It's interesting that Blackhearted has a photo texture resource available on the market here that states that derivatives can be used in commercial and freebie endeavors. I purchased it and have used it a tiny bit. Quite handy. A shame that he never followed up with any more sets...

Years ago there was a site that offered that sort of reference resources, but I don't recall the name of the site, nor if it's still available.

@primorge

Oh I see. If the textures are a derivative of, say, ref from 3D.SK... only commercial redistribution?

Well that finds a flaw with my logic, yes.

Yes, I purchase me the non commercial version from XYZ textures at first, to learn proper character texturing. For the commercial one, I read carefull the TOS and it clearly forbid to redistribute the textures as freebie projects.  3D.SK also commercial only. 

But there is an amazing tutorial out for Blender to create Human textures from scratch. I have it and can only recomend it. In case some people are interested , It is from CGcookie . Blendermarket. 

DCArt posted at 10:37 AM Sun, 26 June 2022 - #4440395

primorge posted at 10:21 AM Sun, 26 June 2022 - #4440391

It's interesting that Blackhearted has a photo texture resource available on the market here that states that derivatives can be used in commercial and freebie endeavors. I purchased it and have used it a tiny bit. Quite handy. A shame that he never followed up with any more sets...

I think in that case he shot his own photos.

Looking through 3D.SK's content licenses it states that their Hobbyist license does not permit derivatives redistributed as freebies, apparently no matter how altered. Commercial License doesn't address freebies at all as far as I can see.

I've considered purchasing credits over there but it's been on the back burner as I already have subscriptions to Photoshop, ZBrush, Mudbox, 3DCoat, and a few other things. I haven't even scraped the surface with 3DCoat but see it as supporting something that could be very useful, plus a gesture of support for the Ukraine.

Anyway, apologies for the drift.

Would be nice if there were a more open ended resource for the figure though.

@primorge

Oh I see. If the textures are a derivative of, say, ref from 3D.SK... only commercial redistribution?

Well that finds a flaw with my logic, yes.

Yes, I purchase me the non commercial version from XYZ textures at first, to learn proper character texturing. For the commercial one, I read carefull the TOS and it clearly forbid to redistribute the textures as freebie projects.  3D.SK also commercial only. 

But there is an amazing tutorial out for Blender to create Human textures from scratch. I have it and can only recomend it. In case some people are interested , It is from CGcookie . Blendermarket. 

Again

Apologies to AmbientShade for the derail.

My understanding was that in the "off" state the laddie bits would be smoothed out like in the wireframes in the first post of this threat. Shouldn't that fix that problem?

Hard to tell from the image alone. If in the 'off' state it truly becomes a smooth surface without folds or backfacing polygons it would probably not have the problem. 

FVerbaas posted at 11:30 AM Sun, 26 June 2022 - #4440401

odf posted at 6:42 PM Sat, 25 June 2022 - #4440367

My understanding was that in the "off" state the laddie bits would be smoothed out like in the wireframes in the first post of this threat. Shouldn't that fix that problem?

Hard to tell from the image alone. If in the 'off' state it truly becomes a smooth surface without folds or backfacing polygons it would probably not have the problem. 

I'm setting up a new wireframe image, because I've revised the mesh several times since that last image was done and I'll show the differences.

Bet you never expected such an intense level of schlong scrutiny :D

Strangely enough, Schlong Scrutiny also happens to be the name of my future glam rock revival band. :-) Seriously though, a bulge morph that plays well with Marvelous Designer would definitely be high up on my wish list.

Could we see some more renders of Orion, please? I'm literally going bonkers waiting for Dawn 2.0's loooooooooong overdue debut and need me some Orion images to calm my impatience down......

Could we see some more renders of Orion, please? I'm literally going bonkers waiting for Dawn 2.0's loooooooooong overdue debut and need me some Orion images to calm my impatience down......

Could we see some more renders of Orion, please? I'm literally going bonkers waiting for Dawn 2.0's loooooooooong overdue debut and need me some Orion images to calm my impatience down......

Yes, I'm working on fixing some things and will post some renders and an update later tonight.

Ooooooh goodie, goodie!  Looking forward to it!

Well it's not exactly a render, but I've been refining some joints. And I discovered my recording software will make gifs, which means I don't have to faf around with photoshop's timeline and a million printscreens. Yay!

If the forum will let me upload a gif... Here's his elbow bend, 100% weightmapped and base resolution:

It stops at -85, because that is where I'll put in a JCM to create the compression morph that happens when the forearm compresses into the bicep in a crunch, like putting his hands on his chest. Weight maps can't really do that so morphs are necessary unless you like the look of intersecting geometry. Personally I don't.

That looks fantastic!

Not only fantastic but gorgeous.  WOW, that's super smooth.  The elbow keeps it shape.  SO many do not so morphs have to be added to get that back.  Your very thoughtful in how your doing all this work.  Truly good works.  I'm assuming it's test of patience at times! I know the few times I've weight mapped from start to finish I know my nerves were a bit shot!  LOL 

WOW!!  That looks phenomenal!! 

Thanks. 🙂

@RAMWorks: Weightmapping takes a lot of patience, and a well designed mesh. It's a lot like sculpting but you're doing it in directions of how the joint rotates. I spend a lot of time pushing and pulling, adding and subtracting individual points at very low settings on the magnitude dial. And it can't be stressed enough just how important the base mesh is. It's a science of its own and in a lot of ways its own art form. So if you have a good mesh design that works with you instead of against you then it makes the whole process a lot easier. That's why I have so many iterations of the base mesh because I get to an area that isn't behaving like it should so I have to figure out a way to rework the geometry in that area so that it will deform properly while retaining anatomy. But no mesh is perfect, there's always ways to improve all of them.

I'll post some hip and knee bends shortly.

You would be the person I'd purchase a course for rigging and weight mapping from, in a heart beat, esp if you are doing this solely in Poser!  

Thanks Ram. I might try putting something like that together at some point if there's enough interest in it. But I'm no rigging expert. It's a lot of trial and error, get an idea and test things out to see if it works. I just use a lot of reference and keep fine-tuning until things look right. Every figure will be different, but the basics are the same.

That is indeed very impressive. I've tried to weight-map an elbow joint not too long ago, so I have a bit of an idea how difficult that is.

generic trim fit guy okay we are no where near  the posing stage?

it is an interesting very blurry line/area between the the average guy and "fit" human special forces heroic figure

Weight mapped thigh bend, no JCMs:

The backward bend will probably get a jcm to push the butt up towards the lower back. Or I'll use the buttocks bones that are there but currently do nothing.

And a weightmapped knee bend, again no jcm:

I'll put in a squash jcm for the back of the thigh/calf for squatting poses that rest on the toes because that's another type of pose that weight maps can't accomplish on their own. 

@Jim:

Not sure what you mean. He has a bunch of poses. Most are test poses I've made during the rigging process. I do a lot of that because it's about the best way to find flaws in the rigging, especially if they're poses created from a previous version of the rig. I've also done several body morphs I'm working on transferring to his current mesh, but getting the base rigging final is the most important step so that it can be matched to the various body shapes. If I try doing that before the base rigging is final then it screws a bunch of stuff up. My intention is to post a bunch of stuff this weekend so just stay tuned.

🙂

odf posted at 6:28 PM Fri, 8 July 2022 - #4440926

That is indeed very impressive. I've tried to weight-map an elbow joint not too long ago, so I have a bit of an idea how difficult that is.

Elbows and knees aren't too difficult. Hips, shoulders and wrists are a beast, especially shoulders. Too many different rotations. Shoulders always require some jcms in order to look correct. You might get away with not having them in the normal down position but not in the down and up position. Then there's the down/back, and down/forward that require jcms as well, if you want it to really look natural.

The thigh and knee bends are looking wonderful. 

Elbows and knees aren't too difficult. Hips, shoulders and wrists are a beast, especially shoulders.

I know. Shoulders are the devil.

BTW good to hear you dislike intersecting meshes. Marvelous Designer hates them, so getting pants to behave on kneeling or squatting figures can be quite the adventure.

That knee and elbow bending looks amazing. I'm getting really excited about this figure.

The leg bend is amazing.  The knee geom stays in place as the knee is bent.  Usually that area's poly's gets stretched out.   WOW!  NICE! 

Looking good from here.  I love the bending.

AmbientShade posted at 9:49 PM Fri, 8 July 2022 - #4440941

Elbows and knees aren't too difficult. Hips, shoulders and wrists are a beast, especially shoulders.

I know. Shoulders are the devil.

odf posted at 2:41 AM Sat, 9 July 2022 - #4440948

AmbientShade posted at 9:49 PM Fri, 8 July 2022 - #4440941

Elbows and knees aren't too difficult. Hips, shoulders and wrists are a beast, especially shoulders.

I know. Shoulders are the devil.

The groin area is even worse. The most difficult at all. 

@Jim:

Not sure what you mean. He has a bunch of poses. Most are test poses I've made during the rigging process. I do a lot of that because it's about the best way to find flaws in the rigging, especially if they're poses created from a previous version of the rig. I've also done several body morphs I'm working on transferring to his current mesh, but getting the base rigging final is the most important step so that it can be matched to the various body shapes. If I try doing that before the base rigging is final then it screws a bunch of stuff up. My intention is to post a bunch of stuff this weekend so just stay tuned.

🙂

RAMWorks posted at 6:44 PM Sun, 10 July 2022 - #4441018

Nevertrumper posted at 12:57 PM Sun, 10 July 2022 - #4441013

odf posted at 2:41 AM Sat, 9 July 2022 - #4440948

AmbientShade posted at 9:49 PM Fri, 8 July 2022 - #4440941

Elbows and knees aren't too difficult. Hips, shoulders and wrists are a beast, especially shoulders.

I know. Shoulders are the devil.

The groin area is even worse. The most difficult at all. 

Sides of the hips are a PITA ass too when I was making clothing ANYTHING around the shoulders and legs would annoy me to no end.  You get the inner just right, bend to the side or outwards and a whole new set of poke through issues would crop up.  It's a balancing act to say the least!  

Shoulders on the other hand have a nearly 360 degree rotation when you consider all the positions - fully down, fully up, down-back, down-forward, up-back, up-forward, and they have to cooperate with the collar through each of those. So there's really no way to do them properly without the help of jcms on at least a couple of those rotations.

^^No JCM, just weights.

^^JCM would be required on the buttocks to eliminate the crease because bulge maps won't fill it in in that direction.

You get the inner just right, bend to the side or outwards and a whole new set of poke through issues would crop up.

Also, JCMs can be added to clothing whether they're in the figure or not. Because clothing mesh usually doesn't match figure mesh, so you may never get the weights in clothing to be perfect.

(tried to edit the last post with this but it timed out).

Looks good.

And I agree about shoulders being the most difficult. And that's not all, unfortunately multi axis JCMs can also be very hair pulling to set up and more than likely you'll need them for shoulder rotations. The scaling math can get pretty confusing and you'll need ValueOps to set it up. While the relations between a JCM that effects 2 positive rotations is tricky it becomes almost unbelievably confusing setting the scale values for a JCM that works against both a positive and negative rotation. I still haven't managed to get such a JCM to work properly, but I haven't bothered to post a query to the technical forum in hopes of getting Nerd to answer. He's probably the only one who can answer such a problem. My math mojo isn't up to the task it seems... even framing such a question coherently is a bit of work. Fortunately for the simple weightmapping projects I've been playing with I've been able to fix things with weight painting alone. If at all possible try to solve the most you can via the weights, it's much more artist friendly than diving into complex valueOps.

When you get to that point I really recommend finding a maths guru to help you setting these things up.

Best of luck Shane.

Looks like a male/female unimesh to me. ;-)

primorge posted at 8:42 AM Mon, 11 July 2022 - #4441038

Looks good.

And I agree about shoulders being the most difficult. And that's not all, unfortunately multi axis JCMs can also be very hair pulling to set up and more than likely you'll need them for shoulder rotations. The scaling math can get pretty confusing and you'll need ValueOps to set it up. While the relations between a JCM that effects 2 positive rotations is tricky it becomes almost unbelievably confusing setting the scale values for a JCM that works against both a positive and negative rotation. I still haven't managed to get such a JCM to work properly, but I haven't bothered to post a query to the technical forum in hopes of getting Nerd to answer. He's probably the only one who can answer such a problem. My math mojo isn't up to the task it seems... even framing such a question coherently is a bit of work. Fortunately for the simple weightmapping projects I've been playing with I've been able to fix things with weight painting alone. If at all possible try to solve the most you can via the weights, it's much more artist friendly than diving into complex valueOps.

When you get to that point I really recommend finding a maths guru to help you setting these things up.

Best of luck Shane.

Things like valueOps should be a series of button clicks by this point. Set the joints where you need them, dial the morph to 1 and let Poser do the math. Why isn't this a thing?

AmbientShade posted at 5:32 PM Mon, 11 July 2022 - #4441086

primorge posted at 8:42 AM Mon, 11 July 2022 - #4441038

Looks good.

And I agree about shoulders being the most difficult. And that's not all, unfortunately multi axis JCMs can also be very hair pulling to set up and more than likely you'll need them for shoulder rotations. The scaling math can get pretty confusing and you'll need ValueOps to set it up. While the relations between a JCM that effects 2 positive rotations is tricky it becomes almost unbelievably confusing setting the scale values for a JCM that works against both a positive and negative rotation. I still haven't managed to get such a JCM to work properly, but I haven't bothered to post a query to the technical forum in hopes of getting Nerd to answer. He's probably the only one who can answer such a problem. My math mojo isn't up to the task it seems... even framing such a question coherently is a bit of work. Fortunately for the simple weightmapping projects I've been playing with I've been able to fix things with weight painting alone. If at all possible try to solve the most you can via the weights, it's much more artist friendly than diving into complex valueOps.

When you get to that point I really recommend finding a maths guru to help you setting these things up.

Best of luck Shane.

Well I'm pretty much there now but I don't think I'll have to do too much valueOps monstrosities, trying to keep things as simple as possible so its easier to rig clothing for. I think between that other thread you linked in another thread some months back where Chuck explained things and the help of PFE it shouldn't be too much of a nightmare. I do have a calculator.

Things like valueOps should be a series of button clicks by this point. Set the joints where you need them, dial the morph to 1 and let Poser do the math. Why isn't this a thing?

"Set the joints where you need them, dial the morph to 1 and let Poser do the math. Why isn't this a thing?"

Amen to that last bit.

primorge posted at 5:56 PM Mon, 11 July 2022 - #4441088

AmbientShade posted at 5:32 PM Mon, 11 July 2022 - #4441086

primorge posted at 8:42 AM Mon, 11 July 2022 - #4441038

It's a little more complicated than that, even with a scientific calculator. It's the scale factor for 2 value ops, an add and a multiply. If you don't know the proper formula the calculator is of no use. Unfortunately the response in that thread seems to only work with 2 positive rotations triggering a JCM. Very easy. A positive and negative rotation? I haven't been able to solve it, and I've been over it and over it in various permutations.

I think you'd have to reverse deform the morph, so that it's desired shape winds up being a -1.00 on the dial in order to be triggered properly. But not sure that would even work with the math.

But I can't think of a proper joint setup that would have one rotation negative and another positive. Do you have an example?

Wait, I'm thinking 2 different joints, not 2 rotations on the same joint.

Maybe you are to far in your process, but what if you set the thigh joints like real thigh joints?
A real thigh bone is shaped like an L attached to the pelvis bone.
How would it work if you align your thigh joints like That L too, and making the longer bone a stiff child of the shorter bone? 
That means a Y rotation of the thigh parent bone makes the leg bend,
a Z rotation of the thigh parent bone makes the leg move to the side,
a X rotation of the thigh parent bone makes the leg twist.
Just an idea, that someone might be curious to explore.

Nevertrumper posted at 3:03 AM Wed, 13 July 2022 - #4441208

Maybe you are to far in your process, but what if you set the thigh joints like real thigh joints?
A real thigh bone is shaped like an L attached to the pelvis bone.
How would it work if you align your thigh joints like That L too, and making the longer bone a stiff child of the shorter bone? 
That means a Y rotation of the thigh parent bone makes the leg bend,
a Z rotation of the thigh parent bone makes the leg move to the side,
a X rotation of the thigh parent bone makes the leg twist.
Just an idea, that someone might be curious to explore.

Just my opinion... I may be wrong.

yeah, i like IK.  That's why i don't use sasha much