Yup, this is not helping me. Have fun.

JustBeCause posted at 11:31 AM Sat, 21 October 2023 - #4476590

Making a duplicate or tripple or even grater folder structure in the poser runtime just because the extensions are different does not make sense if you can load any file extension in the Character Library, even see the Thumbnails if it is a Pz Mt PP extension, got a outfit with Props well got em all with the outfit at the same place. Saving files is a different thing in Poser but after saving just move these to the appropriate place so you are sure to find em again.

   

That's what the Favorite Tab in the Library is for.  

Rhia474 posted at 12:40 PM Sat, 21 October 2023 - #4476598

Yup, this is not helping me. Have fun.

I'm sorry.  This thread has become more troubleshooting than answering your problem.  Where in particular are you having problems getting this to work?

Guess this is to complex having options in here that are already packed in files to run, I might of thought this would be a good way sharing setups but it seems that the manual way is preferable, so it be if this is Poser 13 that is not supporting decades of development then let the old behind and start from scratch. For me I actually have not seen much changes unless the material room.

Still thank you hborre for the hint about the material animations this will be a great help developing future options in my Poser creations and also thank you DeeceyArt for the layer tip this helped to solve allot of things for the Vascularity and others to come, probably would of not been done making these Veins sample posted. 

I see that there is not much interest in such a sample package in here so will drop it elsewhere, some other people might find a good use for them who knows, but this is really the wrong place to drop sample files or working packages. so will respect your way and just , if give the manual options :)

DeeceyArt posted at 10:24 AM Sat, 21 October 2023 - #4476585

Poser 13 has a FIle > Export > Morph injection command. 

Yes an option since P11 generating a Pmd Injection with all info even the tree settings for morphs or custom created versions, a great option :) I use this feature quiet often. After reading the Material animation option I thought there would be more possibilities of a material file and merging the Mat with the Morph injection for a new master dial into one file, in a sense that it loads the materials for Vascularity and the Master dials that can be used changing color and strength all in one file. There we are at the point where poser is not capable saving such a file. Unless you have a alternative suggestion for such a file. 

it is like the Mat Pz2 set I made as sample, yes it is the old way with the layer styles, they work in P13 and again for it to be working you need Pz2 mat files to add the skins, material files will kill this option.

I listen , read very carefully to understand suggestions, but these are not alternatives to what i am looking for, not the real solution adding Veins to a figure in combination with alternative skins, I mean interchangeable. 

So what exactly would be the Alternative if not the old way ? Except making it manually for each body Part of the figure and every time from scratch for a new skin. 

JustBeCause posted at 3:44 PM Sat, 21 October 2023 - #4476609

So what exactly would be the Alternative if not the old way ? Except making it manually for each body Part of the figure and every time from scratch for a new skin. 

That would be called a python script. Ironic, I know.....

shvrdavid posted at 7:17 PM Sat, 21 October 2023 - #4476617

JustBeCause posted at 3:44 PM Sat, 21 October 2023 - #4476609

So what exactly would be the Alternative if not the old way ? Except making it manually for each body Part of the figure and every time from scratch for a new skin. 

That would be called a python script. Ironic, I know.....

Sadly the py is also the old-fashioned way! There are already scripts, alternative material rooms where you can select multiple body parts making changes to them all at once, do not have to tell you that these are dead. creating new ones will just work for one version of poser. so make one for p13 will only work for P13 not for P12 not for P11. Irony is that no one in here is capable of doing it ! Just saying a Py, does not solve it same as saying , " Write a new feature into Poser " Solving the problem is to show a working alternative. The way I try was actually a new way as it has not been done before, using the old tradition to get a result. It would of been something new, a new solution!  It is mostly working, you could load these veins, Interchanging with skins ! Last night I have written a Pose INJ that is removing the glow into a Interactive master dial that can be injected into V4 without the need of a Pmd thanks to hborre, so like said this old way as you say is doing all new things that sure do work in P13, in P12, in P11.

I think you are making it your self very difficult not me, as if someone gets in here offering a working solution you will do anything rejecting these new Ideas, so asking you, who is stuck on the old way's.

You might not of noticed that all this was a move trying to help out a little ......    

I am glad you think I do things the old fashion way. And I do help out. So much so that my name is on the splash screen....

I was Curious to see in this thread how many are really watching in silence, so I placed the "VascularityP13V4" on my Cloud where I can see the amount of downloads, there were 38 downloads in less then 12h, it shows that there is silent interest. Have you ever asked your self why the Poser forum is ruled with silence? Older members that stopped contributing, members who stopped talking and sharing there ideas. Have you noted that your group is shrinking and can be counted on one hand ! where did all the people go ?  A very interesting way of slowly destroying a Poser forum, I sure must say. 

So what is a splash screen worth when members start getting out of the way ? A splash screen does not mean that you are loved, the splash screen is not a replacement for contribution, or have you really contributed in this thread ? Have you noted that not even the OP of this little group found any good words for the time spend finding a solution. 

So I may ask you, you that are famous on a splash screen, Is this the right way treating members of this forums who try to do a little contribution ? Believe me, if you are not aware, many have given up talking in these forums past few years. 

Do  NOT use me as a justification for your need to argue please.

Where did all the people go?  Maybe if this forum stayed on topic instead of drifting off into Python and Poser arcana and it might have more followers.  I'm opting out.

I am still here, reading and posting little emoji comments and occasional text. Can't try anything because at the moment  I am in rehab. Can't see the logic of the argument but the usefulness of the various techniques.  Sitting in my hospital gown, examining the networks of veins in my thighs and arms gave me an idea for applications of the techniques for darker skin colored actors. Has anyone thought about this? 

That gave me an idea i may try tonight or later in the week after work. Thank you for bringing up the importance of these solutions would need to work for different skin tones/ melanin content!

ThunderStone posted at 8:18 AM Mon, 23 October 2023 - #4476678

I am still here, reading and posting little emoji comments and occasional text. Can't try anything because at the moment I am in rehab. I can't see the logic of the argument but the usefulness of the various techniques.  Sitting in my hospital gown, examining the networks of veins in my thighs and arms gave me an idea for applications of the techniques for darker skin-colored actors. Has anyone thought about this? 

It crossed my mind but I haven't pursued it yet.  ATM, I offered a solution to vary the amount of vascular prominence across the different body zones in figures like V4.  Vascular map accuracy will appear more realistic on the skin texture.  The problem arises when you want to duplicate such effects on models with fewer zones then the technique does not work well.

hborre, I just tried your setup. The veins don't show at all when rendered. This is the setup based on what you posed above for the Vascularity layer.

hborre posted at 1:06 PM Sat, 21 October 2023 - #4476603

Rhia474 posted at 12:40 PM Sat, 21 October 2023 - #4476598

Yup, this is not helping me. Have fun.

I'm sorry.  This thread has become more troubleshooting than answering your problem.  Where in particular are you having problems getting this to work?

Well, not to put too fine a point to it, but everything. You guys lack a clear, concise way of explaining to an end user how to apply these materials easily. I understand this may only be possible with a script, which is fine. I am not asking for anyone to just give it to me; I am totally happy if someone gets inspired, writes a script to apply across matzones and then sells it.

But I don't understand how come that I can't reproduce basically anything you guys are talking about except the one simple one for Cycles oz_tangles posted several pages ago. I like to think I am reasonably intelligent, I have been using Poser for literal decades now, I like Superfly and...still. when I go through this thread, I feel like an idiot and I get frustrated.

Deecey was kind enough to PM me a few times and I am reading up on layers, but the fact remains that apart from the layers that are in an old D3D Superfly material collection, I never ever got layers to work in Superfly. I had such high hopes for it, you guys keep telling us end users how great they are and...well...I can't get them to work and every time I try to read anything connected to it, my eyes get crossed and I get lost in the technical jargon.

This is super aggravating.

Rhia474 posted at 6:15 PM Mon, 23 October 2023 - #4476712

hborre, I just tried your setup. The veins don't show at all when rendered. This is the setup based on what you posed above for the Vascularity layer.

Apply a value to the Bump channel.  Try a value like 0.08.

That is way too strong. I will play with the values,  see how I can tone it down.

Really not sure what I am doing wrong. Veins strength with your setup on arms is WAY too strong, barely anything is showing on the torso. Exact same layer setup on both materials, the only difference is of course that I am using Torso vasc map on torso and Limb on arm.

Torso layer:

Arm vasc layer (note that i already adjusted the bump strength after the first render and it is still ridiculously strong). Just want to understand how come for me she looks like she is taking Crocodile, lol.

What is the current default measurement in your poser settings? 

Decrease the HSV Value to 0.1 and see if that makes a difference.  It should be because the Value channel controls the intensity of your map; the lower the value, the less prominent the veins will appear.  

BTW, I am using feet as my unit of measure in Poser.

Isn't the strength of the bump effect not depending on the orientation of the light on the skin? as it's more visible on one arm, compared to the other and to the torso?

I will try making it simple, since new methods are making things to complicated.

Starting with the texture map! The old one used will probably not be giving good results. Make a new one, thinner fading lines. PS or other app set your brush to fade, set the distance, that you slowly decrease. Use white color on a layer above a skin texture as reference. Paint the Veins when finished set a new black layer behind the painted veins and save it. It is essential having a good texture !

I had made a simple sample but it probably was not what you were looking for. so make it your self this way it will be set up for your taste :) when picking a color for the Veins, a dark skin for instance set a basic dark color, set up the lights you will use for the Artwork and make a test render, from the render take a color from the skin for the vein, this will give you a good contrast. Repeat for every map region.

If the method of hborre is the choice of the 3 given in here set it up the way told for a basic start it is just fine. 

This sample is using a little stronger Bump strength so you can see the result a little better for the tint of the Veins. 

Now that you made better texture maps rather then using the Old Vascularity maps you are set to go. I am not going again into the matter of making Pz material setups for it or Interactive master dials for changing the strength and color of the veins so do these manually for every desiderated body region. 

The essential thing is having a good texture map. Lights will affect the way veins show so set up the lights before adapting the Bump and Color of the veins.

Reducing the Bump a little like in the render shown above will give you a smoother result, also depending on your Light setup and the distance, size of your render.

Spending a little time in a paint application will give you better results, save you allot of time and frustrations using textures that do not work right ..... 

This for instance is the setup used in the renders previously posted The Texture maps are sharper with a slight blur on the borders, they are thinner then the ones from the Vascularity package. Color used for the Veins is the tint of the Skin used.

 

Now assuming that you are having problems finding the right color, or tint for the veins, then simply add the used texture of the doll for the color, this will give you the right tint for every region of the map, or at least help a little, reduce the Bump value depending on how sharp your Vein map is.

using the above setup with a Dark skin will result like the render below .... naturally in such a case it does not matter allot anymore how dark the skin will be. For a final you just need to setup a good light and fine retouch on Bump and contrast of the vein coloring with the skin map applied.

Just a quick scrap

Now lets say you wish having a slight blue tint on the veins using a rather white skin, do it just like above applying the skin texture to the color node of the Vein layer. Give a slight blue touch, you will not see it by eye as it will almost be like a white with the blue info. Again set your preferred bump strength depending the Vein map you are using.

If you wish having for instance a stronger effect on the chest with decreasing vain bump and a blue touch you can make the color dark blue in direction of black and reduce the values of the HSV from 0.02 to 0.002 really low the bump will need a allot higher value so instead of .007 .17 or more again it all depends on the Vascularity map you created. My map is just a basic and sure can be done allot better. Painting it keep the lines thin you always can enlarge them for your needs, give them a slight zig zag where the branch nodes are make it stronger like little knots, that will give a nice realistic effect.

  

This Vascularity thread just came in handy to make my Mr.Halloween 2023 right in time before the 31st. Sure going to be a nasty standalone scarecrow for Poser.....

Overworked the effects a little making the skin not look to dry and inverting the Vascularity .... guess it is going to be a matter of taste 

Looks good.  The skin is a bit too glossy, almost waxy, but it's acceptable.

Thank you, yes trying to reduce this glossy a little, this is a very sensible part finding the right setting, it is where the light also is interfering on slight movements :) at least for Halloween skin just can't go wrong :)

ok finetuned that skin a little mixing the dry and the waxy to get a balance in-between also balanced out the vascularity system not inverting it all. the skin texture is now having 3 levels, Bump, Displacement and gradient bump. Optix render time 5 sec

  

The setup is now supported in Superfly and as well in Firefly without having to change the textures, result differ a little but are in both render engines giving a satisfaction. Firefly renders in two levels and superfly in one.

That looks great for a good monster's makeup or ghoulish affair. Guess i will have to wait until after I return home. 😪 

This looks good, but just so we're clear:

This is NOT actual displacement, just bump, or did you subdivide the model several times?

I'm also curious what exact GPU you are using to get render times down to 5sec?

Have the "Fireflies" been removed with a filter or are you're settings high enough to remove them?

I'd also be interrested to see an OpenGL preview.

It seems the OpenGL preview actually changes, depending on what render engine (Firefly/Superfly) is used.

I think you need to render at least once to see the effect.

Thanks!

JoePublic posted at 9:08 AM Sun, 29 October 2023 - #4476985

This looks good, but just so we're clear:

This is NOT actual displacement, just bump, or did you subdivide the model several times?

I'm also curious what exact GPU you are using to get render times down to 5sec?

Have the "Fireflies" been removed with a filter or are you're settings high enough to remove them?

I'd also be interrested to see an OpenGL preview.

It seems the OpenGL preview actually changes, depending on what render engine (Firefly/Superfly) is used.

I think you need to render at least once to see the effect.

Thanks!

Actually displacement " one of the settings " no subdividing  it is a Standalone Figure not based on any Mill or Genesis figures. This results having a 5 sec render or less in Optix high quality. Firefly with auto high setting about 7 seconds CPU i7-11700K

This is the Figure resolution of the face giving you an Idea with the above material setup. ( Preview ) The modified setup, whet skin already gives the skin displacement in the preview. Renders in two levels Firefly and one in Optix. No need of subdivision for the render results above.

Shown here is the Bump setting used like in the Vascularity and the first render posted that had a sandy dry skin .  ( Preview )

 Just finished up that Halloween release! Simple and effective .....

That PoserSurface node is incorrect.  You are doubling up on your Diffuse and Specular by using both those channels and their alternatives.  The Reflection_Lite_Mult should be ticked off; that feature is a hack reserved for gleaming, metallic surfaces.  

ThunderStone posted at 7:22 PM Tue, 24 October 2023 - #4476766

What is the current default measurement in your poser settings? 

Feet, exactly like hborre's.

hborre posted at 12:19 PM Sun, 29 October 2023 - #4476991

That PoserSurface node is incorrect.  You are doubling up on your Diffuse and Specular by using both those channels and their alternatives.  The Reflection_Lite_Mult should be ticked off; that feature is a hack reserved for gleaming, metallic surfaces.  

Actually did not get any broken lines .... I think it does not matter if correct or incorrect in the theory, the praxis shows a correct render for what needs to be achieved, so for a final render it seems correct giving a cool skin effect, not even causing a render slowdown. You need N B and I maps depending on what you want . If I remove a node or change it  you will not get this result on the skin, no way after trying so many variations. Will have to try ticking off the Ref light multy and see what is going to happen, Have not noted that it is on. But see what will happen. 

If you can give me a sample ( Advice ) that is able giving such a effect in a correct way I sure would be very interested, tried already so many ways ...... 

Ok, The RLM does not change anything if on or off in this setup ?! It is  also Important to know that the setup above is for SF and FF renders, For SF alone some nodes are unnecessary but are needed for FF. Like said any alternative sure is appreciated if they work, alternatives that are not working are obviously not the right ones :) 

Thanks for sharing your technique and experiences. I was debating whether to upgrade to 13 from 12. I will take all information under advisement. 

Earlier in this thread (8 October) I noted that Superfly produces weird effects with Superfly producing "negative" displacements.  The discussion here has wandered away from this but the fact remains that Superfly does not appear to handle displacement correctly (this not only affects vascularity maps but any displacement maps.  I reported this to Poser support on 2 November (local time).  Today I got this reply from Nerd3D:

"Thanks for reporting this. I can't believe this but that's been broken since we initially implemented SuperFly over 7 years ago. There's supposed to be a Displacement node between the Image map and the displacement output on the Cycles root. It was never added. It's in the code but was never included in the UI. 

"This will be fixed in the next update of Poser." 

Yay!!!!

oz_tangles posted at 11:48 PM Fri, 3 November 2023 - #4477287

Earlier in this thread (8 October) I noted that Superfly produces weird effects with Superfly producing "negative" displacements.  The discussion here has wandered away from this but the fact remains that Superfly does not appear to handle displacement correctly (this not only affects vascularity maps but any displacement maps.  I reported this to Poser support on 2 November (local time).  Today I got this reply from Nerd3D:

"Thanks for reporting this. I can't believe this but that's been broken since we initially implemented SuperFly over 7 years ago. There's supposed to be a Displacement node between the Image map and the displacement output on the Cycles root. It was never added. It's in the code but was never included in the UI. 

"This will be fixed in the next update of Poser." 

Yay!!!!

This sure would be great, allot of issues would be solved if it gets fixed on the coming Poser update :) 

oz_tangles posted at 11:48 PM Fri, 3 November 2023 - #4477287

Earlier in this thread (8 October) I noted that Superfly produces weird effects with Superfly producing "negative" displacements.  The discussion here has wandered away from this but the fact remains that Superfly does not appear to handle displacement correctly (this not only affects vascularity maps but any displacement maps.  I reported this to Poser support on 2 November (local time).  Today I got this reply from Nerd3D:

"Thanks for reporting this. I can't believe this but that's been broken since we initially implemented SuperFly over 7 years ago. There's supposed to be a Displacement node between the Image map and the displacement output on the Cycles root. It was never added. It's in the code but was never included in the UI. 

"This will be fixed in the next update of Poser." 

Yay!!!!

OMG, yay indeed--thank you!!!!

Yay!!! Fixed at last!!!! 

The displacement node bug when using the CyclesSurface root node has finally been fixed in Poser 13.895. This render shows the bug:  

It usually doesn't show up on plane surfaces, but when the surface has a more complicated geometry (such as a vascularity map on a human figure) the displacement varies across the surface and can even be inverted.  The same setup using version 13.895 is

The test object is the default primitive sphere.  The material setup is shown here:

It has taken a year for the fix to be implemented but better late than never, I guess.

An actual displacement node has been added to the material room that will give you better setting control.

Don't get too excited yet. It's still not right. There's a artifact in the shading. Look at the inside of the "o" that shadow is 0,0,0 black. It shouldn't be. This got past smoke testing and beta. We're still working on it.

If you plug a displacement map directly into the Physical Root that will give simple displacement. If you're using the Cycles Root. There will need to be a VectorDisplacement or (vanilla) Displacement between the image and the root input.