Artists often reflect there unconscious in the art they make you find these in little hidden details, often not even the artist is really aware of it. Still very impressive Render!

More DOF to upset the apple cart. lol

@ hornet3d: I am going to disagree with you about the back of her hair, it is definitely slightly out of focus.  It is also much softer in appearance.  I'm surprised that you did not mention the edge of the table on the right side of the image, also out of focus.  The uniqueness of this render is that it forces you to concentrate on the sharpest region which is the young lady in the center.  Your eye doesn't wander around the scene because, though it is out of focus, it is familiar to everyone, a street scene.  The image works.

I try to set the focus on the face for any image. Once I have the focus set I experiment with fStop to get what I want in focus.

Posing camera

@ hornet3d: I am going to disagree with you about the back of her hair, it is definitely slightly out of focus.  It is also much softer in appearance.  I'm surprised that you did not mention the edge of the table on the right side of the image, also out of focus.  The uniqueness of this render is that it forces you to concentrate on the sharpest region which is the young lady in the center.  Your eye doesn't wander around the scene because, though it is out of focus, it is familiar to everyone, a street scene.  The image works.

Looking a little harder, you are right about the hair, your eyes are probably better than mine, the image certainly works and has tremendous impact.  The DOF has taken a very good render and turned it into a stunning one.

Posing camera

The render is stunning, focusing on the face is a no brainer, it was the precision that impressed me.  Seeing your settings I am amazed that the Fstop is set at 4 as I would have expected a much tighter DOF zone, your placement is spot on but there is a fair amount of depth considering the hands, coffee cup and cigarettes are all relatively sharp.  Given a 25mm focal length with an Fstop of 4 would be much tighter if it was a camera so I guess I need to rethink the correlation between Photography and Poser.

Yeah, it's like the numbers don't match how a real camera lens would work. The only thing I really remember from photography is that the longer the lens I would use the wider the DOF I could get. But then I'd have to be farther away from the subject to frame it right. With Poser you don't have to worry about that. Also because of that you can make the mistake of using a large focal with a small DOF and make everything in the image look like miniatures.

Those are some great tips and that DOF is beautifully measured. Thank you for sharing.

the car from that scene but camera is set up to make it look like a toy.

Yeah, it's like the numbers don't match how a real camera lens would work. The only thing I really remember from photography is that the longer the lens I would use the wider the DOF I could get. But then I'd have to be farther away from the subject to frame it right. With Poser you don't have to worry about that. Also because of that you can make the mistake of using a large focal with a small DOF and make everything in the image look like miniatures.

More DOF to upset the apple cart. lol

My experiments with DOF are rather disappointing at the moment.  More experimentation is needed.

Nevertrumper posted at 12:21 AM Thu, 4 May 2023 - #4464214

ghostship2 posted at 4:47 PM Wed, 3 May 2023 - #4464164

More DOF to upset the apple cart. lol

One out of two renders here, that I actually do like.
Still not convinced of the skin shaders, though. Still lacking from details and looking "dollish". Even from a distance, skin should not look that uniform.
The hair shader is surprisingly good, which is rare, not only in Poser. 
That "Chalice Theronish" character face is without a question just great, but I have never been a fan of V4, which this figure seems to be according to its arm deformations on posing.
The mood and pose is perfectly caught.

I have to agree with Nevertrumper concerning the skin effects, the renders look allot like these China silicone dolls that also are often used as mannequins lately for there store products @ alibaba and such.  Cheaper alternative then a real Model

I mean compare once your Portrait with a real one then you know where work needs to be done so that it does not look like a silicone mannequin

Here a little try to enhance the skin mainly on the eye part, No corrections on the render DOF used, I am not satisfied jet but it is sure possible achieving more realistic Portraits. Optix render in P13 V4

Here a little try to enhance the skin mainly on the eye part, No corrections on the render DOF used, I am not satisfied jet but it is sure possible achieving more realistic Portraits. Optix render in P13 V4

I really don't know what you folks are on about "no skin detail." This is the same character up close

ghostship2 posted at 8:54 AM Thu, 4 May 2023 - #4464249

I really don't know what you folks are on about "no skin detail." This is the same character up close

Quote.
"as I'm not interested in 100% realism as for this, well, I've got a mirror in my bathroom "
Sorry, I missed that part ;-)

@Nevertrumper you got anything to show here since your gallery is empty?

Y-Phil posted at 6:21 AM Thu, 4 May 2023 - #4464233

vopehov506 posted at 5:44 AM Thu, 4 May 2023 - #4464229

Oh I understand and agree with you but... we are light years away from having such quality for the hair, and each skin can be enhanced, given skills in photoshop or equivalents, skills that I'm missing of.

Note that some old Vic4 have some nice details, such as this one (P3D's Lilly). It's an old render that I will have to update (eyes, hair among others)

ghostship2 posted at 8:54 AM Thu, 4 May 2023 - #4464249

I really don't know what you folks are on about "no skin detail." This is the same character up close

When working on a render for a while all seems great, seems that the brain adjusts things but looking at them later on you see all the errors you have done that could be way better.    

@vopehov506 your eye textures are too sharp and precise. Look at the dark ring around the iris. Looks like it was drawn with a protractor. The iris has no bump and look flat

I am actually not Into all this hyper realistic stuff ( Not my style ) , you will never get satisfaction. For such a case better get the old camera out of the drawer and go outside. I Think it is nice using Poser for fantasy stuff and it does not have to be super realistic then you have less to care about and less to fix. Portraits well, Who's that girl ? I am not really understanding what it is really telling looking at a, it might be just a reflection of who we wish to be and not are. 

Trying does not hurt, but that is it. So back to that old fantasy stuff with some action of elves and creatures but not always on how a perfect woman should look like, else these will sure have a hard time keeping up with these 3D cuties in RL.

@vopehov506 your eye textures are too sharp and precise. Look at the dark ring around the iris. Looks like it was drawn with a protractor. The iris has no bump and look flat

you know I have a free eye texture/shader pack here at rendo?

https://www.renderosity.com/users/ghostship2/freestuff

I think the skin is actually superb on all counts but especially when it is worked on, and rendered, in what is essentially and hobbyists program.  Irrespective of the software used, there is always going to be both positive and negative comment on a particular skin as it is a very subjective subject.  What I do know is that the quality of both skin and hair has improved vastly over that last few years so we could be in danger of being super critical here.

There has always been a drive to produce photo realistic renders in both Poser and DS, personally if I wanted photo realistic I would go back to photography, the only reason I don't is because I use Poser to try and invent a sci-fi world and that is impossible to photograph.  My own personal goal is to produce renders that are believable, scenes that could exist and getting anywhere near that goal is hard work someone with the limited skills I have.  I look at wonder at many of the renders here never criticise many because i am fill with wonder generally with the thought of 'if only' for my own art work.

Again, just curious: Are those details bump maps, normal maps or displacements?

bump maps

Well yes eyes can be challenging for sure .... you can pass all your time finding the right setup ... this is more my style ....

Going to throw back a bit on the "nudes" bit.

Nudes don't have to be "in your face." Sometimes what you don't see is more sexy than what you do see.

And look, you can see her feet. LOL

Will put a larger version in my gallery.

bump maps

ok the last ones Closed my model :) else i am not going to be able getting away from these Eyes .. sure is a Impressive thing !

We really do need micro displacement in Poser 12/13 Superfly .... My matts for my upcoming character pack for L'H's Poser default render set up for Firefly using the Poser Root Node I decided to finally use that node.  MADE ALL THE DIFFERENCE.  More detail, more light creating pore effects where they were bumped up with the Bump node.  I really hope Tim, Charles and Co can make that happen in one way or the other.  My question is if they can make their own Poser proprietary node why not then?  Sure, most want to share their settings to other programs but other programs have either the industry standard MPD or like Cycles has it's own proprietary.  If we can't get their node over to Poser then I say build one for Poser!  I mean really.  The finished product is what we buy all this for, the renders and animation aspects at the end of the day!  

If you want photorealism, you need to use a phototrealistic figure.

Given the default state of Poser figures, that takes a lot of work. Not that it can't be done, but so far I haven't seen many people manage to do that.

For my own work, I'm glad that I was able to somewhat give my figures realistic looking bodys and joints and sometimes purge the default look out of them.

But a truly realistic face needs microsculpting. And carefull asymmetry.

Not just a few eyeballed dial spins and perhaps some brushstrokes in ZBrush here and there.

Even the professionals still struggle with it. Probably AI and photogrammetry will be the solution.

3D scans / photogrammetry already completely replaced manual figure sculpting in the scale-modelling hobby.

*

As for now, Superfly probably needs a few more iterations to be both "noob-friendly" as well as actual functional for me.

Just like Firefly did. I think it wasn't until Poser 9 before I became comfortable using it. Mainly because it finally become predictable.

When I combine nodes in Firefly, more often than not the result will be as expected.

Wheras while folllowing this thread, I have the impression that people rather stumble from one "lucky accident" to another. And that any knowledge gained becomes obsolete once the slightest thing changes.

This unpredictability frustated me to no end in the early days of Firefly. But after a lot of trial and errors, I now have a true WYSIWYG pipeline.

My shaders and lights work so well with the OpenGL preview, that the final render basically only adds shadows and displacement to the scene. (And the subsurface scattering)

This way I stay in total control of the result. I basically need no test renders, because if I change the light or a skin tone or whatever, I immediately SEE what is happening.

Everything works WITH the OpenGL preview, not against it.

*

Speaking of  skin shaders, just for comparison sake, this is what Firefly can currently do:

And as long as Superfly can't do that because of its lack of (micro-) displacement, I will follow threads like this with interrest, but don't really bother to using it myself.

Maybe in Poser 14 or 15 Superfly will be matured enough to take over.

@RAMWorks:

AFAIK Cycles has no microdisplacemtnt even in Blender.

What Blender can do is create subdivisions based on the distance from the camera.

So nearer areas of the figure or object get subdivided more, thereby allowing more detail without the enormous overall polygon count that is necessary otherwise.

It is still way more "costly" in terms of computation power needed than the "true" microdisplacement possible with non-PBR render engines.

A powerful GPU might be able to compensate for that, though.

ghostship2 posted at 10:17 AM Thu, 4 May 2023 - #4464260

you know I have a free eye texture/shader pack here at rendo?

https://www.renderosity.com/users/ghostship2/freestuff

ghostship2 posted at 1:42 PM Thu, 4 May 2023 - #4464271

bump maps

Have you already tried normal maps?

vopehov506 posted at 5:44 AM Thu, 4 May 2023 - #4464229

Oh I understand and agree with you but... we are light years away from having such quality for the hair,

Poser is capable of handling fibermesh hair, which is what is used to create a lot of Genesis/DS hair models these days. I've converted a few of them over to Poser myself and they work just fine. But, like normal maps, and HD morphs, most people just don't bother trying.

Fibermesh does require zbrush, but with Blender's geometry nodes and the new hair system, something similar likely could be done with Blender and ported to Poser.

AmbientShade posted at 2:02 PM Fri, 5 May 2023 - #4464358

Y-Phil posted at 6:21 AM Thu, 4 May 2023 - #4464233

vopehov506 posted at 5:44 AM Thu, 4 May 2023 - #4464229

Oh I understand and agree with you but... we are light years away from having such quality for the hair,

Poser is capable of handling fibermesh hair, which is what is used to create a lot of Genesis/DS hair models these days. I've converted a few of them over to Poser myself and they work just fine. But, like normal maps, and HD morphs, most people just don't bother trying.

Fibermesh does require zbrush, but with Blender's geometry nodes and the new hair system, something similar likely could be done with Blender and ported to Poser.

If you would like to challenge content creators to get into the 21st century, I am right there with you. But it's hard to render to impossible expectations  when those expectations would demand skills of content creators from end users.

ETA: as always, there are exceptions to my statement about content creators, generalization does not mean umbrella bashing.

Poser is capable of handling fibermesh hair, which is what is used to create a lot of Genesis/DS hair models these days. I've converted a few of them over to Poser myself and they work just fine.

Good to know

But, like normal maps, and HD morphs, most people just don't bother trying.

Try to avoid any form of generalization: in my case it's not that I don't want, it's the fact that I don't know. I've already transferred assets from ds to Poser, either using the Collada format or FBX, it depends.
I've tried with a friend to get a Genesis8, but the dson fails miserably (tested in Poser11!) and the result isn't convincing but as some people seem to succeed there must be a way.
Fibermesh? I don't know what it is, I don't have zbrush and given the few free time I have, I don't have the time to dive in blender's mysterious world.
But if someone starts to sell such items, I'm ready to buy.

Creators who were capable or are, are meanwhile using there talents in other software, not that they stopped using Poser but there skills ended up being there little secrets. To many disappointments! Sure poser has allot of strength's but somehow it is cursed, marketing is just going the wrong way witch is actually not really motivating for creators. 

That Unimesh single skin that was proposed, would not of been a big problem to create, but the ones with the real skills are not here. Things like this end up to be a closed case or it takes years until they earn there skills doing it, if ever! Like many other things that were talked about, releases of models that never got released after almost decades of promising, witch caused other projects to fail because announced as incoming flagships. But they never appeared and probably never will ! 

I have not made any releases since a Half year, Why? well because there is no motivation, and finding it hard to motivate my self getting back into it again. Now testing a little that new Poser, was hoping that it could bring back that fever of creations, but every day I say, "I might do it tomorrow". Sure got my personal reasons like many others to! Being a creator and a user are two different worlds, actually a creator does not belong in such forums what I at least noted, probably also the main reason why there are not many in here building up conversations. And the few that are well they are not that productive as far as I can tell.

It wasn't meant as bashing or directed at anyone in particular, just a statement to counter the notion that Poser isn't capable. People just don't use the features (largely due to the poor marketing of those features) so the software gets labeled as not being capable of producing anything better.

Yup, I am with you there.

This one is one of my older scenes done again in Poser 13 

@jura11 Nice!

Finally get a chance to have a little more fun. I'm liking the bloom function. I might have been a little excessive with it on this one.