Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=104804&Start=1&Sectionid=0&Form.Search=shadownet

Bah. Who cares if the naked women get the most viewings? Is that the art YOU want to make? Its not like you're getting paid for page views, and there's plenty of people who are coming to see your kind of art. Post your art to share it with others and, hopefully, get some feedback so you can continue to improve. The thumbnail could be better though. Its so close to the dragon's eye its doesn't give much indication of what the picture is about. The atmosphere that looks so cool in the whole pic makes the thumb look overly blurry. You could try to zoom out a little and give people a better tease. BTW, you should be proud of all your art. Being creative is its own reward.

Don't feel bad, Shadow, it happens to all of us at some point. Your image is definitely one to be proud of, and is deserving of some looks. One of the main things I've noticed that can create a problem is the rapid influx of new art to the galleries...it's easy for a great image to get buried 4 pages in very quickly. Just keep at it, and I'm sure you'll start gathering more attention...just like I did.

Shadownet, I went and looked at your image and you should be proud! Excellent work :)

I always find it strange what does well and what doesn't. But one thing I do know just because Joe Blow gets 300+ hits and Billy Bob only gets 10... does not mean that Blow's is better... So, don't think it's a reflection on your work. Enjoy your successes, post if you like to share them, not counting on people to validate it. You already did. It's a very nice pic. Should be proud of it. ~s~

it's a fair image, you were very resourceful to have used those props, i like how her outfit turned out. and all of them freebies? extra points to you! :) some crits: the mountain material and ground material are not convincing. you can see those rocks are just plopped there. i don't know how to fix this specifically, i'm just letting you know what i thought. :) the dragons are posed nicely, but she is not. she could be in a more dynamic position. what is her relationship to the rest of the scene? she could be standing in a shop window for the difference it makes now. wish you luck on the next render. :)

I just took a look and it's obvious that a lot of time and effort went into the textures and atmospheric effects. It's something you should be proud of, no matter who sees it, or not. If a lot of artists depended on others approval, we'd be without some of the greatest works of art, and a lot poorer, for those lost. So keep going, and do it for youself. Do it just to share, or for the enjoyment of yourself or others. By the way the Wyvern comes from Poseworks, I believe. I actually like it better than the DAZ(Zygote)dragon, and have suggested it, many a time, here, when people ask about where to find one.

I do sometimes find that pictures of mine I think are great are received quite cooly, while those I hardly thought worth posting go down a storm.

First of all: I like your image specially with the dragon in the distance.And as all the other said,dont make your images for getting many views and good comments.( of course everyone is proud if he gets good comments , me too)

First let me apologize in advance as I know my reply will be a rather lengthy one, but the best way I know to clear the air is to try and say what you mean and mean what you say. So I will attempt to explain. To begin, I want to thanks one and all who responded to this "cry for help". Your encouragement and comments here mean a lot. Not so much because I want my ego feed, though I am human and we all like to feel appreciated. But rather, because I truly want to get better and I find it frustrating when I specifically turn to this forum for feedback on an issue I am trying to better understand - such as the recent lighting test I posted (just one example of several I could cite) - and I get very little or no response. Rather discouraging. Not only to me, but to others struggling along to improve as well, I am sure. I finally decided I must be going about this all wrong, and that the only way I was know to fix it is to lay my cards on the table, hence the reason for this post. I know the folks here are basically really nice people and do not want to hurt anyones feeling, but sometimes I need to be told things I may not know or may not wish (at firt) to hear. I am well aware that I am no Rembrant or Picaso, so I have no false illusions about my Art. A comment, like the ones Aprilysh made here, may sting the pride if one let's them, but when given honestly the feedback offered can only help show a path to improvement. Provided the comments made are the right ones, which is why it helps when others also comment and either support or refute the points being made with their own thoughts and comments. In the example here, Aprilysh was able to state what seemed wrong, but was unable to suggest a way to fix it. Okay, no problem so long as someone else picks up the ball, so to speak, and gives some additional enlightenment. That way, I can try to make an informed decision on the criticism being made and what needs to be done to address it. It may be I am going about this all wrong. Hey, I am an old dog and am sometimes slow to learn a new trick. When I first became a member here, when we wanted feedback on a WIP, we posted it here to the Forum. Well that doesn't seem to work anymore, as the last few time I have tried clearly show. More often than not these days, I feel like a I'm sitting on the sidelines watching the game, while this little kid inside me keeps crying out, hey coach let me in." The most recent example of this was the Flute (V2 little girl) preset I finally posted to Free stuff. If it had not been for a private email to bloodsong (bothering her when I know how busy she is) I would still be waiting to get the figure finished as I got almost no comment from here when I asked for help. Okay, I got big shoulders. I struggled along, I persevered. I bugged bloodsong. I over came. :o) But, now, some 800 plus downloads later, I still haven't a clue as to whether or not the preset has been of any use to anyone, or if it has bugs in it that need to be fixed, etc.! Without feedback, I must assume that everything is okay and that no one is having any problems with the file, or else it is really lousy and they have no use for it. Like so many here, I do not have the luxory of a lot of time, but I do want to give back when and as often as I can. But that is complicated when I start a project, need an answer, and have problems getting it. It is also sort of hard to improve that way, which only means that the next Free item or Art work I post will probably be as flawed as the ones before. Lastly, I know that I am not the only one feeling this way. I am not sure what can be done. I do understand why a lot of this happens, as mentioned in this thread by some of you. But this is a community and like any communtiy we all have our individual strengths and weaknesses, likes and dislikes, viewpoints and opinions. This gives us a wide range of diversity and what should be a great source to tap into for comment and feedback, particularly when you paused to note the number of surfers currently online. Can that many people not have an opinion? G Thanks for indulging me. And a special thanks to any of you who actually read through this discourse, your patience alone is admirable. (shadownet will shut up now and let the issue lie, chips faling where they may)

Grrrrr! Forgive all the typos! Blame it on an insufficent lack of morning coffee. That, and the first day with the new fingers. :O)

Shadownet,
I have felt your pain, but there is some things you should know about page views. As someone said, you aren't getting paid by page views and a huge amount of page views is not any indication of the quality of your work. For awhile I agonized over the page views and while I still don't agree with their purpose, I realized it's not the page views that count in the general scheme of things anyway when it comes to artwork. Listen to what people tell you about your work. Focus on the positive. It will make you feel better. If you must guage your work based on views, try to at least guage based on similar work than trying to compare to the pinups, a game you will always lose.

Since page views are an unfortunate part of the wonder of Renderosity, here is what I have found out over my time here that has helped me come to grips with the whole thing...

The first and foremost is that page views are a product of 90% marketing. Even artists we consider quite gifted (especially within the poser pinup circle) have quite a stark contrast between their pinups and non-pinups. Views are not judged so much on originality or any artistic qualification, as much as how sexy is the image percieved to be. This is not to say that there is not true quality in many images, just that people are more inclined to pick a sexy picture than one that isn't. Certain artists gain their reputation from not only their quality, but their ability to create in this popular genre. Those artists who choose not to do this kind of art are at a disadvantage from the start in relation to page views.

Not only are the poser pinups popular from a sexy point of view, but many of those same artists as well as others are beta testers and thus privy to the latest stuff, that you and I can't even get. This also goes a long way into their page views, because people like to see what's new on the horizon for them to play with. It's like looking at 2002 cars versus 1998 cars. The 1998 car might be just as good a quality, but they're not nifty new toys.

Also, what I wasn't aware of and you may not be either, is that the posting of the picture is only part of the fun. Many post URL's to a variety of different venues such as chat, forums (like you did here), mailing lists, friends, ICQ lists, etc, etc, etc. That is still another reason why page views often seem warped. While certainly not all artists use this route, it does explain why a picture gets 250 in 6 hours, versus 25 in that same 6 hours. For awhile, I wondered if 225 were just skipping the other works including mine, but then I realized that people were probably being directed to that work from an outside source than just people scanning the galleries in general. Of course, many will look at some and not others, but to that degree was a little hard to swallow...

Time of posting, though a much lower factor than the others, can also effect page views. Posting in the middle of the night when viewers are not really surfing, but people are still posting, can mean that your picture is on page 5 or 6 by the time people do look through the galleries in the afternoon or evening. Also holidays. Remderosity events, or other real world things can also adversely effect the number of views. For instance, Halloween had the contest which I imagine many viewed in lieu of the gallery that day as even the most popular seemed to not do as well. Keep in mind the average span of views is about a day and a half. Any after that usually trickle in as a result of you showing your gallery, others showing your gallery, or people looking after noticng your latest work. There are those that get lots of views beyond that from marketing or being in the top 20, but generally a day and a half is the window of opportunity...

How big the image is is also a consideration for people with slow connections. People are more likely to look at one that will come up in 30-45 seconds then 3-4 minutes...

The most powerful advertising that you have though is the thumbnail. Finding the right thumbnail is crucial if you are concerned about page views. I've often wondered if I've gotten the right one, or would more people have seen it if I picked this or that. Here are some suggestions I hope you will find useful in relation to thumbnails...

1> If there is a woman in the scene, always use her as part of your thumbnail. She will attract much more views than a dragon or an inanimate object would.

2> If there is no woman in the picture, then why not? No, just kidding. Try to pick the most alluring part of the picture and one that will give the most tease. In your picture, the dragon eye (beyond the woman) was a great choice.

3> It's not a good idea though to zoom in on a section of the picture as it makes the thumbnail seem grainy and people will assume, usually wrongly, that the picture is equally as grainy. It is okay to pick a larger portion and shrink it so it fits.

4> It's also not a good idea to put the whole picture as the thumbnail as people will assume they've then seen the whole picture and there is no need to click on it, forgetting of course that they get all the wonderous detail that the full version has.

5> Always post a thumbnail of some kind (which I know you do, but a note to others).

I've been a big fan of your work shadownet and I look forward to each picture and I hope you won't get too depressed over logistics. This info helped me and I hope it will help you.

It took a while, but the thing I learned the most from all of this was to revel in the art itself and all will be good.

A few thoughts...

• I like the image :)
• The thumbnails is ... well, weak. The subject is good (the Dragon eye) but it is so expanded that it is fuzzy. it looks like abstract art.
• There is simply no help for the fact that people like to look at pretty, sexy things. This means pin-ups will almost always get more views. That's life.

I myself was really proud of this render, but I knew it wouldn't get anything like the page views ... but it took every bit as long to learn how to do it as any pin-up I ever did.

Chin up and well done!

Thanks ShadowWind. Much of the information you stated here was unknown to me and does help me to see things in a new light. I can not tell you how often I have agonized over what to do about the thumbnail. Your tips here will help a lot. I do want to make something clear to everyone reading this though. How many page hits I get is not really what I am concerned about. I would be lying of course if I said that a certain part of me is always pleased to see a lot of numbers, but what I want and need most is comments like Aprilysh and ShaowWind gave. These teach me something, or atleast open my eyes to a new way of looking and thinking. I am certain others will benefit from the comments made here, so again I thank each and every one of you for taking the time to respond, giving my ego a boost, and just - well being there. Hugs to all

Dear Shadow, listen to AprilYSH & ShadowWind, they have the goods. Posting in the galleries can be disappointing if you want helpful criticism--there is SO many uploads there and in this forum that anything gets buried very fast. For a lot of folks who don't tune in everyday, stuff just seems to go whipping past. Only Renderosity junkies like me see a fraction of this stuff. i'm glad you want some help--mostly i give criticisms, trying to help people to be better, and i've seldom gotten thanked for it. No matter. A thick skin is required online. i hope you will not feel i am trying to be unkind--it's rather the reverse. Suggestions for improvement, at a glance: Mostly, i find that people (and that include me!) don't take pictures quite far enough toward finished. Some of what you see in your head has not yet made it onto the page. :^) Poser seldom does real 3D backgrounds well--not your fault. Bryce or some such world-building 3D program really is necessary to get it looking right. So the texture on the background mountains looks oddly stretched and striped. What can ya do?! The dragons are fun, but i'm wondering about the lovely lady--what is she doing there? She could be threatening the dragon, patting his head, sitting on him, feeding him cookies... please involve her more, pose-wise. Her costume is very nice! With that sword... she needs to be cutting cake to feed the dragons, or slaying one or something. i don't know what you did with the lighting... it looks a bit like the whole pic got over-lightened, but you said no post... hmm. The dark areas are too light, and there aren't really any highlights. This does give it a dreamy effect, but a touch more contrast will make the nice colors pop. See ya round! --Nan

Thanks Nan. I too have thick skin, so alway feel free to say what you think about any of my stuff. It is the only way I know to get better at it. Otherwise, I just keep repeating the same old mistakes. :o) BTW, the lighting issue you mention is probably due to my using the depth cue setting when I rendered the picture to create the cloudy like atomosphere. I have yet to figure out how to use it well.

hey shadow! This is my view on it hun! I have to work really hard on the actual thumbnail before i can get some page views! Mostly make it look the best as in maybe zoom in on a section that apealing or amazing to get people's attention. The overall picture is not bad at all in fact i think your getting very very good! You may want to look at the overall mood of the scene the lighting perhaps give it more realistic shade and shadows. Its over all too foggyish to tell the shadows ect. As far as the amount of views you are getting because of the image is not the case! True to fact is the title or thumbnail that first catches the viewers eye! Like anything in life. Would you take the plain hamburger with nothing on it it looks dry and sitting out a while or the nice fancy looking one with nice toppings. When you go to eat the fancy one you realize its made of wax! Yuck But the plain one ends up being the most delicous hamburger you ever had. You see its all Presentation that matters when it comes to hits and views! But After the User decides to go past that first step then it becomes the overall image thats in play? Understand? Well hun I hope you do! The image is fantastic you are getting good! If you ever have any questions or want to talk to me about it feel free to drop me a line here or on icq my ICQ# is 7484243 -Love Lady Cherry

Thanks Lady Cherry, for both your kind comments and offer of help. I suppose sometimes (probably more often than not) I think things to be a certain way and they are not. I certainly am getting a reality check, along with a lot of well needed advice - which I will certainly heed. Did I mention how proud I am to be part of this Forum? Such wonderful people here.

All right, Shadownet, you asked for honest opinions - here are my purely personal reactions to your images, and some pointers on what I'd do to change things I don't like - take what you find useful (if any), and continue from there. This is going to be long and hard, so no hard feelings if you don't read all of it ;-) And harsh as I may sound, my honest opinion really is that you're one of the true artists (not pin-up producers) in the galleries, and you deserve more attention - so go get it! o Love your color sense - your "Ragnarok" is positively poetic. Your "Last Venusian" is apocalyptic. Whatever you do when you get color ideas, keep doing it! o The composition, or "story", in your images is ... well, there hardly seems to be any. No interesting camera angle, no interaction between characters (in your image above, the lady and the dragon seems to be in two different worlds), no particular story to tell or point to make. o Despite the beautiful form and color, lighting does little to show or enhance either. No focus, no "beautification", no mood setting - see my gripes about lack of story, above. o Your thumbnails do not do justice to your pics, as mentioned in previous posts. Hard to tell from the thumbs what your "Dew Fairy" or "Angeline" are pictures of. To sum up : I'd work more at composition, story, lighting and thumbnails. How? o Pick up a few good books about photography - many of the good ones have superb advise on subject composition. All of'em have good advice on lighting. Don't be afraid of trying to re-create some of the pictures in the books - all the old masters spent years copying their masters' works. o Study books on art history - I especially recommend books on Baroque painting (and Baroque art in general), and especially Caravaggio, who was a master of composition, story, lighting, form and color. Don't be afraid to re-create, etc. o For a special treat, look up a book or two with Gustave Dore illustrations (The Bible, Dante's Inferno, and more). For grandiose, storytelling illustration, they're unbeatable! o Go to the http://www.artrenewal.org, and go there often. Their galleries are immense and immensely inspiring. Don't be afraid to... ;-) o At last, but hardly least : study the pics in R'osity's galleries that get the most viewings and the best ratings. Apart from a lot of skin, they all have a lot of qualities (good thumbnails, good rendering etc.). Don't be afraid... And, if you haven't ordered your christmas present yet, ask for a copy of Boris Vallejo's "Fantasy Art Techniques" (Arco Publ., NY, 1985). If a bible on the making of colorful, eye-catching imagery exists, this is it. It's written for traditional painters, but every bit of advice in there can be applied in 3D as well. Signing off, and looking forward to more of your images - and BTW, you've got an admirable lot of guts to ask openly for attention and advice here in the forums. Far may you go with your art.

Thanks Thip. No make that a great big thanks. The both barrel delivery is just the sort of shot to the system that I have been asking for. It gives me much to think about and to work on. It also gives me avenues to pursue for increased learning. Thanks again. :o)

Actually thip, thanks for the info. Can use some of it myself, especially the book recommendations. Been looking for good books on art to learn the finer points of lighting, presentation, etc. Didn't know old Boris had one out either.

To Shadownet, I apologize if I sounded like you only wanted page views and it may seem from my dissertation that that is what bothered me as well, and it did, but not for the sole sake of a number. Page views indicate that people have seen our work. We then hope that a portion of those people will comment that it moved them (an integral part of art), or there is a critique on technique, lighting, etc, that helps us in our quest to improve. I didn't comment on the art itself as I am just learning myself and don't yet feel confident in making such criticisms to others. So while page views are certainly not anyone's ultimate goal, they are a part of the experience and getting people to look at your work (which is required to critique it) is part of the battle in this really fast moving gallery. I just wanted to share my seemingly long road of discovery with others who may not understand why page views are what they are.

Also I am no stranger to the views and comment ride. My own gallery may seem like a roller coaster as I tend to vary in style a lot, because I get bored with one particular genre. I love to experiment with new techniques or new styles and that's good and bad, but it's the way I like to work. The point is, don't be afraid to experiment even if it means a picture with less comments or views or that may go against the mainstream like soulhuntre's example.

Good luck shadownet and thanks for sharing your work...

Oh, one more thing...As to the free stuff, keep in mind that most people download and don't look at the stuff until they need it. This is mostly because people are afraid it won't be there later on, since server hosts go down like flies. So don't get too discouraged if you don't see it pop up in pictures. Perhaps people just haven't found the right image that uses it. I see lots of free stuff that is great quality but not used yet. I also see lots of marketplace items that are the same way...

Heya ShadowWind, no apology necessary. I found your comments very informative. Page views are certainly a thing we all like to get. Besides, once I go on the record with a thread like this, no matter what my true reasons or how often I try to clearify and state to folks that I am not just trying to get my ego stroke but am honestly in seeking ways to better myself, there is always going to be some who form their own opinion of my and my motives. That too is life. Regardless of what any might perceive as my motives, I know that I have gotten loads of useful feedback and that is what I came for. So thanks to everyone again. PS, Soulhuntre in the course of going back and forth with these post and rereading the various comments made, it seems almost as if I purposely ignored your remarks. This was not my intent, and no oversight was meant. I thought I would mention it as I want you and everyone else to know just how much I appreciate every one of you who took the time to reply to this thread. Also, I went and looked at your GI test. That is exactly the sort of thing in the way of Art I marvel at. It is a fairly simple scene, and yet it is so powerful and seems to take on a meaning all it's own, just from the way you have it lit and composed. That is the sort of thing I crave to learn. Well, I can't say that folks haven't pointed me in the right direction. Now it is just up to me to apply myself and learn. :o)

"PS, Soulhuntre in the course of going back and forth with these post and rereading the various comments made, it seems almost as if I purposely ignored your remarks. This was not my intent, and no oversight was meant. I thought I would mention it as I want you and everyone else to know just how much I appreciate every one of you who took the time to reply to this thread. Also, I went and looked at your GI test. That is exactly the sort of thing in the way of Art I marvel at. It is a fairly simple scene, and yet it is so powerful and seems to take on a meaning all it's own, just from the way you have it lit and composed. That is the sort of thing I crave to learn. Well, I can't say that folks haven't pointed me in the right direction. Now it is just up to me to apply myself and learn. :o)"

No problem. I didn't take any offense at all - I know how discussions go and sometimes a comment isn't focused on - that doesn;t mean it isn't appreciated...

Hmm. That might apply more than the rest of my responses :)

Seriously - I know what you mean. There is a lot of art out there that I like... but I will never do that. I am not an artist, I haven't ever been and I don't think I ever will be - at least not in this area. My are is all in code I think.

I am just a guy with a lot of images in my head - things I want to see and things I want to build. But I need to be able to explore them, animate them... interact them with each other. In other words - I need a virtual space.

That means I need to know how to do this, in 2-D in the machine... post work won't help me :)

Hey Soulhuntre sounds like what you need is a direct plugin from your head to the computer. Now that would be cool! Just think it, and make it so. As for your link, I think I'm in love! (I just hope that love with a digital gal is proper, and her digital Dad understands.) G

The biggist factor I have seen is that the preview must show a large pair of brests to garner viewers.

True, this has been pointed out before. Funny thing is I do not have a problem with looking at a beautiful woman - or for that matter beautiful things, clothed or not, so long as I find it tastefully portrayed (I know, that can vary with the viewer). Yet more and more, I find myself breezing past just such thumbnails without so much as a gander. But then I like steak too - in measure. Not the whole cow shoved down my throat. And not for every meal, nor even every day.

"Hey Soulhuntre sounds like what you need is a direct plugin from your head to the computer. Now that would be cool! Just think it, and make it so." Yup :) That would do it. And I am basically working to what amounts to that goal. 3D characters, good sets and a motion capture rig. My whole company is geared to working ont hings that justify those purchases :)

Your company got a web page up? Sounds really interesting.

Shadownet, I no longer have a dsl line, but even I did, I didn't have time to browse through the galleries. However, I heeded the plea and followed the link. Pros: The color in the image is lovely. You have a good sense of balance and tone and psychological impact. The detail work is nice, and the prop usage (aka scavenging) is very good. Cons: The basic composition is poor. The image is far too static and the major creatures are not interacting with each other or the viewer in a meaningful way. If they were all looking at us, or at each other warily, there would be more dramatic tension in the piece. Schlabber has an excellent tutorial on how to pose figures which might be helpful to you. If you think in terms of silhouettes, you'll avoid problems such as the nose touching her elbow. I'd avoid books by Boris or Rowena: they paint lush skin tones, but they have no sense of composition. The Caravaggio recommendation is particularly good. In addition to Dore, I'd suggest Will Eisner and Scott McCloud. Yes, comics are sequential art, but they TELL A STORY and they involve the viewer. Composition and framing are essential to this. I do urge you to keep working on this. Carolly

Corrected version of reply I deleted - way too many typos Thanks Carolly. It is funny how you don't realize things you should know when you start working on something like this. Much of what has been pointed out to me as being in error with this picture is stuff that I should have been aware of, have been aware of in past pictures and done much better on, but completely forgot about in the course of this one evolving. It is from all the wonderful feedback here I have learned something very very illuminating about myself and about how I create my art work. There are certain pitfalls I tend to fall into when I am creating a work based centering on the fact that I ofen fail to have a clear vision or notion of what it is I am attempting to do at the onset. Most of my works start out rather crudely as one idea and in the course of things end up as something else completely. Not a bad thing, except that when I try to hold on to elements in the first that nolonger have a place in the latter. In this instance, the woman's pose began as a way to feature the new V2 character I was working on. Even her original outfit was completely different. The starting intent was to say, hey what do you folks think of this gal. From that point on, it seems, I lost all conscious thought of how she fit into the scene once the more creative aspects of my subconscious took over and I began adding items to turn the scene into a work of Art. Looking back on some of my past works this is not the only time I have done this, and has almost always resulted in my getting similar comments about the main characters not seeming to fit in or interact well with the scene. I beleive Aprilysh nailed the root of the problem right on the head when she commented, "she could be standing in a shop window for all the difference it makes now" How true an observation as that is more or less How I started out to pose her. I have also realized something else - from a psychological standpoint - about my work. I am and have always been a loner and tend to shy and shun away from most every and all forms of social interactions (when I can). This is one of the reasons why you will never catch me in a chat room, or hanging out at a ballgame, or interacting with folks in a grand social standing. Even my posting of this thread to this forum is not my norm as it tends to takes away much of the anonymity I wish for myself. Nevertheless, no one is an Island and often social interactions are a must as in this instance where I seriously needed sage help and advise from my peers. But that psychological viewpoint I hold comes across in my pictures quite frequently. There is always an isolation and a certain aloft in my work that I was not fully aware of until now. That is because I (of my own choice perhaps) choose to see the world via the eyes of the accidental tourists. Freezing moments of interest in snapshot images in my head. This is clearly evident in this picture as well as the girl's pose could easily be her pausing a moment to let a wandering tourist who happened on her snap a picture of her with her dragons. An amaturish photographer at that (and I should know better as I have had some training in photography). A more skilled photographer would have tried to capture her "unaware" in her own environment and thereby perserve the moment as much as would a skilled artist on canvas or the computer screen. So yes, all the comments here have helped greatly. I am still churning them over in my head and I am certain I will gleen even great insights as well. I will also turned to the various sources listed here as reference materials and gleen what I can from them as well. Lastly, what I find most astonding is just how dense and one track the human mind can be no matter how hard one may try to train oneself to the contary. Why, of all people, given my professional background, does it surprise me to discover - click as the light bulb comes on - that an artist work can be just as revealing about the underlying inner self as can speach patterns, style of handwriting, syntaxs, etc. Duh! The eyes are indeed the windows to the soul, but somethings we forget that they can look out as well as within. Cheers, Rob

Rob, The following comments are for full images, and not spot-illustrations. My best known work is a watercolor of a woman knitting a stream. She is entirely absorbed in being creative, an essential part of the World, but removed from it. Various people referred to her as a self-portrait, to which my response was "Huh? I don't have red hair!" They saw more clearly than I did. Shy! Yup. Portraits are more than skin. If someone sees himself as a teddybear or as an eagle, even gender and species don't matter. To the books above, add Frazetta. He has very strong dynamics, and a thorough understanding of color and contrast. Some notes about composition. Old books will tell you to divide the space into sections: thirds or fifths or whatever. Ignore them. That is a great way to do advertising layouts with a fifties look. The human eye goes first to the area or edge with greatest contrast. This can be color or brightness. It will travel around, depending upon the lines and colors in your image, but will keep coming back to that area. Your job is to get the viewer's eye to follow the path(s) you choose and linger where you want it to linger. If there is a story or situation you are revealing (or hiding!), these paths will help convey that information to the viewer. I try to have an area of tension, an area of calmness, and an area of surprise, but not all works have everything. You don't want to bore the viewer, so there should be some contrast or dynamic. Any busy scene needs a place to rest the eyes (especially if color contrasts predominate). A bit of surprise or the unexpected will linger with the viewer and niggle at him, so that a work is unforgettable. Regards, Carolly

Thanks again Carolly. You have always given me such great advise, going back to my Smaug picture. Without it, I might never have gotten that one done.

Rob, All we can do is continue to learn, and continue to pass that on to others. Otherwise, we'd still be living in caves and howling at eclipses. When I pull stuff out of the closet and shudder, there is still the acknowledgement that I've improved since then... mostly thanks to other people. You've got the eye (from comments made on another picture). Perhaps pulling back from an image so that it is not so close to creation will let you see it fresh? It also sounds like you need a hug, but may be too shy to ask for one. {hug} Take care, Carolly

Thanks Carolly (sorry for being so slow to reply, just got back in town) Hugs - and kisses too - are always nice. :o)