Studio, and the Unity Engine, so I won't currently be taking on any other directions until I can get some products on the market and start building a library.

So, scratch that last bit from last year. Guess I was in a mood. Or something stupid.

Orion is back on.

Been working on him pretty extensively the last several weeks.

Stress test on his joints.

More to follow.

👏👏👏👏👏

Great news! He looks amazing.

Such good news.  Keep us posted!

Haven't paid much attention to this, I generally try to reserve any commentary for finished figures. Usually pats on the back are best served for goodies in hand... some seem to get a narcissistic rush from kudos for actual sight unseen. And basically nada freebies or actual examples of models. Seems to be a thing in the Poserverse.

All that being said I think from what I've seen the topology looks pretty good, not that the initial imagery of the figure that you unveiled all those years ago as ExistentialDisorder didn't look good... the latest seems more... minimalistic or refined, definitely different. I can definitely see a careful consideration of edgeflow redirection etc...

I'm curious if you'd humor me with some screen caps of mouth interior parts topology and the eyes too?... it's a personal fetish(?) of mine about those aspects of a Poser figure's construction... Just curious.

Best of luck with this.

Always thought he was a good figure!! This is excellent news!

Never mind, read the first post, I think my dream man is here finally.  So the genital set morphs down to a "bulge" so that's cool.  How does this translate when making clothing for him though?  I guess if the penis isn't rigged with too many bones when shrunk down to a nub like that may not play against clothing creation.  

I do worry about support for him with L'Homme, Dusk 2.0 and even M4 (still getting SOME support).  

He looks yummy!  Love the layout as his face looks like a dream to morph, as does his body.  I take it he's set up for Unimesh natively or is it Poser Native skinning? 

Ah as I've been oggling this new figure I see that most of the posts here are from back in 2019 so I guess this is shelved.  

Ah as I've been oggling this new figure I see that most of the posts here are from back in 2019 so I guess this is shelved.  

Ok! I will try not to be rude. But this project seems to be just to get allot of attention over almost a Decade now. With no real results, I do not recall the names of the first two that were at the time of V3 ( I think , not sure ) and never gotten published. Was it back in 2014 of before ? Well these are the fallowing but I do not believe that they ever going to be Public just like the Previous projects. Sure one can get a load of attention but honestly if it is just a tease it could cause to block other good projects that really end up for public . It probably already happen , as I recall that there were other ideas in the past and people were shouting that the Orions are soon coming and others projects are not welcome !

So your mood seems rather to be based on a lack of attention but not really a plan to get this or the last project done.

Thanks all for the enthusiasm.

primorge posted at 2:19 PM Tue, 21 June 2022 - #4440160

Haven't paid much attention to this, I generally try to reserve any commentary for finished figures. Usually pats on the back are best served for goodies in hand... some seem to get a narcissistic rush from kudos for actual sight unseen. And basically nada freebies or actual examples of models. Seems to be a thing in the Poserverse.

All that being said I think from what I've seen the topology looks pretty good, not that the initial imagery of the figure that you unveiled all those years ago as ExistentialDisorder didn't look good... the latest seems more... minimalistic or refined, definitely different. I can definitely see a careful consideration of edgeflow redirection etc...

I'm curious if you'd humor me with some screen caps of mouth interior parts topology and the eyes too?... it's a personal fetish(?) of mine about those aspects of a Poser figure's construction... Just curious.

Best of luck with this.

The body is all one contiguous mesh with the exception of nails, eyes, lashes and tear wells. Even the teeth, gums and tongue are all modeled into the inner mouth pocket and the throat is closed. Same with eye sockets. There's no holes. So he could be morphed into a blob if you wanted. And he's 33K face count, so plenty of mesh to be detailed without being too resource heavy. I do want to reshape the gums a bit as they're a bit too horse shoe and even but it hasn't been a priority just yet and won't take very long but it's on the to-do list. I didn't want to make them separate pieces because that adds more geometry than necessary for the overall figure and if you want to make missing teeth its just a matter of morphing them flat into the gums.

You must have a photographic memory. I'll have to dig back through my old runtimes and see if I still have that original figure. It wasn't long after I first started on it that I had a complete HD failure and lost 90% of everything. I was able to recover some of it but I don't know if that figure was part of it or not because I seem to recall having to start over from scratch. And it was not too long after school so I still had a long road of anatomy to learn and practice.

Even with the most recent images in this thread are outdated next to where he's at now. The geometry has been refined more since those wire frame images from last year.

Thanks for the wires, looks good. And yes, I've been told I have a very selectively peculiar memory for minutiae lol. In particular with art. Anyway, from a personal perspective I wish the teeth were separate from the gums (much prefer separate teeth and nails) strictly for extreme morphing and scaling... but there's workaround methods... just a bit more tedious and tricky, especially with uv seams, stretching, and 3d painting workflow. Might be something to consider?

The fact that the mesh is "watertight" is fantastic, for generally the reason you stated. That aspect is something that should be standardized with Poser figures really.

Thanks for taking the time, interest is piqued.

...you might also consider a UDIM mapping. It's quickly replacing overlapping and is much more easy for painting. Just another 2 cents. Overlapping can easily be converted to UDIM in various softwares, even Blender now.

Cascade777 posted at 6:03 PM Tue, 21 June 2022 - #4440169

Ok! I will try not to be rude. But this project seems to be just to get allot of attention over almost a Decade now. With no real results, I do not recall the names of the first two that were at the time of V3 ( I think , not sure ) and never gotten published. Was it back in 2014 of before ? Well these are the fallowing but I do not believe that they ever going to be Public just like the Previous projects. Sure one can get a load of attention but honestly if it is just a tease it could cause to block other good projects that really end up for public . It probably already happen , as I recall that there were other ideas in the past and people were shouting that the Orions are soon coming and others projects are not welcome !

So your mood seems rather to be based on a lack of attention but not really a plan to get this or the last project done.

I can understand that reaction. It's to be expected and I probably deserve at least some of it. But that's not the case.

For one thing I never started this project to try competing with anyone else's projects or to divert attention from them. I created it because I wanted a set of figures that no one else seemed to be inclined to create. I could just take an existing figure and modify it to whatever I wanted, and I've done that with some of them to an extent, but for all that trouble I might as well just build m own, so that's what I did. Poser is big enough there is room for plenty of people to create their own figures.

Building a figure like this is a ton of work. It's not like building a figure for a game engine or even blender which are usually mostly quad, simplistic meshes built for a single character and purpose. There's a lot more involved in designing the geometry and rigging for a Poser figure so that it can handle everything that's expected of it. The mesh and rigging has to go through countless iterations in order to achieve a semi-believable versatile figure that doesn't rely on 1,000+ JCMs in order to pose properly. Most figures are built by a team of people who are each experienced in their area (one for modeling, one for rigging, one for texture work, etc.), and even then it can still take years to complete. This project has been just me, 99% of the time. I have had a couple folks help me here and there, mostly with questions on how to do this or that, critiques on what looks right and what doesn't, a couple gave me some useful tools and resources (which are greatly appreciated) but beyond that it's just been me. Along the way I've had to refine my knowledge of anatomy and geometric design and try to apply it to my figure design. I've had to work out ways of doing certain things and dig through countless forum archives looking for information when I couldn't find anyone to answer it directly. And all that along side juggling a full time job and various other life events.

To give you an idea of just how much work has gone into developing Orion, here's a screencap of his current runtime: 

Each of those is a different iteration of him. And each folder has just as many. And that's just the current archive from the last 2 years. It's nearly 10gb. I had to move the older archive to an external drive because it was taking up too much space and they were versions of him that are so far removed from the current version it wasn't necessary to keep them close by but I didn't want to just toss them either.

Add to that Poser's rigging tools and random glitches can be more than a little frustrating at times. Then there's the community that can be... more than critical... of any figure that anyone creates, to put it mildly, or simply ignores it because it doesn't live up to whatever set of arbitrary requirements a handful of people throw at it (two Poser figures sitting in the store right now, have been for at lease a year, no one has bothered making any content for, or even uses them in renders that I've seen). So that can be a bit discouraging to those of us who do want to create new figures. And I didn't want to just add another generic 3D doll to the pile. It needs to be appealing and modern enough for people to want to use, otherwise what's the point? Well that takes design and planning. Add to that the curse of my perfectionist's disease.

When I shelved this project last year, La Femme and L'Homme were new in the store and everyone was clamoring for them. I was also working full time and didn't have a lot of time to devote to it and didn't want to keep people waiting on something that I didn't have an end date in sight for. So I thought at the time it would be better to focus my limited time on building add-ons for them instead, which I did some of but even that was hindered due to work and other life issues. Then my PC took a nose-dive and that took a while for me to rebuild and get running again. This is the 2nd full PC rebuild I've had to do since this project first started (this last time was the motherboard, which I had to replace twice because the first one was defective and only lasted about 3 or 4 months. Thankfully I didn't lose any of my files).

So no, my intention has never been just attention seeking. I don't see the point of that. This thread is intended to show a sort of journey of creating a figure for Poser and what is possible, along with garnering enough interest for it to be worth doing. Poser is capable of more than people think it is in regards to figure development, even with it's glitches and quirks.

Ooh this is very very exciting news!!  I am so looking forward to seeing this finished.  I was sad when i thought it had been abandoned.  Happy now.

Totally cool info here.  Keep going.  Keep titillating us and building the excitement. 

He looks like a marvellous figure. I'm so glad you have decided to recommence work on this.

Yay! I'm in the same boat, sad when it seemed like it was abandoned and very happy now! Looking forward to seeing him take his final form!

Always great to see people working on new figures. It's a fascinating challenge. Having several deja vus here reading about your developing experience. I will follow this thread with interest.

AmbientShade posted at 8:23 PM Tue, 21 June 2022 - #4440173

Cascade777 posted at 6:03 PM Tue, 21 June 2022 - #4440169

Ok! I will try not to be rude. But this project seems to be just to get allot of attention over almost a Decade now. With no real results, I do not recall the names of the first two that were at the time of V3 ( I think , not sure ) and never gotten published. Was it back in 2014 of before ? Well these are the fallowing but I do not believe that they ever going to be Public just like the Previous projects. Sure one can get a load of attention but honestly if it is just a tease it could cause to block other good projects that really end up for public . It probably already happen , as I recall that there were other ideas in the past and people were shouting that the Orions are soon coming and others projects are not welcome !

So your mood seems rather to be based on a lack of attention but not really a plan to get this or the last project done.

I can understand that reaction. It's to be expected and I probably deserve at least some of it. But that's not the case.

For one thing I never started this project to try competing with anyone else's projects or to divert attention from them. I created it because I wanted a set of figures that no one else seemed to be inclined to create. I could just take an existing figure and modify it to whatever I wanted, and I've done that with some of them to an extent, but for all that trouble I might as well just build m own, so that's what I did. Poser is big enough there is room for plenty of people to create their own figures.

Building a figure like this is a ton of work. It's not like building a figure for a game engine or even blender which are usually mostly quad, simplistic meshes built for a single character and purpose. There's a lot more involved in designing the geometry and rigging for a Poser figure so that it can handle everything that's expected of it. The mesh and rigging has to go through countless iterations in order to achieve a semi-believable versatile figure that doesn't rely on 1,000+ JCMs in order to pose properly. Most figures are built by a team of people who are each experienced in their area (one for modeling, one for rigging, one for texture work, etc.), and even then it can still take years to complete. This project has been just me, 99% of the time. I have had a couple folks help me here and there, mostly with questions on how to do this or that, critiques on what looks right and what doesn't, a couple gave me some useful tools and resources (which are greatly appreciated) but beyond that it's just been me. Along the way I've had to refine my knowledge of anatomy and geometric design and try to apply it to my figure design. I've had to work out ways of doing certain things and dig through countless forum archives looking for information when I couldn't find anyone to answer it directly. And all that along side juggling a full time job and various other life events.

To give you an idea of just how much work has gone into developing Orion, here's a screencap of his current runtime: 

Each of those is a different iteration of him. And each folder has just as many. And that's just the current archive from the last 2 years. It's nearly 10gb. I had to move the older archive to an external drive because it was taking up too much space and they were versions of him that are so far removed from the current version it wasn't necessary to keep them close by but I didn't want to just toss them either.

Add to that Poser's rigging tools and random glitches can be more than a little frustrating at times. Then there's the community that can be... more than critical... of any figure that anyone creates, to put it mildly, or simply ignores it because it doesn't live up to whatever set of arbitrary requirements a handful of people throw at it (two Poser figures sitting in the store right now, have been for at lease a year, no one has bothered making any content for, or even uses them in renders that I've seen). So that can be a bit discouraging to those of us who do want to create new figures. And I didn't want to just add another generic 3D doll to the pile. It needs to be appealing and modern enough for people to want to use, otherwise what's the point? Well that takes design and planning. Add to that the curse of my perfectionist's disease.

When I shelved this project last year, La Femme and L'Homme were new in the store and everyone was clamoring for them. I was also working full time and didn't have a lot of time to devote to it and didn't want to keep people waiting on something that I didn't have an end date in sight for. So I thought at the time it would be better to focus my limited time on building add-ons for them instead, which I did some of but even that was hindered due to work and other life issues. Then my PC took a nose-dive and that took a while for me to rebuild and get running again. This is the 2nd full PC rebuild I've had to do since this project first started (this last time was the motherboard, which I had to replace twice because the first one was defective and only lasted about 3 or 4 months. Thankfully I didn't lose any of my files).

Also, several people have confused Orion with an older project/figure named Brad. I personally don't know anything about Brad and had nothing to do with its creation or creators. 

So no, my intention has never been just attention seeking. I don't see the point of that. This thread is intended to show a sort of journey of creating a figure for Poser and what is possible, along with garnering enough interest for it to be worth doing. Poser is capable of more than people think it is in regards to figure development, even with it's glitches and quirks.

Poser creators always make the same mistake with there dolls, try taking a chunk on how Victoria got big, especially if you are alone trying to get a success with a new Project. "Evolution" could of been a great Doll having great success, but it stops just because there is no update that could wake up the interests of users, the woow effect gets lost !

So from what I am reading your doll might have a chance for some success using the method of imperfection, the price will be the same today as it will be tomorrow and you might get on the winner's side. 

Sorry for the Konfusion about your creations I should of been more detailed ! I was not talking about Brad I rather meant "Lucas" but still do not recall the name of your female project. ok it was not back in 2014 it was back in 2012 . these also looked promising but sadly just got forgotten!

One solution to random yahoos might be a Poser Figure Creation subforum. Not just humanoid figures but anything that is rigged in Poser; be it humanoid, clothing, animal, or rigged prop. Of course it would be best if it were moderated by a dedicated few knowledgeable about such things and filled with useful links and such.

Poser figure creation is one of those topics where the information is scattered across years upon years of random posts and a few (very few) resources. There's alot of fundamental techniques, processes, and pitfalls that someone who is interested might only stumble across by chance. I can think of more than a few techniques that I've only seen mentioned maybe once or twice over the span of decades. Deletable anchor bones would be one, eye rigging methodology would be another, ghost bones etc.

The knowledge, as time goes on, is becoming harder and harder to come by and increasingly seems to be resting in the hands of a very few who might not be inclined to share "industry" methods because of various reasons, not the least of which might be a threat to a sort of monopoly in an increasingly smaller pool. And no one is getting any younger here. It seems to be a problem that exists in both Poser and DS.

Hell it might even contain the fires that seem to break out over such things time and again...

I think it could only be beneficial to Poser's health to have such a resource. But... pie in the sky I guess.

How awesome to see you creating again Shane!

The huge advantage is polygons do not age! ;)

From experience I know that if you been out of the workflow for awhile, one tends to have to re-invent your own wheel basically, it’s relearning your old routine and the nitty gritty all over again.

And so I honestly believe continuing on a previous project is an even bigger feat then starting it for the first time.

I know one thing though…it definitely can be done, if there is still some old love lingering, the spark can be enlightened again!

So in my perspective, it’s an accomplishment to start-up again.

I wish you lots of fun, luck and fortune with Orion.

I shall not ask if Venus is out of the attic too…..oh oops now I kinda did…lol ;)

I tried to place a comment on the 

Lucas - original male figure project for PP2012

But sadly it is closed. After taking some time going through this large thread that sure almost seemed to be a game changer at the time, I must say Lucas looked way better then Orion ( Personal opinion )  So why have you stopped ? It could sure of been the head start to clear a good path for Orion and further great creations of yours. But all seems to end unfinished with allot of excitements, Still a big respect for your work even if shots are rather restricted. Right now it just seems to be repetitive, two threads, almost the same with big ideas and promising figures even the comment structure seems to be repetitive. Would be really nice if this Orion project is not just a repetition of Lucas :) 

Cascade777 posted at 10:31 AM Wed, 22 June 2022 - #4440208

I tried to place a comment on the 

Lucas - original male figure project for PP2012

But sadly it is closed. After taking some time going through this large thread that sure almost seemed to be a game changer at the time, I must say Lucas looked way better then Orion ( Personal opinion )  So why have you stopped ? It could sure of been the head start to clear a good path for Orion and further great creations of yours. But all seems to end unfinished with allot of excitements, Still a big respect for your work even if shots are rather restricted. Right now it just seems to be repetitive, two threads, almost the same with big ideas and promising figures even the comment structure seems to be repetitive. Would be really nice if this Orion project is not just a repetition of Lucas :) 

If you go back and read the first post in this thread (which appears at the top of every page) I explained most of that.

The thread change was due to the name change, from Lucas to Orion. It's still the same figure project, but a while back I decided to incorporate a female version based on the same mesh, along with several character morphs, thanks to the evolution of Poser's rigging tools making that possible. Lucas is one of those characters, and a couple pages back you can see images of Venus, the female version. They are built from the same mesh, something that was not possible to do (at least not as easily) with the original mesh I first started building.

I hadn't realized it's been 10 years. Sorry it's taken so long.

I can understand the reasoning or thought process behind putting out a mediocre figure and allowing it to evolve over time based on content and feedback from other creators but looking at the track record of most indie project figures that generally doesn't happen often. Most are forgotten within months, often abandoned by their creators due to lack of interest from the community. I've tried to avoid that happening here by making Orion as versatile as possible and more unique than most of what is already available. I'm also well aware that I'll most likely be the only one supporting him for a while. That's fine, I have a bunch of content I've built that's just waiting for final rigging. 

I have to say I'm pretty excited to see more of Orion (and Venus for that matter).  This is great ... and I see a lot of interest.  A very good thing for Poser!!

LOL ! This explains everything, sending my apologies for the rudeness. Yes it seems you are working already over a decade on a Project, could go into history as it over last many members and creators. In the other hand lets see this little conversation on the positive side as a motivating kick. Critique is often more help full  then slimy compliments from member that just cant wait getting hands on all this work . Realizing when a creator asks for help they come in crowds mostly with no Knowledge just to get hand on a copy of the mesh. mostly the creator is left alone with a creation no matter how complicated it might get . 

There is a good chance that Orion will get support as it will beat the I'homme morph by any means ( that model is a pure chaos ) and just existing because there in no other standalone male release. You as Creator just need to give little support by releasing small upgrades on regular base this trick keeps it alive awakening big interest on users. So my guess is if your model is having good smooth bending I'homme would be past very fast. Creators want to earn for there work and if your model is promising they sure will go for it. Remember, Mavka jumped out of nowhere ending up as a hysterical runn even that it was just basic unperfect but cute. The longer the creator gives little support the longer it will last, the longer it lasts the indispensable it will be in the Poser runtime. So you should go ahead and beat that Homme disaster :)

@Primorge: Yes, he's UDIM'd. I highly dislike stacked UVs. Such a pain to work with, but a necessary evil years ago.

One of his older mesh versions did have the traditonal "dentures" model for the mouth, with individually modeled teeth. The amount of additional geometry it added was insane, especially for something that's rarely seen, and they weren't even that detailed. I'm sure it would be a small task for someone to create individual teeth and parent or rig them if they really wanted to.

WOW, that's quite a UDIM layout there.