Personally, I find the idea of paying for a dozen models all with their own proprietary accessories galling - especially when the V4 model is already as versatile as I'll ever need. What would be really great is a place where all non-V4 accessories [clothing/hair/props] have been converted from any other proprietary model for easy and convenient use with V4. 

Does anybody have any idea of the logistics and legality of such an idea? I'm more than willing to set the wheels in motion if it's even possible without getting the pants sued off me. Completely on the up-and-up; not willing to do anything shady or unlawful.

If it is already a free item, the concept may be feasible.  But user converted items will still be subject to copyright protection because of the proprietary ownership of the mesh and the included original texture.  Although, older, discontinued content might qualify, EULA, unless modified by original creators, will prevent free distribution of such items.

hborre posted at 6:28 PM Sun, 2 June 2024 - #4485581

If it is already a free item, the concept may be feasible.  But user converted items will still be subject to copyright protection because of the proprietary ownership of the mesh and the included original texture.  Although, older, discontinued content might qualify, EULA, unless modified by original creators, will prevent free distribution of such items.

I had no plans of offering anything for free, but also none of making a profit: for instance, any profit would just go to the designing artist, upon agreement with them. I suppose everything would be predicated upon that: makers agree, business happens / makers uninterested, business doesn't happen. I'm mainly worried about existing proprietary and non-poaching agreements already in place.

I guess my main impetus is to free up all content for easy optional use with V4. That's entirely it.

[...] especially when the V4 model is already as versatile as I'll ever need. [...]

freek2 posted at 5:18 PM Sun, 2 June 2024 - #2987875

[...] especially when the V4 model is already as versatile as I'll ever need. [...]

YIKES !
I get it, some people just prefer a New York back alley hot dog over a healthy 5 star dinner.

Hey... nobody's forcing you to like Vic4. If you don't: no problem, don't comment. Let's keep it courteous.

Thank you, I agree that was uncalled for.

>>> What would be really great is a place where all non-V4 accessories [clothing/hair/props] have been converted from any other proprietary model for easy and convenient use with V4. 

V4 already has pretty much any type of clothing imaginable. But since a good part of it has been made in the Poser 7 and earlier days, it might be better to update what is already there than to convert clothing made for other figures.

By updating I mean updating from legacy falloff zones to weight mapped rigging, and updating FireFly materials to SuperFly. However, the original content creator has to get involved with that because the updates would be derivatives of the original geometry and textures.

V4 already has pretty much any type of clothing imaginable. But since a good part of it has been made in the Poser 7 and earlier days, it might be better to update what is already there than to convert clothing made for other figures.

By updating I mean updating from legacy falloff zones to weight mapped rigging, and updating FireFly materials to SuperFly. However, the original content creator has to get involved with that because the updates would be derivatives of the original geometry and textures.

I pretty much already have anything related to V4 on offering that I'm interested in. However, there is a ton of more stuff created for all the various and sundry DAZ3D Genesis models - way more than was ever offered for V4 - that are very attractive to work with, but are simply off-limits to V4 modelers. It would be great if someone - anyone - took the onus off of end-users to go through the hassle of converting products, through much trial and error, to varying effect.

Honestly, I haven't seen any advances in Genesis or La Femme figures that made me want to go through the hassle of replacing so much content; it's all so incremental and frankly unimpressive in the long run. People swear by these advances, but then I look at their renders and it just seems like the same basic thing. Further, by the time I would have accomplished all of that there would just be another series of 'amazing' new figures to work with - all with their own proprietary gear. It's basically a shell-game to keep soaking app users, is it not? That's why I'm really surprised to be the sole voice out here looking for decent V4 workarounds.

>> It would be great if someone - anyone - took the onus off of end-users to go through the hassle of converting products, through much trial and error, to varying effect.

Dynamic clothing might convert well, but conforming clothing is quite time consuming to convert. Aside from that, the original content creator would have to get involved because converting clothing to V4 would result in redistributing the mesh that is reshaped to V4. There's a thread called "SubjectL I have a question" in the community center forum where someone was wondering why more vendors aren't creating for both DAZ Studio and Poser, and basically it's just about double the work. The genesis shapes have to be converted to fit V4, and the weight mapping and materials are very different in each program.

It's a matter of preference, I suppose, but some G8 and G9 renders simply blow me away with how realistic they can look. While I have a ton of V4 stuff myself, I haven't used her in ages. As popular as she was in her day, I have seen renders of Genesis 8 and 9 that appear near photographic quality. .

It's very frustrating: I only ever learned on the Poser platform years ago because I was totally ignorant of any difference, and had a free version to teach myself on. I loathe the thought of trying to learn an entirely separate platform solely because of this kind of proprietary sabotage. Oh, well, I guess it's solely a sellers' market these days...

I wouldn't exactly call it proprietary sabotage. The same type of thing is true for graphics applications. Or, even office applications, for that matter.

For example, Photoshop files can't be opened by most other graphics programs in their native format, but you CAN export to a more generic format (TIF, TGA, etc) for use in other graphics apps. However, the layer effects don't usually translate well. It's the nature of graphics applications as a whole.

Same is true of office type apps. Word files can't be opened in many other office software suites, but you can export the Word doc to RTF format and it can be opened in another app.

I wouldn't exactly call it proprietary sabotage. The same type of thing is true for graphics applications. Or, even office applications, for that matter.

I see your point, but I still cannot help but think it's all just a blatant cash-grab by DAZ: invent a character and roll out a ton of proprietary content, then when sales slow, invent a new character with all their own proprietary content, and repeat. It's just so exhausting [and expensive] to be shamelessly manipulated by this company time and again.

You would also need proprietary content for any different Poser figure out there. But problem is, not many support them. 

That being said, while I can understand that you prefer V4, and would like to see some of the Genesis content work with her, it might be optimistic to expect content creators to add V4 compatibility to their Genesis clothing options, adding to that that you want it to work in Poser I assume.  As I said, two different rigging methods, different body shapes, and different scaling, make it a lot of work. 

V4 is .. what .. two decades old now?  She was the prime lady for a long time, but there is a "sameness" to so many of the characters for her. I'd rather spend the money on content that uses modern features than trying to make old content work with the new software. That's me, though. 8-)

DeeceyArt posted at 5:18 PM Thu, 6 June 2024 - #4485846

I wouldn't exactly call it proprietary sabotage. The same type of thing is true for graphics applications. Or, even office applications, for that matter.

I see your point, but I still cannot help but think it's all just a blatant cash-grab by DAZ: invent a character and roll out a ton of proprietary content, then when sales slow, invent a new character with all their own proprietary content, and repeat. It's just so exhausting [and expensive] to be shamelessly manipulated by this company time and again.

You forget one thing. DAZ is primarily a content company that gives their app away for free. The only other way they can make money is to start charging for DAZ Studio. 

I think there are a few stores that specializes in just that, legacy V4/M4 figure content support. 

With regards to motive of Content Creator and outlets, while I think most stores got into it for the passion of Art, sustaining the service properly over the long haul requires more than passion it takes dilligence, experience and much resources.  This is because performing customer transactins, and storing and serving large file content in a secure, fast and confident manner costs alot.  A secure ISP and managerd server will cost over $400 a month, not to mention store administration and other labor costs.  The 3D content market is rather niche and small user base, limited to the media formats supported so advertising and other typical monitization efforts to reduce site expenses will not typically begin to cover cost.  So if your passionate to keep content available for your hobby, you may need to charge _something_ for the service to help recover some of the costs. Profitibility is a high goal, break even is still tough because the price point pressure, on older compatable content is huge. Ppeople often expec it should be free or paid for the price of viewing a pop-up ad, but sadly those times burst with the .com crash and the rise of ransomeware thereafter.   THAT is the greatest risk to a content host.  It happens.  So to stay in the game, you need to go pro or go home.  That doesnt need you need to gouge, or put peoples data at risk.  It means you need to charge to make it safe and legit.

Nevertrumper posted at 7:00 AM Wed, 5 June 2024 - #4485724

freek2 posted at 5:18 PM Sun, 2 June 2024 - #2987875

[...] especially when the V4 model is already as versatile as I'll ever need. [...]

YIKES !
I get it, some people just prefer a New York back alley hot dog over a healthy 5 star dinner.

In addition, it is very easy to upgrade a legacy figure in Poser.

freek2 posted at 2:20 PM Fri, 7 June 2024 - #4485893

DeeceyArt posted at 5:18 PM Thu, 6 June 2024 - #4485846

I wouldn't exactly call it proprietary sabotage. The same type of thing is true for graphics applications. Or, even office applications, for that matter.

I see your point, but I still cannot help but think it's all just a blatant cash-grab by DAZ: invent a character and roll out a ton of proprietary content, then when sales slow, invent a new character with all their own proprietary content, and repeat. It's just so exhausting [and expensive] to be shamelessly manipulated by this company time and again.

Also as someone mentioned, Studio is free, but all the base Genesis figures are also free, the genesis essentials are free, you don't want to buy anything... you can do that. G8 - 8.1 had five years where that was the latest and greatest figure in Studio but no one was forced to use G8, plenty of people are still using G1 and G2 without any issues. I get that you like v4 and that's all you want to use and that's fine but you're insinuating that a company that brokers content for their own software is bad for selling that new content for said software. Would you prefer that instead of innovating, they stick with a figure that was released in 2006 where content over saturation was v4's biggest enemy in it's later lifespan? I really don't understand where the issue is.

freek2 posted at 2:20 PM Fri, 7 June 2024 - #4485893

DeeceyArt posted at 5:18 PM Thu, 6 June 2024 - #4485846

I wouldn't exactly call it proprietary sabotage. The same type of thing is true for graphics applications. Or, even office applications, for that matter.

I see your point, but I still cannot help but think it's all just a blatant cash-grab by DAZ: invent a character and roll out a ton of proprietary content, then when sales slow, invent a new character with all their own proprietary content, and repeat. It's just so exhausting [and expensive] to be shamelessly manipulated by this company time and again.

I'm really confused here. From what I'm reading it sounds like you don't use DAZ Studio so how can they be manipulating you if you're using Poser? lol

Also as someone mentioned, Studio is free, but all the base Genesis figures are also free, the genesis essentials are free, you don't want to buy anything... you can do that. G8 - 8.1 had five years where that was the latest and greatest figure in Studio but no one was forced to use G8, plenty of people are still using G1 and G2 without any issues. I get that you like v4 and that's all you want to use and that's fine but you're insinuating that a company that brokers content for their own software is bad for selling that new content for said software. Would you prefer that instead of innovating, they stick with a figure that was released in 2006 where content over saturation was v4's biggest enemy in it's later lifespan? I really don't understand where the issue is.

JohnDoe641 posted at 5:11 AM Sun, 21 July 2024 - #4487517

freek2 posted at 2:20 PM Fri, 7 June 2024 - #4485893

DeeceyArt posted at 5:18 PM Thu, 6 June 2024 - #4485846

I wouldn't exactly call it proprietary sabotage. The same type of thing is true for graphics applications. Or, even office applications, for that matter.

I see your point, but I still cannot help but think it's all just a blatant cash-grab by DAZ: invent a character and roll out a ton of proprietary content, then when sales slow, invent a new character with all their own proprietary content, and repeat. It's just so exhausting [and expensive] to be shamelessly manipulated by this company time and again.

I'm really confused here. From what I'm reading it sounds like you don't use DAZ Studio so how can they be manipulating you if you're using Poser? lol

Also as someone mentioned, Studio is free, but all the base Genesis figures are also free, the genesis essentials are free, you don't want to buy anything... you can do that. G8 - 8.1 had five years where that was the latest and greatest figure in Studio but no one was forced to use G8, plenty of people are still using G1 and G2 without any issues. I get that you like v4 and that's all you want to use and that's fine but you're insinuating that a company that brokers content for their own software is bad for selling that new content for said software. Would you prefer that instead of innovating, they stick with a figure that was released in 2006 where content over saturation was v4's biggest enemy in it's later lifespan? I really don't understand where the issue is.

Each time someone mentions that the studio is free in a Poser thread leads to a flow of back-and-forth discussion comparing two products that are no longer comparable.
So please stop it, it's tiring.

As long as the OP can clarify his stance and explain the cash grab manipulation that's he's been suffering through, then there should be no comparisons made because it has nothing to do with the programs themselves, because I agree that the comparisons have been done to death. I mention nothing about Poser vs Studio and I say nothing about features vs features so hopefully it will stay that way.

Oh? It's that simple to just learn an entirely new workflow, and then buy hundreds and hundreds of dollars of new content to use with their proprietary figures? Sure wish I'd thought of that.

/s 🙄

As long as the OP can clarify his stance and explain the cash grab manipulation that's he's been suffering through, then there should be no comparisons made because it has nothing to do with the programs themselves, because I agree that the comparisons have been done to death. I mention nothing about Poser vs Studio and I say nothing about features vs features so hopefully it will stay that way.

Oh? It's that simple to just learn an entirely new workflow, and then buy hundreds and hundreds of dollars of new content to use with their proprietary figures? Sure wish I'd thought of that.

/s 🙄

Y-Phil posted at 5:52 AM Sun, 21 July 2024 - #4487519

JohnDoe641 posted at 5:11 AM Sun, 21 July 2024 - #4487517

freek2 posted at 2:20 PM Fri, 7 June 2024 - #4485893

DeeceyArt posted at 5:18 PM Thu, 6 June 2024 - #4485846

I wouldn't exactly call it proprietary sabotage. The same type of thing is true for graphics applications. Or, even office applications, for that matter.

I see your point, but I still cannot help but think it's all just a blatant cash-grab by DAZ: invent a character and roll out a ton of proprietary content, then when sales slow, invent a new character with all their own proprietary content, and repeat. It's just so exhausting [and expensive] to be shamelessly manipulated by this company time and again.

I'm really confused here. From what I'm reading it sounds like you don't use DAZ Studio so how can they be manipulating you if you're using Poser? lol

Also as someone mentioned, Studio is free, but all the base Genesis figures are also free, the genesis essentials are free, you don't want to buy anything... you can do that. G8 - 8.1 had five years where that was the latest and greatest figure in Studio but no one was forced to use G8, plenty of people are still using G1 and G2 without any issues. I get that you like v4 and that's all you want to use and that's fine but you're insinuating that a company that brokers content for their own software is bad for selling that new content for said software. Would you prefer that instead of innovating, they stick with a figure that was released in 2006 where content over saturation was v4's biggest enemy in it's later lifespan? I really don't understand where the issue is.

Each time someone mentions that the studio is free in a Poser thread leads to a flow of back-and-forth discussion comparing two products that are no longer comparable.
So please stop it, it's tiring.

As long as the OP can clarify his stance and explain the cash grab manipulation that's he's been suffering through, then there should be no comparisons made because it has nothing to do with the programs themselves, because I agree that the comparisons have been done to death. I mention nothing about Poser vs Studio and I say nothing about features vs features so hopefully it will stay that way.

Nevertrumper posted at 7:00 AM Wed, 5 June 2024 - #4485724

freek2 posted at 5:18 PM Sun, 2 June 2024 - #2987875

[...] especially when the V4 model is already as versatile as I'll ever need. [...]

YIKES !
I get it, some people just prefer a New York back alley hot dog over a healthy 5 star dinner.

M4/V4 has more content by several orders of magnitude over any post V4 poser figure.

In addition, it is very easy to upgrade a legacy figure in Poser.

"Personally, I find the idea of paying for a dozen models all with their own proprietary accessories galling - especially when the V4 model is already as versatile as I'll ever need. What would be really great is a place where all non-V4 accessories [clothing/hair/props] have been converted from any other proprietary model for easy and convenient use with V4."

*

While I can't agree with neither of the OP's statements, I do know exactly where he's coming from.

I actually do dislike V4, because of her magnet infested cr2 file and her weird bodyshape and default look.

I tried to improve her usability by weightmapping her 17K "sister"-mesh plus a ton of other modifications, but in the end I still believe that the original Michael mesh (And his "Mystery-Mate", the original Stephanie) are the most efficient, robust, hobbyist friendly and versaitile Poser meshes ever designed.

(And the original Vicky isn't half-bad either)

*

Of course it's 2024 now, and everyone is ridin' the "Photorealism" train by now (Only to be derailed by AI, soon, but that's another story), so no content creator trying to put food on the table for his/her family will ever touch those old and obsolete meshes ever again.

*

But as they say: "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime"

So I learned how to model, sculpt and rig in Poser, and I solved my "support problem" by creating a bunch of clones for my favorite meshes.

These are my "Stephanie 1-to-V3" and "V2-to-V4" clones, for example:

Thanks to their simplicity, this was actually easier than you might think, with each taking me roughly a day to create.

"V2-to-V4" is based on the V2P4Lo figure, so there are no original body morphs, but I could easily transfer V4's body morphs over, if I wanted.

"Stephanie 1-to-V3" is based on the original StephanieLo mesh, but I had to fuse her dual necks first to match V3's grouping.

So, except for that, bot Steph's and V3's bodymorphs are possible.

But in the end I made these to wear V3's and V4's clothing, so I reserve the more elaborate sculpts for the original figures.

Similarly, I have M2-to-M3, M2-to-David and M2-to-M4" figures in my runtime and several more planned.

*

ANYWAY.....

So instead of asking for converted V4 clothing, why not asking for a set of "V4-to-Genesis" clones?

I'm not a coder, so I don't know how easy/complicated it would be to get the Genesis clothing out of Studio, or load the .duf files directly into Poser.

But even if you'd have to do it the "Brute Force" way by exporting the raw object files out of Studio and then adding the rigging back inside Poser, a set of "V4-to-Genesis" clones would be a tremendous help.

*

Basically, Poser and Studio tech isn't exactly Rocket Science. A mesh is a mesh is a mesh and a joint center a joint center.

And even if I personally don't like her that much, I'm sure V4 is still the most popular figure for Poser users by a wide margin.

So I'm pretty sure there IS a way to get the OP what he wants (And probably many other users, too), holding on to the figure he prefers while still having a supply of new clothing.