I decided to start this threat to say something that I don't find I can write to any particular picture. Lately there have been a lot of pictures of the Magic Pink Pony and now there are starting to be rather rude immitations of it. There is complaint about the Poser Hot 20 and derogetory images regarding Legume's work. And I have to ask this: WHY do people lay so much value on what shows up in the Hot 20 and even furthermore WHEN did Renderosity set a standard that only certain pictures could be posted that some people feel the need to RUDELY disrespect the work of others? When has it become the norm to slander someone for their view of art?

I guess it boils down to morals and what is deemed appropriate for posting in a particular gallery. I just received word this morning from someone who is a very well accomplished artist that they are no longer posting here at Renderosity due to the flamers and those who don't appreciate what art really is. This debate will go on until the end of time, but the reality is that rules had been set up here about posting and some have pushed the limits. It's a shame that it's not enforced, and thusly others get sucked into these discussions and ultimately bad blood is formed. I for one am disappointed and have made my decision to no longer post or view stuff here anymore. There are plenty of other places on the net to post that those who view or post have respect for fellow artisans and appreciate the work being posted/viewed.

I personally don't care about the Hot 20. I go look at it every once in awhile just to see what's in there, but the comments on the images often irritate me. If someone does a lot of postwork I see stuff like "nice postwork" along with some indication that it shouldn't be in the Poser Hot 20 because there is too much postwork. If someone doesn't use a lot of postwork then there are comments to the opposite effect. I think the "Magic Pink Pony" just proves a point about the Hot 20.. just because something is in the Hot 20 doesn't mean it is (or isn't!) great Poser art. It's just a piece that 20 - 40 people really like for whatever reason--controversy, like Legume's latest forays into art, or excellent examples of the latest fads (Vicki in a temple by MnD Productions, or beta testing for nice new armor), or using Poser as a base for digital painting.

Anyway! I would never, ever attack an artist, whether the subject is a Magic Pink Pony or Vicki in a temple. If people don't like the latest MPP Hot 20 craze, they should vote for things they DO like. I for one find the MPP a challenge to try different things with Poser. The BIGGEST challenge I have had in Poser so far was the 3D-cc contest, which challenges people to turn the Poser manniquin into their favorite hero using scenery, textures, props, and so on. I am very proud of my effort, not because it is technically superior or even particularly good, but because it forced me to think about the true essence of something I love and try to emulate that using very basic tools.

Yes but if you check out Legume's "View all the artists work" you will see that he has ONLY done the magic pink pony and nothing else. So let's assume for a minute that this is his limit of Poser expertise, who are we to tell him though that his pictures don't meet the "Artist standards" that where set by us, and what sets our values of his art higher than the value he has placed upon it? I do agree with you that is boils down to morals and appropiate posting in the specified gallery, however it is all rendered in Poser and so therein he isnt violating anything, and since we have not seen any other work from this nick, we can't assume he does better than what previously displayed, or can we?

Legume HASN'T only done the Magic Pink Pony. He has done other work that he has since deleted from his gallery, some of which was very controversial.

LOL well I went by what I just saw and that is all i saw in his gallery, so my apologies if I was wrong.

yes, legume did much more than the pink pony,not quiet the usual stuff other do with poser, but interesting images. And because of some reason,he had to deleted one image. And thats, what started up the whole thing with the pink pony. kieraw: i agree with your thoughts about the hot 20. but in my opion there were groups who voted each other in the hot 20(you vote my image, i vote yours). and how many images were there with little pw??I mean pure poser?? But thats all a never ending dicussion. sorry for my bad english

MY 2 CENTS!!! At least legume uses his imagination, i'm not a fan of the pink pony myself, however sure is a nice break from Vicky boobs and who has the best hair..... Good for him and the top 20 he has a right to post like everyone else and for the guy with the negative pic, attacking a person you most likely don't even know, is a bit immature And if the term "gay" or "flamer" is used again I will personally start a netwide boycott of this place

Check out Legume's work at oother places, like his poser newgroups. [You'll have to get the addy from him - I don't think I have it] He does a pretty broad range of work - some of it bizarre and/or perverse - all of it pretty good.

The Hot 20 is voted by the entire usership of Renderosity. No one can rig it, which is one of the accusations that has been made against Legume and his friends here: they simply exercised their right to vote for the Hot 20 when no one else chose to. If you scroll down, youll see that the more "conventional" Hot 20 pictures have come in with less than 20 votes -- out of Renderositys 70,000+ membership: that alone speaks volumes about just how important the Hot 20 really is. There have been complaints that Legumes work isnt "art", that he just throws this stuff together and then posts it for the laughs. Hes actually said that these things, as naive as they may be, require a great deal of time and effort, because of the nature of things he has to do with some of the imported props. The first two might have been throwaways, but if you look at the progression, theyve become more involved and more structured as "art". There have been accusations that Legumes work is "violating the integrity of the Hot 20". Thats so laughable as to be dismissed out of hand; you make of it what you will. Sure, Legumes work started as a joke -- and probably continues as one. But the people who are complaining about these pictures are the ones we should be seeing as the "artistic terrorists", as it is they who would demand what is and is not acceptable for the Hot 20 -- and by extension, for Renderosity. If you dont like his pony images in the Hot 20, then I suggest you go through the galleries and find something you like better, and vote for it. See an image or an artist whose work really fires you creatively? Tell us about it, and maybe well vote for that for the Hot 20. But to whine (as some people have done) that Legumes work is "destroying the integrity of the Hot 20" is absurd and should be seen for the hypocricy that it is. Finally, the people who troll his images with insults such as "gay" and the like: Legume could ask to have these comments removed, but hes chosen to let them stand so that everyone who visits his work will see these little jerks for exactly what they are. I applaud him for that. Okay, turning the soapbox over to someone else... =)

"Legume could ask to have these comments removed, but hes chosen to let them stand " Yup. He's had numerous opprotunities to ask for them to be removed when he and I have talked on Icq. I figured if he wasn't going to sweat it, I wouldn't worry about it.

dirk5027's comment makes me wonder- Why the quick action to selectively ban artwork from the gallery, while leaving hateful comments to stay?

I'm so used to reading misogynous and homophobic text that I subconciously filter it out. I was shocked when I looked through Legume's gallery that death threats still stand there. That's not just offensive and irresponsible, to post it and not to remove it, but if I'm not mistaken it's quite illegal to threaten to kill someone in an electronic communication.

Wow - I didn't even know this top 20 setup existed until I saw this thread. Hmm. - I've seen the same flames from gamers over the CLQ ("Champions League for Quake"), which collects gaming stats from servers worldwide, and posts a ranking based on 'em, by game and MOD. It takes a lot of wasted time to rig a best score, something on the order of 20 hours or more in coordination with a lot of buddies (or an intentionally rigged server...) You should really see the flames over each week's stats there - heh. /P

Wow - you guys make me proud to be posting in the same gallery! I don't think it's so much the Pony but rather whats behind it. What I DON'T understand is, why there is so much value put upon the hot 20. I been in it... it didn't change my life, and to be quite honest, while it made me feel good to know that so many people felt to vote for my image, I muchly prefer the "I like your art, because it amakes me feel so and so" and all the "I feel you could do this differently" than a click. I for one don't vote for anyone to be in the Hot 20 as I don't see the point in it. However I do take the time to make comments on pictures that jump out at me for various different reasons. But I'll be damned if I ever put ANYTHING negative about someone else's piece of work - who am I to judge what looks right or wrong to the artist?

"You should really see the flames over each week's stats there - heh." Heh heh. I have. ;] I've seen similar disputes over Tachyon Basewars... hell, I learned "the art of flamewar" on the various gaming boards. Btw... does Thresh still play, or is he retired completely now?

Heh - had to bail for a sec - Anyrate, I figure to each his/her/it's own... if pink ponies float your boat, vote away. One thing I would like to see changed though, is this: Perhaps the top 20 could be the top 20 artists, each image being from a different artist? /P

I think Thresh is pretty much retired. He used to get paid real well to play, but with the dot-com bust I doubt any company (gaming or not) really has that kind of cash to spare.

Uh... so the magic pink pony is the topic on this side of R'osity too? sigh

Eowyn not so much the pony as the disrespect some people seem to show fellow artists..

Nah. Penguinisto and I are talking about IMPORTANT stuff - gaming stats and kill ratios. ;] Yeah... that's what I gathered. He still does the occassional column and review at Firing Squad, but I haven't seen him in the forums there in a long while [on the rare occassion I drop in]. PC games in general are taking a downswing also... so are all the gaming boards that used to be prevalent.

well if not here, where SHOULD i have posted my concerns?

LOL Cookie I can barely find my way in here, much less around here LOL! - Mel

(Heh - if THAT title doesn't get it moved to C&D... :) Yeah IB, I noticed that too. A lot of the gaming forums have either died, went underground (like the WF forum I still hang out in), or have gotten so dog-slow that it isn't worth the bother. Also, I have gotten WAY burned-out on FPS gaming... building maps and models for 'em was fun, but it seems to me like the Doom generation has had it's day. I played a little WFAlast night, but even it has gone downhill in my estimation, and most players are more interested in laming a server than in playing the game itself. Lord knows it's not the game itself - the graphics and gameplay alone are mind-blowing. However, it seems as if all the adults have left the game or something... (and no, I don't play EverCrack or CS :) sigh - I dunno; I've been addicted to FPS games since Doom, and the nature of the players has changed immensely... I'm just glad I decided to go into 3D art mroe than gaming these days... /P

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh! Not EverCrack! God, I wasted 2 YEARS of my life on that game. To quit I had to uninstall it and scratch my install media. :)

Yeah... I agree. Actually, the 3D art was one of the main reasons I got into 3D shooters origionally. I loved doing mods and level design and textures for a long time. Still do, sometimes... but I play at it more than I work at it now. Too bad - level design can do a lot to make 3D graphics come alive... Nature of the players has changed a lot. I did mostly space shooters and racing games online, and most of those are dying off also. Firing Squad seems to be the only major games forum left, and I think that's because it's a broadbased site, rather than a forum only house organ site like Planet GeForce or 3DFxgamers.co was. And the last time I browsed Firing Squads forums, they seemed pretty dead except for the "whts on ur mind dude?" crowd. ;]

Personaly..i don't understand the whole..lets put the pink pony in the top 20. I feel anyone can get to the top 20..and it gives them the feeling that they are doing good work..which everyone wants to feel....anyones says differently they are not being very truthful. I see things as..if you don't like whats posted in the gallery or top 20....don't look at it. If you don't like what is a new "fad" make ur own...but don't try to over take someone elses....everyone likes something different...if its a pink pony..ok...if its vikky in a temple...ok.....but don't put down on what people like to do. I personally love to use vikky in a temple for an example...because i like the fantasy of it all....puts my head in the place....who has the right to say that its wrong.......ok..think this got alil off this subject..but..throwing my two cents in.

Legume has become the Andy Warhol of the Poser world! Long live Legume! The pink pony thing is a riot. i'm not surprised that those pictures elicited the weird variety of comments that they did, and getting it into the Hot 20 is a wonderful piece of irony. It's hugely amusing to see these wonders right alongside Elusion's classic painting remakes and the Poser Babes o' the Week. If Legume isn't too bothered by the comments, why should we be? Fishing for wacked comments could get to be a devilishly entertaining pastime, if one were in a puckish frame of mind. :^D

I enjoyed the Magic Pink Pony. I don't think, though, it's yet time to break out the comparisons to Andy Warhol.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=131910

seems to me..the only reason the piny pony was even brought into this world.....was to get att. which it has...and it has made such a mess of the poser gallery...that its not funny...the reason people do not like the "piny pony" is due to that fact. If it was him putting his work there...that would be different. but it was the "whole" reason behind the whole works.....i've been watching the c and d forum..and no one can say that i'm wrong..because u can read message in the forum.....how a piny pony got thought of...passes me...my last two cents.

Intended or not, the whole pink pony series has perfectly captured the thoughts of those of us who stopped viewing the gallery.

Even if it was meant to get attention, or to "mess up" the top 20, or whatever, what it has also done is make very cutting statements on the "what is art?" wars we see here.

The perfect irony, though, is that most of the criticism it draws is evidence of the critic's hypocrisy. If art is truly in the eye of the beholder, which is a justification for the prolific pin-up models (some people think it's pretty so it's art), then the pink pony must be immune from criticism. The juxtapostion of the childish pink pony to the usual soft porn here is priceless.

While, from what I know, I'm not sure I would credit the artist for seeing quite the impact of the pink pony, and while I haven't really appreciated his non-piny pony work, I have to admit that the pink pony is, for me, right on target.

It must be on target with the usual audience here. It's not a crucifix dipped in urine or cereal cartoon characters at the Last Supper, but a mere Pink Pony, inoffensive except within the context it is placed, has drawn about the same level of ire here as the latter two pieces of art drew among religious communities.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=544985

http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=544985

Jim: i am ROFLMAO! This is truly fine! Our own Render War! Bjbrown: in regards to Warhol--well, yeah, i agree. But consider the religious aspects of Renderosity! --N fervent Renderist ;^)

"and it has made such a mess of the poser gallery" How? The gallery looks the same to me as it always has.

i'm not going to debate with anyone about anything....i don't want to give anyone the feeling they have done any good to the put down the poser gallery....but if u do post there often..etc...u'll know what i'm talking about. :O)

OOH, this is all so weird. I can't even find any Poser Top 20 in the gallery. I saw a chance to vote for it when I look at every picture. I don't care about numerical rankings. I don't care if I make the Top 20. Why would I? I can't even find the Top 20. Why do they apparently hide it if this is such a hot place?! I don't give numerical ranks for any pictures I view. I don't ask for them on my current pictures. The best reviews of my art are the kind words of my friends. Why waste energy on the Top 20 and pinky ponies?!

Way to go, nfredman! While I know Jim Burton's been around long enough to know the whole long poser forum saga (you could almost call it a trilogy), for those who have not, rest assured that Legume is making a few rhetorical points with the Pony. I don't know him personally, but have read enough of his posts and seen enough of his work over the years to know that he's not sweating the comments...he's probably enjoying them immensely. I don't know if Legume is Warhol, but he may be Cristo! Or Malkovich (you know, the puppeteering Malkovich). Or just plain Dada. And all of the Pony pieces that I have seen, pro and con, have tended to crack me up. And at the end of a workday, there are far worse things in the world.

Top 20/Doc Legume/Magic Pink Pony....What a combo! Doc set out to make a statement with his MPP postings...and as usual when Doc sets out to make a statement, he draws attention. If I understand the whole thing correctly what started this was a flame war that raged recently on our newsgroup (alt.binaries.3d.poser)...wherein Legume was lambasted not for a graphic but for the title of a graphic he posted that was not even seen by the instigator of the flame. My ISP did not pick up the graphic either so I have nothing to say about. The popularity of the Magic Pink Pony, and his newest creation Mr. Flutters (a happy go lucky - live among the flowers bunny)...has made the statement he was shooting for. No matter opinions about the man, and regardless of how tasteless his art might be considered at times...there is usually a strong statement being made for or against some human travesty or misconceived idea of what some wrongly consider 'politically correct'. Give 'em hell, Doc.

Just wanted to toss this in: I not only don't mind the negative comments on my work, I TREASURE THEM. And for those of you enjoying them, "Thanks!". I got a whole lotta mo'.