Just thought you'd want to know... :)

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

What..... you mean his "poser book" didnt transform you
into a poser God??

(Snicker) :)

Apparently VirtualSite is familiar with Mortier's work...;

I knew that this would provoke a good laugh... You know, it's amazing how this guy continues to have a career as a writer... I mean, I'm sure he's good at writing beginner's books, but not intermediate... That area he should stay out of... Now why couldn't Peter Sharpe or somebody like that come out with a Bryce 5 book??

One of these days he might figure out that weird combinations and strange deformations do not great art make, and that after four years maybe its time to come up with something new. Only thing I can figure is, he must be on very intimate relations with the publishers. A Bryce 5 book? Susan Kitchens, hands down.

Oh yeah, Susan Kitchens is great, but hers is more of a reference book.. We need somebody, somebody good and great to put out a bryce 5 books with just great techniques to do, and effects.. Nobody has put that out.. By Nobody I mean, somebody that is good at Bryce... Taht's why I mentioned somebody like Peter Sharpe...

"Oh yeah, Susan Kitchens is great, but hers is more of a reference book.. We need somebody, somebody good and great..." Huh? Have you actually read her Bryce 4 book or looked at her work? Her book is very heavy on technique and goes way beyond the manual. If she isn't great with Bryce then all the rest of us might just as well give up right now...

Yeah, but it's a reference book dude... :) For instance, there are books out there like the Photoshop Wow book that shows all kinds of techniques and effects page after page... That not what the Kitchens book is about, which is a great book... We need a book like the photoshop book writen by a competent practicioner of bryce, not Shamms... :)

Well... if you say so I guess it must be true for you. Certainly it is not as pretty as the WOW series of books but page for page I have seen few books on any program that pack as much tutorial and technique information as the Real World Bryce books. I have a number of the WOW books. They're not bad but RWB makes them look like light weights. Try reading her superb exposition on the DTE amongst other things. The reference manual is the book that came packed with the program. Susan's books go well beyond that. In fact, it has more than twice as many pages as the Bryce manual and often explains how Bryce really works instead of the way it's supposed to work. Dig through the old posts to see what other people think of her books. The last one was over a year late and people were on the verge of having heart attacks. There was almost a communal orgasm when it was finally published. But you're entitled to your opinion and there is little point to pursuing this. Dude?

Real World Bryce 4 Rules! If only other programs had companion books so thorough and well-written... Poor Poser has only had Sham Mortem books as far as I know, except for the recent Pro Pack book, but that seems to focus more on, surprising, Pro Pack features. I'm not sure how good that one is, but I hope it's not too bad, because I'm pretty sure it's sitting under my christmas tree right now...). Carrara Bible is pretty good, but poor Amapi gets ignored altogether. I don't have Truespace, so I don't know how good the books on that are, but overall, as far as the lower priced programs go, Real World Bryce 4 is top of the heap in my opinion. sigh 4,579,092 books on Max, and not one on Amapi. Rich bastards! Well, maybe we poor folks can get even: we'll just get Sham to write a book on Maya or something...

Susan's book sits right next to my monitor, and is likely my most used textbook ever. If the world needs a "Wow" book for Bryce 5, maybe it isn't a paper book? There is certainy enough talent in this Forum and Bryce Gallery to provide more wow than could ever be accomplished by a single author in fixed, static, paper edition. Many useful tutorials are already scattered about the web, but pages of links do not have much of s "Wow" flavor.

Hey the Susan Kitchens book is the best book... I have it and I have her earlier book as well... I'm just saying we need other books that are more techniques oriented or just plain project oriented.... Certainly that exists for a lot of other programs.. Just not Bryce... And we don't need the Shamms Mortiers of the world writing these other books...

Trad does raise a good point: the benefit of the WOW books is that you get a cookbook-style, "do this then do this to get this effect" series of sequenced directions that show you, step by step, how to do something. Susan, as much as I worship the tire treads of the truck that takes away her garbage every Wednesday, speaks in more over-arching ways that I can see might be a bit intimidating to some users, including the beginning ones.

I'm not familiar with the WOW books, but what you're talking about sounds like a book of Bryce tutorials. Misha has a point, although I personally enjoy books and learn much more snuggled up in bed at night with a book than I ever do reading stuff on the web. But then, you can always just print stuff out. But anyway, I've been thinking about what I'd want out of a new Bryce book, and I've also been thinking about what Misha said about the amount of talent gathered here, and, well, check out the new thread I'm going to start above to see where this is going...

Trad does raise a good point: the benefit of the WOW books is that you get a cookbook-style..." Actually he doesn't make this point at all. You do. Trad said only that the Kitchens book was essentially a reference text and that what we really need is a book with tutorials and techniques. When I browse through my copy I see extensive discussion of both technique and tutorial that covers far more than the product manual. That is the sole point of my disagreement and I said so only to prevent others from gaining a false impression of RWB. As you suggest, the WOW series is certainly far more inviting and visually attractive. I agree with you that this is less intimidating for many. However, a reader's capacity to understand the material s/he is reading was not the point of this discussion. (And no Trad, I am not suggesting you could not understand it.) There is a place for the WOW series and they have their own value. When completed you will have learned a few more things about the program and be able to mimic or ideally, adapt, techniques used by others. But there will still be a lot about the program in question that remains unexplained. By contrast, when you finally finish and understand RBW you pretty well know Bryce inside out. Unlike a reference manual, Kitchens explains both the how and the why of each operation. Ultimately, this makes it far more valuable than a collection of recipes. There is truth in the proverb "Give me a fish and I eat today. Teach me to fish and I eat all my tomorrows." I do not worship Kitchens but I do respect her effort. Perhaps some day someone will do better. But, barring coverage of Bryce versions beyond 4, RWB presents a very, very large goal to exceed. As a side note, the one thing that always disturbs me about such discussions is that we focus so much upon the program in question. We're always looking for the next book that will magically transform us into gurus of program X. Programs are nothing but tools and our goal should not be simply mastery of them. Our true goal is the work we produce through their use. Why do we not discuss non-computer related books that teach the educated use of colour or composition? Why do we not discuss books that explore society's visual conventions and ways to use them to give our imagery more impact and thus be a more effective means of communication? Maybe then there would not be such an overwhelming image dominance of half naked, absurdly big-breasted women vaguely waving swords at nothing in particular. Not that I object to naked women, but I have the nagging suspicion that there may just be a little more to life and art than that.

Hey Virtual thanks for putting things in a way that Jval could understand, and jval, that's all I meant, not to take anything away from the kitchens books...

"As a side note, the one thing that always disturbs me about such discussions is that we focus so much upon the program in question. We're always looking for the next book that will magically transform us into gurus of program X. Programs are nothing but tools and our goal should not be simply mastery of them. Our true goal is the work we produce through their use." True, but you have to know how to use the tools properly to produce the work. Our artistic visions should not be hampered by a lack of knowledge about whatever programs we use. Creating art in Bryce, or any other program, is a bit different than traditional art in that anyone can use a pencil, or even paints, whereas with computer art if you don't know how to use the program, you can't really do anything. Granted, it takes a great deal of mastery to be GOOD in any medium, but even a child who's never painted before CAN paint. The same can't be said about software. You can pick up a pencil and draw a horse. Maybe not the greatest horse, but you can do it. But modeling a horse in Carrara...? Mastery of the software you use can only improve your art, no matter what you consider art to be.

Actually he doesn't make this point at all. You do. It was the implied point, friend. Anyone familiar with RWB and the WOW books knows this is the inherent difference between the two, stylistically, and you would be hardpressed to say otherwise, sorry. We're always looking for the next book that will magically transform us into gurus of program X If thats your goal, then so be it. But I see books like these as on par with the manuals I have for my truck. If I need to fix the brake line, I want a point by point discussion on how to do so with a minimum of fuss. A book wont make me or anyone else in a "guru" -- Mr. Mortier is certainly a shining example of that -- but if it answers questions I have about how to do something, then its usefullness cant be faulted. Anything else... well, I think most of us know it has to come out of talent. Otherwise, youre just strolling. Now, as to your other point, youll get no argument from me on that score. But this is a Bryce forum, not a theoretical art forum. Thats not to say we should be limiting the scope of the discussions, but lets remember our priorities, okay? If you feel a discussion like that is merited, then start the thread and see who jumps in. But dont fault those who focus the discussion on nuts-and-bolts computer books when that was how the thread started in the first place.

Trad, I never thought you were trashing the Kitchens book and regret if I somehow implied that. My only point was as stated. X2000, no real disagreement from me there. Mind you, one of the often cited benefits of Bryce is that almost anyone can come up with something "reasonable" without knowing much about it. I do think it would be fairer to compare drawing a horse with doing something similar in a simple paint program than modeling one in Carrara. But in essence I agree with the spirit of your comment. Virtualsite, I wasn't faulting books that concentrate on the software. In fact, I agree that this part of my comment is off-topic as you state. After all, I did start by calling it a "side note". I wished only to remind ourselves that there is knowledge and pursuit beyond the software that may greatly benefit our efforts. Surely anything that may improve our work is not a bad thing? Anyhow, this is devolving into a "he said", "she said" affair- not what I intended at all. I probably should have just shut up and will now do so. Even if we should disagree, I trust we will all have a very wonderful Christmas (or equivalent thereof for the politically correct.)

So far, the only positive thing I've ever heard about Sham Mortier is that his first name is the truth. I fortunately was able to examine his book on Bryce at a friends before I made what would have been the tragic mistake of putting down real $ for it. The damn thing is not worth the match it would take to light it, & the Sham should be required to reimburse anybody who bought it at least twice whatever they paid. The Kitchens' book however, is exactly the opposite. It is without a doubt the best instruction on how to use a program that I have ever run across.